From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Mar 10 20:25:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29338 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:25:34 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA01280 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:24:47 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:24:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199903110224.UAA01280@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1144 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, March 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1144 In this digest: Re: IN> Vurt, FotM, the Kitchen Sink Re: IN> Re: Marc Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Re: IN> Vurt, FotM, the Kitchen Sink Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> Re: Marc Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling IN> The Naming of Demon Princes Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Re: IN> glad you are well IN> Proto-Impudites Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling IN> Replacement Vessels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:05:56 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Vurt, FotM, the Kitchen Sink At 4:33 PM -0500 3/10/99, Sean McCarthy wrote: >At 04:00 PM 3/10/99 -0500, in-sabre@annotations.com wrote: > >I should point out that there's a lot of leeway in that, especially for >>dark Lilim -- for instance, in the K.K. writeup, when she identified the >>Need of the Malakim and then fulfilled it, she also shouted "all right, but >>there's a price!" (paraphrased) To me, the Malakite following through on >>his Need was an unspoken acceptance of the Lilim's terms. > > > However, I think it bears mentioning that K.K. is a bad (bad being >good) >joke, generally speaking. Very funny and all, but who would let a PC do >that in their games? > I would, in a heartbeat. She is a perfect example of how Kobal's servitors serve the War effort. Malakim and Seraphim are embodiments of Honor and Truth -- by forcing them (in her ultimate goal) to look *ridiculous,* K.K. undermines the faith the others have in their most holy and most virtuous. By reacting to this humiliation in typical fashion (unholy fury or cold bitterness), the victims reinforce that undermining. While an Elohite would no doubt be unaffected, Mercurians, Ofanites, Kyriotates and so forth would have it hammered home that they can't take a simple *joke.* Maybe... just maybe they'd overreact to other things just as badly.... > Speaking on a fundamental level, I don't think Malakim really Need >to kill >every demon in sight. Malakim all have a Need/6 (Purge the Symphony of >evil.) but that's a bit more tricky to fufill for them. > Well, I agree. But in the middle of battle, Needs come and go as opponents do. They'd likely be low level, but if a Lilim is crafty.... > The whole subject was talked over to death long ago on the list so >I won't >restart the flamewar...I guess. ;) > I wasn't here for it! Hah hah! Flame on! (Seriously, it's a style thing, clearly. K.K... appeals to my sense of that side of the IN universe.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:10:58 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: Marc On Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 03:25:51PM -0600, Eeyore wrote: > I try to stay away from Biblical parallels because a) I'm not terribly familiar with > it, and b) when I've tried on other subjects, I've found it subject to multiple > interpretations. Historically, of course, your interpretation has very often not > been the one applied. Of course it has also been applied even in the Middle Ages. The Templars were, after all, known for their banking network and there are historical references to them loaning money with interest. Of course they may have been able to get away with more because they demonstrably needed vast funds in order to carry out their Crusading duties (and many private Crusaders were subsidised by the Templars), but the point still stands to some extent. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:19:08 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well Whistling in the Dark wrote: > I am *so* glad someone else thinks Nicole is a selfish, vain, intolerant > preImpudite. If she were some other Choir, I could see her attitude, but > she's so *not* Mercurian it isn't even funny. I mean, within twelve hours > of meeting her new Servant he gets his thumb bitten off -- a major > trama for most people who *like* opposable thumbs -- and her reaction is > some mild, hollow sympathy and an order to get her dry cleaning redone. I > can see why her other Soldier betrayed her -- I'd sure be rethinking my > alliegences if I spent time with her. I was wondering about that. I mean, 'Oh, I'l fix it when I get around to it.' -Yikes-! I sure wouldn't wanna work for such a being. She seemed awfully concerned with her own agenda and didn't even explain much to her new Soldier. Just 'I say. You do.' Not the best Mercurian attitude. And the way