From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 28 15:47:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA30611 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:47:07 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA24167 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:41:25 -0600 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:41:25 -0600 Message-Id: <199912282141.PAA24167@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1476 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1476 In this digest: IN> Atheism/Agnosticism IN> Agnosticism vs. Atheism Re: IN> Re: Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Agnosticism vs. Atheism Re: IN> Mercurians & Tarot Decks (WAS: Most troublesome. . .) Re: IN> Impudite resonance redux IN> Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge IN> Vessels & Injections Re: IN> Times Square? Re: IN> Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge Re: IN> Agnosticism vs. Atheism Re: IN> Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge Re: IN> Vessels & Injections Re: IN> Balseraphs (Re: Trapped on Earth) Re: IN> Trapped on Earth IN> Prosperous Future- Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible Re: IN> Vessels & Injections Re: IN> Israfel, Archangel of Music Re: IN> Israfel, Archangel of Music Re: IN> Times Square? Re: IN> Israfel, Archangel of Music Re: IN> Atheism/Agnosticism Re: IN> Mercurians & Tarot Decks (WAS: Most troublesome. . .) IN> In Nomine and Cabala Re: IN> In Nomine and Cabala Re: IN> In Nomine and Cabala Re: IN> Mercurians & Tarot Decks (WAS: Most troublesome. . .) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:17:44 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Atheism/Agnosticism >Someone Else wrote: (David, please don't snip the attributions):<<< I get the list in Digest form. I'd have to manually retype the name of the original poster, which is too much trouble. Sorry. >>>At least as I understand it, the terminology is: "Weak atheist": does not believe in God/god. "Strong atheist": believes there is no God/god.<<< Basically correct. But believing something to be true, based on available evidence, is still not the same as being *sure* that it is true (e.g., claiming to KNOW that it is true, e.g., having faith that it is true). Some atheists could be said to have faith that God does not exist, but many (such as me) do not. (I am a weak atheist, btw.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:36:01 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Agnosticism vs. Atheism [I know, it's somewhat off-topic. But it bears discussion, since theology, or lack thereof, does figure into In Nomine.] >>>Your "weak atheiest" agrees more with Webster's definition of an agnostic Your "strong atheiest" agrees with Webster's definition of an atheist.<<< This is why dictionary definitions shouldn't be treated as the be-all and end-all definition. It's hard to summarize a complex theological/philosophical position in a sentence or two. (I doubt Webster's even mentions the distinction, which is recognized by theologians and philosophers, between strong and weak atheism.) In a nutshell, an agnostic believes that God's existence is unknowable; short of God appearing to you personally or otherwise proving Himself (which He doesn't seem inclined to do), one cannot know whether or not God exists. There's not enough evidence to dismiss the possibility, and perhaps enough evidence to keep the possibility open. A weak atheist believes that since there is no evidence for God's existence, there is no reason to believe in God. One can concede that you can't prove a negative without denying that you can still draw reasonable conclusions based on evidence. (I can't prove that blue fairies don't dance in the center of the moon, but most people would concede it's reasonable for me to believe they don't.) A strong atheist believes that we have enough evidence to refute the existence of God, or at least any supreme being resembling what major religions represent as God, and are therefore willing to state as a presumed fact that there is no God. In practice, it's often hard to distinguish between agnosticism and weak atheism, and many people who call themselves agnostics are actually (if you question them about their beliefs in detail) weak atheists, and vice versa. I am a weak atheist. My natural inclination is toward a somewhat stronger expression of disbelief, but I'm not willing to make the "leap of faith" (pun intended) it would take to state as a fact that I *know* God doesn't exist. To add some small amount of In Nomine content: an angel would have to court Falling to be a true atheist, but a demoralized, doubtful angel could possibly be an agnostic. Demons often profess to be agnostics or atheists, but are rarely sure enough of their disbelief to have faith that there really isn't a God. