From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Mar 1 15:47:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25242 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:47:46 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA26077 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:43:38 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:43:38 -0600 Message-Id: <199903012143.PAA26077@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1131 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, March 1 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1131 In this digest: Re: IN> Word of Redemption IN> Re: Word of Redemtption IN> Re: Character Sheets IN> Fluffy Filk: "The Night The Old Guy Went Crazy" Re: IN> Word of Redemption IN> Word of Redemption IN> Dissonance conditions Re: IN> Re: Character Sheets Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Fluffy Filk: "The Night The Old Guy Went Crazy" Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Word of Redemption IN> Lunacon? Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Word of Redemption IN> FLUFF Re: Character Sheets Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Tethers and Windies (and Mercurians!) Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Fluffy Filk: "The Night The Old Guy Went Crazy" Re: IN> Fluffy Filk: "The Night The Old Guy Went Crazy" Re: IN> Fluffy Filk: "The Night The Old Guy Went Crazy" Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim IN> kyriotates.... Re: IN> Word of Redemption IN> Servitors of Judgement -- Behind the Music ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:30:59 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption At 2:58 PM -0500 2/28/99, Jo Hart wrote: >>And agreed, but at the very least, that Demon should be frightened. This >>is a *nasty* Angel, who if he doesn't believe the Demon is Redeemable will >>tear the forces from the Demon's quivering form. > >And how is this angel scarier than.. having to face an angelic superior face >to face and beg on bended knees for it to forgive your evil past and give >you another chance? (Yes, we know that Novalis isn't necessarily all that >scary but does the would-be redeemed demon know that?) > > Oh, it's not. A different *sort* of fear, though. (More circumstantial evidence on how Ehlohim have the inside track on the Word of Redemption, though. Looks like the Angel of Mercy is an Ehlohite of Judgement -- which puts another face on Dominic, too. The more I think about it, the more I feel an Ehlohite's the only Angel who can keep the necessary perspective in objectivity.) > I wonder if even the fact that demons _can_ be redeemed at all is >suppressed by the Hellish authorities -- I know I'd keep that information >under wraps and make sure that any infernal denizen who was speculating too >loudly about the possibility would quietly disappear if I were in charge >down there...) > > I'm sure they try, but I have to figure Redemption buzzes around in the Demon's heart (take that how you will) like a gadfly. It's one of those things that's just *there,* somehow. It's like raising human children and not telling them anything about human sexuality -- even denying it exists. Sooner or later, you're going to have some kids learning the birds and the bees all on their own. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:23:28 PST From: "Krowe _" Subject: IN> Re: Word of Redemtption >Interesting. Is the Character's personality flavoured most by the >Malakite aspect. Mostly. He got the Cherubim Resonance just before we played Fall of the Malakim. That has merged well with his existing personality. He recently recieved the Elohim Resonance and is having a little trouble with the dissonance conditions. The current GM says that Yves gave it to him to help him deal with his emotions. He pretends to be apathetic, but is really quite emotional in his decision making. It's supposed to be a lesson. Luckily, he can rid himself of dissonance by helping others Redeem. The current timeline of the campaign is a few months after the Final Trumpet. IMC, Michael and Baal are still fighting their "final" battle, but the more militant demons and angels are tired of waiting and things are heating up on the corporeal plane. To make matters worse, Michael and Baal are shifting across the realms as they duel and haven't been seen in few weeks. Their last appearance destroyed a small, midwestern town and most of its inhabitants. Krowe Malakim Master of Destiny, Angel of Redemption Lord Master Librarian of the Night Angels Space Marines Lord of XAOZ "What good fortune for those in power, that people do not think." -- Adolf Hitler, 1889-1945 "Love is a dirty trick played upon us to achieve the continuation of the species." -- novelist W.Somerset Maugham, 1874-1965 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:36:31 PST From: "Krowe _" Subject: IN> Re: Character Sheets I must congratulate you on a spectactular job with those sheets. I'm downloading them as I type this. There's a typo in word Mercurian, though. ;) Everyone eventually converts to Nitpicking, one way or another. Krowe Malakim Master of Destiny, Angel of Redemption Lord Master Librarian of the Night Angels Space Marines Lord of XAOZ "What good fortune for those in power, that people do not think." -- Adolf Hitler, 1889-1945 "Love is a dirty trick played upon us to achieve the continuation of the species." -- novelist W.Somerset Maugham, 1874-1965 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:56:32 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Fluffy