From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Dec 26 03:27:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA17632 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 03:27:37 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id BAA05715 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 01:26:26 -0600 Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 01:26:26 -0600 Message-Id: <199912260726.BAA05715@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1473 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, December 26 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1473 In this digest: Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) IN> Khalid Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine IN> Khalid and Religion IN> Khalid and Religion IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors IN> RL Beliefs, Paganism, and perspectives IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine IN> Scientism, Atheism, and In Nomine IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible Re: IN> Christmas RE: IN> RL Beliefs, Paganism, and perspectives Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Khalid and Religion Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) Re: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine Re: IN> Christmas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 18:53:56 -0600 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) >I severely disliked the entire set of attunements and so forth for >Khalid. He was too biased to be an Archangel of any sort, and the >way he was written was horrible. The Angels of Faith should be >operating throughout the world, for faith exists in the hearts of >everyone from Khalid's devout Muslims to the Catholic minister to >the average joe who just knows there is a God somewhere. I wasn't a big fan of Khalid at first either but then... Khalid is one of the superiors up for playtest in Superiors 3 right now on Pyramid. I think it's a much better version than the FT Khalid. He's gone through the events in FT and emerged much more stable and somewhat less biased. His attunements, rites, and bonuses for summoning are less centered on Islam. While he still is biased toward Islam, it's not as bad as he was. I heartily recommend that you s u b s c r i b e to Pyramid if you aren't, and check out the playtest material on him(and Gabriel, and Yves, and Blandine). I still agree that an Elohim shouldn't be biased toward one faith or the other(unless you run a game where one faith is the absolute correct one) but as AA of Faith, I can see an Elohim fitting in pretty well(plus it helps out the balance of AA's, Jean is the only other Elohim) as an Elohim he can take an objective view of all faiths and shouldn't focus in on one particular faith. I could see him better as other choirs(I'd think Mercurian...or Seraph), but I can live with him as an Elohim. Ben Chism ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 19:08:03 -0600 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) >Basically, IN was not made by and for Christians. Oh boy, you hit it on the head here...from what I've seen of INS/MV (the original French game) It was a pretty big satire of Christianity in general and Catholicisim in particular. While I am a Christian, I have no problem with others beliefs(I don't push my beliefs on others and don't expect them to push theirs on me...), and I like the fact that IN hasn't taken the view that Christianity is the RIGHT way in the game. It would detract from not only the audiance, but the game as well. I like the fact that there is CDaU in the game, and hope they don't break with that. >Now, to ensure that this is on-topic and so as not to delurk with >something resembling a flame, how does IN lend itself to atheism? >Is itinteresting to play an atheist character? Is it possible to play an >atheist angel? (Certainly Outcast in a low-contrast campaign, and >watched by Judgement even in a high-contrast one.) hmm...an athiest angel would be pretty hard work in a regular canon game, but it might work if you played a dark, low-contrast game(maybe the God is Dead option in the GMG). For an athiest demon it would be a lot easier, after all the aren't supposed to be serving God they are looking out for #1 and trying to keep their DP happy(or whaterver...). I wanna say that the GMG or the IPG has the statement that most demons "belive that God is, and he's a bastard" but I'm sure there are plenty of demons who would fall in the atheist catagory(or at least the God is Dead one). Ben Chism ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 19:20:18 -0600 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> Christmas >Personally, I think Christmas is run by the demons. Today's Santa created by >Nybbas and Mammon. And you know Kobal has to love the fact that this >so-called Christian holiday is composed of largely pagan rituals. Evergreen >tree, mistletoe, etc. Oh yeah, today's Santa is defiantly Mammon creation, with lots of support from Nybbas. Speaking of pagan rituals mixed with Christian holidays, think about Easter...hiding eggs, the Easter Bunny, plus it falls right around the begining of spring. Like the GMG said(and I paraphrase), Valfor loves that Christianity managed to steal lots of essence from paganism by "Christianizing" their holidays. Many of the "Christian" holidays are based on days of former pagan celebrations. OTOH, I'm not gonna knock any holiday where I get presents. >PS Ask any 10 kids who they think of when they think of Christmas. What do >you want to bet