From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 27 16:13:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23948 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:13:03 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA02253 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:55:46 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:55:46 -0600 Message-Id: <199912272155.PAA02253@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1475 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1475 In this digest: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) IN> Impudite resonance redux IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) RE: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors Re: IN> Impudite resonance redux RE: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors Re: IN> Israfel, Archangel of Music Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Khalid and Religion Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Re: Beliefs in RL IN> Stigmata Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible Re: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Stigmata Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Trapped on Earth Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible IN> Mercurians & Tarot Decks (WAS: Most troublesome. . .) Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Mercurians & Tarot Decks (WAS: Most troublesome. . .) Agnosticism vs. Atheism (was RE: IN> Khalid and Religion) RE: IN> Stigmata IN> Times Square? Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 15:05:35 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) >>>Does Khalid have faith that God exists, or does he *know* God exists, thus precluding the possibility that he could have faith? That would be interesting indeed. It would seem that for Khalid to have the word of Faith, he would have to have no idea whatsovever if God exists or not, and would have to choose to believe that God exists, despite a lack of evidence on way or the other.<<< As an Archangel, he can't help but have more *evidence* than a mortal, or even the average angel, that God exists. But evidence is not the same as proof. Since Khalid was created after the Fall, he has never personally experienced God, and thus can be said to have faith. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 15:15:47 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Impudite resonance redux >>>Well, I thoroughly disagree with your disagreement. Any Imp with a half decent Will can dive into a crowd of humans and slurp up all the Essence he needs in a matter of minutes.<<< We went through this on the list awhile ago. There's some disagreement as to how powerful the Impudite resonance is. Some (including me) feel that as written currently, it's entirely too weak, since an Impudite *has* to be a Will-monster to have much better than a 50% success rate with ordinary mortals (and with a significant percentage of the failures resulting in reverse drains). Taking away the Ethereal Forces + Celestial Forces penalty is effectively giving the Impudite a bonus on his resonance roll ranging from +2 to +12 (!), with an average bonus of +2-3 vs. mortals, and +6 (!) vs. celestials. On a 2D6 scale, that is a VERY hefty bonus. Combined with the fact that they (Impudites of Rapine) only need to make that base roll, and not charm the subject first (which most Impudites must do, at the SAME penalty as described above), and I think your position is hard to defend from a statistical POV. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 15:19:36 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors >>>Ah David you got the one that was possessing Allie to leave without much trouble. All he did was find out all your secrets and plans. :-)<<< Well, *I* wasn't complaining that he was IMPOSSIBLE to defeat and that we were all totally screwed because we couldn't get Jean to fry him. ;) But they are tough little buggers to get rid of. >>>For sheer causing the GM headaches I'd say Kyriotates are the hardest to GM.<<< Heh, guilty as charged. >>>The can easily walk over non-combat situations just by possessing the obstacle. Plus if the party splits up, you've got to wait on the Kyriotate's player to wobble back and forth between both scenes. Otherwise you risk continuity problems.<<< True. But keep in mind that a Shedite PC would be almost as bad. (Maybe not as far as being involved in multiple scenes, but EVERY Shedite can do the same thing that Kyriotates of Destiny can, as far as just hopping into someone and using their memories). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 22:17:38 -0000 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) Regarding Elohim and Faith, it seems to be to be an appropriate Word for an Elohite, because: a) An Elohite would see the benefits of encouraging Faith wherever he finds it, whatever the religion may be. (Which puts Khalid's insistence on Islam in an even worse light, yes, quite.) b) Elohim are required to act for the good of the Symphony, in obedience to their heavenly Superiors, and objectively, without allowing personal considerations to influence their decisions. That _is_ a kind of faith -- they put away their own personal wishes, and obey Heaven's dictates, trusting in those who are in authority over them and closer to God. They _have_ to trust and have faith in their Word or Superior or resonance -- it's when they start deciding that they alone know best and can interpret God's will personally and ... well, you know what happens next, it's tattoo time and Punisher time and it's really very sad. (Oh, and I've just watched _DOGMA_. Mmmmmmm. My players may assume that I have been taking notes.) - --- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 17:35:05 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: RE: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors >Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 19:05:21 -0500 (EST) >From: Douglas Muir >Question for all you GMs: which bands/choirs/Servitors do you find most >difficult to run, or to have active around your PCs? >We all know that Malakim can be difficult, because of their oaths, and Never found that, they may be difficult for the players but not for the GM after all they provide several motivational hooks for you to exploit. >Seraphim, because they can't lie. But I've found that PC Seraphim, when Even more fun for the GM, the problem with seraphim if any is the level 6 on their resonance. >part of a larger group, can usually step back and allow the others to do >the lying for them. Servitors of Revelations, OTOH, can create some real >problems -- their inability to conceal things, or to participate in >concealment, has tangled up the plans of more than one PC party. As a GM I don't see that as a problem. More the players getting themselves into trouble, which saves me having to do it for them. >Similarly, servitors of Flowers, Wind and Theft can cause problems for PCs >that are working with them. The three day rule can cause pain for me on occasions. Flowers servitors stop the PC's getting into unnecessary fights, so we get more roleplaying. >And Servitors of War, while not troublesome Except the Malakim of War attunement which I hate [I have to predict if the players are going to start a fight five minutes in advance of me knowing what they are going to do?] The Current War servitors in my Party seem totally unworried by their dissonance condition. The Malakim is a corporeal combat monster and too thick to worry about loosing and the Lilim seems to favour sniper weapons or car bombs as her primary weapons. In general the informational resonance's [Especially Mercurian, Malakite and Lilim] require more preparation than I can guarantee I'll have before playing. Luckily for me at the moment I only have Malakim and a Lilim from the informers in the group at the moment [no seraphim, no elohim, no mercurians] Ofanim are not much bother, ditto cherubim. Elohim have a inbuilt tendency to be either boring to play or self destruct. Kyriotates need a good player and it is very helpful to have stats for a typical range of hosts in advance. Balseraphim would be a pain but my players are far better at tying them selves up in knots than playing them. In general only the Lilim cause problems among the basic demonic choirs [which was why I was glad to see the list of needs in Libra Serv, but would have preferred examples of them listed for each of the characters in that volume.] Adam Adam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 15:45:09 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors Mercurians and Malakim were both hard for me to handle, at first -- especially since the Mercurian served Yves, and could see the future. Eventually, when they used their resonances, I just answered them simply: "He seems like a decent person. Is there anything in particular you're looking for?" The one that still gets me is Mercurian 3 or 4 -- whichever one requires you to conjure up a name. After having an NPC named Jules Case, it all went downhill. I dislike Malakim (mine especially, one serves Gabriel) because they are too inflexible. I like to play up the enemy as charismatic and appealing, and the Malakim just don't care. Sure, they may like the demon. They're still gonna scrape him off their boots. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:55:56 -0500 (EST) From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Impudite resonance redux On Sun, 26 Dec 1999, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Well, I thoroughly disagree with your disagreement. Any Imp with a half decent Will can dive into a crowd of humans and slurp up all the Essence he needs in a matter of minutes.<<< > > We went through this on the list awhile ago. I know, Dave. I was right in the middle of that discussion, remember? There's some disagreement > as to how powerful the Impudite resonance is. Some (including me) feel > that as written currently, it's entirely too weak, since an Impudite > *has* to be a Will-monster to have much better than a 50% success rate > with ordinary mortals I have gone back and forth with this. It seems that, with a reasonably decent Will (9+) and some clever play, most players can overcome this. (and with a significant percentage of the failures > resulting in reverse drains). ...which Genubath's attunement wouldn't help with, since it's basically a Contest of Wills... > Taking away the Ethereal Forces + Celestial Forces penalty is > effectively giving the Impudite a bonus on his resonance roll ranging > from +2 to +12 (!), with an average bonus of +2-3 vs. mortals, and +6 > (!) vs. celestials. Except that no Imp in his right mind tries resonating an angel (great way to give the angel a