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 19:08:43 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Re: Beliefs in RL Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >Perry Lloyd wrote: > >> Hey, Jess, do you remember what Buddhist sect believes in good and >> evil spirits? I don't believe its the Zen Buddhists. > >Isn't there a tale about Maya, a personification of illusion or >desire, trying to distract or tempt the Buddha as he sat beneath >the bo tree, working his way to Enlightenment? Maya sounds rather >like the Devil, and in particular rather like the Devil tempting >Christ in the wilderness. Is this tale a late addition to >Buddhism? I'd guess it's a later accretion, since it has a personified god, but you need to be careful about identifying Maya with the Devil. IIRC, Maya, as a god rather than a concept, is a Buddhist mutation of the Hindu god Kama -- the god of desire and romantic love. In Hindu myth, Kama (armed with sugarcane bow) incites desire in the hearts of man. This is obviously not intrinsically evil (as anyone who has been in love can attest), but if it causes you to abandon the path of dharma (right conduct) for the desire of the moment, you *have* done the wrong thing. An example: In the Mahabharata, the warrior Karna was loyal to the evil king Duryodhana, even though he himself was a heroic figure. This was because Duryodhana had met Karna when he was penniless and friendless, and in a moment of extravagant generosity gave Karna an entire kingdom as a gift of friendship. So Karna could not bring himself to turn against his friend even though he was doing evil. Karna's kingdom, as it happened, was a land holy to Kama. Since the Buddhists hold that desire is the root of suffering and that the world is an illusion that can be pierced (maya in Sanskrit), you can probably see how the two ideas got merged. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:38:24 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> Agnosticism vs. Atheism Agnosticism claims that God's existence, and, furthermore, his nature if he *does* exist, is "fundamentally unknowable." That's real close to everyone's favorite adjective, "ineffable." I think an angel could be agnostic quite easily, dismissing the details of God and His plans as "ineffable, and thus, to me, apparently completely arbitrary and stupid. He gave me my nature, and my Superior gave me my task, and that's all I need. Attempting to question Higher would be futile." Or is this "weak theism," i.e. God exists, but this means nothing in particular at our level? Obviously this becomes easier the further from divinity you are (i.e. Kyrios and Mercs), but a Seraph could decide that anything his resonance can't, by nature, deal with is just beyond Truth and not worth worrying overmuch about. Michael Martin, agnostic "It is no one's privilege to despise another. It is only a hard-won right after long experience." -- Isaac Asimov, "C-Chute" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:43:25 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians & Tarot Decks (WAS: Most troublesome. . .) In message , Earl Wajenberg writes >I think giving out Tarot cards in answer to resonnance rolls >is a nifty idea. And one could use the quasi-Tarot from Everway >instead, if one happens to have it. > >(Taking it a step further, you can use ordinary playing cards, >plus a booklet on how to do fortune-telling with same.) > Ellen Kakkaratchi, posted an _excellent_ article on tarot cards and how to apply them to IN, way back in digest 848, and concluded in 855. Well worth a look. - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 02:44:21 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Impudite resonance redux > > There's some disagreement >> as to how powerful the Impudite resonance is. Some (including me) feel >> that as written currently, it's entirely too weak, since an Impudite >> *has* to be a Will-monster to have much better than a 50% success rate >> with ordinary mortals > >I have gone back and forth with this. It seems that, with a reasonably >decent Will (9+) and some clever play, most players can overcome this. > > Trouble is, some people (myself included) are going to see a Will of 9 as a little better than 'reasonably decent' (I'd call that a 7 for Celestials). I scratched the whole Ethereal + Celestial Forces penalties to both Charm _and_ Drain, with regard to Mundanes, and I haven't found it to be game breaking. They still get the Will roll to resist in both instances (although the roll to resist the charm may be penalised by how much the mundane _wants_ the imp to be his friend -- 'clever play'). You only need an exceptional Will therefore, if you want to tackle Soldiers upwards. > >This attunement upgrades this to an enhanced ability to snitch essence >from *particular* victims. I agree that this is handy. I just don't >think it's worth giving up the