From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Feb 11 14:25:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26867 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:25:16 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA09384 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:21:55 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:21:55 -0600 Message-Id: <199902112021.OAA09384@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1117 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 11 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1117 In this digest: Re: IN> Publishing Company for Sale! Re: IN> Gaining a Heart (was Re: IN> Sorcery Question) IN> #1 Rated Home-Based Business for 2-Years - No Selling IN> Shedim of Asmodeus IN> Belief IN> Calabim site IN> infernal saints, sephiroth, submission and control (hmmm!) IN> IN writing and editing IN> Redemption Pamphlet Re: IN> Shedim of Asmodeus ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 12:26:20 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Publishing Company for Sale! >At 11:51 PM -0500 2/9/99, Matthew D. Gandy wrote: >>Auuggghhh! A Internet pyramid scheme! >>*sigh* I suppose it was just a matter of time. >Oh, they've been around for a long time. Complain to abuse@aol.com, >though, and don't post to the list about the spammer. (I track down >these people, I do...) Pyramid schemes? And here I thought In Nomine was a Pyramid scheme. }:-{D Redneck (or am I confusing that with Illuminati?) Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... respond to redneck@detnet.com please ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:37:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gaining a Heart (was Re: IN> Sorcery Question) At 10:00 AM -0800 2/10/99, Bloodroot wrote: >Our agents report that at 12:44 PM 2/10/99 -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >>Those assigned to Earth duty always get a Heart. Those who are not >>yet assigned to Earth duty *may* have Hearts (it helps the Prince keep >>an eye on them), and almost certainly should if they have their Band >>Attuement to the Word, but Princes may keep some Servitors Heartless > > >So from this, it may be interpreted that not all 'full' demons in service >to princes have even one attunement? It's really a GM call -- I would certainly allow for there to be little 7-Force fledged demons who are drifting around Shal-Mari, say, doing pizza delivery and ostensibly working for Haagenti -- but who have never even met their alleged Prince, let alone gotten an attunement or Heart from him. Stygia is another place like this, and even in Hades or Gehenna, I could see demons who've slipped through the paperwork/cracks somehow. (Used to be a demonling, is now a demon, and is just doing all the stuff they used to do and it hasn't gotten to the Prince's notice yet and/or someone lost the paperwork.) Mind you, if you aren't working for someone, and the Game catches you doing something they don't like, they'll probably fill their quota a little more by figuring "Heartless fledged demon = Renegade" unless your Prince has told them otherwise... But then, the Game will haul you in for breathing funny if they want. Gotta have Renegades to make Examples on Nybbas' HNN channel every week, after all. (The more Forces you have, the more you want to have a Heart, too; if you have 10 Forces, no Gamester is going to believe you're not a Renegade they can get a *reward* for hauling in, as well as fill quota with.) Anyway, if someone wrote in canon that there are some Heartless demons running around (and had a plausible reason for it, depending on Principality), I wouldn't quibble. I very likely *would* grumble if someone wrote the opposite, so at worst, it's a CDaU. (My reasoning also includes that Princes are *busy*, and it's easy to have a selection of demons slip through the cracks - though they're different cracks and different percentages of demons in each Principality.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:51:20 EST From: BoS2235@aol.com Subject: IN> #1 Rated Home-Based Business for 2-Years - No Selling ======================================== #1 Rated Home-Based Business for 2-Years ======================================== Need MORE MONEY in the New Year? NO Sales Involved - the company does all the telephone work for you. Make $100.00 per sale! Everything is set up for you. Telemarketers sell for you. Do NOT Hit Reply, for more information: Call Toll Free 1-800-267-1381 24-hour recorded call "The Common Wisdom says we get 2 Great Opportunities In Life! Is this your FIRST or SECOND?" Call Toll Free 1-800-267-1381 24-hour recorded call PS 10,000 Emails sent for each of the first 20 that join us. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:48:12 -0500 From: Niccolo Subject: IN> Shedim of Asmodeus Do Shedim of Asmodeus have to take a Role, considering that they jump from host to host? Harold Donivan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:42:06 PST From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Belief Sorry about that outburst everyone, but I was getting annoyed at having all these wacky little ideas that I forgot 5 minutes after reading the digest. Anyway. I'm writing now about the recent rash of Mage / In Nomine postings, and a far earlier posting someone did about how God was an Ethereal who'd discovered some secret which allowed him to rewrite history (send flames to me please, that way other people don't get annoyed) with him as the creator of the universe. If you take this as true, then it becomes so much easier to link Mage and In, as both games then become about the amount of belief which the sides can gain to allow them to fix reality more into their desired image. While it might be easy to see how this is so with Mage, it becomes a bit more rational with In when you consider that somewhere between 3/4 and 7/8 of the population of the world is monotheistic. The whole issue of whether God is an ethereal is also put into a different light when you consider a different factor which I recently learnt - Before the