From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 4 16:45:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA31936 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:45:10 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA29868 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:39:32 -0600 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:39:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199903042239.QAA29868@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1133 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 4 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1133 In this digest: IN> The nature of evil IN> Munchkin Player's Guide IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors Re: IN> The nature of evil Re: IN> The nature of evil Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors Re: IN> The nature of evil Re: IN> The nature of evil Re: IN> The nature of evil Re: IN> Father of the Bride [plot hook] Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors Re: IN> Tethers and Windies (and Mercurians!) Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors IN> Re: Father of the Bride Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors Re: IN> Re: Father of the Bride Re: IN> The nature of evil ADMIN: Watch it... (Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors) IN> Bored IN> Bored Re: IN> Father of the Bride [plot hook] Re: IN> Celestial Advancement (was Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors) Re: IN> Bored IN> Any players in the Chicagoland Area? Re: IN> Father of the Bride [plot hook] Re: IN> Father of the Bride [plot hook] IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 22:56:11 PST From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> The nature of evil I was reading the fate section recently, and I came up with an interesting queation which is doubtless going to get me in deep Kim-chee, but, what the hell, I've always been suicidal. My question is this. If fate is a deliberate choice to do evil, then wouldn't hitler go to Heaven? Personally I think he was a complete $*%@&*)(% &^(&*%( !^&*%* with a real &$^%^&$(%^*&*^%^&*% but that's not the point. He was doing what HE considered to be right. taking that further, wouldn't it mean that some fates (and destinies) would be very strange, and in fact an intensely personal thing? so that if two different people did very different things, but with different views of it's rightness, couldn't one be fulfilling his fate and the other his destiny? I guess what I'm really asking is, in your version of the world, is it personal belief or some higher power which decides good, and if the second, how can I join the Rebellion? "No I do not serve Malphas" Jaak, Balseraph of Malphas ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:39:16 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Munchkin Player's Guide >Oh, hell, just do it if you have time. It would breathe some life back into the list.< Sorry, I only said "half-tempted." ;) Nowadays, I barely have enough time to write stuff I get paid for. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:46:10 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors >There's a difference between munchkinism and just player enough to get your character that far.< Well, gawllee! Guess I better go pump some supplements and practice my munchkindo so maybe someday I'll be player enough to hang in campaign like yours. ;) >And where did say anything about playing against other Superiors, we're only interested in playing out _becoming_ Superiors.< Yeah, acquiring godlike powers _would_ be kind of a drag if you actually had to deal with the fundamental principles involved with such beings. - -David (not player enough to have that many x.p.s....back in my AD&D days, I could never get my Paladin/Assassin/Magic-User/Thief past 47th level either, dangit!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:19:37 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The nature of evil >I was reading the fate section recently, and I came up with an >interesting queation which is doubtless going to get me in deep >Kim-chee, but, what the hell, I've always been suicidal. > Kim Chee can be some terrible stuff, especially in a Toon game. >My question is this. If fate is a deliberate choice to do evil, then >wouldn't hitler go to Heaven? Personally I think he was a complete >$*%@&*)(% &^(&*%( !^&*%* with a real &$^%^&$(%^*&*^%^&*% but that's not >the point. He was doing what HE considered to be right. taking that >further, wouldn't it mean that some fates (and destinies) would be very >strange, and in fact an intensely personal thing? so that if two >different people did very different things, but with different views of >it's rightness, couldn't one be fulfilling his fate and the other his >destiny? > I think this harkens back to the same duality between the Truth as a Seraph says it and the truth as a Balseraph believes it. One can be convinced of the rightness of their actions and the 'glory' of their Destiny, when in fact they're pursuing their Fate. 99.9% of all people *believe* they are good, doing good and certainly destined for Heaven -- but certainly in In Nomine 99.9% of people aren't heading in that direction. >I guess what I'm really asking is, in your version of the world, is it >personal belief or some higher power which decides good, and if the >second, how can I join the Rebellion? > In my version of the world, it is whether your actions have helped or hurt more people. It's how Selfishness/Selflessness can be reconciled with Good/Evil for my group -- take an Alistar Crowley view of it, in other words. An it harm none, do as thou wilt is essentially selfish, but not innately