Charm power, which is seriously useful in >its own right, not just as a prelude to grabbing Essence. > > In regard to David's Genubath write-up, I thoroughly agree with the loss of the Charm. Pillagers aren't suave or insidious. I might extend the cancellation of penalties on the Drain just to Soldiers though, IMC. - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:15:27 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge RAPHAEL Archangel of Knowledge "The world is full of wonders, and the glory of God will reveal itself to those who seek it out." Raphael ("God has healed"), the Archangel of Knowledge, was not one of the first angels created, but a very early creation, present when the Earth was given form and substance. Raphael was the most beautiful of all the angels (with the exception of Lucifer) -- Raphael's Elohite androgyny did not give the Power a sexless look, but rather, all the grace and comeliness possible of either gender. No one could look upon Raphael and not perceive the Archangel as a paragon of feminine and masculine beauty. (There is a legend that Raphael was the first of the Elohim, and that because the angel was too beautiful, all the Dynamis that followed were deliberately formed less perfectly, lest they not be as objective as Raphael and succumb to pride.) Raphael exhibited boundless curiosity early on, and was given the task of recording all information, all knowledge. Only an Elohite could be given this task, since anyone else with access to all knowledge might not use it objectively, and thus could attempt (even unintentionally) to usurp God's role. Raphael maintained the Heavenly Library, and Servitors of Knowledge filled it with bits of knowledge brought from the farthest reaches of the universe. Although Raphael's role was often underestimated, the Archangel of Knowledge was certainly one of the most powerful Superiors who ever lived -- arguably the most powerful of all the "second generation" Archangels (those who followed the first seven - -- see the Game Master's Guide, p. 92). Raphael (along with Gabriel and Eli, under Yves' direction) was instrumental in bringing religion to mankind. Raphael's Word did not only apply to rational knowledge, but also spiritual knowledge -- it was at least as important that humans know God as it was for them to know the workings of His creation. Raphael encouraged the scholarly traditions of the Hebrews (and is often credited with teaching mankind literacy), and helped spread Christianity to overwhelm paganism, which Raphael loathed nearly as much as Uriel for its irrationalism and separation from the Divine. The Archangel of Knowledge remained neutral during the Islam debacle and Gabriel's trial, which some took to indicate disapproval. (Raphael did later support Islam, though, and came to be one of the four Archangels most honored by Muslims.) In 1008 A.D., Legion, the (second) Demon Prince of Corruption became a threat so dire that Heaven and Hell allied for the first time to destroy the renegade Shedite Prince. In that battle, Raphael made the ultimate sacrifice; every iota of energy in the Archangel's being and Word was directed at Legion's celestial form. Legion was destroyed, but Raphael was no more. (Another legend -- there are many regarding Raphael -- is that centuries later, Archangel Eli discovered an amazingly talented Remnant that was beyond his ability to heal, and brought him to Rome, where he became the artist known as Michaelangelo.) Following Raphael's demise, most angels of Knowledge transferred to Yves' service, as the Archangel of Destiny took over most of Raphael's duties, and the Divine Library. Some (particularly those who were involved in the spread of religion) chose to serve Gabriel or Khalid instead. Thus, there are a fair number of angels still alive who possess attunements and Distinctions of Knowledge. The dissonance information, Rites, politics, and invocation modifiers given below only apply in a historical or alternate campaign where Raphael still lives, of course. DISSONANCE Angels of Knowledge should encourage humanity's natural curiosity. It is dissonant for them to prevent or hinder a human from obtaining information, even if that information would be harmful. However, they are not required to help someone find knowledge (though it is encouraged, unless that knowledge is dangerous). CHOIR ATTUNEMENTS Seraphim (Restricted) Raphael's Seraphim are among the wisest of their Choir; and can read the Truth of the Symphony in written words. They do not receive penalties to their check digit (In Nomine, p. 57) when applying their resonance to recorded media. (It's up to the GM whether a Seraph with this attunement in the modern day would be able to apply it to film, electronic reproductions, and the like. One could argue that Raphael's Word still applies to all forms of knowledge, but one could also argue that without Raphael