Filk: "The Night The Old Guy Went Crazy" (I'm probably going to regret posting this...) To the tune of Weird Al Yankovic's "The Night Santa Went Crazy" Down in his studio, Wrench was makin' noise With recording equipment, and some Vapulan toys When the Old Guy came in, and took a deep breath, With a Claymore in his hand, and face as grim as Death. From his boots to his bald spot, he didn't look forgivin' Seems he'd fin'ly got tired of suffrin' Evil's livin' Said "I've been decieved, and I'm still not sure why, "But one thing's for certain. Tonight, you're gonna die!" The Night the Old Guy Went Crazy, The Night the Austin Truce fell Realized he was surrounded by Demons Thought he'd put a couple dozen in Hell. The Tokamak's down now The equipment was shoddy The magnets couldn't deal With Vilson's broken body Nabbed Nikelodemus Fate's man on the spot snapped his neck one-handed and left him to rot He got Hugo and Lauren With decapitation and then scheduled Mackie for in-vivo cremation They say that he got Frex's tether to drown With nuclear help from outside of town! We're Talkin' 'bout The Night the Old Guy went crazy The night the secret came out Not a word from the Inquisition On the carnage he was spreading about. Three-B went down pretty quick with a knife in his eye He grabbed Powers Long in her car Took her ninety full minutes to die! The House of Pain's burning And stomachs are churning The War's tides are turning around! Ratings are great! If you tuned in too late There'll be a two-hour special at 8. Bloody up to his armpits, he returned for a smoke And to ponder his future At the Old Treaty Oak He'd slain all the Demons But he still looked vexed "The Host kept the secret So I guess they are next!" Put Tomas in Trauma And Druiel in Limbo. He tore out the spine Of some Bright Lilim bimbo. At this pace the peace of the following Morn Will be shattered with a sounding of Gabriel's Horn! We're talkin' 'bout The Night the Old Guy went crazy The night the secret came out Not a word from the Inquisition On the carnage he was spreading about. The Night the Old Guy went crazy The Night the Austin truce fell Realized he was surrounded by Demons Thought he'd put a couple dozen in hell. Thought he'd put a couple dozen in Hell. Thought he'd put a couple doz...en in Hell. (We now return you to some semblance of sanity.) ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Tasha, Balseraph Knight of Factions, the Alternate Angel of Political Correctness. | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:50:35 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption At 4:30 PM -0500 2/28/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >(More circumstantial evidence on how Ehlohim have the inside track on the Elohim. I don't know where my spelling skills have gone. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:45:12 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Word of Redemption >>>Before answering that I should explain that our local game is really high-end on the power scale. We rotate GM's and have gone through the entire Revelations Cycle as well as numerous little side bits in between. Our "weakest" angel is 17 Force, un-WordBound. We are currently contemplating playing through the process of our characters becoming Superiors. We've made up a lot of stuff and expanded on the abilites of above 18 Force celestials and how one becomes a Superior.<<< Wow. Guess we'll need to publish the "Munchkin Player's Guide" soon, which will come complete with stats for Superiors. So PCs can kill them. ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:58:30 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dissonance conditions >>>The more that a given Angel or Demon rules-lawyers his way to get around his dissonance conditions, the more he ends up acting contrary to his nature. Dissonance is the reflection of the Symphony on an Angel or Demon acting contrary to his part *in* the Symphony. At what point does stretching definitions begin to inflict Dissonance on a given Angel or Demon all by itself? And is it possible for a GM to 'track' non-dissonant contrary actions... and possibly have the Angel Fall unexpectedly? (I don't know how a Demon could spontaneously Redeem, but maybe suddenly get inflicted with Angelically oriented Discords?)<<< The game mechanics exist to provide a framework. Obviously, they can't cover every devious interpretation a player might come up with, which is why we have these discussions about "How close can you come to crossing the line without actually doing so?" I think this goes to a fundamental point about In Nomine -- it's a very flexible, very roleplaying-oriented game that requires a LOT of GM arbitration. GMs saddled with rules lawyers and lacking the ability to exercise their discretion (and use the Rule of No) will find their campaign overwhelmed by power-gamers. So the answer is that the GM will have to decide for himself at what point to inflict dissonance on a celestial who's flaunting his dissonance conditions by going as far as possible without committing a "technical violation." I would recommend that GMs (1) make sure players are aware that literal violations of what's written in the rulebook are not the ONLY way you can earn dissonance, and (2) give players a warning before their character suffers dissonance for something they might think shouldn't be dissonant (e.g. "You feel a painful .... disharmony ... in your soul as you feel yourself starting to become out of tune with your resonance"). If they have no clue that something can give them dissonance, you shouldn't slap them with it by surprise. But once they know the rules and that you won't let them play lawyerly games with dissonance conditions, go ahead and spank them when they get out of line. Also, I would NOT ever make an angel spontaneously Fall (except perhaps an NPC, as part of a plot). A single action shouldn't make an undissonant angel go straight to demon. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:38:23 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Re: Character Sheets >I must congratulate you on a spectactular job with those sheets. Cool. >I'm downloading them as I type this. (They're updated folks. *grin* Didn't want to mention it. Talking about it every five seconds borders on obsessive. *evil grin*) >There's a typo in word Mercurian, though. ;) Doh! Alright. One fix coming up. *smirk* >Everyone eventually converts to Nitpicking, one way or another. Yeah, well. . . You know them Djinn Princesses. . . They -like- to be cuddled and all. *evil grin* - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:13:07 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption Jo Hart wrote: >>And agreed, but at the very least, that Demon should be frightened. This >>is a *nasty* Angel, who if he doesn't believe the Demon is Redeemable will >>tear the forces from the Demon's quivering form. > >And how is this angel scarier than.. having to face an angelic superior face >to face and beg on bended knees for it to forgive your evil past and give >you another chance? (Yes, we know that Novalis isn't necessarily all that >scary but does the would-be redeemed demon know that?) > > > I wonder if even the fact that demons _can_ be redeemed at all is >suppressed by the Hellish authorities -- I know I'd keep that information >under wraps and make sure that any infernal denizen who was speculating too >loudly about the possibility would quietly disappear if I were in charge >down there...) > According to the IPG Hell tells everyone that Redemption is nothing but Propagander from heaven and that it is impossible and would kill any Demon who tried it. Or Words to those effect. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:27:40 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Fluffy Filk: "The Night The Old Guy Went Crazy" Not, bad. In fact it's so not bad it's good! Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:23:12 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption Whistling in the Dark wrote: >(More circumstantial evidence on how Ehlohim have the inside track on the >Word of Redemption, though. Looks like the Angel of Mercy is an Ehlohite >of Judgement -- which puts another face on Dominic, too. The more I think >about it, the more I feel an Ehlohite's the only Angel who can keep the >necessary perspective in objectivity.) > >> I wonder if even the fact that demons _can_ be redeemed at all is >>suppressed by the Hellish authorities -- I know I'd keep that information >>under wraps and make sure that any infernal denizen who was speculating too >>loudly about the possibility would quietly disappear if I were in charge >>down there...) >> >> > >I'm sure they try, but I have to figure Redemption buzzes around in the >Demon's heart (take that how you will) like a gadfly. It's one of those >things that's just *there,* somehow. It's like raising human children and >not telling them anything about human sexuality -- even denying it exists. >Sooner or later, you're going to have some kids learning the birds and the >bees all on their own. I personally think one of the things about Redemption is that most demon believe it is impossible. And I don't think Demons (generally speaking) get Redemption urges the same way humans get sexual urges, demons are cut off from the Symphony - alone - they can't even feel emotion from another human the way we can, I don't think most demons can understand why a mother would protect her children from a violent attacker when it wolud make more survival sense to run and have some more children later. I do think in some circumstances a demon could seek redemption off their own back without really realising what they are looking for, but I'm not sure whether something external has changed them, or whether the gadfly you talk about has awakened from a long slumber. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:14:30 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption Ramesh wrote: > According to the IPG Hell tells everyone that Redemption is nothing but > Propagander from heaven and that it is impossible and would kill any Demon > who tried it. Or Words to those effect. Only the most stupid demons believe that. If it were true, Asmodeus wouldn't work so hard tracking down Renegades. He'd allow Hevaen to do his job for him. Plus, there *are* Bright Lilim, which instantly makes the propaganda suspect. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:04:17 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> Lunacon? So, is anyone from this list going to be at Lunacon next weekend? And is SJGames going to have any activities going for it? Arisia's were well planned out, so I'm hopeful.