she blackmailed him, -first- thing, too. Not even a try at 'I'm an angel, we represent what is right, please do this for me and I'll explain why." She even blew her mission after bothering Gabriel for her 'itty bitty gun'. Not a good track record there. > An it harm none, do as thou wilt? > > I think angels are permitted a social life, so long as it doesn't interfere > with their work. The problem is, demons who discover an angel's social > life have another way they can begin to sow difficulty with the angel's > mission (or doubt in the Angel's mind.) That's just -begging- some Shedite to find out who you hang with, ;) But actually, I'm sure a -lot- of Mercurians and Elohim 'hang out' with humans just to do so. The Mercurians for company, the Elohim for insight. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:15:52 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well Elizabeth Bartley wrote on 10 March >On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >> (Just imagine if a Bright Lilim of Trade managed to get a Geas/5 on Bill >> Gates -- to use a real world currently high profile example -- and began >> using it to promote more equitable trade relations between Microsoft and >> other companies....) > >Heh. IMC the Holy Grail got Bill Gates. Marc was not involved (or if he >was, no one told the PCs) but Jean was *very* pleased. Coincidentally >enough, a Renegade Lilim acted as facilitator. What do you mean by "got"? Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:28:58 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well >Wade Trupke wrote on 10 March 1999 > >>I certainly see your point here. The Lilim >>resonance certainly tends toward the selfish. >>Then again, so does the Kyrio resonance. >>("Excuse me, but I need your bodies more than >>you folks do right now...") Heck, the whole >>thing about leading people to their Destinies is >>selfish, since it's just Heaven's way of keeping >>the souls for themselves, and not letting Hell >>get them. > > Actually, I see this the opposite way. Heaven is expending *terrific* effort, all the way to interfering with Mortality (which they weren't to do before) purely to give humanity the *chance* to achieve their Destiny and not be manipulated into Hell. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:25:49 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well At 3:10 PM -0500 3/10/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >Kevin Walsh wrote on 10 March 1999 > >>On Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 07:58:47AM -0800, Wade Trupke wrote: >>> term you want to use. Angels can be pretty >>> selfish, pretty often. (The Cherub from 'A >>> Bright Dream' keeps coming to mind.) >> >>I might note at this point that that Cherub has, according to subsequent >>stories, fallen. And IMO, Nicole is an Impudite waiting to happen. > > >How so? >Does she use violence against humans? No. >I'm not sure how good she is at keeping up at her duty to look after people >who harm themselves, but personally I seriously doubt she is hellbound, I >agree she is a hell of a bitch but she serves Fire. > She isn't dissonant, but she also isn't a Friend to Man. And sooner or later, acting against that nature is going to be a Problem. Dissonance to me is more than Dissonance conditions anyhow. It's whenever things drive you out of harmony with the Symphony/force you to start looking back towards it. Which means I have no harm with charging a nonviolent but *very* unfriendly Mercurian. Especially one who uses mortals like chattels, ignores their pains and tramas and.... Hey wait. Don't *Impudites* use humanity? Why gosh, I think they do.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:38:21 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin On Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 05:00:58PM -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > "I'm not sure how good she is at keeping up at her duty to look after > people who harm themselves, It would seem to me that she did a very bad job with Marcus, at the very least. but personally I seriously doubt she is > hellbound, I agree she is a hell of a bitch but she serves Fire." > It's the attitude more than anything else. Because she _is_ a bitch, I don't see why she would care whether she Fell or not. > Which reminds me of a point I once made on this list -- Elohim, it > seems to me, are the only choir that are likely to fall from > generally being evil. Other choirs get dissonance and discord only > from specialized, narrowly-defined failings, or even (in the case > of the imprisonned Ophanite), bad luck. > Actually, it's only for the Ofanite that doesn't attempt to get free. Windies carry the curse of having to make successful escapes, but then a Windy who can't pull off that kind of thing most of the time is, frankly, an idiot. > Kyriotates can be nasty to anyone except their hosts. > Being nasty to people generally has consequences for their hosts. > Malakim can wiggle around their oaths. > I played a Malakite once. It can be very hard not to