damning. Taking a purely selfish but nonaggressive view would lead to the cosmic recycling that's reserved for folks who achieve neither their Destiny nor their Fate (which is really most of the people most of the time.) People can achieve their Destiny, which *does* reach out and embrace others, all around them, but does not harm them. These people go to Heaven. People can achieve their Fate, which *does* reach out and affect others, all around them, and causes them harm. These people go to Hell. People can achieve both, in which case it comes down to the numbers. A man Destined to save an Endangered Species from extinction and Fated to cause the death of thousands would have to be judged based on which was stronger, if he achieved both. (My personal, non-Jordi bias would be Hell, in that case.) So, Hitler may have *believed* he was Right, but he was causing untold harm to people, blaming and scapegoating innocents, and leaving great, heaping Hell Tethers in his wake. He achieved his Fate, believing all the way it was a good thing, and in my game is roasting. What I have to wonder is... what if someone achieves their Fate, but doesn't die and does repent. Is there anything that can save them (assuming their Destiny is small, so achieving it doesn't counteract a really horrible Fate?) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 08:23:35 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> The nature of evil >I guess what I'm really asking is, in your version of the world, is it >personal belief or some higher power which decides good, and if the >second, how can I join the Rebellion? > 1) Good and evil, insofar as the concepts apply to the Symphony, are absolutes. A person with evil intent who does good will go to Hell; a person with good intentions who does evil will also go to Hell. However (as I have been hinted at) it's not enough just to do good or evil; those who are mediocre and achieve neither Fate nor Destiny are usually reincarnated for another try at it. To take Hitler for example; his Destiny was probably to become a landscape artist of renown, perhaps even found a school of thought in painting (the Crappy school? weirder things have happened). Instead, he found his Fate- to be responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of noncombatants in a great war which, in the end, destroyed his country. Redneck (of course, this system kind of negates the bit in H&H about Kronos' Children's Room) Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... respond to redneck@detnet.com please ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:32:23 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors >>There's a difference between munchkinism and just player enough to get >your character that far.< > >Well, gawllee! Guess I better go pump some supplements and practice my >munchkindo so maybe someday I'll be player enough to hang in campaign like >yours. ;) > You Are Not Player Enough! (In Nomine -- only on Nintendo 64.) >>And where did say anything about playing against other Superiors, we're >only interested in playing out _becoming_ >Superiors.< > >Yeah, acquiring godlike powers _would_ be kind of a drag if you actually >had to deal with the fundamental principles involved with such beings. > Don't *all* Celestials have godlike powers? ;) The thing is -- all PC Celestials can aspire and actively work towards being a Superior. They get Word-Bound, and then promote their word and build their strength, and ultimately accumulate enough forces and there you are. So, if your campaign runs, say, 2,000 years.... (Actually, I could see becoming a Superior in the course of a campaign happening in one (1) possible way -- and that is having a Word become so prevelant and powerful so fast that the Celestial who held that word would suddenly inflate up like a big old balloon of Forces. Of course, if the Word's power deflated, so would they, and no matter what happens this would be a very minor Superior... but there's no real way to predict what Words will suddenly become Big over the next few years, so *I* wouldn't count on it as a method of PC inflation. And remember, it still took Nybbas many years to go from Demon of Media to Demon *Prince* of Media -- and no PC should be able to do it any faster...) >-David (not player enough to have that many x.p.s....back in my AD&D days, >I could never get my Paladin/Assassin/Magic-User/Thief past 47th level >either, dangit!) With us, it was the hypnotic power of Deities and Demigods. They should *never* have given Zeus a hit point total.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:06:57 -0500 (EST) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors At 9:32 AM 3/3/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >The thing is -- all PC Celestials can aspire and actively work towards >being a Superior. They get Word-Bound, and then promote their word and >build their strength, and ultimately accumulate enough forces and there you >are. Of course. Promote your word, build your strength, gather your forces. That's how you do it. Just ask Furfur. - - Jason - --- jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life) werther@hilander.com (play) "But, except in dreams, you're never really free and don't the sun look angry at me?" _Desperadoes_Under_The_Eaves_, Warren Zevon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:59:52 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> The nature of evil On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 09:19:37AM -0500, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > I think this harkens back to the same duality between the Truth as a Seraph > says it and the truth as a Balseraph believes it. One can be convinced of > the rightness of their actions and the 'glory' of their Destiny, when in > fact they're pursuing their Fate. 99.9% of all people *believe* they are > good, doing good and certainly destined for Heaven - Only after they've spent some time lying to themselves. Before that they realised that they're doing the wrong thing. As one example, one thing I could be doing at this point is to type up the minutes for the last committee meeting of our gaming society, but instead I sit here mailing the IN list. It is clear to me that it is my duty to send out the minutes, but I'm too lazy to do so. However, within a week's time I will have forgotten about those minutes, and so even if I haven't sent them out, I won't worry about them. > >I guess what I'm really asking is, in your version of the world, is it > >personal belief or some higher power which decides good, and if the > >second, how can I join the Rebellion? > > In my version of the world, it is whether your actions have helped or hurt > more people. In my version of the world, both intent and action are necessary. Acting against one's own conscience is a definite wrong, whether it has "good" consequences or not. > So, Hitler may have *believed* he was Right, but he was causing untold harm > to people, blaming and scapegoating innocents, and leaving great, heaping > Hell Tethers in his wake. He achieved his Fate, believing all the way it > was a good thing, and in my game is roasting. > Even leaving aside such incidents as the Holocaust, it is quite clear that Hitler acted against the interests of his country by failing to make peace or step down when it was clear that the invasion of Russia had failed. He knew the war was lost, but wouldn't allow it to end because of his vanity. Even if he was the most racially tolerant man on Earth, that fact would certainly condemn him to Hell. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:14:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The nature of evil I think people like Hitler are a bit like balseraphim; they are insane *and* evil, because the flavor of evil they have chosen has driven them mad -- they *have* to be "right," to justify themselves to themselves and any relevant exterior audience. So, at some point, they have deliberately rejected rationality and sanity. That's assuming Hitler believed what he said. From the snippets of "Mein Kampf" I've seen here and there, he was also quite capable of deliberate, manipulative falsification. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 09:21:29 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> The nature of evil >What I have to wonder is... what if someone achieves their Fate, but >doesn't die and does repent. Is there anything that can save them >(assuming their Destiny is small, so achieving it doesn't counteract a >really horrible Fate?) > If the individual -truly- repented, that is changed themselves and their life completely, then I would say they would end up in Heaven, having achieved -a- Destiny (redemption). OTOH, if the individual only 'changed their mind' and remained the same person in all practical respects, Hell would have them. (Ex. Nathan Bedford Forrest, who 'changed his mind' about the KKK and tried to have it disbanded, but who remained a bully and fearmonger all his life.) Redneck Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... respond to redneck@detnet.com please ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:35:18 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Father of the Bride [plot hook] Great adventure seed with loads of roleplaying potential. One question: What about John? Unless his Forces were scattered, he has presumably checked in to Heaven and been escorted to Laurence's cathedral. I can quite see that Laurence wouldn't let him go to his daughter's wedding, and a thoughtful father wouldn't want to upset a daughter with apparitions, resurrections, or similar, but he might very well be supplying background information to the celestials, or even -- if Laurence is feeling particularly indulgent, as he seems to be in this instance -- lurking in the middle distance on Earth, in a shiny new vessel that does NOT look like his old body. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 11:07:13 -0500 From: Matthew Rice Subject: Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors David Edelstein wrote: > > Well, gawllee! Guess I better go pump some supplements and practice my > munchkindo so maybe someday I'll be player enough to hang in campaign like > yours. ;) > > Yeah, acquiring godlike powers _would_ be kind of a drag if you actually > had to deal with the fundamental principles involved with such beings. > > -David (not player enough to have that many x.p.s....back in my AD&D days, > I could never get my Paladin/Assassin/Magic-User/Thief past 47th level > either, dangit!) Whew! Temperature's dropping. Where'd I put my jacket? Who in their right mind would want to play a Superior, anyway? You get to (mostly) sit in Heaven and babysit hordes of minions without ever really getting to have fun. Now, a one-shot, munchkinoid, beer-and-pizza "Superior Deathmatch" game might be kind of fun... [Gabriel and Andrealphus square off in the ring] Referee: Let's get it on! [Andre, true to form, makes a rude suggestion along those lines.] [FOOSH.] Referee: The winner is...Gabriel! [etc., etc.] Matthew Rice (just 47th level? Weenie.