From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Mar 7 12:37:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05690 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:37:49 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA17414 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:36:56 -0600 Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:36:56 -0600 Message-Id: <199903071836.MAA17414@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1136 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, March 7 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1136 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: Nature of evil Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? Re: IN> Re: Nature of evil Re: IN> Re: Nature of evil Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) IN> Question: Songs of Shields IN> Celestial Capture IN> Re: nature of evil IN> Calabim/ofanim Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) Re: IN> Calabim/ofanim Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) RE: IN> Re: nature of evil Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 14:39:19 -0500 (EST) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> Re: Nature of evil At 1:32 PM 3/6/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >>A Seraph tells the truth. A Balseraph has people believe him. >>A Mercurian loves humanity. An Impudite gets people to adore him. >>An Ofanite moves swiftly. A Calabite _gets_obstacles_out_of_his_way_. >Hm. Selfless figuring out of the swiftest path versus selfish knocking >things in your way into their component atoms? Kinda. I see the demonic band-natures as attempts to maintain the benefits of their former angelic natures, but without any of the self-discipline or the work. The calabite's resonance is a big "Get Outta My Way!" to the symphony. - - J - --- jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life) werther@hilander.com (play) "But, except in dreams, you're never really free and don't the sun look angry at me?" _Desperadoes_Under_The_Eaves_, Warren Zevon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 14:47:26 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Perhaps its my willingness to depart from the text in order to fit it into > my world view (so I may have 'accepted' a lot of things others wouldn't in > the adventure part). Perhaps my brain pan is soft and needs a fluid > upgrade, but I really liked the supplement. I also liked the formation of > Los Angeles as the East Berlin of In Nomine. Especially with San Francisco > a few hours away as the West Berlin. Yes, I think there are a number of > 'hidden spies' in each city (and who knows how many Soldiers), but mass > invasions would trigger things no one wanted to trigger just yet.... But you've just mentioned one of the problems. If there is even one undetected angel snooping around LA, then the entire plot of the main adventure is a non-starter; the conditions of the Prophecy won't be fulfilled. And how many Servitors of the Game are involved in watching the entry points to the city (airports, port, bus stations, train stations, major freeways)? When did Scamper and Scurvy deal with them? Even with the loosest posssible reading of the prophecy, I bet a couple of them would have needed offing. And none of the others (or any demons that the Game has in town to keep an eye on the other demons) were awfully curious at the several thousand point Disturbance that took place in Orange County? And LA is not at all like East Berlin; I was in both before the Wall came down. East Berlin was very visibly oppressive, not like IN:LA, where the controls have to remain under wraps to keep the War hidden. To get into East Berlin, *everyone* was stopped and questioned, if only briefly. Whether this was done for security or to make sure that you exchanged 25DM of real currency for their Monopoly money is unclear, but it happened. And the security forces were in evidence every time you turned around while you wandered the city. Maintaining this level of security takes *a lot* of manpower, or even celestialpower. Far more than is described in FotM. Is it a cool setting for IN? Yes, as long as you don't think very hard about whether it's actually plausible. Actually, the city itself might work if you don't demand of it the extremes that the title adventure does. And the adventure has more credibility issues than just this one. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 16:38:55 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Re: Nature of evil At 1:32 PM -0500 3/6/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Hm. Selfless figuring out of the swiftest path versus selfish knocking >things in your way into their component atoms? > >Maybe. ;) It makes some sense to me, at least. I still don't find the fit >to be perfect, but neither do I have to. > In my mind, Ofanim Move. They move fast, they move far, and they move themselves. But not only do they simply move themselves, it's *purposeful* motion. They aren't Kyriotates, so the whole Ofanite moves in one direction at one time. That direction may change after the next millisecond, or after the next year, but it's at least, at any one time, headed somewhere distinct.. Trying to move in more than one direction at a time is *worse* than not moving at all. It's indecisiveness, and that is what those Impulsive Ofanim must avoid. Pick a direction and move in it. Maybe it was the wrong direction, you'll no better the next time, and at any rate, it was better than not doing so. Calabim Move things. They move them slower and not as far as the Ofanim. Sometimes it's moving a fist into the gut of an unruly pizza boy. Sometimes it's moving a bullet through the head of the neighbor's ugly cat. They pick up the plates in the china shop and move them towards the wall. But the most fundamental way that Calabim move things is when they use their Resonance. They reach out and they attempt to move things, but the Purpose, the Drive, that Ofanim have is forever denied them. They reach out and they try to move the object in *every direction at once.