break an oath some of the time. And the oath never to suffer an evil to live is arguably as broad as the Elohite dissonance by itself. > Ophanim can do anything they like, without dissonance, as long as they > don't slow down. > In practice > Cherubim can be total cruds as long as they aren't cruddy to their > charges, and not get dissonant. > Cherubim have to remain loyal to their friends, their Superior, and their beliefs. > A seraph can be a total bastard and not rack up any dissonance, as long > as he doesn't lie. > Re: Seraphim, I think a Seraph who makes bad judgements contrary to the evidence available is skirting their dissonance conditions. Lying to yourself is a bad thing, and so is making unwarranted assumptions. And failing to act on what you know to be true must be an incredibly difficult thing for most of them to do. > Only an Elohite gets dissonance just for letting bad temper or appetite > or vanity come before good judgement. I suppose they can be bad without > dissonance as long as their cold-blooded enough about it... > Depending on Word and character beliefs, of course. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:36:23 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well At 2:52 PM -0500 3/10/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >I agree that (some) Angels can often need to perform some pretty evil >actions in the cause of furthur good (like murder, blackmail, whatever), >however *selfish* actions (which I thought meant actions done for ones' own >self gratification) by definition aren't in the greater good. The Cherub >in a Bright Dream, was not acting selfishly, he was acting selflessly but >overzealously. > Remember, the woman *freaked* when he was dying, sobbing and comforting him and exposing herself to danger to do so. Tariel worked as a Cherub to me. All right, a Cherub into B&D, but then so was his charge.... (And, as I recall, Nicole looked at the torment that she was going through as her Guardian, her Protector and her Angel himself died in her arms and sniffed about Codependence. Friend of Man, they say... ,g>) - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:43:42 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin At 5:00 PM -0500 3/10/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Even waiving the part about Elohim being the only choir whacked with >dissonance for general badness, it still seems to me that we have a sort >of hole in the mechanics here. An angel can be a total rotter and still >be technically unfallen. > >Earl Which is why I feel GM's have to watch general behavior, and not be afraid to reinterpret dissonance when necessary. Not *always,* as (most) angels don't have to be *nice,* but generally acting against a Choir's (or Superior's) nature and word should ultimately be dissonant, even if they toe the line of the rules. (Which doesn't mean occasional lapses that don't trigger dissonance conditions are verboten -- but if you don't want to be friendly to people, play something not Mercurian, for example.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:45:37 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > Is this Fiddling as in playing the fiddle? If so, I would think that the demon > of Fiddling would be a Habbalite of the Media.... I'm not sure, maybe a > Balseraph would work, but I don't think so. I think Ramesh means it as in "messing around with things", in which case, a Balseraph is perfectly appropriate. "Of _course_ it's supposed to be this way! Geez, you guys have _no_ appreciation for art..." - -EDG ;) - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "I never trust anybody who can't lie." - Caitlin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:49:49 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling At 5:02 PM -0500 3/10/99, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 3/10/99 1:39:54 PM, ramesh.sat@telinco.co.uk writes: > >>Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? >>"First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you >>remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with >>Fiddling" >> >Is this Fiddling as in playing the fiddle? If so, I would think that the demon >of Fiddling would be a Habbalite of the Media.... I'm not sure, maybe a >Balseraph would work, but I don't think so. > Oh come on -- haven't you ever heard "The Devil Went Down to Georgia?" He managed to convince himself that he was the greatest fiddler in creation, after all -- and when proven wrong, he acted altruistically (and therefore dissonantly).... (Eric Burns -- freelance debator for hire!) - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:10:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Vurt, FotM, the Kitchen Sink At 5:05 PM -0500 3/10/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 4:33 PM -0500 3/10/99, Sean McCarthy wrote: >>At 04:00 PM 3/10/99 -0500, in-sabre@annotations.com wrote: >> >>I should point out that there's a lot of leeway in that, especially for >>>dark Lilim -- for instance, in the K.K. writeup, when she