around to "upgrade" the attunements, they still only function as they would have when the Archangel was alive.) Cherubim (Restricted) Raphael's Cherubim have access to any knowledge possessed by those to whom they are attuned. They cannot read their attuned's current thoughts or feelings, but they can read his memories. They may also use any skill or Song known by their attuned, at the level the subject knows it, but only one at a time. Ofanim (Restricted) Ofanim of Knowledge can find any information they're looking for. They do not get penalties to their skill roll when using their resonance to enhance Area Knowledge rolls to find specific or subjective information, as other Ofanim do (In Nomine, p. 97). They may also use their resonance to reduce the time it takes to find specific information -- as a general rule, divide the normal time to look something up by the check digit of a successful resonance roll. Raphael's Ofanim can walk into a library and walk straight to the exact book they need, and more often than not, open it up to the relevant page. Elohim (Restricted) In addition to the normal information gained by their resonance, Elohim of Knowledge automatically learn what information (if any) their subject is currently seeking. On a check digit of 3+, they know why the subject wants to know this, and on a check digit of 5+, they know what the subject will do with it or how he will react if he gains the information he wants. Malakim (Restricted) It is given to Raphael's Malakim to purge information planted by the Enemy. They may apply their resonance to the written word, and know whether it was written by, or under the influence of, a diabolical servant. This includes lies (or truths!) told by a demon to an innocent mundane who merely transcribed them. With a check digit of 6, the Malakite will know if the writer was a demon. Of course, not everything written under diabolical influence is necessarily evil -- but if a Malakite of Knowledge determines that a piece of information was planted by servants of Hell, he may destroy it or otherwise make it inaccessible without suffering dissonance. (This attunement can be applied to as large or small an excerpt as the Malakite likes. If he applies it to an entire book in which one paragraph was written by a demon, for example, he will learn only that some of the content was written under diabolical influence, but not exactly which content. Of course, he can start applying his resonance to smaller and smaller sections if he wants to narrow it down . . . ) Kyriotates (Restricted) Raphael's Kyriotates are the best teachers in the universe, as they may implant knowledge in their hosts. After a Kyriotate of Knowledge leaves a host, he may leave any information he likes in his host's mind. (This includes skills and Songs, though the recipient must still pay character points for these). The host will not know how he knows it, but the knowledge will seem to come "naturally." Mercurians (Restricted) The resonance of a Mercurian of Knowledge will tell him a number of skills and Songs possessed by an individual equal to the check digit, in addition to the usual information. (The GM determines which ones are revealed -- usually in order of importance to the subject.) The Mercurian may use his resonance repeatedly to get complete "skill lists," or he may determine whether or not the subject possesses a specific skill or Song, one per resonance roll. Raphael's Intercessionists also recognize writers, teachers, and librarians on sight. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS Healing Strictly speaking, this is a subset of the Word of Knowledge, but Raphael was renowned for healing abilities (and was often mistakenly called the Archangel of Healing), and so many Servitors of Knowledge specialized in knowledge of healing. This attunement allows the angel to infallibly diagnose what is wrong with someone, physiologically or psychologically, with a touch. (The angel must "lay on hands" for at least a few seconds -- momentary skin-to-skin contact won't do it.) It will detect injuries, diseases, poisons, and drugs, as well as dissonance, Discord, possession, and the influence of a Habbalite resonance. Library Card Yves was able to continue granting this attunement after Raphael passed away. It functions exactly like the Destiny Servitor Attunement (Heaven and Hell, p. 33). Right of Passage Like Library Card (above), this was originally one of Raphael's Servitor Attunements before Yves inherited it (Heaven and Hell, p. 34). Raphael was much freer than Yves in granting it. DISTINCTIONS Vassal of Knowledge The angel can comprehend any language, spoken or written, when he perceives it. (Yes, this includes the diabolical tongue.) This grants him understanding only -- if he wants to speak or write in the language, he needs to learn it normally (or use the Corporeal Song of Tongues). Friend of