beginning of Judaism, there existed a Cainanite war God named Yaweh. More supporting evidence for the rewrite of history is the fact that a large proportion of the Superiors were actually adopted from other religions. The Babylonians gave us Michael, Raphael, Beliael, and all the other ael's, The Greeks gave us Pan, who became Lucifer (come on, you hadn't guessed?), and the religions that gave us Nature Goddess worship gave us she who became Novalis. An enourmously large number of saints, angels, demons and superiors were in fact other religions. Getting paranoid yet? And you have to wonder whether any of them remember this. Crossovers with Paranoia perhaps? This is my way of making up for being a general git, so give me some other way to make a fool of myself, and I'll babble for hours. "Have the Gates of Death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the Shadow Of Death?" Job 38:17 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:55:18 PST From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Calabim site To everyone, Well, this is very depressing. I was looking over a number of websites, and the Calabim always seem to be depicted as thugs. To combat this, I decided to start a Calabim website. Unfortuanately, I'm too lazy to go to all the work of writing the amount of stuff it would take to make a good site, so I'm asking for submissions. Any of that really weird stuff on Calabim you made up, or any other stuff (paranoid monolouges for evildoers? Weapon stats? What really happens to the other sock?) send them to me at my email if you don't want to bother the list with them, or to the list if you do want to bother it with them. If the idea of lots of pathetic Calabim stuff annoys you, then don't just flame me, actually write some stuff about Calabim that's good. If the Admin of this list doesn't want this sort of thing going on on his/her/its list (no offense intended to anyone), Then please tell me, and I'll stop doing it (whimper, slink away). Enough babbling, I'll shut up now. "When the powers of goodness cease to exist, And when the glimmering light of hope that once was, is no more, All that remains in Man's time of Darkness Are the many shades of evil." Chronicles of the Timeless One, Araknis. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 04:26:00 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> infernal saints, sephiroth, submission and control (hmmm!) Everyone: "SHUT UP MAN!!!" (Throws hands in the air a la Joe Pesci in Lethal Weapon) "Ok, ok, ok, ok, ok, ok, ok, ok, ok, ok, ok, ok, ok, ok !" :-) David: "He submitted it as an article for Pyramid, which means it becomes the property of SJG. I see. That would happen to everything submitted I take it; it is then SJG's to do with what they will. "LOL! Are you serious? Reminds me of one of S. John Ross's Pyramid editorials, when he commented that some people would submit things to Pyramid with notes giving him "permission" to change them as needed for publication...." Well if those who submit know the score then there's no problem :-) . I was just curious that's all, having never submitted anything to Pyramid in my life you see! I understand stuff needs to be edited I just wondered whether the author, on occasion is ever consulted (regardless of property issues) as to whether the new writer is changing the rules for the 'worse'/missing the point. This isn't an issue of pride; if the original work was considered good enough to be used then doesn't the process of editing - inevitable I know - risk ruining the quality of the original? Would it then not be worth finding an alternative outlet for that article instead if the only space in the scheduled product doesn't do it justice? I was disturbed because it came across that Rednecks original article might have been seriously watered down - to the point where it would have been a waste of time. I am not presuming to tell anyone how to do there job though, let me make THAT clear! On the issue of control, let me end this by saying why I make the comment I did. It seems to me that people are censoring themselves too much for fear of going off-topic. This would be fine, but I've seen a number of occasions where what could be a good topic is curtailed because the author is 'frightened' of going off-topic. Bad choice of words I know, but I can't think of a more appropriate phrase - sorry. I don't presume to say that this lost is dominated by anyone, but that the control should be more lax so that people don't feel they can't post something. I see nothing wrong with going off-topic on occasion- and is it off-topic! For example, Ramesh said: "it was ceasing to be about IN and becoming *far* more WoD. A question about why angels don't get Paradox…isn't really an IN discussion and as such shouldn't be here." Isn't it? Where else would that question be able to find an answer? Wouldn't the Mage list (or whatever) make the same point as you? :-) I don't believe the list would then be lost, all topics would burn themselves out, and meanwhile others would be posting more 'relevant' issues anyway. Redneck: "As for 'where would an Infernal Saint run?', the answer is 'away.'" But Hell is everywhere isn't it; you cant run away from Hell to London say, because Hell is in London as well. The Infernal Saint (IS) doesn't have an immortal body, and maybe he can be programmed - like Replicants in Bladerunner - with a limited lifespan so he only remains on earth for the expected duration of the mission. Maybe Asmodues checks up on all the IS's regularly - he already does it with his servants anyway. A human - for that's what an IS becomes effectively again - is unable to run off into the Marches. Would Heaven be so quick to offer them shelter or asylum once they arrive back on earth. The soul is already damned, can it be damned again (and by implication can it be redeemed - how many chances do you get? What's the law of the universe?) Maybe they have to pay a toll to keep the books balanced; once a soul is returned to earth from Hell he must find another soul to replace it with (unfortunately this sounds too much like