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 11:27:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors Matthew Rice wrote: > Who in their right mind would want to play a Superior, anyway? You get > to (mostly) sit in Heaven and babysit hordes of minions without ever > really getting to have fun. Actually, some folk proposed using the Amber Diceless mechanics for IN exactly for playing Superiors. However, in this case, I thought the idea was to take a Worded PC and use promotion to Superior as a triumphal exit from PC status to NPC status, while the player started over again with a new PC. Campaign concept: In Nomine Genesis Well, *that* world was interesting. Now that Armageddon's over and the surviving souls and Superiors have all ascended to the Upper Heavens or descended to the Lower Hells, we have here a memo left by Yves. Says: "You'll have noticed the Corporeal plane is now without form and void, and the Ethereal plane isn't much better. You are invited to move over the face of the deep and get things going for the next cycle. With due diligence, some of you will be given Words from Upper Heaven, and those with Words that are strong enough will be made Superiors, to form the next Seraphim Council (or whatever you choose to call it). Good luck, keep busy, write if you get work, and God be with you." I regret to say, he does not say if anyone survived on the Other Side to carry on in a similar fashion. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 16:32:59 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:07:13AM -0500, Matthew Rice wrote: > Who in their right mind would want to play a Superior, anyway? You get > to (mostly) sit in Heaven and babysit hordes of minions without ever > really getting to have fun. > But that's what you're doing when you reach Baron/Master level anyway. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 17:04:44 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Tethers and Windies (and Mercurians!) On Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 04:50:47PM -0500, EDG wrote: > Not how I read it... IMO the counter resets after three days, so a > Windie in a Tether for three weeks would take 7 dissonance and only lose > 3; starting with 2 notes already, therefore, would make it nearly > impossible NOT to be Outcast/to Fall. > Well, the way I read it, Windies and Thieves don't get dissonance for spending long periods of time in a Tether (boredom, quite possibly). The reasoning is simple: a Tether to a Word is a place so strongly linked to that Word that it creates a connection to the Celestial Realm. Given that that is what a Tether is, in what way can you become dissonant to that particular Word simply by remaining in it? Of course, the week of duties in the Tether may well include doing things that are technically outside the Tether, especially given that Windies are notorious busybodies, and Thieves are probably lazy enough to want to get other people to do their work for them (and look, here's someone who wants me to help get rid of their dissonance...), but they're still operating from the Tether, which is what counts, IMO. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:19:19 -0500 From: Matthew Rice Subject: Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors Kevin Walsh wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:07:13AM -0500, Matthew Rice wrote: > > Who in their right mind would want to play a Superior, anyway? You get > > to (mostly) sit in Heaven and babysit hordes of minions without ever > > really getting to have fun. > > > But that's what you're doing when you reach Baron/Master level anyway. > > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. > -- Not necessarily; at that level, you may also have a word that requires your presence in the Corporeal realm quite a bit. And if you don't have a word, you're going to be expected to endorse your Superior's word just like you have been doing, only more so ("In return for your fine work on that job, I've decided to give you a bigger job. Don't screw up."). And you can't really get good minions. You may stay in contact with a Soldier or eight, and if you're a Word-bound you might have a lesser Celestial or two helping out; but if you're a Superior, you have to play puppet-master on a whole different level entirely. Distinctions, feh. All you get are tougher jobs, and more blame when things go wrong. Oh, and other Celestials are polite to you (to your face, rather). Matthew Rice Mercurian of Wind, Angel of Road Trips ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:42:13 -0800 From: darkelf Subject: IN> Re: Father of the Bride > [NB. I was going to write this up as a fully detailed scenario, but it was > getting a bit long -- these are the basics] > Wonderful. How'd you know I needed a plot hook...? Kat Cherub of Creation - -- "I'll be okay as long as no one tries to interact with me in any way." -- Daria "You don't have it, you can't buy it, and you just don't get it." -- Aeon Flux ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 17:51:16 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:19:19PM -0500, Matthew Rice wrote: > > > Who in their right mind would want to play a Superior, anyway? You get > > > to (mostly) sit in Heaven and babysit hordes of minions without ever > > > really getting to have fun. > > But that's what you're doing when you reach Baron/Master level anyway. > > > Not necessarily; at that level, you may also have a word that requires > your presence in the Corporeal realm quite a bit. And if you don't have > a word, you're going to be expected to endorse your Superior's word just > like you have been doing, only more so That can be said of any level, but the more important you become, the more you have to delegate, because you're not going to be able to cope with all the work you're given on your own. ("In return for your fine work on > that job, I've decided to give you a bigger job. Don't screw up."). > But the pension benefits are remarkable! Especially since your life expectancy is 17 months