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 03:21:46 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption - -----Original Message----- From: Leath Sheales <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 01 March 1999 03:06 Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption >Ramesh wrote: > >> According to the IPG Hell tells everyone that Redemption is nothing but >> Propagander from heaven and that it is impossible and would kill any Demon >> who tried it. Or Words to those effect. > >Only the most stupid demons believe that. If it were true, Asmodeus >wouldn't work so hard tracking down Renegades. He'd allow Hevaen to >do his job for him. Plus, there *are* Bright Lilim, which instantly >makes the propaganda suspect. Well that's all the Calambim then :-) But seriously: 1 There are so few Bright Lilim they could be ignored as rumours (or explained away as propagander) 2 Not all Renegades want to Redeem, in fact most of them don't. 3 Most Demons don't have the benefit of having read the rules books :-), they get their information from Hell, sure they won't trust all they are told, but they'd trust it more then a bunch of angels who spend the better part of their lives trying to kill them. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:39:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption At 2:14 PM +0000 3/1/99, Leath Sheales wrote: >Ramesh wrote: > >> According to the IPG Hell tells everyone that Redemption is nothing but >> Propagander from heaven and that it is impossible and would kill any Demon >> who tried it. Or Words to those effect. > >Only the most stupid demons believe that. If it were true, Asmodeus >wouldn't work so hard tracking down Renegades. He'd allow Hevaen to >do his job for him. Plus, there *are* Bright Lilim, which instantly >makes the propaganda suspect. Bright Lilim are a myth, citizen. They are the Host's propaganda. They do not exist. You say you have spoken with something that claimed to be a Bright Lilim? Ah, but consider the humans whose memories are stripped from them and implanted into some clever demonling -- it's exactly the same thing. Not just with Lilim, either, but with *any* demon who seeks this 'redemption' that the Host claims to exist. The soul, the *person* is destroyed, and nothing is left but a few scattered memories in a new-fledged angel. Even if redemption does exist, you're not the same person. The Archangels force your soul open, and "clense" you of all your "evil." Your personality isn't your own. With pain and power, they twist your mind, brainwashing you until you are, of course, a "happy angel." They take you, you know, and make you atone. You have to beg and bow and scrape. You're given to the Malakim for their amusement, and you have to suck it all up. Every beating, every molestation. Because you're atoning for what you were *born* as, for doing things that only make sense. And when you're finally broken in spirit and will accept anything they dose out and come crawling back for a pat on the head to "make it all better," then they sell you off to whoever will take you, and you can call an Archangel your Lord. Oh, yeah, and those Malakim really *loooove* wanna-be Brights; they put little relics on them that keep them from being burned up, and then... well, then the runt with the Sword gets 'em. And you *know* what he'll do with them, since he can't get hold of their Mother. You pays yer money and you takes your chances with what demons say... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:30:22 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> FLUFF Re: Character Sheets At 2:36 PM -0800 2/28/99, Krowe _ wrote: >I must congratulate you on a spectactular job with those sheets. >I'm downloading them as I type this. >There's a typo in word Mercurian, though. ;) > >Everyone eventually converts to Nitpicking, one way or another. > > >Krowe >Malaki[te] Master of Destiny, Angel of Redemption Why do you think I'm a Princess? (BTW, the singular of "Malakim" is "Malakite.") };> - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:32:33 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption At 7:45 PM -0500 2/28/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>[...] We've made up a lot of stuff and expanded on the abilites of >above 18 Force celestials and how one becomes a Superior.<<< > >Wow. Guess we'll need to publish the "Munchkin Player's Guide" soon, which >will come complete with stats for Superiors. So PCs can kill them. ;) Now, now, be nice. I've been known to ponder on such notions... Of course, I'd drop everyone in some place like Yrth first, and make them learn how to do all the Superior stuff, but that's another adventure seed. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:19:29 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption At 10:21 PM -0500 2/28/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >3 Most Demons don't have the benefit of having read the rules books :-), >they get their information from Hell, sure they won't trust all they are >told, but they'd trust it more then a bunch of angels who spend the better >part of their lives trying to kill them. > Boreil slowly walked out of the burning wreckage of the store, thumbing through the garishly painted book. "Took you long enough." Boreil looked up. Alac was leaning against his car, looking smug. Damn guy always looked smug. He was an expert at making you feel an inch tall. Boreil kept thinking about breaking that smug face.... "Catch," he said, instead. He threw another of the books at the Balseraph. "What's this?" The Balseraph looked at the art on the cover. "Cute girl." "Rulebook," Boreil said. "About us." Alec looked up. "What?" "Just what I told you. It's a damn *game.