identified the >>>Need of the Malakim and then fulfilled it, she also shouted "all right, but >>>there's a price!" (paraphrased) To me, the Malakite following through on >>>his Need was an unspoken acceptance of the Lilim's terms. And she didn't resist. She all but threw herself onto his sword. IIRC. >> >> >>However, I think it bears mentioning that K.K. is a bad (bad being good) >>joke, generally speaking. Very funny and all, but who would let a PC do >>that in their games? (Me, I'd stick her in as an NPC -- and don't forget, with Perception 12, she can target the need to slay evil pretty well...) >I would, in a heartbeat. Brave person. >She is a perfect example of how Kobal's servitors >serve the War effort. Malakim and Seraphim are embodiments of Honor and >Truth -- by forcing them (in her ultimate goal) to look *ridiculous,* K.K. >undermines the faith the others have in their most holy and most virtuous. And if they recognize what she's doing, the expressions on their faces as they realize that they can kill her -- and be hooked -- or let her loose -- and be dissonant... I admit, I created her as an NPC who could harass trigger-happy PCs -- or even more level-headed ones. (She served her purpose quite well in Maya's Fiat Justita game, of which the URL has been posted recently here, but ask if you need it.) >I wasn't here for it! Hah hah! Flame on! I think the basic arguement is that K.K. is a munchkin, which is quite true. She's min-maxed and is a one-trick-Lilim. She relies on the back- story of Kobal's favor to keep getting vessels -- which keeps her nicely NPC. As an NPC, I like her a lot. As a PC... I'd want to be running a somewhat silly campaign! >(Seriously, it's a style thing, clearly. K.K... appeals to my sense of >that side of the IN universe.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:11:40 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin At 5:00 PM -0500 3/10/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Even waiving the part about Elohim being the only choir whacked with >dissonance for general badness, it still seems to me that we have a sort >of hole in the mechanics here. An angel can be a total rotter and still >be technically unfallen. Actually, that's not a bug, it's a feature -- at least for some styles of play. It's a case of, "what *IS* Good?" And/or it's a holdover from the INS/MV French version, where angels *didn't* Fall (and demons didn't redeem), and woah but did they do rotten things! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:13:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well At 2:19 PM -0800 3/11/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >> I am *so* glad someone else thinks Nicole is a selfish, vain, intolerant >> preImpudite. [...] > > I was wondering about that. I mean, 'Oh, I'l fix it when I get around >to it.' IIRC, she was out of Essence at the time, which could explain that. Of course, the bit with her tossing a human around with a Song is pretty well dissonance-generating, but there are other hints in the vignette that it was following an earlier version of the rules. (I suspect Impudites and Mercurians used to have the same dissonance condition, for instance -- *killing* humans. Dunno for sure, though.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:28:01 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Re: Marc Kevin Walsh wrote: > Of course it has also been applied even in the Middle Ages. The Templars > were, after all, known for their banking network and there are historical > references to them loaning money with interest. Of course they may have > been able to get away with more because they demonstrably needed vast > funds in order to carry out their Crusading duties (and many private > Crusaders were subsidised by the Templars), but the point still stands to > some extent. They didn't get away with it in the long run, did they? All that wealth made them a target, and, if I recall correctly (medieval history not being my specialty) wasn't usury one of the charges used to bring theTemplars down? Sure, it wasn't as spectacular as the sorcery and perversion charges, but it least had the virtue of being factually true. I suspect that they got away with it as much for being powerful as for being holy, which would make it a less useful example. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:21:52 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling In a message dated 3/10/99 2:46:27 PM, anthoch@earlham.edu writes: >MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > >> Is this Fiddling as in playing the fiddle? If so, I would think that >the demon >> of Fiddling would be a Habbalite of the Media.... I'm not sure, maybe >a >> Balseraph would work, but I don't think so. > >I think Ramesh means it as in "messing around with things", in which >case, a Balseraph is perfectly appropriate. "Of _course_ it's supposed >to be this way! Geez, you guys have _no_ appreciation for art..." > >-EDG > ;) >-- >EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination >anthoch@earlham.edu >"I never trust anybody who can't lie." - Caitlin In that case, I'd go with a Balseraph of Technology, or possibly Theft. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:46:12 -0800 From: Brad Jones Subject: IN> The Naming of Demon Princes [I found this in old outgoing email; apparently, it never made it to the list.] The Infernal Players Guide mentions that members of some choirs frequently change their names when they Fall. Specifically, Ofanim becoming Calabim and Mercurians becoming Impudites are highly likely to do so. (Habbaleh don't change names anywhere near as often, for example, and neither do Balseraphs.) Did any of the Demon Princes change their names? The members of the two most likely bands known to have Fallen, in my quick look through the books, were: Calabim: Belial (former servant of Gabriel), Vephar (former servant of Oannes, now deceased) Impudites: Kobal (former Angel of Laughter), Andrealphus (former Angel of Love), Alaemon (former servitor of Litheroy) I understand that, for simplicity's sake, it's a lot easier to refer to the pre-Fall future-demons by their current names, but it'd be interesting to find out what the names used to be, or why they didn't change. BJ - -- Brad Jones (rjones@us.oracle.com), Senior Technical Staff, Project Bali All opinions are mine, not Oracle's. "If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." -- Kurt Vonnegut ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 05:59:04 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin >Even waiving the part about Elohim being the only choir whacked with >dissonance for general badness, it still seems to me that we have a sort >of hole in the mechanics here. An angel can be a total rotter and still >be technically unfallen. > This is actually one of my favorite parts about IN. Just because you are serving Heaven or Hell doesn't mean you have to be nice or naughty respectively. An Impudite of Valefor could be the nicest guy in the world as long as he doesn't stick around too long. Likewise a Mercurian of Jordi could walk up to your face and call you things that would make a Habbalah of nightmares blush and that would be no problem. In my opinion if it were otherwise the game would be just too limiting. Ben COD "I'm not the heroic type. I was beaten up by Quakers." Woody Allen "Sleeper" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:04:38 EST From: SwrdCherub@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin In a message dated 3/10/99 8:02:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, aldrebe@earlham.edu writes: << This is actually one of my favorite parts about IN. Just because you are serving Heaven or Hell doesn't mean you have to be nice or naughty respectively. An Impudite of Valefor could be the nicest guy in the world as long as he doesn't stick around too long. Likewise a Mercurian of Jordi could walk up to your face and call you things that would make a Habbalah of nightmares blush and that would be no problem. In my opinion if it were otherwise the game would be just too limiting. Ben COD >> In response to this I have to say I like my current In-Nomine story better than any other, Demons are not looked at as bad, merely "fallen" which most of them are, unless two demons bumped celestial nasties. However I feel most Angels should be "good" playing the rebel is great but eventually it will get you into trouble David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:18:33 EST From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well In a message dated 99-03-10 17:20:31 EST, Steel Angel wrote: << I was wondering about that. I mean, 'Oh, I'l fix it when I get around to it.' -Yikes-! I sure wouldn't wanna work for such a being. >> Given that her servant ran off with Marcus' circa Liber Reliquarium, I think that it's safe to say that she reaped what she had sown. Also, looking at it, Nicole has lost two servants in a very short period of time. Perhaps it's time for her to undergo Novalian reprogrammi..er therapy in Heaven for a while. S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:54:12 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Proto-Impudites On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >I might note at this point that that Cherub has, according to subsequent > >stories, fallen. And IMO, Nicole is an Impudite waiting to happen. > > How so? > Does she use violence against humans? No. Yes, actually. "A Bright Dream", pg. 8, In Nomine main rulebook: And then, just as quickly, he was thrown back across the alley by some invisible force, knives spinning out of his hands as he hit the brick wall and slid down, landing face-first on the pavement. Next column, same page. "And that piece of shit at our feet who's about to regain consciousness," she whispered into one ear, "he would've killed you if I hadn't stopped him." She *somehow* threw her ex-soldier across an alley and knocked him unconscious. Sounds like "violence against humans" to me. > I'm not sure how good she is at keeping up at her duty to look after people > who harm themselves, but personally I seriously doubt she is hellbound, I > agree she is a hell of a bitch but she serves Fire. If her casual attitude about using violence against humans in the opening story is typical of her, she *is* Hellbound. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>Which > >> brings us into the whole "ends justify the > >> means" debate, which I imagine Heaven seeing as > >> a necessary Evil... > >> > >> Errg. There's a phrase I bet they don't like! > >> > >I think you may be underestimating the tendency of Seraphim and Elohim to > >like accurate description. > > I think I agree with you here. > > Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? > "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you > remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with > Fiddling" > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:03:12 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Elizabeth Bartley wrote on 10 March > >Heh. IMC the Holy Grail got Bill Gates. Marc was not involved (or if he > >was, no one told the PCs) but Jean was *very* pleased. Coincidentally > >enough, a Renegade Lilim acted as facilitator. > What do you mean by "got"? Roughly the human equivalent of Redemption: significant personality alteration, in addition to physical healing. Mr. Gates consented, but he consented partly because he'd been deceived by a Judas Grail (courtesy of Fate? It was never clear which of the oposition had done what) and was horrified when he realized what the false grail was -- or wasn't. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:32:28 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Earl Wajenberg wrote >Cherubim can be total cruds as long as they aren't cruddy to their >charges, and not get dissonant. Also Cherubim can't betray their friends, ideals, Superior or self. >An angel can be a total rotter and still >be technically unfallen. Yes they can. Who said angels were nice? 1. The inquisition is there so angels don't act dodgily. 2. If an angel starts acting too dodgily their superior should make them Outcast. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:41:26 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Kevin Walsh wrote on 10 March 1999 22:45 >> "I'm not sure how good she is at keeping up at her duty to look after >> people who harm themselves, > >It would seem to me that she did a very bad job with Marcus, at the very >least. Very, Very true. >but personally I seriously doubt she is >> hellbound, I agree she is a hell of a bitch but she serves Fire." >> >It's the attitude more than anything else. Because she _is_ a bitch, I >don't see why she would care whether she Fell or not. Hmmm, I'd partially agree, but I thikn she's competent enough not to fall. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:48:32 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Cc: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 10 March 1999 22:46 Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well >At 3:10 PM -0500 3/10/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >>Kevin Walsh wrote on 10 March 1999 >> >>>On Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 07:58:47AM -0800, Wade Trupke wrote: >>>> term you want to use. Angels can be pretty >>>> selfish, pretty often. (The Cherub from 'A >>>> Bright Dream' keeps coming to mind.) >>> >>>I might note at this point that that Cherub has, according to subsequent >>>stories, fallen. And IMO, Nicole is an Impudite waiting to happen. >> >> >>How so? >>Does she use violence against humans? No. >>I'm not sure how good she is at keeping up at her duty to look after people >>who harm themselves, but personally I seriously doubt she is hellbound, I >>agree she is a hell of a bitch but she serves Fire. >> > >She isn't dissonant, but she also isn't a Friend to Man. And sooner or >later, acting against that nature is going to be a Problem. > >Dissonance to me is more than Dissonance conditions anyhow. It's whenever >things drive you out of harmony with the Symphony/force you to start >looking back towards it. Which means I have no harm with charging a >nonviolent but *very* unfriendly Mercurian. Especially one who uses >mortals like chattels, ignores their pains and tramas and.... > >Hey wait. Don't *Impudites* use humanity? Why gosh, I think they do.... True, but you need to rack up actual dissonance before you fall, sure by acting like she doesn't care about humanity she is furthuring herself from her nature and this *could* lead her down the path of thinking "Hey, what does it matter if I whack this one human?", but until she actually starts racking up dissonance I don't think she's gonna fall. She may not shine with the Radiance of Heaven, but she is an angel. A dark angel, yes, an angel on her way down, I don't think so. (But with a little manipulation....) Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:49:46 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Cc: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 10 March 1999 22:48 Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well >At 2:52 PM -0500 3/10/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >>I agree that (some) Angels can often need to perform some pretty evil >>actions in the cause of furthur good (like murder, blackmail, whatever), >>however *selfish* actions (which I thought meant actions done for ones' own >>self gratification) by definition aren't in the greater good. The Cherub >>in a Bright Dream, was not acting selfishly, he was acting selflessly but >>overzealously. >> > >Remember, the woman *freaked* when he was dying, sobbing and comforting him >and exposing herself to danger to do so. Tariel worked as a Cherub to me. >All right, a Cherub into B&D, but then so was his charge.... To be Tariel was acting very Djinny to say the least, but I guess that's personal opinion. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:54:03 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Mark wrote on 10 March 1999 22:24 > >In a message dated 3/10/99 1:39:54 PM, ramesh.sat@telinco.co.uk writes: > >>Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? >>"First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you >>remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with >>Fiddling" >> >Is this Fiddling as in playing the fiddle? If so, I would think that the demon >of Fiddling would be a Habbalite of the Media.... I'm not sure, maybe a >Balseraph would work, but I don't think so. Playing the fiddle? Not quite, it's fiddling as constantly shuffling a deck of cards in your left hands, playing with worry balls in your right and chewing on a cocktail stick simultaneously kinda fiddling. The Balseraph thing, is 'cos I've a thing about Truth and so should be a Seraph but Fiddling pisses too many people off to be any thing but infernal - I guess that suggests Malphas but I just don't like Factions enough to serve it. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:03:41 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Mark wrote > >In a message dated 3/10/99 2:46:27 PM, anthoch@earlham.edu writes: > >>MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: >> >>> Is this Fiddling as in playing the fiddle? If so, I would think that >>the demon >>> of Fiddling would be a Habbalite of the Media.... I'm not sure, maybe >>a >>> Balseraph would work, but I don't think so. >> >>I think Ramesh means it as in "messing around with things", in which >>case, a Balseraph is perfectly appropriate. "Of _course_ it's supposed >>to be this way! Geez, you guys have _no_ appreciation for art..." >> >>-EDG >> ;) >>-- >>EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination >>anthoch@earlham.edu >>"I never trust anybody who can't lie." - Caitlin > >In that case, I'd go with a Balseraph of Technology, or possibly Theft. Hmmm interesting, I'll give it a thought. Possibly Asmodeus though since Fiddling is just a Game and my main fiddle is a Deck of Cards. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:19:49 -0500 (EST) From: Eslin Subject: IN> Replacement Vessels On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Seth Buntain wrote: > And finally, how often to Angels/Demons get their vessels replaced? Id > like to know because it would help gauge how often the Free Lilim would get > gifts from her temp Superior while in Limbo (less than everyone else, but > maybe on occasion.) Do Malakim get replacements more often than everyone > else? (Like, anytime they get their butt kicked in honorable combat?) > Thats always bothered me, cause otherwise the Malakim is going to be > spending all his character points on replacing his vessel, instead of songs > or stats or whatever. I suspect that the answer is: every time you need and deserve it. Occasionally when you simply could use and deserve it. Does this mean that if you regularly get into stupid fights and lose them you'll be assigned to Heaven duty for a while? Yes. Probably sent over to train with Michael's or Laurence's people, depending on your and your Superior's inclinations. Does this mean that if you regularly get into /necessary/ fights /in the performance of your duty/ and lose a vessel while accomplishing something important, you'll be assigned to Heaven duty for a while? No. In fact, if you accomplish /enough/, you may get handed /two/ Vessels - and taught the trick of swapping between them in order to avoid losing one. What about if you're a demon? - Hard to say. Much more dependent on the mood of your Prince. It may be three-legged rat time. :) I'm not a good judge of how often people lose and replace Vessels, though; my main In Nomine character has had two vessels, ever, and one of them was a Dark Ages monk. (The Incident involving a Balseraph of Kobal and a Shedite of Fate made said character /plead/ for heaven duty - and it was a good few centuries before she got assigned to Earth again. Though she was in a female vessel at the re-assignment, which implies it was new...) - eslin@buffnet.net ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1144 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.