after retirement. > And you can't really get good minions. You may stay in contact with a > Soldier or eight, and if you're a Word-bound you might have a lesser > Celestial or two helping out; Perhaps you should be introduced to the concept of hierarchy. Soldiers answer to Celestials who answer to more important Celestials. but if you're a Superior, you have to play > puppet-master on a whole different level entirely. > Oh, indubitably. But that's like saying being on the general staff is much more remote from the field than commanding a division. It's true, but you're still mainly involved in paperwork at the divisional commander level. > Distinctions, feh. All you get are tougher jobs, and more blame when > things go wrong. Oh, and other Celestials are polite to you (to your > face, rather). > I don't see it being a terribly common thing for it to work like that. Even Windies get administration to do. (Where administration is defined as "Find out where she's gotten to this time and tell her to fly to New York. No, I don't know where her Heart is. And no, she doesn't usually keep her phone turned on.") And it does have uses, because it's a lot easier to get favours off people. Work carefully, and you can use those favours to pay off other favours. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 18:04:27 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: Father of the Bride On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:42:13AM -0800, darkelf wrote: > > [NB. I was going to write this up as a fully detailed scenario, but it was > > getting a bit long -- these are the basics] > > > > > Wonderful. How'd you know I needed a plot hook...? > Files. It was all in the files. (Of course, praise is due to Jo, and to Eric for his bit about the Judgement angel. And David must be encouraged to write the Munchkin's Player's Guide.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:20:47 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The nature of evil At 10:56 PM -0800 3/2/99, Hydrax 59 wrote: >I guess what I'm really asking is, in your version of the world, is it >personal belief or some higher power which decides good, and if the >second, how can I join the Rebellion? Habbalah think they serve God too, remember... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:20:46 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: ADMIN: Watch it... (Re: IN> Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors) Chill, people, it's gone beyond cute and is edging to flame. - --Beth, Demon Princess of List Admin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:29:04 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Bored IN Nomine: Vurt anyone? "And if you burn my bodyguard I can heat your long lost pal" (You Can Call Belial, Paul Simon) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:29:10 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Bored IN Nomine: Vurt anyone? "And if you burn my bodyguard I can heat your long lost pal" (You Can Call Belial, Paul Simon) Martin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:46:57 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Father of the Bride [plot hook] Jo -- I love the plot hook. The only think I'd add would be a Servitor of Kobal infiltrating the caterers, but then I've always been one for Kobal's influence, even in my own life.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:43:15 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Advancement (was Are you player enough? Hangin' with the Superiors) At 5:51 PM +0000 3/3/99, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:19:19PM -0500, Matthew Rice wrote: >> > > Who in their right mind would want to play a Superior, anyway? You get >> > > to (mostly) sit in Heaven and babysit hordes of minions without ever >> > > really getting to have fun. > >> > But that's what you're doing when you reach Baron/Master level anyway. >> > >> Not necessarily; at that level, you may also have a word that requires >> your presence in the Corporeal realm quite a bit. And if you don't have >> a word, you're going to be expected to endorse your Superior's word just >> like you have been doing, only more so > >That can be said of any level, but the more important you become, the more >you have to delegate, because you're not going to be able to cope with all >the work you're given on your own. > This puts me in mind of career paths. (Dear Lord, I knew I shouldn't have gone into the real world to work....) There are two different ways for a Celestial to go within the framework of their Superior. One, they can build their way up the Celestial ranks with Attunements and Distinctions, and eventually be awarded a Word. This word acts as a subsection of the Superior's word, and the Celestial then becomes sort of an independent consultant/project manager, trusted to not have huge Supervision in the promotion and development of that Word in society. I assume most Word Bound PC's would go this route. With time, a Celestial might be granted extra Distinctions (beyond Baron or even only up to Baron), and he might recruit a few lesser Servitors or be assigned them by the Superior as needed, building his own little base surrounding and enhancing his Word (and the Superior's Word through it). Secondly, a Celestial might work his way up the Organizational path, getting higher Distinctions, being put into a middle management or even lower-upper management position. He oversees the framework and support structure and helps plan larger and larger overall strategies, working a lot more closely (and taking more direct direction) by his Superior, while taking pressures off that Superior. After a time, this Count/Marquis/etc. may also be awarded a Word -- likely one that much more directly ties to the Superior's Word, and one that powerful or not might not need so much direct work to promote it. (Janus's word is Wind. He may have a Servitor whose word is the Jetstream. Not a lot of work needs to be done to promote the Jetstream as opposed to promoting Wind, but it is still a powerful Word - -- ask any meteorologist). These middle-managers I see as mostly being NPC in nature. Some Superiors will weigh more heavily towards one advancement path or the other. Dominic, Asmodeus, Baal, Laurence, Jean and Yves would all have a lot of the second type of advancement -- the structure is very important, and moving within the structure is the best way to advance. Others naturally will gravitate towards the first (Janus, Lilith, Michael, Eli, Sagemia [whose name I can never spell from memory] and other disorganized sorts will far more likely give rising stars a Word and cut them loose than give them the big cubicle and have them file weekly reports). And some go either way easily enough. Gabriel, Marc, Kobal, Andre and so forth would need a good support structure and a good number of independent operatives alike. The Independent, Word-Bound Celestial would have a lot better chances for rapid growth and enhancement. Free to chart his or her own destiny, they could really push their Word *hard* and get the rewards of it. And, as with any other high-risk advancement path, they can crash and burn *much* more easily. The organizational path is slower, but much safer. Over a long period of time, a Celestial can go very far -- and they have eternity, after all. (This doesn't count fits of rage for certain Fire-based Superiors or your Superior disliking your report and eating you with tea, of course -- but no one said advancement was risk free in any path.) >Perhaps you should be introduced to the concept of hierarchy. Soldiers >answer to Celestials who answer to more important Celestials. > Hierarchy (or to put it into middle age terms, the Great Chain of Being) is all well and good for some Superiors. For others it's not so important, and almost all Superiors will have some Celestials who are Word-Bound and effectively doing their own thing in their own way and time, with only occasional direction. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:03:07 -0500 (EST) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> Bored At 10:29 AM 3/3/99, Martin Arnold wrote: >IN Nomine: Vurt anyone? Ooh. I like. :) - - J - --- jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life) werther@hilander.com (play) "But, except in dreams, you're never really free and don't the sun look angry at me?" _Desperadoes_Under_The_Eaves_, Warren Zevon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:01:05 GMT From: kiki@enteract.com Subject: IN> Any players in the Chicagoland Area? Hi! Does ayone out there play in the Chicagoland Area? I'd really love to give in nomine a shot, but I don't know anyone in the area who is interested. Thanks, Caren kiki@enteract.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:26:56 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Father of the Bride [plot hook] Thanks, everyone ;) >One question: What about John? Unless his Forces were >scattered, he has presumably checked in to Heaven and been >escorted to Laurence's cathedral. Oh, that's a good point :) I've never been clear on how involved with their mortal lives the blessed souls are supposed to be... >, but he might >very well be supplying background information to the celestials, That, definitely. Even if he was't permitted to return to earth, he migth be able to help send messages to the mrotals in dreams or something.. Or maybe it requires that someone has to think of going to find him. >or even -- if Laurence is feeling particularly indulgent, as >he seems to be in this instance -- lurking in the middle >distance on Earth, in a shiny new vessel that does NOT look >like his old body. It's not canon to give souls extended earth-leave, but I really like that image. It's kind of sad but sweet. jo (And I really should have thanked Maya for twisting my arm into actually writing that down, and suggesting the gay rights demo. I'm not sure if this is how she meant it, but once I had the mental image of a drag queen in a frilly wedding dress hitching up her sleeves and socking a demon in the face .. it just had to go in) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:46:43 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Father of the Bride [plot hook] In a message dated 3/3/99 9:41:35 AM Central Standard Time, earlw@mc.com writes: > One question: What about John? Unless his Forces were > scattered, he has presumably checked in to Heaven and been > escorted to Laurence's cathedral. He could have gone straight to the Higher Heavens. Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:57:02 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? Dear List, A quick question. In Fall of The Malakim, the write-up of LA says (paraphrasing) that Asmodeus has several demons working the airports, keeping an eye out for angels as they arrive. My question is how the hell are they doing this? Asmodeus can tune his demons so they can detect their own Bands, but AFAIK, he can't tune them in to Choirs. So (apart from the obvious stuff such as extended background checks which would take longer than the author implies), does anyone have any idea how this concept (which defines a lot of why LA doesn't have many angels) could actually work? It's been causing me Dissonance from confusion.. Leath (Servitor of Kobal, in service to Beth due to Fear). ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1133 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.