* I found it while I was setting the fire. Books about the angels, about us, about the War... Hell, they got the rumors in print about Furfur." Alec furrowed his brow, thumbing through the pages. "You've gotta be kidding me," he said. "Nope. The bands, the choirs, the whole God Damn nine yards, all in glorious black and white." "Do you... know what this means?" Alec said quietly, scanning them. "There's information in here... about the Princes. Even about the Archangels. About what they want. Do you know the power this could...." His voice trailed off, and that damn smug look came back to his face. "What?" "It's a lie. Enough of a lie to trap us maybe. But a lie. Asmodeus's oily fingerprints are all over this." "What? How can you tell?" Alec tore the cover off, and held up the remnants of the spine. "Look at the bindings on these things. You saying this *isn't* a Demonic plot of some kind?" That's what *really* cheeses me about Alec. Too often, he's right. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:49:08 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Leath Sheales wrote: > Ramesh wrote: > > According to the IPG Hell tells everyone that Redemption is nothing but > > Propagander from heaven and that it is impossible and would kill any Demon > > who tried it. Or Words to those effect. > Only the most stupid demons believe that. If it were true, Asmodeus > wouldn't work so hard tracking down Renegades. He'd allow Hevaen to > do his job for him. Plus, there *are* Bright Lilim, which instantly > makes the propaganda suspect. Not necessarily. One doesn't have to Redeem to be a pain in the neck for Hell. In my campaign, my primary character (it's a two person campaign, with my friend the primary GM but I GM some too, so there are lots of 'bit characters') is a Renegade Lilim. When Miniya first went Renegade she decided that she was damned well going to *earn* everything Asmodeus would do to her anyway if he caught her. Several centuries later, she's still not Redeemed (though probably will be in play) but has caused a significant amount of damage. Hm. I don't think Miniya would *ever* have Redeemed if it hadn't been for World War Two. She saw everybody in Hell except for Mom and Nybbas line up behind everything she loathes, Nybbas playing both ends against the middle, and Mom quietly enraged but unable to do much to support Freedom without being caught. And everybody in Heaven except for Jordi was lined up, if not in support of what Miniya cares about, at least against what she hates, and Jordi was usually supporting his fellow Archangels upon request. Before then, she didn't care much about the War qua War, she just hated half a dozen of the Princes and liked more of the Archangels than Princes. After WW2 Miniya was much less happy with Princes such as Andrealphus and Haagenti and Kobal and Nybbas and Valefor. In any case, my guess would be that demons who've been on Earth service for any length of time figure out that Redemption is possible. But most of the demons in Hell have no clue. I would also guess that everyone knows the propaganda is lies, but that most figure that while Redemption is *possible*, nine out of ten demons fry in the process and the tenth is brainwashed to the point where he isn't himself any longer. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:27:54 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Before answering that I should explain that our local game is really > high-end on the power scale. We rotate GM's and have gone through the > entire Revelations Cycle as well as numerous little side bits in > between. Our "weakest" angel is 17 Force, un-WordBound. We are currently > contemplating playing through the process of our characters becoming > Superiors. We've made up a lot of stuff and expanded on the abilites of > above 18 Force celestials and how one becomes a Superior.<<< > Wow. Guess we'll need to publish the "Munchkin Player's Guide" soon, which > will come complete with stats for Superiors. So PCs can kill them. ;) Heh. I'm in a two-person co-GMing (with my friend primary GM) game at roughly the same Force level. While nobody has more than one Choir or Band resonance, we are definitely playing at a munchkin level. Our house rule is that Wordbounds can have over 6 Forces in the various categories and therefore over 18 Forces. However, the additional Forces are limited by the power of the Word and celestial's connection to it. Furthermore, the types of Forces which can be pushed above 6 and the characteristics above 12 must pertain to the Word in question. For example, say a celestial had the Word of Computer. Computers have absolutely nothing to do with Strength, so he wouldn't be able to push Strength above 12. What computers mostly do is process information very very fast, so he could raise his Intelligence. And computers have lots of tiny delicate parts and calculate things exactly, so he could raise his Precision. You could argue Will, Perception, and Agility both ways; I'd let him raise Will and Perception, but I'd insist that Intelligence and Precision be well above Will or Perception. In our campaign, becoming a Superior is a change of state, much like becoming a Word-Bound is. It deepens your connection to the Word, so that you're connected to all aspects of it, not just the literal aspect plus what figurative meanings you painstakingly force upon yourself. And it lets you connect others to your Word, rather than simply sharing with them a little of the power you can from your connection. And doubtless other things as well that we haven't specified. I can see how you could play a fun campaign with one character becoming a Superior. What I don't see is how you could play *multiple* characters becoming Superiors at anywhere close to the same time. It's not as if groups are normally made Superiors at once, or becoming a Superior was a frequent event. In Heaven, one a century would be above average. Lucifer makes 'little Princes' more often than that, but not *that* often. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:48:03 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Tethers and Windies (and Mercurians!) Ramesh Satkurunath (That's me) wrote: >EDG wrote: > >>Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> >>> One thing to remember if a Windie spends more than 3 days in 1 location >>> they only earn 1 point of dissonance, therefore a windie with 2 points >of >>> dissonance could spend 3 weeks (1 for each point they went in with and 1 >>> for the point they got from hangin' about) in a tether and have no >>> dissonance at the end. >> >>Not how I read it... IMO the counter resets after three days, so a >>Windie in a Tether for three weeks would take 7 dissonance and only lose >>3; starting with 2 notes already, therefore, would make it nearly >>impossible NOT to be Outcast/to Fall. > > >Someone on the list stated it was like that a while back, I can't remember >who, I took them on face value. I'll try to find out who it was and post >the quote later... I checked the FAQ and I got it wrong: "Do Servitors of Janus gain Dissonance if they are held in one place against their will for more than three days? Yes, but not for every three days. They get hit once for the lack of movement. If, on the other hand, they voluntarily stay in place for multiple blocks of time, they can rack up dissonance multiple times." Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:57:27 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 2:14 PM +0000 3/1/99, Leath Sheales wrote: >>Ramesh wrote: >> >>> According to the IPG Hell tells everyone that Redemption is nothing but >>> Propagander from heaven and that it is impossible and would kill any Demon >>> who tried it. Or Words to those effect. >> >>Only the most stupid demons believe that. If it were true, Asmodeus >>wouldn't work so hard tracking down Renegades. He'd allow Hevaen to >>do his job for him. Plus, there *are* Bright Lilim, which instantly >>makes the propaganda suspect. > >Bright Lilim are a myth, citizen. Thank you for expressing my point in a far more effective way than I could ever manage Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:38:14 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption > Wow. Guess we'll need to publish the "Munchkin Player's Guide" soon, which > will come complete with stats for Superiors. So PCs can kill them. ;) > > -David > Think of it this way: it would sell well. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:43:39 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption On Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 10:39:56PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Even if redemption does exist, you're not the same person. The Archangels > force your soul open, and "clense" you of all your "evil." Your personality > isn't your own. With pain and power, they twist your mind, brainwashing > you until you are, of course, a "happy angel." > Indeed. Most demons should regard redemption with the same horror a human might regard being assimilated into the Borg collective with, or being brought into Mind/Union with the Amnion. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:57:12 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Fluffy Filk: "The Night The Old Guy Went Crazy" On Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 05:56:32PM -0500, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > The Tokamak's down now > The equipment was shoddy > The magnets couldn't deal > With Vilson's broken body Of course when we were playing Demon Prince of Rock & Roll Furfur soul-killed him. Quite a lot of demons failed to die as a result. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:28:50 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Fluffy Filk: "The Night The Old Guy Went Crazy" Kevin Walsh wrote: > Of course when we were playing Demon Prince of Rock & Roll Furfur > soul-killed him. Quite a lot of demons failed to die as a result. Is Furfur not the DP of Hardcore, rather than Rock & Roll? Or am I mistaking my IN references? :) - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu 159.28.165.120 "Come on, I'm just a fish! I don't know these things." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:11:13 -0500 From: Matthew Rice Subject: Re: IN> Fluffy Filk: "The Night The Old Guy Went Crazy" > Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > Of course when we were playing Demon Prince of Rock & Roll Furfur > > soul-killed him. Quite a lot of demons failed to die as a result. > > Is Furfur not the DP of Hardcore, rather than Rock & Roll? Or am I > mistaking my IN references? :) > > -EDG Oh, he is, but the title of the adventure where you first see him (in Night Music) is "The Demon Prince of Rock and Roll." Matt (soul-killed him, eh? well, I hope it was more than just a token fight.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:35:45 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim On Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 06:25:20AM +0000, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Maybe it's because like (Most) Demonic Resonances it changes the Symphony. > Now I come to think of it when a Demon uses their Resonance in a > perception-ey manner (Like detecting a Need, a method of Destruction, Using > the Elohites Resonance, etc, etc.) they can't gain dissonance from failing > (I think). > Since they don't (directly) gain dissonance for failing resonance rolls anyway. of course they don't. The dissonance in all cases (except Impudite) comes from successful resonance rolls. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:48:32 -0500 From: Eric Subject: IN> kyriotates.... From where does the source material for the Kyriotates come? I am searching for references to possessing entities, especially those who are able to "multi-task" like the K-ates. Any help would be greatly appreciated.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:54:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption At 1:43 PM +0000 3/1/99, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 10:39:56PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> Even if redemption does exist, you're not the same person. The Archangels >> force your soul open, and "clense" you of all your "evil." Your personality >> isn't your own. With pain and power, they twist your mind, brainwashing >> you until you are, of course, a "happy angel." >> >Indeed. Most demons should regard redemption with the same horror a human >might regard being assimilated into the Borg collective with, or being >brought into Mind/Union with the Amnion. > >Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. Bingo! - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:38:59 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> Servitors of Judgement -- Behind the Music The following just sort of hit me while I was going through some older articles. There's a lot of presupposition of the worst when it comes to Dominic and the Inquisition. So, this came out. Comments welcome. I found old Protheil at the Chanticleer. That startles people -- what's a Servitor of Judgement doing hanging out in a bar? But people forget that Dominic's angels are... well, angels. They have *something* of a social life, or at least fake one. "Hey, old timer." He looked up at me when I said that. Protheil always looks about twenty-two, but he's been around since before Achilles gave Hector free Chiropody. I like to say it gets Protheil's goat, except nothing really does. That's why I like Elohim so much. They're so *fun.* "Tansit," he said simply, holding a steaming mug and sipping from it. He looked mildly disturbed, which for even the average Elohite was like saying he was foaming at the mouth. I guess if you get close to Elohim -- *really* close -- they let their hair down. They take a chance at letting their feelings out a little. Dangerous for them, but they have feelings, and they can't completely deny them even if they refuse to be guided by them. "Look," I said. "I just want you to know -- I don't hold the interrogation against you. At all. I mean, I know people *say* that but I wouldn't be down here if I didn't mean it. I mean, you know -- places to do, people to be...." "I know an Ofanite or two," he said. "I do know the pattern." "Yeah. Yeah... well, that's good. Really good. Hey, I'm gonna -- hey, what're you drinking? I mean, it's smoking." "Steaming. It's hot water." I must have blinked or something, because he got a slightly pained look on his face. "I like hot liquids. They help clear my thoughts. After a time, I realized all I wanted was the heat, not the taste, so I began getting boiling water when I was out at a place." "Hey. Hey, sure. Sure, that makes sense. Look, I don't mean to talk out of turn, but you seem off, man." "'Off.'" The tone made it a statement, but I think he meant it as a question. "Yeah. Yeah, you don't seem your normal self. I mean -- I know it must have been bad for you. I mean, Bennett was our friend, you too. And I think it's pretty horrid too, you know. I mean, sure he had discord, but he was a Malakite and he could have taken it, so I don't see why--" "I was Bennett's Inquisitor," he said. "Alain his Judge. Raymond his Executioner. We the Triad investigated, judged, and executed Bennett before God's Law. I have neither second thoughts nor regrets as to the sentence." I know I blinked that time. "Oh," I said. I didn't know what to say. I could have let my mouth run for a while but that didn't seem appropriate. "You are shocked." "Well... he was your friend, man, and I know he saved your life more than once, and you're saying you don't mind that you and the rest of the Triad killed him?" "I will mourn the angel who was my friend, in my own way and time," Protheil said. "That mourning did not bear on my recommendation or vote or our decision, and does not cause me to question them." He looked down at his mug. "The Malakite Bennett was would have thanked us. The dissonant and discordant shell he had become will not make me guilty." "Oh." It seemed inadequate. "Um... I don't mean to offend or get into your business or anything--" "Ask." "Well... are you okay? I mean, I know you're okay but you seem bummed out -- all vaguely goth-like depressed and junk. I know, I probably don't understand but it seemed like I should ask." "Mm. Am I all right? Yes, I am." He looked in the mug again, like an amateur fortune teller reading tea leaves. "I am undergoing a rigorous examination of all the necessary viewpoints that I can understand to help alleviate my tremendous depression, rage and fear. By isolating causes, I can more effectively reduce the emotions to their proper place." "Depressed? Angry? You? I mean -- I know, you're an Elohite so we don't see it, but... *why* are you feeling like that? I mean, if you're not