* Or at least, that's the way I see it. YMMV ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Tasha, Balseraph Knight of Factions, the Alternate Angel of Political Correctness. | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 16:12:25 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Re: Nature of evil Whistling in the Dark wrote: > I *love* the Elohim/Habbalah duality -- of all the bright/dark versions, > it's one of the two that *truly* resonates for me. (The other is > Cherub/Djinn.) > > Elohite -- Objective. Strives to see all viewpoints and eliminate > personal (selfish) feelings in lieu of finding the true and proper > (selfless) course of action. > > Habbalite -- Subjective. *Only* sees and believes his own > viewpoint, and is enraged when others disagree with it. Selfishly imposes > his own emotional reactions onto others to force them to agree with him. > Monomaniacally inflicts punishment on "wrongdoers" (meaning people who > disagree with him). > > For a Habbalite to believe his subjective point of view is utterly correct, > he has to believe it was ordained. This is the crucial difference between > the Habbalah and the Balseraphs -- the Balseraphs know they're demons, but > have forced their worldview to affirm that they're right and God/the angels > are wrong. Habbalah believe that they're right and God *must* know it, and > everyone else is hateful and jealous. > > (The duality that I have the most trouble with is Calabim/Ofanim -- I just > don't see how desperate motion Falls into desperate destruction. The > latter doesn't seem like selfish motion to me.) As someone else put it back a while ago, the Ofanim embody motion -- drive, energy, action. So do the Calabim. With the Ofanim, the energy is internalized -- the rest of the world stands relatively still while they act/move. When Ofanim fall, this energy is a painful reminder of what they once were, so the Ofan pushes it out, externalizing it -- the Calabite stands [relatively] still while the energy razes unholy hell around them, like a berserk nuclear-powered poltergeist. Because it is _their_ energy, Calabim can direct it, focus it, point it at a specific target, but doing so opens a feedback channel, allowing them to connect with the energy that was once contained within them. When the Calabim resonance works, this energy is safely used outside the demon. But when it is resisted, if the Calabite can't find a new target, then the energy flows back inside them, along that feedback channel, once more filling them and reminding them of what they could be/might yet be/once were, creating a disharmony between the demon's heart and the demon -- in IN terms, he eats dissonance. From the other side of the street, the Ofan who _chooses_ to do nothing, to remain inactive, can only do so by dissipating the energy that is a part of him, holding it enclosed but outside himself -- by taking the first step towards becoming a Calabite. This causes pain and distress to the Ofan's heart -- again, in IN terms, the angel eats dissonance. Or so someone else once managed to explain it so that it made sense to me. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven. - -- "it's a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milkbone underwear" Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:53:21 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? >Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >> Perhaps its my willingness to depart from the text in order to fit it into >> my world view (so I may have 'accepted' a lot of things others wouldn't in >> the adventure part). Perhaps my brain pan is soft and needs a fluid >> upgrade, but I really liked the supplement. I also liked the formation of >> Los Angeles as the East Berlin of In Nomine. Especially with San Francisco >> a few hours away as the West Berlin. Yes, I think there are a number of >> 'hidden spies' in each city (and who knows how many Soldiers), but mass >> invasions would trigger things no one wanted to trigger just yet.... > >But you've just mentioned one of the problems. If there is even one >undetected >angel snooping around LA, then the entire plot of the main adventure is a >non-starter; the conditions of the Prophecy won't be fulfilled. Definitely a problem, but not an insurmountable one. The Superiors who wanted to trigger the Prophecy (I'm trying not to Spoil here) have been carefully working on this for a while. Probably a *long* while. I play true Celestials as being moderately rare -- there may be a lot of them, but most of them aren't on Earth, and that's the way all Superiors want it -- less chance of discovery that way. So, the specific Superiors in question who're setting this up start causing trouble elsewhere. Not