the Wise The angel has access (through the Symphony) to everything written by the hand of man. Of course, that's rather like having access to the Library of Congress, or the World Wide Web -- it may take you awhile to find the exact information you want. The character may utilize any information the player can find in written form (or any other media the GM deems appropriate -- see the Seraphim attunement, above, when considering whether the Internet, videotapes, and the like should count) as if the character also had that information. While the player is spending time digging for books and looking up information, game time continues to pass -- this represents how long it takes the Vassal to search through the vast Symphonic library in his head. Also note that just because something is written down, doesn't mean it's accurate! The GM need not feel any obligation to be kind to smart-alecky players who thumb through their In Nomine supplements when invoking this Distinction . . . Master of the Wisdom of the Ages The angel knows everything. Really. Seriously, he knows everything that's written down. Given the sheer volume of information in his head, though, he may not always be able to recall what he needs to know when he needs to know it. Treat this as the Friend of the Wise Distinction, above, except that the player has -- theoretically -- unlimited time to look things up without any game time passing. (Theoretically because when the GM and/or players get tired of waiting, the GM can declare that the angel is standing there mumbling to himself.) RELATIONS Raphael got along with nearly everyone, rarely becoming embroiled in Heavenly politics, despite being very much a presence in the Seraphim Council. Uriel and Dominic both felt at times that Raphael allowed humans too much information, but no one distrusted the Archangel of Knowledge. Allied: Yves, Gabriel, Eli (Eli and Litheroy were allied to Raphael) Associated: Dominic, Jean (Yves, Gabriel, and Jean were associated with Raphael) Hostile: No one (No one was hostile to Raphael) BASIC RITES * Spend four hours teaching willing students * Spend six hours studying in a library or meditating * Learn a hitherto-unknown fact * Write a (non-fiction) book * Copy a book, scroll, or other tome of information (in the modern age, this Rite would probably change from copy to disseminate widely, as in mass publishing) CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 2 INVOCATION MODIFIERS (Bear in mind that these modifiers applied in ancient times, up to the Middle Ages, when scholarly teachers and universities were rare.) +1 A non-fiction book +2 A Bible, Quran, Talmud, or other religious volume written by hand +3 A library +4 A human with a Knowledge skill of 6, teaching that subject +5 A multi-disciplined university +6 The site of the leading edge of research into a new field ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:34:18 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: IN> Vessels & Injections I've searched for the answer on this, rooting through all the books I have (everything except GMG) and on the web page, and I can't find it anywhere. I was watching _La Femme Nikita_ (movie, not the TV show) and I wondered: do injections work on vessels? I mean, obviously, giving a Balseraph sodium pentathol isn't going to do too much good, but would a (powerful) tranquilizer knock one out? Also, what about poisons and/or various medicines? Obviously, a vessel has a greating healing capacity than a mortal's body, but to what extent is the vessel subject to drugs. I know what the answer's going to be -- whatever I want, since there are no canon police. I'm just curious to hear other people's opinions and rationale, since I'm arguing both sides right now -- and winning. GG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:04:35 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Times Square? > NYC's security plans for the Millennial celebration in Times Square have >been code-named "Archangel". Hey, I plan to be there. Watch for mem w/girlfriend, under the Target sign. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:26:59 -0500 (EST) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge >Raphael's Ofanim can walk into a library >and walk straight to the exact book they need, and more often than not, >open it up to the relevant page. Does this work in the libraries of Yves and Kronos as well? J - --- jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life) werther@hilander.com (play) jayafter12am@hotmail.com (late-night) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:45:27 -0600 From: "Michael Neal" Subject: Re: IN> Agnosticism vs. Atheism - ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Edelstein" To: "In Nomine" Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 7:36 PM Subject: IN> Agnosticism vs. Atheism > In a nutshell, an agnostic believes