From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 11 20:27:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12164 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:27:30 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA21428 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:28:41 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:28:41 -0600 Message-Id: <199903120228.UAA21428@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1147 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 11 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1147 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: KK IN> Re: Rise of the Lilim Re: IN> Re: KK IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Lilim and Geases... Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Lilim and Geases... Re: IN> In>CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler) Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Rise of the Lilim Re: IN> More Geas Stuff IN> Dark Humor IN> K.K. Re: IN> In>CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler) Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Lilim and Geases... Re: IN> Dark Humor Re: IN> Dark Humor IN> ADMIN: MIME Cruft (Re: CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler)) Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Dark Humor Re: IN> Dark Humor Re: IN> Dark Humor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:45:44 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK > Actually, that's not as much of a problem as it appears. Remember, KK > *wants* to attract angels. She can do all kinds of Funny stuff that > will draw angelic attention to her, which most of Kobal's Servitors need > to avoid. After all, she *wants* angels to quickly realize she's a > demon, and therefore fair game. > > So she can merrily do other Funny stuff all day long, until an angel > shows up to stop it. Nice gig, if you can get it. Actually, I agree with Jo. :) Kobal doesn't honestly care what Kanah thinks she's doing. What, exactly, is a Level-1 Geas on one little angel somewhere out of millions to a being who can level mountains with a twitch of his mind, and plays his games on the level of demigodhood? All that is amusing is watching her think she's actually getting somewhere. It's more amusing to let Kanah believe that her life has some sort of meaning, and that there's actually a point of worth to what she's working toward. And in reality, there isn't. It's more amusing to watch her die painfully with the hope in her eyes that she's just... that... much... closer. So of course she gets new vessels. That kind of joke can be replayed in different variations over and over again for Kobal's private amusement. > I would also argue that your view of Kobal's dissonance condition is > maybe too extreme. It's not necessarily if *Kobal* thinks it's funny, > it's whether you can get someone else to laugh at the victim's > misfortune. If all Kobal's Servitors had to come up with a *unique* new > trick every day, his Servitors wouldn't be able to do much after a few > decades -- there aren't that many *new* jokes to pull. That's all great and wonderful for stories and backgrounds. It won't work in play with real people. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:27:48 -0800 (PST) From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Re: Rise of the Lilim Quoth Martin Arnold: >Here's what I was trying to say in a nutshell: > > A Lilim is selfish because a) she is a demon and that's God's Law >(apparently), but more importantly, because b) she will only offer to >help you if she can get a Geas out of it, without even telling you what >the price is. A Dark Lilim, probably. And *that* is selfish (or at least unfair), yes. But it is not *necessary* to the Lilim resonance that the Lilim trick or deceive her victims. It *is* necessary that the victim pay the Lilim back, willingly or not, but I'm not so sure that's inherently selfish. See below. There is no contract with a Lilim in those terms because >she makes the rules and kills you for breaking them. Put it this way; if >the Lilim rez only extended as far as seeing another's need, then she >wouldn't be motivated - as a demon - to help people. As a demon, right. But Bright Lilim are angels. They use the same power *for different reasons*. A Bright would help even if she didn't feel right taking a Geas in return -- and if she did take the "favor," it would be to help you or others. Think of The Shadow and his network of contacts. Every time he saves a life, that person *owes* him, and he calls on them later to help him in his work . . . which is *helping others* and *fighting evil*. It's not as thoroughly charitable as helping without gain, perhaps, but it's not *selfish*, either -- the Shadow doesn't make these people wash his clothes or something; generally, he calls upon their natural talents or skills to help him solve a problem that is threatening even more innocent people. Maybe this is a >'fault' of the mechanics when faced with the philosophical nature of the >setting. (That's not a criticism btw). In other words it's only what she >can get put of it that drives her to fulfil these needs. Therefore one >could say that Lilim don't truly help people. Would you say that doctors don't truly help people, just because they generally get paid for their services (and can send the Law after people who don't pay up)? Perhaps some doctors get into the profession for the money, but there are those who become doctors to help others. Sometimes they don't even take the money that's due them, if a patient can't pay. But I don't think a doctor's conscience should