they don't say Jesus? Heck I'd be surprised if you asked 10 adults what they think of when they hear Christmas, and more than one or two said Jesus.... Ben Chism ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 21:37:59 -0500 (EST) From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Christmas OK, just for the heck of it, imagine that Santa is an ethereal. If you like, you could make him a primal spirit, but I think it more likely that he's a relatively new ethereal who has just coalesced in the last 50 years or so (the modern version of Santa, with the red suit and the beard, is surprisingly recent). Santa might be young, but already he's more powerful than most ethereals; all those storefront Santas and Christmas specials and childrens' letters to the North Pole are generating a *lot* of Essence. He's probably got a Tether or two up and running already. Now, Santa's creation was a diabolical plot by (Nybbas? Kobal? Mammon?) to damage the underlying Christian holiday. But Santa himself isn't malevolent -- he hasn't allied with Beleth... yet. His basic nature is generous, diligent, and kindly. OTOH, he wants to survive... Heaven may have killed one Santa already, only to find that the character is so deeply rooted that another ethereal spirit quickly grows into the empty space. So some of the more moderate AAs might be willing to cut a deal (Marc, Novalis). But the more martial ones want no truce with ethereals, and Dominic and Laurence particularly dislike the "old elf's" perversion of the Christian feast. Meanwhile Hell is placing increasing pressure on Santa to swear fealty -- bribes and threats both (I'm imagining a severed reindeer's head in someone's bed...) So, the PCs are tasked to accompany (or be part of) a diplomatic mission to the North Pole; the exact nature of the mission to be determined by Superior, but it could be anything from assassination to swapping gifts to delivery of an ultimatum. When they arrive (it's in the Marches, of course), they find a rival party is there, too... Thoughts? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 03:59:40 GMT From: "Trey Reilly" Subject: Re: IN> Christmas >Thoughts? Lol! Very cute. I'm reminded of one of Terry Pratchett's latest--Hogfather. It's all about what happens when someone kills Santa, and about the ideas that are rooted in the people's unconscious. Pratchett in general (especially in _Small Gods_) had some great ideas for Pagan Gods who subsist on humanity's belief in them. - --Trey not a shiny happy Christmas elf, no matter what anyone says ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 22:58:52 -0500 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) Greg Bilbruck wrote: > > Since I became a Christian 4 years ago, I wanted to learn more about God's > plan for us. One of the things that I did was study archaic Greek (so that I > could read the New Testaments in their oldest forms... Greek). Great idea. Has anyone done a new translation of the Bible from the Greek? I'd love to see how that would compare to the other translations. > So... faith implies belief in God coupled with confidence in God's divine > providence. This is pretty much how I define it in my (mutated) Chill campaign. Several of my PC's have experienced proof that God exists. One was an atheist before, and claims to be a believer now. Another character is devoutly religious. Both believe, but only one trusts God. Consequently, the "believer" isn't much use in the warding off vampires bit, while the faithful *is*, because he (literally) puts himself in God's hands, and allows himself to become a conduit for the Divine presence (I'm agnostic BTW). Merry Christmas, Doctor TOC - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 23:24:01 -0400 (EDT) From: dweaver1@ic3.ithaca.edu Subject: Re: IN> Christmas On Sat, 25 Dec 1999 BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > Personally, I think Christmas is run by the demons. Today's Santa created by > Nybbas and Mammon. And you know Kobal has to love the fact that this > so-called Christian holiday is composed of largely pagan rituals. Evergreen > tree, mistletoe, etc. > > Reverend Brian > > PS Ask any 10 kids who they think of when they think of Christmas. What do > you want to bet they don't say Jesus? > > PPS Merry Christmas, Everybody! > Not to be a bitch, but every time somebody writes off a good institution like the idea of Christmas, the world slides that much closer to the worldly Pit and the metaphysical Pit if you like it as well. Christmas has been sorely commercialized and beaten about the head and shoulders with insinuations that you need to buy, buy, buy or else your relatives will hate you and you'll be damned for all eternity. Before today I was feeling pretty down on Christmas, but then I went to church (Catholic) and, well, I got lifted a bit. The songs and the light from the stained glass windows helped but a big part was the Gospel reading from the excessively cool opening of John. "In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." Though the light grows dim it still exists, I think. A person of any belief can attest to the good that glimmers among the darkness of the greed and materialism of what's both the biggest shopping season of the year and the start of the electoral process in these United States of Avarice. Jesus was a poor backwoods preacher who was born out of wedlock to an unwed teenage mother. He preached that high political and economic standing meant nothing if you were a rotten person, and his recorded teachings are full of protests against the organized state and religion. He was arrested by the state police and sentenced to death on trumped-up charges, refused all pretense at a prideful, miraculous escape from death, and died heckled and condemned. This is the Jesus so many forget - an ordinary man with an interesting message about how being nice to each other was better than scrambling after money, the guy who chased the bankers out of the temple. So if you're angered by the claims of Godliness so prevalent in American society, think about the circumstances of Jesus' life and how disgusted he would have been with those claims had he been around to hear them. Even if you're not Christian it might help to know that Jesus is still on your side. :) Merry Christmas. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:26:11 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Christmas this reminds me of something..."A Very Nybbas Christmas" in Pyramid..only $15 a year, makes a great present (gotta plug, it's one Hell of a magazine) - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" in service to Nybbas for a day. ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF - -----Original Message----- From: BillionSix@aol.com To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Saturday, December 25, 1999 12:23 AM Subject: Re: IN> Christmas >Personally, I think Christmas is run by the demons. Today's Santa created by >Nybbas and Mammon. And you know Kobal has to love the fact that this >so-called Christian holiday is composed of largely pagan rituals. Evergreen >tree, mistletoe, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 23:33:31 -0400 (EDT) From: dweaver1@ic3.ithaca.edu Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) > > In In Nomine, athiesm is wrong (unless you are playing a fairly divergant > game). The belief is in untrue things (because there is a God), and so a > belief in athiesm is not faith. > Well, the vast majority of IN humanity has never had and will never had direct proof of the existence of God and Lucifer until they die and poof! St. Peter is giving them the once-over. People can fulfill their Destiny or Fate regardless of their denominations, so I figure a little mistake like atheism can be forgiven if somebody was a big help down on Earth. IMHO having an Archangel of Faith who's so devoutly pro-one-religion is a bad idea. Dan P.S. In IN, who's in charge of admissions to Heaven? Is Peter stationed out there or is it somebody else? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 00:05:06 -0500 (EST) From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Khalid > IMHO having an Archangel of Faith who's so devoutly pro-one-religion is a > bad idea. Oh, yes, definitely. In _Final Trumpet_, Khalid is very close to Falling, and it's made clear that this is connected to his excessive focus on Islam as the one True Faith (though causality is left to the GM's discretion... is he in danger of Falling from misinterpreting his Word, or is he getting it dangerously wrong because he's so badly off center?) So, yah, it's clear that being too focused on one religion *is* bad -- at least, if one has a Word like Khalid's. (Mild spoilers for Final Trumpet) yadda yadda In canon, Khalid does not fall; he has a near-miss, but then steps back from the edge andis transformed, his faith renewed. However, FT makes it clear that it's a *very* near miss; it gives an alternate, Fallen Khalid, who has become the Prince of Fanaticism. > P.S. In IN, who's in charge of admissions to Heaven? Is Peter stationed > out there or is it somebody else? There's a Seraph at the gate IIRC. Peter handles Christians. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 00:08:04 -0500 From: Adam Thomas Gieseler Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) The "kill one of the faithless" rite is not a "kill an atheist" rite. It's specified in the playtest material that a faithless person is one who has no faith in any system of values whatsoever--excepting the vast majority of atheists. I'll admit that a disproportionate number of the "faithless" are atheists, but it's easy to realize when you think about it that the vast majority of atheists have faith, be it in reason or their own will. At first, upon seeing the rite, I was offended by it. I thought that it was indefensibly wrong to advocate killing those who we disagree with. Then I realized two things. First, I most certainly would not be counted as faithless because I believe that there is a such thing as a moral good. Second, killing people without faith so they'll be reincarnated is an efficient Elohite manner of promoting Faith. Khalid would be dissonant if he specifically advocated killing over inspiring, but he doesn't unless you play Near-Outcast Khalid. Jihad might be considered objectively better if it better affirms the faith of the killer, and Khalid believes that it does. Upon seeing the playtest material, which puts Khalid's position coherently, I understood his position and reconsidered my belief that the Rite was wrong; it is based on wrong assumptions but a good will, and is thus right. (Or so I believe; my father and I have just had a debate on the subject, he holding that the right thing is to take the actions that lead to the best effects. Darn utilitarian.) Is this on-topic? I think that it is, but I can tell that it's borderline. It seems to me that philosophical discussion is emphatically on-topic for IN, but I can see the opposing position. Adam Gieseler, atheist ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 23:24:49 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine >>>Well, very few. Rapine might be acceptable if used against someone who> deserved it.