free resonance lock), and draining from another demon is a distinctly risky proposition. > On a 2D6 scale, that is a VERY hefty bonus. Combined > with the fact that they (Impudites of Rapine) only need to make that > base roll, and not charm the subject first (which most Impudites must > do, at the SAME penalty as described above), and I think your position > is hard to defend from a statistical POV. Actually, I've already done just that, on this list. Assume that an Imp has access to multiple humans, and can quickly "work a crowd". Further assume that the average human has (ethereal + celestial)3 forces and a Will of 3. Given that an Imp must charm a human, then make another Will roll to drain essence, how many humans would the Imp have to attempt before getting that single point? Well, with a Will of 7, about 40. Could take a while. But with a Will of 8, only about 15 or so. The Imp could just stroll down a street in his neighborhood and chat people up. Note that if he gets close, or can touch them, his odds go _way_ up. Will 9, we're rockin' -- about 6 people. Will 10, 2 or 3; Will 11, 1 or 2; and a Will 12 Impudite could reasonably expect to drain essence from any normal mortal (about a 2/3 chance). So, any Impudite with a decent will can always get essence as long as there are humans around -- he just has to spend a little time walking among them. This attunement upgrades this to an enhanced ability to snitch essence from *particular* victims. I agree that this is handy. I just don't think it's worth giving up the Charm power, which is seriously useful in its own right, not just as a prelude to grabbing Essence. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 17:35:54 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: RE: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors On Sun, 26 Dec 1999, Adam Canning wrote: > Except the Malakim of War attunement which I hate [I have to predict if the > players are going to start a fight five minutes in advance of me knowing > what they are going to do?] I ran it like "Danger Sense" from GURPS: it applied only to conflict they didn't initiate. They'd know if they were about to get jumped, but not if they would be entering a parley that they make degenerate into violence. But then, they know that the other guys are reaching for their weapons in secret, 5 seconds ahead of time. My justification was that the conflict isn't 'sweeping through the Symphony' until their opponents actually make the decision to attack. > Elohim have a inbuilt tendency to be either boring to play or self > destruct. Depends a whole lot on the player. As someone else said on this list... "Objectivity means *never* having to say you're sorry." IMHO they make better "heartless angels" than even the Malakim. > Kyriotates need a good player and it is very helpful to have stats for a > typical range of hosts in advance. Had a Kyrio of Jordi in the one game I ran. Worked out quite well, really. But they're *ultimate* spies. Gave me more headaches than even the Mercurian. I don't have a lot of experience with the Bands, but the usual reservations about Lilim and Shedim apply. Michael Martin "It is no one's privilege to despise another. It is only a hard-won right after long experience." -- Isaac Asimov, "C-Chute" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 00:24:43 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Israfel, Archangel of Music Um... an Archangel who turns her angels into half-demons??? I can't see that giving her any more job security than a narcoleptic airline pilot. Some good ideas, but there's no way in Heaven the Seraphim Council would let her get away with that. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! Any resemblance between the above views and those of my employer, my terminal, or the view out my window are purely coincidental. Any resemblance between the above and my own views is non-deterministic. The question of the existence of views in the absence of anyone to hold them is left as an exercise for the reader. The question of the existence of the reader is left as an exercise for the 2nd god coefficient. A discussion of non-orthogonal, non-integral polytheism is beyond the scope of this message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:30:37 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Christmas >From: dweaver1@ic3.ithaca.edu > Even >if you're not Christian it might help to know that Jesus is still on your >side. :) > It'd be more help if he could pay for the stupid presents I have to give people, even though I totally don't believe in any of it. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:38:45 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Christmas >From: "Ben Glickler" >Israfel, the Angel of Music, must love Christmas. Christmas songs are very >beautiful. Counterpoint. Cliff Richard and the Millenium Prayer. (If you haven't heard it, then you're lucky. He put the words of the Lord's Prayer to the tune of Auld Lang Syne even though it doesn't scan and .. it got to number 1 here for 3 weeks running. People will buy all sorts of trash if it is marketed as a Xmas song) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:21:47 +0100 From: cd skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Religion David Edelstein wrote: >Someone Else wrote: (David, please don't snip the attributions): >> Of course faith is just another word for belief (Unless my >> dictionary/thesaurus is wrong). I am an athiest, I belive there is >> no God therefore I have faith that there is no God. Khalid should >> be able to stomach an athiest. [...] > (Also, your definition of atheism is not universal. I do not believe in > God, but that's not quite the same as saying I have faith there is no > God.) At least as I understand it, the terminology is: "Weak atheist": does not believe in God/god. "Strong atheist": believes there is no God/god. /cd, weak atheist/agnostic - -- "I am usually someone else, though I can sometimes happen to be me. When I'm someone else, that someone comes with his (or her) own friends, some- times enemies, family, occupation etc etc, none of which intersects with mine at all." -- Magnus Itland ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 08:49:52 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitors In a message dated 12/26/99 5:37:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, mcmartin@hkn.EECS.Berkeley.EDU writes: > On Sun, 26 Dec 1999, Adam Canning wrote: > > > Except the Malakim of War attunement which I hate [I have to predict if > the > > players are going to start a fight five minutes in advance of me knowing > > what they are going to do?] > > I ran it like "Danger Sense" from GURPS: it applied only to conflict they > didn't initiate. They'd know if they were about to get jumped, but not if > they would be entering a parley that they make degenerate into violence. > But then, they know that the other guys are reaching for their weapons in > secret, 5 seconds ahead of time. I. on the other hand, ran it like the ability 'Hear Soundtrack' (is that GURPS or TFOS? I never can remember...), complete with Danse Macabre or Ride of the Valkyries. The Malakite of War was run by a 14 year old boy who was *trying* not to be a munchkin. The amusing part was when I started humming Hail to the Cheif and he correctly assumed Michael was on his way. The only choir I had difficulty running was actually a player mismatch: You know you're in trouble as a GM when the Ofanite of Flowers who has a role as a park ranger hears a twenty-point disturbance in his park and says, 'OK, everyone, let's be careful here and move slowly....' Of course I *started* with three Mercurians, two of whom had Yves' attunement, and the Malakite of War. I ended up buying a tarot deck, and showing a random card when the Mercurians resonated on a random NPC. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 09:19:47 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Liam Astley wrote: > teehee. that may be true, but us brits like it when people conform to > stereotype. taking the mickey out of backwards americans is a national > hobby :) Which goes a fair way to explaining the American stereotype of Britons as supercilious snobs... Malphas rules. (Indeed, Malphas must have a whole system of awards and distinctions, or a research department, or an infernal publicity agency, devoted to minting stereotypes.) What, pray tell, does "taking the mickey out" mean? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 09:34:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Beliefs in RL Perry Lloyd wrote: > Hey, Jess, do you remember what Buddhist sect believes in good and > evil spirits? I don't believe its the Zen Buddhists. Isn't there a tale about Maya, a personification of illusion or desire, trying to distract or tempt the Buddha as he sat beneath the bo tree, working his way to Enlightenment? Maya sounds rather like the Devil, and in particular rather like the Devil tempting Christ in the wilderness. Is this tale a late addition to Buddhism? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 08:53:04 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: IN> Stigmata OK, There were all sorts of posts after Dogma (ROTFL) and End of Days (Still have to see) but I don't recall any comments on what I thought was an on-topic movie with a lot of good parts -Stigmata... Were Kiara and I the only people to see it or just see it and like it (And think it had great potential...)?? David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 08:47:01 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible > A good bible for scholars is the New Jerusalem Bible. It does what the NIV > does with regards to original translations, but goes even further. It > includes a few extra books in the Hebrew Scriptures that are dropped in > other versions. Unfortunately, there's no Gospel of Thomas, but you can't > have everything. It's what my college bible class used, at any rate... Give the New Revised Standard Version a try, my son's godfather (and godmother for that matter) is a Unitarian minister and recommends this in the Bible Study Courses he teaches. As stated on another post I also tend to use the language of the KJV when quoting as it does sound better. Does anyone (else..) have angelic version of the Bible (or other holy book) running around their campaign, ala The Prophecy? If so what is it and how did you tie it into your campaign? David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 08:58:19 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) >Devil's Advocate was a better Lucifer > movie: he actually performs his role of tempter and adversary. I had forgotten this one but you're right, reccomended for anyone wanting a more