far away, but not close enough, either. They do this for a while, carefully draining Heavenly resources away from a city that's already a demonic stronghold. And at the same time they do sweeps, looking. Tightening things. Getting a better handle on who's around. And then, they take a risk. A big one. And if they don't *quite* pull it off, they've still accomplished one major event. And they fall back on plan B. (You *know* they had a plan B.) Finally... which Superior is coordinating activities spying on the Demons in LA? Laurence, the General of the War. Dominic's got other fish to fry, Michael's busy taking the war in other directions, and David just uses LA as a dumping ground. Laurence... who's not the hardest pug to fool. He can't get 'devious' into his head, remember. That makes it more possible. The one thing I'm sure of -- *post* FotM, the Angelic Superiors would make sure the conditions were never replicated. But hindsight will do that to you. (Am I justifying? Sure -- I can't *argue* that the problem isn't there. But so long as I *can* justify, my opinion on the adventure's merits doesn't change.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 19:23:49 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Malakim hate this as much as anyone else does, but they endure it -- over > and over and over again -- until finally, they let go of parts of themself. > In a way, they stop letting themselves love their connections to the > Symphony, to sensation, so that the shock of that Corporeal death is no > longer a shock, but an inevitability. Perhaps this is a part of why they > can't Fall -- when you have let that part of yourself die, it cannot be > turned in on itself to stare inward into its own personal Hellish Symphony. Overall, I would say that this was really good. However, I disagree with your assessment of the Malakim. I think that they have just embraced Miyamoto Musashi's axiom that "the way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death". They are immune to Trauma not because something has died inside them, but because they accept that death is part of their calling, and therefore it has no terror for them. IMHO, of course. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 18:22:54 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Finally... which Superior is coordinating activities spying on the Demons > in LA? Laurence, the General of the War. Dominic's got other fish to fry, Um. Laurence may or may not be coordinating spying on the demons in LA. Dominic is in charge of spying on the *angels* in LA, several of which (not just Max!) ought to be yanked out of LA and put on Heaven-side duty for a few years. Let's do a role call: Maximillian looks to me like an experiment to see if Malakim can't Fall, can they be *pushed*? David hasn't checked up on him once in the past umpteen years? If Dominic knew, he would throw a fit, not because of the torture but because of the carelessness. And the Inquisition *can* take Max out of LA, by claiming their own right to try him. Mira the Inquisition probably has no claim on, but she just screams out for reassignment. Screams out worse than Max, actually. What is a Bright Lilim doing in a demon-controlled city where the Game can find her at any time? What the *hell* is an angel with a major Geas owed _directly to a Demon Prince_ doing where it's most convenient for a Prince to call it in? For that matter, why in the world is a Bright Lilim on permanent duty in one location; Heaven only has a dozen or so, they all ought to spend most of their time on special assignments. Okay, none of that's really the Inquisition's business. She's also suspiciously friendly with the demons, not enough to merit punishment, but plenty enough reason for the Inquisition to harass her on a regular basis and maybe even try to pressure Blandine. Sarama's doing his job. No reason for him to be pulled out of LA. Pendrake Carmichael has slipped so far that he's basically working for the demons in LA. He merits a punishment worse than Heaven-side duty, and the Inquisition has plenty of cause to claim jurisdiction over him. Jonathan only just got there. The angels in LA are a mess. It's natural enough for that to happen when they have to exist in a demon-controlled environment, but when an angel starts to lose his balance as badly as Max and Pendrake have it's the Inquisitions's job to punish them for the minor stuff before they start doing worse. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 19:22:28 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? >>>Besides, they don't have to catch every angel trying to slip in. They just have to catch a few. And tear apart their vessels and drag their celestial forms to Hell where they are imprisoned and tortured, their forces slowly torn from their forms and their knowledge painfully extracted from them until there is nothing but a quiet sob in the Symphony where they used to be.<<< How exactly would that be done? A Prince _might_ be able to snatch an angel's celestial form as it ascends to Heaven in Trauma, but ordinary demons certainly can't. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 18:31:39 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > When an Angel's vessel is killed, the Angel is torn, violently, from the > Corporeal realm. In so happening, he is also torn away from the Symphony > and thrown into another part of it. For a brief second, he is utterly, > totally and completely *alone* in a way he would never thought possible. > For that brief second, he can *understand* Mortality. He can even > understand what it is like to Fall, as his own notes, as hurt as they are, > are the only ones he can hear. [...] Way cool. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 19:33:50 -0800 From: EDG Subject: IN> Question: Songs of Shields Thinking about recent events in our game, I became curious about the canon workings of the Songs of Shields. To be more specific, what effects do the Songs have in the various realms? Does Celestial Shields produce a barrier, a la Corporeal Shields, in the Celestial realm? If so, can this be used to prevent a celestial from returning to her Heart - or to trap one after the death of its corporeal body? - -a curious EDG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 23:07:35 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> Celestial Capture David Edelstein writes: >>>>Besides, they don't have to catch every angel trying to slip in. They >just >have to catch a few. And tear apart their vessels and drag their celestial >forms to Hell where they are imprisoned and tortured, their forces slowly >torn from their forms and their knowledge painfully extracted from them >until there is nothing but a quiet sob in the Symphony where they used to >be.<<< > > >How exactly would that be done? A Prince _might_ be able to snatch an >angel's celestial form as it ascends to Heaven in Trauma, but ordinary >demons certainly can't. Er... well, I.... But EDG writes: >Thinking about recent events in our game, I became curious about the >canon workings of the Songs of Shields. > >To be more specific, what effects do the Songs have in the various >realms? Does Celestial Shields produce a barrier, a la Corporeal >Shields, in the Celestial realm? > >If so, can this be used to prevent a celestial from returning to her >Heart - or to trap one after the death of its corporeal body? > Yeah! Yeah! That's it! That's what I was thinking of when I was talking about Celestial Capture by the Game in that earlier post! Honest! Why are you looking at me like that.... Seriously, I shouldn't have described the above in the way that I did. A capture is still likely the Game's objective (by using the appropriate Songs or relics to either inflict Ethereal damage or otherwise render the invader unable to defend or else to force him into Celestial form, then bringing him someplace where a Superior or other being with the power to capture an Angel and bring him to Hell) if possible, since the only reason an unannounced Angel would go to such a Demon controlled location would be 'nefarious.' Clearly, killing the Angel corporeally would be counterproductive to that. My error. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 22:12:36 PST From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Re: nature of evil Okay,how about this. In your view, could someone ever be fated if they followed their own personal honour systems - acting out what they saw as good. By this I mean acting towards what they consider right. So could a dictator do terrible things if HE believed that it was nessecary for the welfare of the country. Actually, this would make the Malakim a lot more powerful as it would allow them to see a persons good/evilness relative to that persons own standerds. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 22:25:15 PST From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Calabim/ofanim I always saw ofanim as divine messangers, the very agents of movement, whereas Calabim had been forced to stop and internalise their movement, so that they had this movement inside themself, and the only way they could feel better is to take it out on others. Classical bully boy behaviour. And somehow, they learnt that they could take this whirling inside themselves and push it out upon something else. And that felt good, because for a couple of moments, they weren't getting internally ripped apart. And so they kept on doing it. P.S. has anyone else ever thought that every time any calabim uses his resonance, Belial grows? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 00:37:45 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Besides, they don't have to catch every angel trying to slip in. They just > have to catch a few. And tear apart their vessels and drag their celestial > forms to Hell And just how are three 7-Force demons (assuming all three are present at the time) supposed to accomplish this? > (I'd even jack it up a little, in my campaign. Say, make International > Customs a Tether of the Game. It sure seems that way to me sometimes....) Now *that* might do something. If angels are spotted, powerful reinforcements arrive through the (possibly Quiet) Game-Tether, armed with anything appropriate.... You couldn't make it impossible to arrive through the airport, but you could make it risky enough that angels would invariably drive in instead. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:11:32 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? At 12:37 AM -0600 3/7/99, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >> Besides, they don't have to catch every angel trying to slip in. They just >> have to catch a few. And tear apart their vessels and drag their celestial >> forms to Hell > >And just how are three 7-Force demons (assuming all three are present at >the time) supposed to accomplish this? > I concede the point. Heck, I'll concede the match -- too much evidence being piled up. I now shift the official rating of FotM to "gave me some great ideas after fixing the mistakes" since clearly I'm tweaking beyond all possible hope. ;) >> (I'd even jack it up a little, in my campaign. Say, make International >> Customs a Tether of the Game. It sure seems that way to me sometimes....) > >Now *that* might do something. If angels are spotted, powerful >reinforcements arrive through the (possibly Quiet) Game-Tether, armed >with anything appropriate.... You couldn't make it impossible to arrive >through the airport, but you could make it risky enough that angels would >invariably drive in instead. > Which is what they'd be shooting for, really. Something to make it harder to bring forces in from all sides and points of entry at once. So, the real question... how long before Gabriel declares the entire Valley cruel and triggers the San Andreas Fault? - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 01:41:12 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> FoTM: Asmodeus' Angel Spotters??? Whistling in the Dark wrote: > And then, they take a risk. A big one. And if they don't *quite* pull it > off, they've still accomplished one major event. And they fall back on > plan B. (You *know* they had a plan B.) Actually, I have trouble buying this, too. What's written in the adventure strikes me as very much an All Your Eggs in One Basket proposition. Should Gabriel's Horn not go off, the boys are going to be hip deep in the smelly stuff. Kobal's Servitors wiped out the Infernal community in LA, or at least the parts of it the writer remembered at the time. In the process, it's quite likely that at least one Tether of one of their nominal allies got destroyed (Enfer Fleur or Pico Plaza). And how many questions are going to be asked about where Scamper and Scurvy got a hold of that much Essence? Absent the panic of the start of Armageddon, it isn't going to take Heaven long to realize that Max's "Fall" was a con job. As Grand Moff Tarkin said, "This had better work." > Finally... which Superior is coordinating activities spying on the Demons > in LA? Laurence, the General of the War. Dominic's got other fish to fry, > Michael's busy taking the war in other directions, and David just uses LA > as a dumping ground. Laurence... who's not the hardest pug to fool. He > can't get 'devious' into his head, remember. That makes it more possible. How about Blandine? People keep mentioning all of these militant Archangels as if they were the biggest problem and that they're keeping an eye on the demons. My money is on the Archangel of Dreams to have someone or two in town keeping an eye on the humans. Not so much Mira, who's so valuable that she needs to be frying a big fish all the time. Just a simple Menunite wandering the city dishing out some hope here and there with orders to absolutely, positively make no disturbance so that the demons will never know that he's there; that's the way the Menunite would want it anyways. Ah, they're wonderful creatures; I'm really looking forward to some other game so I actually get to run Gernam. > The one thing I'm sure of -- *post* FotM, the Angelic Superiors would make > sure the conditions were never replicated. But hindsight will do that to > you. > > (Am I justifying? Sure -- I can't *argue* that the problem isn't there. > But so long as I *can* justify, my opinion on the adventure's merits > doesn't change.) Maybe not. But you've got a lot of justifying to do. If it were only the question of making sure that there weren't any angels left in LA, I might buy it. There are *a lot* of things that ignore credibility in FotM, and even more in FT. The only way it works is if you can keep from thinking about it, because that many tortured arguments become ridiculous. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 09:46:22 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) Steve Jessop wrote: > >On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Matthew Rice wrote: > >> Goes without saying, since a celestial can get away with it. Knowing >> when to die is very important, but it's something that should be done >> with forethought, and without a cavalier ("Oh, well, it's only a week or >> two of Trauma.") attitude. > >Very much depends on the flavour of your campaign. For thigh-slpping, >leather-trousered heroes of Heaven, it may well be a case of 'Death? Only >a flesh wound my dear chap! Last one back to his Heart is a rotten egg!' > >For IN meets Kult, it might well be more along the lines of 'Death? >Meep!' Trauma> I'm not sure I agree. Look at all the stories of the saints; these were mostly the sort of people who first praise God and then laugh in your face as you strangled them with their own intestines. Angels should certainly be able to exhibit that level of devotion without any trouble; they are on Earth for His purposes, not their own. Of course, if you want scary angels, Trauma should be as horrifying and painful and agonizing as you can imagine - -- and then let angels willingly choose to die for a chance to share some of the glory of the martyr. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:04:25 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Calabim/ofanim In a message dated 3/7/99 12:28:18 AM Central Standard Time, hydrax@hotmail.com writes: > has anyone else ever thought that every time any calabim uses his > resonance, Belial grows? That's probably why Belial's own Calabim are so bad-ass. Honestly, isn't Calabim of Fire the demon character every munchkin on earth wants to play? Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:40:33 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) >Steve Jessop wrote: >> >>On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Matthew Rice wrote: >> >>> Goes without saying, since a celestial can get away with it. Knowing >>> when to die is very important, but it's something that should be done >>> with forethought, and without a cavalier ("Oh, well, it's only a week or >>> two of Trauma.") attitude. >> >>Very much depends on the flavour of your campaign. For thigh-slpping, >>leather-trousered heroes of Heaven, it may well be a case of 'Death? Only >>a flesh wound my dear chap! Last one back to his Heart is a rotten egg!' >> >>For IN meets Kult, it might well be more along the lines of 'Death? >>Meep!' >Trauma> > >I'm not sure I agree. Look at all the stories of the saints; these were >mostly the sort of people who first praise God and then laugh in your face >as you strangled them with their own intestines. Angels should certainly be >able to exhibit that level of devotion without any trouble; they are on >Earth for His purposes, not their own. Of course, if you want scary angels, >Trauma should be as horrifying and painful and agonizing as you can imagine >-- and then let angels willingly choose to die for a chance to share some of >the glory of the martyr. > Well sure. But that to me reinforces the horrible aspects of death for Celestials, not the opposite. Martyrdom only makes sense if death is more than a mild inconvenience and a middle-management nightmare. I think most angels will happily sacrifice themselves for the cause, but they won't do it (even "merely" corporeally) lightly. (Though I could see a form of Discord that would work that way...) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:52:01 -0500 From: "Sheep Boy" Subject: RE: IN> Re: nature of evil Hydrax 59 wrote: > Okay,how about this. In your view, could someone ever be > fated if they > followed their own personal honour systems - acting out > what they saw as > good. By this I mean acting towards what they consider > right. So could a > dictator do terrible things if HE believed that it was > nessecary for the > welfare of the country. Taking the language used in the books, I would say yes, one can reach his/her Fate while following their personal honor systems. Hitler seems to be the common example, and the writeup of Destiny and Fate in the core book tells us he reached his Fate, while the Malakim writeup in the APG makes it clear he was acting completely in line with his own moral standards. > Actually, this would make the Malakim a lot more powerful > as it would > allow them to see a persons good/evilness relative to that > persons own > standerds. I believe this is explicitly the case. This is the _only_ way in which the Malakite resonance will perform. - Stavro +-stavro@crackden.org-------------------------ICQ#18493910-+ | "Cinema, simulated life and trauma | | Birthright, culture, Americana" | | - Rage Against the Machine, "No Shelter" | +----------------http://www.crackden.org/------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 18:17:01 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark > Martyrdom only makes sense if death is more >than a mild inconvenience and a middle-management nightmare. I think most >angels will happily sacrifice themselves for the cause, but they won't do >it (even "merely" corporeally) lightly. I don't think 'fear of death' for celestials is the same as it is for mortals. When a human sacrifices his life for a cause he is making the ultimate sacrifice; he doesn't know if there is anything afterwards but he chooses to do it anyway. When a celestial sacrifices a vessel, it has a pretty good idea what will happen, and knows that it will return to its heart, hopefully for a period of trauma which is not too long. It's still preferable to avoid this, but it isn't the same thing at all. I think it's useful to bring out this difference by not having the celestials fret too much about losing vessels, if they have no alternative. When both sides know that it is only a temporary inconvenience, they'll calculate that into their battle plans. So take out that demon's vessel if you have something specific you need him out of the way for in the short term -- but as a long term enemy, you might almost be better to cultivate him from a distance, build up some kind of working 'relationship' and learn how his nasty little mind works. Otherwise, Hell will only send someone else. Sure, it's undesirable. However, angels do know that their superior will do everything it can to look after them and see them through it, whilst demons tend to have better willpower, and are probably more practiced at acquiring 'spare' vessels -- just in case. An angel or demon who displays undue concern at the prospect of corporeal death should probably be picked up by Judment or the Game -- celestials are not supposed to succumb to these little mortal luxuries. Undue concern here probably has to be a fairly extreme reaction :) Perhaps the only reason vessels can die at all, was so that angels could try to understand the mortal fear of death. Otherwise, life to an angel