<<< Even with an "eye for an eye" code of justice, I find it hard to imagine rapine being used positively, since it entails not simply abusing someone, but doing so for one's own selfish desires. > ...so there might be a rapine-tether or two still out there? What was the> most traumatic act of rapine before 793 AD? Sack of Rome? Something by> the Huns or Assyrians?<<< As pointed out in the Liber Castellorum, the most powerful Tethers aren't always the most famous/historical ones. A single act of rape unrecorded by history might create a Tether where the Rape of Nanking may not have. > Someone remind me what canon says about this bad boy. Is he definitely> dead? Or, like Gebbeleth and Magog, might he still be out there in some> form? Canonically, Valefor replaced Genubath in 793 A.D. Genubath hasn't been seen since, and is presumed dead, but no one knows the details. > Note that Genubath's Word overlaps a bit with Magog's... when did Magog> fall? 859 B.C. > I misdoubt me about the Lilim, though. Surely they'd have trouble > reconciling their natures with service to this Word? A bad bargain is one> thing, taking by force another. Lilim don't have any trouble reconciling their natures with any other diabolical Word, why this one? Now, they might have trouble with serving Genubath personally, for the same reason that Magog and Saminga aren't likely to recruit many Lilim. I was considering another option for the Lilim of Rapine attunement: "Lilim of Rapine sneer at the notion of a "fair exchange." They may extract Geases 1 level higher than normal for doing a favor. (No single Geas may be higher than level 6, however, and earning a hook requires fulfilling at least a level 1 need.)" >>>The Impudite, not... giving up the> charm is giving up too much. IMC Impudites use their charm much more than> their essence-draining shtick. Possibly because draining Essence is so difficult. I thoroughly disagree that giving Impudites the ability to suck Essence out of people virtually at will isn't powerful enough. > Bit too close to their Rite though, ennit? It's sort of a greatly expanded version of their Rite, infinitely repeatable. > Eeew again... hmm, I think I may have an NPC in mind. Frankly, I think I'd shy away from anyone who actually wanted to *play* a demon of Rapine. > Is there any way to canonize these? When/if Genubath is being written up officially, I'll certainly be tossing my hat in. ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 23:28:57 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Khalid and Religion >>>First thing I did when I saw Khalid's write-up was swear to completely rewrite him, perhaps as a Seraph or Malakite.<<< I protested bitterly when I first saw the writeup of Khalid. The Archangel of Faith should *obviously* be a Malakite. But he was made an Elohite because "there aren't enough Elohite Archangels." In my revision of Khalid (now being playtested for the Superiors 3 book on Pyramid), I couldn't change his Choir, though I did suggest alternate versions, including making him a Malakite Archangel. I also preserved his bias toward Islam, but made it not quite so extreme. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 23:31:08 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Khalid and Religion >>>Of course faith is just another word for belief (Unless my dictionary/thesaurus is wrong). I am an athiest, I belive there is no God therefore I have faith that there is no God. Khalid should be able to stomach an athiest.<<< Nope -- as described in his expanded writeup, not all faith is good faith. A devil-worshipper might have faith in Satan, but that doesn't mean Khalid will approve. (Also, your definition of atheism is not universal. I do not believe in God, but that's not quite the same as saying I have faith there is no God.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 23:35:35 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors >>>Douglas Muir wrote: > >Question for all you GMs: which bands/choirs/Servitors do you >find most difficult to run, or to have active around your PCs?<<< Mercurians can be a pain in the butt, especially when they get a high check digit. You have to come up with all kinds of detailed information about an NPC you might not have thought much about. Shedim, as others have pointed out, are incredibly difficult foes -- especially if they get into one of your friends. Destroying them is next to impossible, and just putting them in Trauma is usually not feasible (unless you're extremely bloodthirsty and can get away with killing innocent mortals). Habbalah probably win in terms of having the resonance most likely to take a PC totally out of action with one d666 roll. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 23:43:46 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> RL Beliefs, Paganism, and perspectives >>>I am now taking this off-list, as apparently nothing else that was in that post got through.<<< Yeah, you're going "take it off-list" after taking your final shot. How many times have I seen that gambit? I am somewhat notorious for being pitbullish when people engage me. I DO try not to drag things out unnecessarily, believe it or not, but what usually incites me to keep arguing when others would like me to drop it is when someone publically misrepresents what I said, as you do below. >>>I did not attack Christianity<<< I didn't say you did. >>>but in general, though your comment about 'Whiny Pagans' was insulting enough. *Any* comment that characterizes all members of *any* religion in a particular manner is bigoted and rude.