murder for my liking, but I'm open to suggestions!). he may have a demon monitoring him to make sure this happens. Or perhaps 'infernal technology' is able to register the corporeal death and track the passage of essence downstairs or something (I'm shooting from the hip here). This act further ensures the damned status of the returned soul so that heaven is not open to him and ensures that while on earth there is a soul taking his place back in hell so the accountants in the Archive are happy! Wouldn't the threat of being punished back in Hell be a far more effective restriction for keeping IS's in line. Or come to that the promise of further Earthly visits. The soul would have no knowledge of the true nature of Heaven, like new demons, and may well successfully convince the soul that this is a better place than Heaven, or that there is no Heaven, or even that this is Heaven! It's only us as players that know better isn't it. Ultimately aren't they in the same situation as weak (basic) demons - both of them hate Hell just as much as the other. What stops a demon from running away as opposed to a returned soul? ~pauses for air~ "What is the exact translation of Sephiroth I heard it's got something to do with the Tree of Life? Em replied: "I have neither the patience nor the time to go into an indepth diatribe on the Kabbalah right now. But, there's a decent enough page at http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/ which will provide you with a FAQ, some exceedingly goofy Thelema handwavings, and a good list of links." Wasn't Thelema the bespectacled friend of Scooby-doo? The hand waving I ever saw her do was when she routinely lost her glasses and couldn't find them (perhaps it was all some secret ritual! From my copy of the 'Elements of the Qabalah' (by Will Parfitt) Sephirah - - meaning number - (of which Sephiroth is the plural) is the name given to each of the eleven emanations of cosmic manifestation on the Tree of Life that underlie the while of existence. The Sephiroth are ordered numerically (from 1 to 10) according to the 'Lightning flash' of creation (don't ask!)The Tree of Life, from the same source, is the Ten Sephiroth (the eleventh emanation referred to above probably refers to Daath) and the 22 connecting paths. All forms - manifest or unmanifest - mirror this structure. Daath specifically (without mentioning the other Sephiroth in detail), 'is the sphere without a number', the gateway to the hidden Tree behind the visible one (upon which yo will find the 'Qliphoth', plural of Qliphah, the shadow side of the Sephiroth, but don't quote me on that!). I, er, hope that helps - I'm still trying to learn myself! Martin, who seriously needs to lie down now! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 11:17 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> IN writing and editing >David: "He submitted it as an article for Pyramid, which means it >becomes the property of SJG. > >I see. That would happen to everything submitted I take it; it is then >SJG's to do with what they will. Yes. This is clear if you read the submission guidelines. > I understand stuff needs to be edited I just >wondered whether the author, on occasion is ever consulted (regardless >of property issues) as to whether the new writer is changing the rules >for the 'worse'/missing the point. An editor isn't a "new writer".... In the case where some existing material is condensed/re-written, generally the original author isn't consulted -- this often happens a long time after the stuff was written, and SJGames may not even know how to contact the original author any more. That's not true in this case, of course, but there is no general policy of trying to find the original author to "bless" the changes. Sometimes the original author of a book is hired to do the revision, but for a small amount of text, this is far more hassle than it's worth. Remember that the gaming industry is a fairly marginal business. That said, if the editor knows how to get in touch with the original author, they'll often do it informally, especially if they have questions about the original intent. Note that, in many cases, if the editor wants substantial changes in something, they'll simply give their comments back to the writer, and ask them to fix their text. Minor word-choice and clarity changes don't necessarily merit this treatment, unless they're included with other, larger requests. Generally an editor will make substantive changes only if the writer doesn't seem to be addressing the problems the editor raised, or if the changes need to be made on a tight deadline and going back to the author would probably cost too much time. However, this isn't a case of changing a submission -- it's a case of taking bits of material from one publication (the Pyramid article) and using them somewhere else in a rather different form. This happens all the time, as material sometimes needs to be re-hashed or summarized from one product into another for reasons of reader convenience. An example of this is the character creation material at the backs of the APG and the IPG. I believe the case in point is similar. > This isn't an issue of pride; if the >original work was considered good enough to be used then doesn't the >process of editing - inevitable I know - risk ruining the quality of the >original? No. Strange as it may seem, a lot of "usable" material still needs editing. Sometimes it's for consistency, sometimes it's simply to improve clarity. Editing is *not* the same as writing... ask Elizabeth sometime. Also, as a sometime writer, I actually appreciate the fact that there's another pair of fresh eyes looking over my text -- in a big project, one gets tired of looking at the material after a while, and you start missing problems. Most editing changes are pretty minor, and with few exceptions, I've considered all the editorial changes in my text to be definite improvements. Those few exceptions are where the editor's opinion and/or goals were different than mine, and in those cases, the editor generally should win -- consistency is important