recent look at Lucifer than Angelheart. Pacino plays a better "gentleman" than DeNiro, who is a touch closer to the beast in AH. (Those fingernails...) David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 10:15:00 -0500 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > What, pray tell, does "taking the mickey out" mean? Mocking. Also known as "extracting the Michael" and "taking the piss". Usage; "Are you taking the piss?" = "Are you mocking me?" Doctor TOC (A non-supercilious, non-snobby Brit who likes Americans...because they're not Brits) - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 10:21:18 -0500 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: IN> Stigmata David Rodemaker wrote: > > OK, > > There were all sorts of posts after Dogma (ROTFL) and End of Days (Still > have to see) but I don't recall any comments on what I thought was an > on-topic movie with a lot of good parts -Stigmata... > > Were Kiara and I the only people to see it or just see it and like it (And > think it had great potential...)?? I liked it. I had to laugh at all the protests over it as I thought that the Catholic Church came out of it pretty well. Some of the imagery was fantastic, and performances all round were brilliant. I loved the muted colour effect (apparently acheieved by washing the negative in acid). A very cool film, much better than "End of Days". Now I'm just looking forward to "Lost Souls" with Winona Ryder. BTW, all those who are trying to fit Bartleby, Loki and co into the In-Nomine choirs; the script is currently available in bookstores, and there's a novelisation coming out in the New Year (providing we don't get smited/smote/blatted for going to see the movie in the first place). Doctor TOC - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 08:31:35 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL > What, pray tell, does "taking the mickey out" mean? Making fun of; mocking. If you say something sarcastic about me, I would ask, "Hey, are you taking the mickey?" > Earl Ben (American/British) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:00:36 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL > However, orthodox Buddhism still does not, to this day, endorse or > represent such beings. You will find many Buddhists who will tell you > quite firmly that they have no belief in spirits. I think you mean Theravada Buddhism, not "orthodox" Buddhism. The core of Buddhism is the Four Noble Truths: The Truth of Suffering, the Truth of the Causation of Suffering, the Truth of the End of Suffering, and the Truth of the Path which Leads to the End of Suffering. All of Buddhism revolves around the Truths, the Eightfold Path, the Self and the Mind. There are dozens of different flavors of Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana, Zen, etc.) they are all the same at their very core. Buddhism _seems_ to have a fairly rich mythology involving Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, a host of Tibetian spirits, and all those other goodies, but much of these are Hinduism-Buddism, Animism-Buddhism and Taoism-Buddhism fusions which evolved from the religion being widespread and 4,000 years old. Fundamentalist Buddhism has nothing to do with spirts of any kind. I would advise people to go hit http://buddhism.about.com/ and read a few of the primers there if they are interested. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:04:56 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Trapped on Earth Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > But hey, if one is worried about a celestial vessel-suiciding, just > encase the limbs in concrete blocks or something. What's he going to do, > hold his breath? Hmmm... I've always assumed that a celestial could just die at will. I have no evidence for this, but it doesn't seem unreasonable. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:06:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Christmas A Short History of Christmas As is fairly well-known, we don't have any clear record of the time of Christ's birth. Even the year is a little hazy, though around 6 BC seems plausible. People have made various conjectures about the time of year, but it's fairly clear that the early Church wasn't really interested in that, and picked December 25th because they were trying to Christianize the Saturnalia. The Saturnalia was a Roman feast dedicated to the god Saturn, who was, among other things, an agricultural god and so much concerned with things like the winter solstice. The shift from growing darkness to growing light was an appropriate time to celebrate the coming of Christ, so they put Christmas there. They certainly wanted to put something Christan there, because the Saturnalia was a fertility rite and thus pretty lewd and out of keeping with Christian morals. To the north, the other knds of paganism had similar indecorous revels (with even more reason, given the fiercer winters). The pasting-over effort was only partly successful. For centuries, Christmas was not nearly the big deal it now is, and often vaguely disreputable, being celebrated more as we now celebrate New Year's Day. Think of all those wassailing carols and songs -- drinking songs, really, and the carollers were a lot like trick-or-treaters, with singing instead of costumes, which is not necessarily an improvement. And there's an element of