that God's existence is unknowable; > short of God appearing to you personally or otherwise proving Himself > (which He doesn't seem inclined to do), one cannot know whether or not > God exists. There's not enough evidence to dismiss the possibility, and > perhaps enough evidence to keep the possibility open As an agnostic, I'll go beyond this. Even if God appears before me, that does not prove his existence as the Creator and everything that is supposed to go with the job. Pretty much by definition, there isn't any corroborating source of information. Of course, I buy into all 8 1/2 (or thereabouts) yards of Humist skepticism, so everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:50:43 CST From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: Re: IN> Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge > >Raphael's Ofanim can walk into a library > >and walk straight to the exact book they need, and more often than not, > >open it up to the relevant page. > >Does this work in the libraries of Yves and Kronos as well? > I'd have to say no. In the various write-ups about the Divine Library, and the Infernal Archives, (Rev. 3, Heaven and Hell) it's stated that the books, etc tend to move around. In the Archives, Kronos has librarians that randomly reshelve books according to individual tastes. The Library is "semi-aware) and moves corridors around so that those who ought not to find info, don't find it. Wade Habbalite of Technology, Demon of Telemarketers ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:58:58 CST From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: Re: IN> Vessels & Injections Here's the book you want: Revelations Cycle 1: Night Music Pages 66-69. The write-up doesn't say exactly whether or not celestial vessels are affected by drugs. But, I'd have to say that they are, to a lesser degree than a human. Otherwise, why write up what they do? Anyway, since vessels don't need to eat, drink, etc; but do need to breath, I'd say any inhaled drug has full effect, while ingested/injected drugs have maybe 1/2 effect. Wade Habbalite of Technology, Demon of Telemarketers ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 01:56:51 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs (Re: Trapped on Earth) At 4:08 PM -0500 12/23/99, Gregory Gietzen wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Elizabeth McCoy >> almost anything the Balseraph _says_ to be the absolute truth." [...] >the [APG] details how a Seraph can pick up non-verbal lies. (A non-police >officer wearing a police uniform, someone passing counterfeit money, for >example.) To my mind, this would suggest that the Balseraphs' power would >involve the ability to convince someone that the money is good or the >uniform is real, despite the small inconsistencies (missing badge, horns on >the President, etc). But I arrive at that conclusion only through a sort of >IN obversion, so I could be very wrong. It's not a bad theory, and a GM could easily use that as a basis for a house rule... (But at nearly 2am after getting home from vacation, I can still muzzily see a lot of worms oozing out of that can...) There would have to be an _implied_ lie, though, and not just a "telepathic suggestion" effect. I.e., the Bal would have to be in a police outfit, with enough ID to be vaguely convincing, or sitting in the Oval Office's chair with "Secret Service" bodyguards. I wouldn't want it to function as a "insta-Role" versus Mercurians and other angels, though -- if they weren't using their resonance verbally, I'd be strongly inclined to have any successful angelic resonance-use cause the "Reality Disagrees With The Balseraph Violently" effect. ("No, the moon is _not_ blue! It's right there, and it's white!") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 01:58:14 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Trapped on Earth At 4:24 PM -0500 12/23/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >>From: Elizabeth McCoy >> > But hey, if one is worried about a celestial vessel-suiciding, just >> > encase the limbs in concrete blocks or something. What's he going to do, >> > hold his breath? > >Well, why not? With sufficient Will rolls, since Celestials don't >need to sleep, I'd give some chance for the Celestial not to pass >out, until he actually passes away.... I'd figure that they'd go unconscious first (it's not the same as sleep -- it's a lack of _oxygen_), just like a human, and start breathing again. Unless they had a funky vessel. It's the other stuff (causing oneself to choke deliberately) that would be more the danger. Get the ball-gag... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:52:24 -0600 From: 5j87.36@compuserve.com Subject: IN> Prosperous Future- UNIVERSITY DIPLOMAS Obtain a prosperous future, money earning power, and the admiration of all. Diplomas from prestigious non-accredited universities based on your present knowledge and life experience. No required tests, classes, books, or interviews. Bachelors, masters, MBA, and doctorate (PhD) diplomas available in the field of your choice. No one is turned down. Confidentiality assured. CALL NOW to receive your diploma within days!!! 1-212-465-3248 Call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, including Sundays and holidays. rem-- tech88@popmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:17:20 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL >From: Earl Wajenberg > >What, pray tell, does "taking the mickey out" mean? > 'taking the mickey' or 'taking the mick' means to poke fun of someone for doing or saying something stupid. It was originally based on a racist anti-Irish type of stereotype, because the Irish (also known as 'Micks') are also the butt of Irish jokes which portray them as being stupid. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:20:59 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary versions of the Bible >From: Emily Dresner > > > > > Tell me about it. The bible quote from 'Pulp Fiction' doesn't have > > anything like the same resonance in the NIV. > >Ezekial 25:17. The KJV version is the closest. It is a sad comment on my friends that when we went to see Pulp Fiction, the first thing that anyone said after the credits rolled was "You know, they got that quote from Ezekiel wrong" :) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 01:35:16 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Vessels & Injections >do injections work on vessels Celestials, when in a vessel, are just as susceptible to drugs, poison and alcohol as mortals -- mortals who are 250% more physically powerful than an average human and able to withstand enough punishment to kill four grown men. With an average of 3 Corporeal Forces, 6 Strength, and a level 2 Vessel, celestials shouldn't have too much of a problem with injections. Now, if you inject 'em with enough tranquilizer to floor a rhino, you'll probably be okay. >GG Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:51:27 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: Re: IN> Israfel, Archangel of Music >Um... an Archangel who turns her angels into half-demons??? I can't see >that giving her any more job security than a narcoleptic airline pilot. Umm, I'm sorry, but how does music have anything to do with demons (barring some black metal bands - note I'm saying black metal, there are also christian metal bands) How in any way whatsoever does being the archangel of music mean that you're half demonic? Kris Why yes, I am a metal head. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:32:31 -0500 (EST) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> Israfel, Archangel of Music >Umm, I'm sorry, but how does music have anything to do with demons... Not a thing. But the write-up indicates that the servants of Israfel all gain a demonic resonance of one sort or another. Hence, the comment. J - --- jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life) werther@hilander.com (play) jayafter12am@hotmail.com (late-night) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:29:24 +0100 From: cd skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Times Square? Chris Bergstresser wrote: > NYC's security plans for the Millennial celebration in Times Square have > been code-named "Archangel". And the FBI's analysis of the threat of "domestic terrorism taking advantage of the new millenium" is called "Project Meggido": ObIN: Well... how many of the potential "domestic terrorists" are sponsored by celestials, from above or below? /cd - -- why would you want to own /dev/null? "ooo! ooo! look! i stole nothing! i'm the thief of nihilism! i'm the new god of zen monks." -- Kevin Lyda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:48:39 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Israfel, Archangel of Music On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au wrote: > >Um... an Archangel who turns her angels into half-demons??? I can't see > >that giving her any more job security than a narcoleptic airline pilot. > > Umm, I'm sorry, but how does music have anything to do with demons (barring some black metal bands - note I'm saying black metal, there are also christian metal bands) How in any way whatsoever does being the archangel of music mean that you're half demonic? Apology accepted, since you must not have read the writeup that I was referring to. (You can search the digests of the list on SJGames.com, BTW, if you ever need to.) In the writeup, Israfel gives each of her angels a DEMONIC resonance to use. E.g., her Mercurians can lie like Balseraphs, her Elohim can screw with people's minds like Habbalah, and so on. That struck me as... well, let's just say it struck me as something that wouldn't go over well in Heaven. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:58:47 -0500 From: Adam Thomas Gieseler Subject: Re: IN> Atheism/Agnosticism I suppose that I'm a weak atheist, as I believe that there is a spiritual force, but not the one that Christian doctrine supports--ie not Jesus-as-God or God the Founder. (Dominion!) I actualy like Shintoism in that regard. But that isn't what most people hear when they here Shintoism, or paganism. So I don't use any of those words. So I call myself an atheist. Keep in mind that these thoughts are comparatively recent, and I was an theist for some time before that. Adam who has faith that this isn't OT and wonders if thatgives Khalid Essence ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:13:52 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians & Tarot Decks (WAS: Most troublesome. . .) On Tue, 28 Dec 1999, Julian Breen wrote: > >I think giving out Tarot cards in answer to resonnance rolls > >is a nifty idea. And one could use the quasi-Tarot from Everway > >instead, if one happens to have it. > > Ellen Kakkaratchi, posted an _excellent_ article on tarot cards and how > to apply them to IN, way back in digest 848, and concluded in 855. Second that, HIGHLY. I just grabbed it off the digests, and I'm surprised she didn't submit it to Pyramid... that article was worth paying for. I hope my roomate doesn't mind me borrowing his tarot deck when we play... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "There he goes - one of God's own prototypes. A high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production... too weird to live, too rare to die." -- Hunter Thompson, "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:57:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> In Nomine and Cabala I have been looking into Cabala (spelled many ways) on the Web, in a desultory way, and stumbled across an aspect of it that matches pretty well with In Nomine, by accident or design. In Cabala, there are four worlds. These are: Assiah: "Manifestation," the workaday world. It is the physical world, or the realm of sensory experience. Obviously, it would correspond to the Corporeal Realm. Yetzirah: "Formation." It is the concensus world of meaning, imagery, and social construction. In short, it is the non-physical world we make up. It would correspond pretty well to the Ethereal Realm. Briah: "Creation" as in ex nihilo. It is an intermediate heaven or the world of the mind. It would be where the Words are, the Celestial Realms. Atziluth: "Nearness," the immediate presence of God. It is THE heavenly realm or the highest heaven, clearly the Upper Heavens. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:26:41 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine and Cabala In a message dated 12/28/99 2:01:56 PM Central Standard Time, earlw@mc.com writes: << I have been looking into Cabala (spelled many ways) on the Web, in a desultory way, and stumbled across an aspect of it that matches pretty well with In Nomine, by accident or design. >> I'm not well ejikated in theology. What is Cabala? Who came up with it? It sounds interesting. Reverend Brian A. Rogers (who, with the title of reverend, should know better) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:36:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine and Cabala BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > I'm not well ejikated in theology. What is Cabala? Who came up with > it? It sounds interesting. It is a system of mysticism or theosophy originating in the late Middle Ages and Renaissance (though claiming much greater antiquity) among Jews. It resembles, and mingles with, Hermeticism, especially when it's picked up by gentiles. It makes up (or reveals, depending on your convictions) lots of details about the spirit world, which is how one might be led to mixing it with In Nomine. A couple of URLs for it: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/9319/faq.html http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/9319/tree.html Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 16:39:39 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians & Tarot Decks (WAS: Most troublesome. . .) > Second that, HIGHLY. I just grabbed it off the digests, and I'm surprised > she didn't submit it to Pyramid... that article was worth paying for. I > hope my roomate doesn't mind me borrowing his tarot deck when we play... _twitch_ My crazy sense of the useless and the pointless is setting off alarms up in my bean filled head and saying: if yer gonna game with tarot cards, _don't_ game with someone's personal, live deck. Think of it as deck etiquette. BUT... you CAN get perfectly good decks off of amazon.com. Go hit http://www.aeclectic.net/ first to preview decks. (170 decks! Reviewed!) There's all kinds of goofiness available. - - Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1476 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.