is awfully simple. You live a good life, you die, you go to heaven. What's the problem? I think all the examples of really grotty vessels were demonic ones, which figures -- demon princes come in two main flavours, the sociopathic and the merely psychotic. Both types are characterised by extreme monomania and sadistic tendencies, and a lack of ability to distinguish between their pet fantasies and real life (put them all in Arkham Asylum, I say). But a useful demon (hopefully your PCs or important NPCs fall into this category) is likely to be talent spotted by one of the prince's more competent flunkies (i.e.. one whose neck is on the line if the current pet scheme/ tether/ battle plan doesn't produce results), who'll fast track it through to a more useful vessel.. maybe. jo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 21:29:07 +0300 From: "Tick Tock" Subject: Re: IN> Corproeal Death (was FoTM) From: Whistling in the Dark >For me, it would go... a little something like this... chords on the piano, adding a few Noel Coward flourishes> While I cannot argue with the plausibilty of your explanation, especially in regards to demons experiencing trauma, I do have a minor logic nit to pick. In the case of angels you postulate a seperation from the symphony, however momentary, as the driving cause for the dismay of trauma. Yet demons are dismayed by... >...The Symphony of the world, that terrible, wonderful >tapestry which the Demon has blinded himself to, focusing on his own >personal Symphony, intrudes *physically* on the Demon and shatters his >connection to the Corporeal. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your explanation. It seems you were saying that a demon experiences a completely opposite effect from that of an angel. Rather than being cut off from the Symphony as an angel would be, a demon is exposed to it without the balm of it's own selfish symphony for protection. That doesn't make sense me. IMHO it would seem that any celestial being would experience the same effect though it's nature would dictate it's reaction to that effect. Either both are cut off or both are not. If I've failed to comprehend adaquately please let me know. I do value the manner in which you've worked the Heart into the death/trauma/recovery cycle. My own expanation lacks the elegance of yours but has always served me well by it's simplicity. Under the original design specifications neither Angels or Demons were ever intended to experience coporeal existance including Death. Trauma is that 'white space' wherein the celestial retreats from that which s/he was not meant to know until it find some way to reconcile/deal with the experience. Some never (what, never?) find a way to deal with it and stay in trauma. I note that others involved in the thread seem to stipulate corporeal death as being "painful". Understandably so since, IMG at least, it usually results from a violent rudeness being inflicted by hellish forces. Still, if we're speaking of physical pain, a plot thread or two involving relatively peaceful death(s) springs to mind. Perhaps the death of role in a specific circumstance to teach a needed lesson to a mortal and thus put him on the path of his destiny? Would a death under such 'controlled' and 'peaceful' circumstances result in Trauma? Cannon says yes although the argument could be made to significantly decrease the time spent in trauma at GM discretion. If it is emotional pain then what is it's source? There is no great unknown for the Celestials thus no (unjustified) fears. They know exactly what's waiting for them on the other side of blackness. Why would the transition to their natural (celestail) state evoke a 'painful' response? The explanation I envision covering mental/physical pain and accounting for the fact that all celestials (with one exception) experience trauma regardless of the circumstances of the death (as decreed by cannon) is this: - Celestials were never intended to be corporeal. As cannon frequently points out, Celestials are not superpowered hunmans. They're different. They were never intended to exist as corporeal beings and were not designed to handle the physical mind / physical body state humans were born to. So even though pain is just another sensation to a Celestial, albeit a less than pleasant one, they are also expeirencing natural reactions of the coporeal. Despite all they are and all they know about death and the Symphony the body is screaming "THIS IS IT! STOP!" Because this is so totally foreign to what they are, they mistake the bodies reactions for truth and in the moment of death they feel ... doubt. Thus trauma. Malakim are a design improvement, or perhaps more accurately a different perspective on the original design. The living wrath of God is not stayed by any obstacle including weakness, fear or doubt. For a Malakite bodies are just another test and there simply is no trauma. What he experiences is a part of his life and place in the symphony thus it has no hold on him. The average Malakite is probably quite mystified as to why his fellow Angels take it so hard. (Picture a compassionate Malakite standing over the celestial form of a traumatized friend saying, "Get over it. We've got demons to kill!" ) ... time waits for one man .... ... if he is willing to pay the price ... TickTock ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1136 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.