<<< I did not characterize all pagans in any manner. I said that I have gotten flack from whiny pagans. That doesn't mean I think that all pagans are whiny. Only the ones who give me flack. If you want to drop it, then drop it. Don't lob more fireballs while claiming to drop it. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 23:51:18 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine >>>The only sticky spot is the question of what's 'reasonable' and 'feasible', really. After all, 95% of the time, a demon can definitely overpower a human, or even a small group of them, in some way - or outrun them or otherwise get away from them.<<< Though it may sound like a copout, the basic answer is, as usual, "GM's discretion." It depends a lot on your campaign -- brightness level, intervention rules, celestial frequency, and so on. In a campaign where celestials are very rare, where celestial intervention is relatively commonplace, and/or in a very dark or very satirical campaign, I'd say yes, if a demon of Rapine wants a car, he should go jump the owner. OTOH, if angels are relatively common (common enough that making a disturbance in a city has a reasonable change of alerting one), or if Asmodeus is vigilant about cracking down on Symphonic disturbances, or in a brighter and/or more serious campaign, the demon might only be required to take things he *really* wants (not just whatever catches his fancy at any given time), and only when it's reasonably "safe" to do so. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 00:05:07 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Scientism, Atheism, and In Nomine I DO think a certain amount of philosophical/theological discussion *is* appropriate to In Nomine, and so I am answering on the list. Anyone who thinks the only things that belong on the list are writeups of new Superiors and discussions of supplements can delete this message. >>>I disagree. The dominant paradigm of science says that "that which is beyond reason"--spirits, magic, and souls--do not exist.<< This has two parts: first, that these things transcend reason; second, that whatever transcends reason does not exist. The second is endorsed by science, and the first is held by enough scientists as to be part of the dominant belief structure of science.<<< You're not correct. There are a number of scientists who have no difficulty reconciling faith in God and other admittedly unprovable things with science. (Reconciling, say, a literal belief in the Biblical creation story with science is another matter.) Science does NOT say "That which is beyond reason doesn't exist." It says "That which is beyond reason is beyond the ability of the scientific method to test." (Individual scientists may follow the first statement, but that's not part of the scientific method, to declare anything it can't detect or test to be non-existent.) >>>I'd like to know, off-list, on what you base the assertion that there is no ideology of "scientism.<<< OK, I put that badly. There IS an ideology that one might call "scientism," but it's hardly a formal one. It's generally agreed that "scientism" means treating science as holding the keys to all answers about the universe. But as I point out above, that doesn't mean it's impossible to believe in the validity and ascendancy of science, and yet still believe in things that are outside the domain of science. >>>Now, to ensure that this is on-topic and so as not to delurk with something resembling a flame, how does IN lend itself to atheism? Is it interesting to play an atheist character? Is it possible to play an atheist angel? (Certainly Outcast in a low-contrast campaign, and watched by Judgement even in a high-contrast one.)<<< In my expanded writeup of Khalid, the adventure seed involves trying to instill religious faith in an atheist, who is found to be extremely faithful despite his lack of belief in God or the supernatural. It's certainly possible to play an atheist in In Nomine. The problem is that unless you're playing a very strange variant, atheists are simply *wrong* in In Nomine, which means an atheist PC is automatically following a demonstrably false belief system. Either he's going to have to come to terms with the gap between what he believes and what the truth is, or else it may be difficult to fit him into a non-atheist group of celestials, Soldiers of God, and the like. (Now, I can think of a number of ways that a "Soldier of God" could actually be an atheist...but none of them are particularly simple to arrange.) An angel *could* be an atheist, but it probably would result in Falling. Demons can more easily be atheists. (In fact, somewhere is my writeup of the Demon of Atheism.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 00:26:01 -0600 From: "Greg Bilbruck" Subject: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible > Great idea. Has anyone done a new translation of the Bible > from the Greek? I'd love to see how that would compare to the other > translations. > I prefer the New International Version (NIV) of the Bible. An excerpt from the NIV preface: "The NIV is a completely new translation of the Holy Bible made by over a hundred scholars working directly from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. ... Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by imperfect man, this one undoubtedly falls short of its goals. Yet we are grateful to God for the extent to which he has enabled us to realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our colleagues to complete our task. ..." I like the NIV because: * it is written in contemporary English (no thee's and thou's and doest's) * it is denomination-neutral (some translations are used in only one denomination... not the NIV) * it was translated from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts (not English versions) * it is a translation, not an interpretation (in other words, literary symbolism is left untouched... you get to interpret the parables and verbal imagery for yourself.) My favorite Bible for new Christians is the "Life Application Bible, New International Version" (by Zondervan publishers). Some notable features: * book notes (showing outline of book, author, audience, environment, etc.) * character sketches (biographical notes on key Biblical figures) * color maps * scripture notes on each page (some pages are 50% Biblical text and 50% notes) * cross-references to supporting passages * Biblical and historical timelines * alternative translations (if the NIV translation team had differing opinions about how a phrase should have been translated, the translation that "won" the vote is printed in the main text and the translations that "lost" the vote are included as notes... this is great... the reader gets to look at all of the opinions of the linguists). * more stuff that I can't think of after midnight Before you delve into the Word of God, please read a book entitled “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth: A Guide to Understanding the Bible”. I found this book to be invaluable in identifying the misinterpretation pitfalls that a new student of the Bible can fall into. One reviewer of this book wrote: “The Bible has been used and abused in a myriad of ways. Often the worst offenders have been evangelical Christians. The Kingdom of God could be a different place entirely if every Christian would read and APPLY this book. Fee and Stuart, two evangelical believers, have crafted a book that covers at a basic level all the issues related to reading and applying the Bible in one's life, church, and world. Please buy this book, read it, and use it!” “How to Read the Bible…” is available at most Christian bookstores and at many online booksellers. Happy Holidays! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 01:37:27 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Christmas In a message dated 12/25/99 7:19:05 PM Central Standard Time, bwchism@network-one.com writes: << Oh yeah, today's Santa is defiantly Mammon creation, with lots of support from Nybbas. Speaking of pagan rituals mixed with Christian holidays, think about Easter...hiding eggs, the Easter Bunny, plus it falls right around the begining of spring. Like the GMG said(and I paraphrase), Valfor loves that Christianity managed to steal lots of essence from paganism by "Christianizing" their holidays. Many of the "Christian" holidays are based on days of former pagan celebrations. OTOH, I'm not gonna knock any holiday where I get presents. >> From what I remember, the present version of Santa Claus, the image that most people think of, the jolly fat man, was created for a Coca-Cola ad. I'm not 100% certain of the Truth of that, but I hope it's true. :) Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 00:47:09 -0600 From: "Greg Bilbruck" Subject: RE: IN> RL Beliefs, Paganism, and perspectives > -----Original Message----- > Yeah, you're going "take it off-list" after taking your final shot. How > many times have I seen that gambit? I am somewhat notorious for being > pit bullish when people engage me. > > If you want to drop it, then drop it. Don't lob more fireballs while > claiming to drop it. > > -David David, As a fellow Christian, I am asking you to stop antagonizing the atheists and agnostics on this list. Show the love of Christ in your answers... not impatience (at best) or hatred (at worst). Your tone does not draw these people to your point, it pushes them away. I have been participating in role-playing games for over 19 years and In Nomine is just another game (albeit a GREAT game). If you disagree with a rule, toss it. If you want to add some rules, do it. I love this game! I encourage *all* of the writers to keep up the good work! Drive on, soldiers! Best wishes, Greg Bilbruck Titles: Newbie Christian (since 1995) Old School Agnostic (until 1995) (Wanna hear the story? Email me and I'll send it to you) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 03:06:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Christmas On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > > >From what I remember, the present version of Santa Claus, the image that most > people think of, the jolly fat man, was created for a Coca-Cola ad. I'm not > 100% certain of the Truth of that, but I hope it's true. :) The lovely Urban Legend Busters at www.snopes.com shed some light on this. Coca-Cola helped POPULARIZE this image of Saint Nick, but it was an image that had been around for quite a while - they certainly did not create it. (Sorry!) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! Windows 95/98: A 32-bit patch for a 16-bit GUI shell over an 8-bit operating system written for a 4-bit processor by a 2-bit company who cannot stand 1 bit of competition. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 01:49:32 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Religion In a message dated 12/25/99 11:32:33 PM Central Standard Time, AmadanSJG@compuserve.com writes: << I protested bitterly when I first saw the writeup of Khalid. The Archangel of Faith should *obviously* be a Malakite. But he was made an Elohite because "there aren't enough Elohite Archangels." >> This was BB wasn't it? (Before Beth) That sounds too much like TV executives changing the content of a TV show in stupid ways to please some demographic or another. Reverend B. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 00:11:34 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) >an objective view of all faiths and shouldn't focus in on one particular >faith. I could see him better as other choirs(I'd think Mercurian...or >Seraph), but I can live with him as an Elohim. Seraph is completely inconsistent for an Archangel of Faith. If you know the truth, then you know the truth, and you aren't exhibiting true faith. Elohite is a little better, because you have to possess a rational approach to all religions to be fair to all of 'em. But it still ain't good, since faith is inconsistent with the way Elohim function. They don't base their worldview on subjective opinion (faith), they base it on objective research (reason). Khalid should have been a Kyriotate. After all, he needs a thousand perspectives to be able to support a thousands flavours of faith. >Ben Chism Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 23:18:34 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine On Sat, 25 Dec 1999, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Well, very few. Rapine might be acceptable if used against someone > who> deserved it.<<< > > Even with an "eye for an eye" code of justice, I find it hard to imagine > rapine being used positively, since it entails not simply abusing > someone, but doing so for one's own selfish desires. I recommend the Word of Just Restoration for a Redeemed Genubath. When things are organized *wrongly*, and they won't give back that which they should, it is then that you *take* it and right affairs. This assumes that the "true celestial" translation of Rapine is "Forcible deprivation of others, for selfish purposes." That way, when the Word falls, it has its focus shifted rather than its scope. I doubt enough Word-forces would be left after Redemption to continue in an Archangelic role, but he'd work really well with Mercs of Mike. > "Lilim of Rapine sneer at the notion of a "fair exchange." They may > extract Geases 1 level higher than normal for doing a favor. (No single > Geas may be higher than level 6, however, and earning a hook requires > fulfilling at least a level 1 need.)" I love it. I was actually going to do something like this for Lilim of a Fallen Marc (of Exploitation), but trashed it for one closer to his Malakite attunememt. Damn it, *some* Lilim should be able to do this. They're way too on the level to be proper demons as it stands. };;;) Did anything ever happen with the fruits of that "Other Side" fad a few months back? > When/if Genubath is being written up officially, I'll certainly be > tossing my hat in. ;) *loud cheers* Michael Martin "It is no one's privilege to despise another. It is only a hard-won right after long experience." -- Isaac Asimov, "C-Chute" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 00:24:49 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Christmas >if you're not Christian it might help to know that Jesus is still on your >side. :) While I disagree with Christian theology (I think Yeshua was just a disciple of John the Baptist with a little more press), I *do* agree with your post. It's very easy to write Christmas up as a holiday of Hell in the In Nomine world. It's harder to write it up as a Heavenly holiday. But hasn't anyone considered, for just a moment, that Archangel Christopher must *love* this holiday? How many kids get excited around Christmas time? And Novalis must love it, too. After all, even during one of the bloodiest wars of the century (WWI), the fighting stopped and the troops of both sides played soccer because it was Christmas. And imagine all the dreams children experience on Christmas Eve... Blandine has her hands, and dreamscape, full. Dominic and Laurence might approve, despite the commercialization. Christmas has become a secular institution, putting a very small part of Christianity into the lives of millions of agnostics, atheists, and part-time Christians. This advances their religion as much, if not more, as it damages it. Israfel, the Angel of Music, must love Christmas. Christmas songs are very beautiful. I am very much an atheist, but if there is a God, I am convinced that he speaks to us through music. Christmas at Sarejevo is one such song. People get together with their families and relatives on Christmas. They have parties with their coworkers. They have a good time with each other. David might appreciate that in a small way. Marc. That is all that need be said. Gabriel, on the other hand, probably goes a little more insane. Khalid probably dislikes the holiday for it's false expression of faith. (Or likes it; a little faith is better than none at all.) Michael, I imagine, could go either way on the holiday. Yves... who knows what Yves thinks? He started Christianity, and now it's permanently ingrained on non-religious culture. Maybe he approves. Jordi? He probably doesn't care. Eli? Again, he probably doesn't care, except enough to want folks to have a good time on Christmas. He's probably more concerned with making sure New Years goes off well. >Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas to you, too. >Dan Ben ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1473 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.