in a multi-author product line. However, what David is doing here is what I would call writing, not editing -- he's writing a new piece of material that's *based on* another written by someone else. This sort of thing happens all the time, and is perfectly acceptible to all concerned. (If it isn't, the original writer has no future in the game-writing business, frankly. Most game lines have a shared authorship among many free-lance and house writers. Anyone who isn't willing to be a "team player" in this environment won't get much work.) > Would it then not be worth finding an alternative outlet for >that article instead if the only space in the scheduled product doesn't >do it justice? Presumably it will still be in Pyramid someday. Just because the ideas are summarized elsewhere doesn't mean the full article won't see the light of day. Usually, though, the article would appear first, and the adaptation into the actual product line would come afterward. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:45:15 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Redemption Pamphlet This was taken and adapted from an essay I found elsewhere... I just imagined it being handed out to those newly Redeemed in Heaven while they're being debriefed. I figured, instead of using it on Fiat, I'd just share. Hey, no one ever said Redemption was fun, easy, or painless. Or quick. ********************************************************************* IT HURTS to discover you were deceived - that what you thought was the "path to total freedom" was in reality a lie. IT HURTS when you learn that people you trusted implicitly - whom you were taught not to question - were lying to you, using you. IT HURTS when you learn that those you were taught were your "enemies" were telling the truth after all -- but you had been told they were liars, deceivers, and not to listen to them. IT HURTS when you know your faith in God hasn't changed - only your trust in the Organization - yet you are accused of apostasy, being a trouble maker, a "Judas". It hurts even more when it is your family and friends making these accusations. IT HURTS to realize their love and acceptance was conditional on you remaining a member of good standing. This cuts so deeply you try and suppress it. All you want to do is forget - but how can you forget your family and friends? IT HURTS to see the looks of hatred coming from the faces of those you love - to hear the deafening silence when you try and talk to them. IT HURTS to know you must start all over again. You feel you have wasted so much time. You feel betrayed, disillusioned, suspicious of everyone including family, friends and other former members. IT HURTS when you find yourself feeling guilty or ashamed of what you were - - even about leaving them. You feel depressed, confused, lonely. You find it difficult to make decisions. IT HURTS when you feel as though you have lost touch with reality. You wonder if you really are better off and long for the security you had in the Organization and yet you know you cannot go back. IT HURTS when you feel you are all alone - that no one seems to understand what you are feeling. It hurts when you realize your self confidence and self worth are almost non-existent. IT HURTS when you have to front up to friends and family to hear their "I told you so" whether that statement is verbal or not. It makes you feel even more stupid than you already do - your confidence and self worth plummet even further. IT HURTS because you know that even though you were deceived, you are responsible for being taken in. All that wasted time... at least that is what it seems to you - wasted time. THE PAIN OF GRIEF Redemption is like experiencing the death of a close relative or the end of a major relationship. The feeling is often described as like having been betrayed by someone with whom you were in love. You feel you were simply used. There is a grieving process to pass through. Whereas most people understand that a person must grieve after a death, they find it difficult to understand the same applies in this situation. There is no instant cure for the grief, confusion and pain. Like all grieving periods, time is the healer. It is _not_ wrong to feel confused, uncertain, disillusioned, guilty, angry, untrusting - these are all part of the process. In time the negative feelings will be replaced with clear thinking, joy, peace, and trust. YES - IT HURTS BUT THE HURTS WILL HEAL WITH TIME, PATIENCE & UNDERSTANDING There is life after hell. ************************************************************************** - - Em Current Quote: Dominic: [Turns to Kobal.] We find the accused guilty of Vanity, Sedition, Malice, Impiety, Disrespect, and Bad Taste. Kobal: [Gives Dominic a thumbs-up.] - Exchange during the Mock Trial ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:20:06 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Shedim of Asmodeus Niccolo wrote: > Do Shedim of Asmodeus have to take a Role, considering that they > jump from host to host? Their paragraph implies otherwise; however, there are plenty of Roles that don't require that you have a single body, such as an online presence or a contract killer (who only operates via phone or fax, of course), so I'd say that if you can think up a convincing Shedite Role, then the points are yours. (This is entirely up to your GM, though.) Example: Last semester (after Cutstone dropped out of the action) I played a Shedite of Asmodeus in Perry "Suddenly..." Lloyd's game; he allowed me to take "Online Presence" as a Role (Level 3 Status 2, with 2 more levels of Computer Programming, iirc). Of course, I never got to actually _use_ it, being as I only played Dancer (said Shedite) for three sessions which were fairly combat-heavy, but I'd been in a longer game then I'm sure it would have been useful. :) - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Translation anthoch@earlham.edu 159.28.165.120 "Jesus saves. Roll for initiative." ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1117 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.