threat and coercion: "Oh, give us some figgy pudding [repeat three times] [...] We won't leave until we get some [repeat three times]" Cromwell banned Christmas in England, as did the Puritans in America. Then came the Victorian period and a fever pitch of public decorum, propriety, and family schmaltz, which the entire 20th century spent has been reacting to. Dickens, with his "Christmas Carol" and Moore with his "Visit from St. Nicholas" between them started the re-invention of Christmas. Note that, while it's cuddly and sanitized, it isn't particularly more Christian than the old Yuletide revels. Moore's poem is the root and font of the whole Santa mythology, and Dicken's novella introduces Christmas Spirits of his own invention, with only polite mentions of Christ and Christianity; it's all about the high themes of human generosity and mercy, not the even higher themes of divine generosity and mercy. And the commercialism moved in on human generosity immediately. So, when Christians pine after a more religious Christmas, or when people in general pine after a nobler Christmas, they are seeking an ideal that is well worth persuing, but it isn't in the past, any more than most other species of Good Old Days. Dragging this back, kicking and screaming, to In Nomine, while Marc is probably disgusted and Mammon delighted with the commericalization of Christmas, the Archangels in general are probably happy about the Victorian emphasis on generosity and mercy -- even the most militant of them are hardly *against* those ideas. And even Dominic and Laurence needn't grumble about the secular aspect of Christmas, since they both know that it's ALWAYS had a strong secular component; there's just been a change in the flavor of it. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:20:45 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible > I'd consider the NIV essential for a serious In Nomine writer or GM's > bookshelf. Other things one should have are the Quran, a good selection > of Apocrypha (especially the Book of Enoch, from which a LOT of > Judeo-Christian angel lore is taken), and Gustav David's "A Dictionary > of Angels." Gustav Davidson. I prefer a Jerusalem Bible because the translation is cleaner than the NIV (translated in 1966), and it's a complete Greek bible with complete Apocrypha and Deutercanonical texts, major and minor footnotes, maps, and introduction to Biblical themes. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:19:47 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Christmas Ben Chism wrote: > So it's got me wondering just what > the Superiors would do to celebrate Christmas.... > > Archangels: > Blandine: Who do you think spreads those "dreams of sugerplums" and > the like? > David: ?? Singing carols. In chorus. Big choruses. > Dominic: Spends it snooping around trying to figure out if this was > when Jesus was REALLY born..... Makes a list (checks it twice) to see who's been naught or nice. Oh, you used that for Laurence. Well, then, he re-reads "A Christmas Carol" by Dickens. A very Dominican story. > Eli: He throws one heck of a party. ...and advises others on picking gifts. > Gabriel: ? Lights Yule logs. Wears one of those Swedish crowns of candels > Janus: Absolutly loves all the presents he gets....or "finds" Aw, it's Christmas. He goes out "pockpicketing" -- slipping twenties and fifties into people's wallets. > Jean: It's just another work day to him...inventions to be > made...angels to keep an eye on.... No, no! Just look at all the high tech in toys these days! All that quality assurance and safety checking to do! > Jordi: Christmas? What's that? (that or he get's PO'd about all the > animals given to kids as presents that end up in shelters after the > cute factor wears off) On the other hand, the manger scene and the fairy tales spun around it are one of the few times people remember to bring animals into their spiritual lives. > Michael: Polishs up his battle-axe and goes out to find who sent him > a copy of (i dunno...something that'd really annoy Michael) Gives the gift he likes best -- victories. > Novalis: Goes around spreading cheer....(in other words, the same as > every other day) Heavy on the poinsettias and wreathes. And NO ONE does a Christmas tree like Novalis. > Yves: ? Watches a re-run of "It's a Wonderful Life." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:33:40 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible > > Tell me about it. The bible quote from 'Pulp Fiction' doesn't have > anything like the same resonance in the NIV. Ezekial 25:17. The KJV version is the closest. The quote is: "And I will execute great vengenceion upon them with furious rebukes, and they shall know that I am the LORD when I shall lay my vengence upon them." I assume that Quentin Taratino just gave this particular quote a little window dressing. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:21:47 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible At 8:47 AM -0600 12/27/99, David Rodemaker wrote: >Does anyone (else..) have angelic version of the Bible (or other holy book) >running around their campaign, ala The Prophecy? If so what is it and how >did you tie it into your campaign? For the 'Dark Destiny - Bright Fate' LARP one-shot I had a new book called 'Reflections' running around. But mostly to be quoted in the vignettes (the quotes did wind up in my movie trailer version of this game). Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:33:13 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Mercurians & Tarot Decks (WAS: Most troublesome. . .) At 8:49 AM -0500 12/27/99, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: >Of course I *started* with three Mercurians, two of whom had Yves' >attunement, and the Malakite of War. I ended up buying a tarot deck, and >showing a random card when the Mercurians resonated on a random NPC. You know, this is definitely the way to go. . . (That's what I got my Tarot deck for originally. Great for coming up with NPC's on the fly.) The keen thing is that you can use it for Elohim, Malakim and Seraphim as well. The other three Choirs that force the GM to come up with some 'details'. Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:32:15 -0400 (EDT) From: dweaver1@ic3.ithaca.edu Subject: Re: IN> Christmas Here's one of David's Christmas carols for you guys. "Oi to the World", the Vandals Haji was a punk just like any other boy And he never had no trouble till he started up his oi band safe in the garage or singing in the tub till Haji went too far and he plugged in at the pub 'twas a cold Christmas Eve when Trevor and the skins Popped in for a pint and to nick a back of crisps Trevor liked the music but not the unity So he unwound Haji's turban and he knocked him to his knees If God came down on Christmas Day I know exactly what he'd say He'd say "Oi to the punks, oi to the skins! But oi to the world and everybody wins!" Haji was a bloody mess, he ran out through the crowd He said "we'll meet again, we are bloody but unbowed" Trevor called his bluff and told him where to meet Christmas Day on the roof down 20 Oxford Street On the roof with his nunchuks Trevor broke a lot of bones But Haji had a sword like the guy from Indiana Jones (no guns!) police sirens wailing, a bloody dying man Haji was alone and abandoned by his band Trevor was there fading and still so full of hate When the skins left him there and went down the fire escape, oi oi! Then Haji saw the North Star shining more than ever (rolled a 111) So he made a tourniquet from his turban saving Trevor Then rappelled down the roof with the rest of the turban And went back to the pub where they bought each other bourbon If you think that's cool at all I've got the MP3. There's a lot of oi and punk bands with suspiciously angelic-sounding songs. I suspect David's influence. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:22:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians & Tarot Decks (WAS: Most troublesome. . .) I think giving out Tarot cards in answer to resonnance rolls is a nifty idea. And one could use the quasi-Tarot from Everway instead, if one happens to have it. (Taking it a step further, you can use ordinary playing cards, plus a booklet on how to do fortune-telling with same.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 14:12:16 -0600 From: "Greg Bilbruck" Subject: Agnosticism vs. Atheism (was RE: IN> Khalid and Religion) > "Weak atheist": does not believe in God/god. > "Strong atheist": believes there is no God/god. Your "weak atheiest" agrees more with Webster's definition of an agnostic Your "strong atheiest" agrees with Webster's definition of an atheist. Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary defines an agnostic as “one who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable". Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary defines an atheist as "one who denies the existence of God". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 14:32:21 -0600 From: "Greg Bilbruck" Subject: RE: IN> Stigmata I saw "Stigmata" and liked it. Although the movie took some digs at the Catholic church, I thought that the theme of "Stig" was fairly consistant with the message found in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John). I dare not describe that message, lest I spoil the movie. Best wishes, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:37:43 -0500 From: "Chris Bergstresser" Subject: IN> Times Square? NYC's security plans for the Millennial celebration in Times Square have been code-named "Archangel". - -- Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:54:59 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible Emily Dresner wrote: > Ezekial 25:17. The KJV version is the closest. The quote is: > > "And I will execute great vengenceion upon them with furious rebukes, and > they shall know that I am the LORD when I shall lay my vengence upon > them." The NIV version is less fun. It goes: "I will carry out great vengeance on them and punish them in my wrath. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I take vengeance on them." (It was MAGE. I really wanted my MIBs chanting this in unison as they fought the PCs, just like Jules did. But you can't always get what you want.) > I assume that Quentin Taratino just gave this particular quote a little > window dressing. Good call on his part. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia You ought to be peeled, salted, driven through the streets by mental patients with spiked planks, and then used as a toilet and jizz-catcher by baboons in heat. At _best_. - - Spider Jerusalem, TRANSMETROPOLITAN #4 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1475 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.