upset about Bennett--" "Mm. Perhaps discussing my reaction with you will help to provide the necessary context for my emotions." He sat back. "Do you know how hard it is to serve Judgement?" "I... never thought about it." "Why not?" "Well... Servitors of Judgement always seem so holier-than-thou -- no pun intended. They have this smug little look, and it's like they're always looking you over, top to bottom, looking to see if your shirt's untucked or if you're not skipping the approved Angelic skip or something. I mean, you look like you enjoy your work so much." "Enjoy our work." He sipped the water again, holding it in his mouth for a long moment. "There is a kind of joy in serving the perfection of God, but I doubt it's any more joyful than one of Novalis's Servitors planting flowers or Michael's get striking someone on the head with a blunt object or the like. And yes, there is a pleasure in the chase sometimes, in the investigation, in bringing the hidden into the light." He looked at me then. "But none of my fellows that I have ever met has *ever* become dulled to what we have been charged to do. Each and every one of them knows that we are constantly examining our fellow angels - -- the works of God, the bright trills in the Symphony. Each of us is aware that our choices can lead not only to a good, kind and bright angel being brought to humiliation among his kind... but can lead to an Angel's destruction, his forces being pulled apart, his quiet instrument in the Symphony being made silent. That is a terrible, terrible thing, Tansit." "But... why do you all act so stuck up then? Why all the leading questions and little tiny smiles and... why?" Protheil shrugged slightly. "We need to maintain a detachment. We need to remind those around us that we are Servitors of Judgement. That our eyes are upon them. It is better to point out the smallest of flaws and the quietest notes of dissonance than to hold our tongues and let an Angel be brought before the full power of the Inquisition. And the Inquisition, even should we order the destruction of an Angel, is ten thousand times better than letting that Angel Fall. It is worse than merely having a trusted ally become a hated enemy, taking his knowledge with him. It is the certain, horrible knowledge that our failure led to that soul becoming what it hates and fears most." I nodded. I didn't know what to say to something like that. He looked into his hot water again. "Have I been a good companion, in my time on Earth with you, Tansit?" "Huh? Sure -- I mean, you're annoying sometimes but everyone can be annoying sometimes." "True enough. The others have accepted me, it seems. Yes?" "Well, sure. It took a little while but I think people warmed to you -- I mean, it always takes a while for a new guy to get in good with a group of--" "Quite." His voice was dry. He was looking into that water so intensely I expected it to part like the Red Sea. "They hate me, Tansit." "What? Now, that's a little harsh--" "No." He looked up at me. "No, it's not. I can feel the tenor of their emotions. They had grown to accept me, until my Triad stood in Judgement over Bennett. Each of them feels that Bennett deserved to live. Deserved another chance. And only 'that bastard' Dominic and his hateful, spiteful Servitors and that traitor Protheil would have thought otherwise. And we killed him. Tore his forces from his body and scattered them. And Bennett withstood it." He drank the rest of the water. "I wanted his answers to be different, Tansit. I wanted him to be redeemable. I wanted the risk to be lower than the benefit, the hope. I wanted so much to look my fellows in the eye and have us agree to some form of penance, of other work. To bring him to Laurence and have him cleansed, somehow. But they weren't, Tansit. He hated his Discord, but he did not hate the causes. He was moving further and further, cracking his heart. I did... what my duty, my charge, and my 'joy' is. And those I call friend hate me for it, and will continue their black hatred for all the Servitors of Judgement for who knows how long." He seemed more serene now. "Thank you, Tansit. I have indeed examined all the viewpoints more clearly in the telling." "You have?" "Yes. It is wrong of me to expect anyone but a Servitor of Judgement to understand the pains and glories of that service. And it is wrong for me to expect anyone else to see what we do and have done in terms other than the pain they feel. I must remember this, always. It is a part of our burden to be hated, not their burden to like us." "Oh. That... that seems so wrong, though...." "Perhaps it is, and perhaps it is not." He rose. "Within a few days, Dominic shall visit me as he always does. I will speak on these things with him, and receive his judgement upon me, lest my emotions become dissonant within me." "That's brave," I said. "I mean, you're practically *inviting* him to... I mean...." "I know what you mean," Protheil said quietly. "I believe in Dominic's judgement, Tansit. And whether you believe it or not, I think it is good and selfless. And if the pain and fatigue of forever having to find fault in those I love and be hated by those I would call friend are difficult for me... I cannot help but think how infinitely heavier they weigh upon him." I sat there for a long time after Protheil had left. Almost six minutes. Then I tore out for the Heights. I needed some speed and some distance from what I'd heard. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1131 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.