prick him if he *does* take what he's owed. Charity may be the highest virtue, but Justice is a virtue, too. You are *supposed* to pay what you owe. If the other person *chooses* to release you from your obligation, that is quite selfless, but it doesn't dip all the way down into selfishness if he goes ahead and claims what you owe him. Saying that you should somehow have a "right" to break an agreement without suffering for it is morally questionable; asking someone to pay up or suffer the consequences -- after you've already done the person a service -- is not. That said, I really do like the house rule that requires Lilim of all stripes to make their deals in advance. For Dark Lilim, it gives us the whole "deal with the devil" bit: if a human agrees to accept some questionable benefit in return for "a favor to be named later," then he gets what he deserves when the Lilim shows up to call in the Geas. For Brights, open deal-making should probably be standard operating procedure even if the rules *don't* require it. Would you still object to that? You seemed to have two different objections: that a human victim won't be able to give "informed consent" to the average Lilim favor, and that taking payment for your services is intrinsically selfish. I hope I've been able to persuade you that the former is entirely a matter of motivation on the Lilim's part, and that Bright Lilim (by virtue of being angels) probably don't use that method very much. Now . . . what about the second part? Is the Lilim resonance itself, motivation and deception notwithstanding, still innately selfish? If I'm a Bright, and I tell Joe Human, "I will do this for you now, but you will owe me a favor later, and God's Justice will not permit you to refuse," and get him to believe that's the truth, and he agrees, is it *still* selfish to enforce the Geas later on? Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campuscwix.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:39:27 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Malakim will have a Need to take her down, almost by definition. Probably > it won't be the top Need in their mind, but by gum it will be a Need and > while her Body hits are low, her Perception is astronomical. She'll find > it. She'll grant it. They'll suffer for it. We're discussing Geasa/1 or > 2, as I recall -- these are generally *minor* needs. And the more times she tries this, the greater the overall chance that one time, she's not gonna come out of Trauma. And if this worked so well, wouldn't -every- Lilim be doing it? > Man, that's not at *all* how I play Kobal. Kobal to me is the one who > takes the time to install the upside-down font on your computer, then set > it so when you boot your system up, all your menus and desktop items have > upside down names. Kobal is the one who suggested "The Committee to > Re-Elect the President" to Nixon's staff, so that his campaign was run by > CREEP. Dave Berry and Dilbert further his word, and we all love it. There > are a lot of *good* things* about his Word and what it does, but it also > hurts people, subjects them to ridicule, makes them look stupid and > undermines their faith in themselves. Nope, -nothing- good about -Kobal's- Word now. His Humour is hateful, self-absorbed, to make oneself look good by belittling another. Now I'm certain there's got to be another Angel of Laughter out there and yes, sometimes mocking someone -can- be a good thing. It keeps people from getting too full of themselves as long as you keep it in perspective. Kobal's Word is all about -hurting- people and demeaning those who laugh as well. > When you recount the bonehead thing your office mate did to others, and > they laugh, Kobal is laughing too. When you pour sugar into that first cup > of coffee in the morning and some *bastard* has replaced it with salt as a > joke and you're in a rotten mood the rest of the day, Kobal's mood > improves. Kobal is as subtle as someone putting your in mail in the out > basket and as blunt as having a bucket of pig's blood fall on your head at > the Prom. He is Dark Humor, and he's not laughing with you. What's good about this again? ;) > K.K. does more than *please* Kobal. K.K. does more than further his ends. > K.K. *amuses* Kobal. She came up with something he never thought of, and > she's building it to a blow off like no one's business. And it could sow > dissension, help angels to fall, and -- most importantly -- be one Hell of > a joke on them. And she's doing it with their rules and their guidelines. > The natural satire on the things they hold most dear -- the holiness of the > Seraphs. The virtue of the Malakim. If she manages to get her master plan > to work, it's not just that a bunch of Malakim will clumsily sing Gilbert > and Sullivan in front of the most powerful and holy of all the lower > Heavens... a touch of Hell *and* Kobal's Word will extend into the very > heart of the Seraphim Council. If she pulls it off, he'd give her a > distinction. If she gets a *recording* of it, he'd sponsor her for a > *word.* Now of course, you -know- Lawrence and Dominic (at least) are going to have her Soul-Killed for it. It seems you're forgetting that pissing off - -several- Archangels isn't a good idea, even for a favoured servitor of a Prince. The other Princes couldn't care less about some annoying Lilim. Remember, -nothing- stops an angel from -telling- his Superior that 'Some damn Lilim Geased me as I killed her.'. So this plan is likely doomed before it starts. I just didn't like FotM at all, honestly. Too many of the concepts seemed a bit out of whack to me. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:36:31 -0800 (PST) From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia >But then you've got to watch out for a certain Soldier of God who >seems to be able to out fiddle Lucifer himself... >o/" The devil went down to Georgia o/" >o/" He was looking for soul to steal... o/" Johnny a Soldier of God? I think not. He was a prideful little snot who risked his soul for a stupid golden fiddle. "The boy said, 'My name's Johnny, *and it might be a sin*, [emphasis mine] But I'll take your bet, and you're gonna regret -- 'Cause I'm the best that's ever been!'" There was no higher cause involved here, or even a desire to do battle with the Devil in the name of Good -- there was just Johnny's own egotism and greed. That he won was fortunate, but it was hardly due to his innate virtue. This reminds me . . . long ago, John Karakash proposed a balance for human characters, by which each human could have *one* skill (his "gift" from God, tied to his Destiny and Fate) bought up to a value of +9 (or higher?), thus allowing every human to compete with the celestials in at least one area. I always thought of Johnny out-fiddling Lucifer as the obvious example. Whatever happened to that notion, JK? Any chance it'll be in the Corp PG? Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campuscwix.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:56:22 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK In a message dated 3/11/99 10:16:19 AM Central Standard Time, in- sabre@annotations.com writes: > Do you think any President has enjoyed what Saturday Night Live has done to > him? Kobal smiles as that President gets bitter towards the press and > media and his own constituants, especially when his most painful moments > are lampooned for all the people and everyone tells him to "lighten up, > it's just a joke." Actually, George Bush LOVED Dana Carvey, and even imitated Carvey's version of himself in some of his speeches, which may not be Dark Humor, but it is weird. > This is why I like K.K. so much. Not only because it's a hysterical idea, > but because it's a hysterical idea that *works* in even the Darkest IN > interpretations, in my opinion. I agree that although K.K. is a one-trick pony, as has been pointed out, she is way cool. And she's the perfect NPC to bring down the arrogant Malakite PC in your group. :) Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:58:54 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK In a message dated 3/11/99 11:30:56 AM Central Standard Time, zenith@umich.edu writes: > A funny joke the > first time, and enough to score essence, but after that it's lame. What if I were playing the Demon of Running Gags? Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:23:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Geases... On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Walter Milliken wrote: > ... Vessel-replacement is expensive enough that explaining a > celestial retreat is generally better than not retreating and having to > explain losing a vessel. Just out of interest - What about Michael? Does it go: A) "Why did you retreat?" "To avoid losing this lovely vessel/6 you gave me." "You still broke my dissonance condition. Have a slap." "Ouch" or B) "You lost that lovely vessel/6 I gave you. Why?" "To avoid breaking your dissonance condition." "You idiot. I can always remove dissonance. Have a slap." "Ouch" To put it another way, how many levels of vessel are equivalent to removing a point of dissonance, in terms of Archangel-hours of work? Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:31:52 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Stacy Stroud wrote: > He was a prideful little snot who risked his soul for a stupid golden fiddle. > > "The boy said, 'My name's Johnny, *and it might be a sin*, [emphasis mine] > But I'll take your bet, and you're gonna regret -- > 'Cause I'm the best that's ever been!'" > > There was no higher cause involved here, or even a desire to do battle with > the Devil in the name of Good -- there was just Johnny's own egotism and > greed. That he won was fortunate, but it was hardly due to his innate > virtue. There was a sequel to the song that came out on Mark O'Connor's "Heroes" album, with Mark as Johnny, Travis Tritt as the devil, and Johnny Cash as the big-voiced narrator. The devil returns to get Johnny for Pride - Johnny learns he has to practice like mad to stay good. Not exactly what we're looking for, but close. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:43:59 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/11/99 10:16:19 AM Central Standard Time, in- > sabre@annotations.com writes: > > > Do you think any President has enjoyed what Saturday Night Live has done to > > him? Kobal smiles as that President gets bitter towards the press and > > media and his own constituants, especially when his most painful moments > > are lampooned for all the people and everyone tells him to "lighten up, > > it's just a joke." > > Actually, George Bush LOVED Dana Carvey, and even imitated Carvey's version of > himself in some of his speeches, which may not be Dark Humor, but it is weird. Sure, but Gerald Ford still blames his loss to Jimmy Carter on Chevy Chase. And even with all of the other albatrosses around his neck that he got saddled with, that election was so close, he might be right. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 17:14 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Geases... >To put it another way, how many levels of vessel are equivalent to >removing a point of dissonance, in terms of Archangel-hours of work? There's no hard-and-fast rule, but I think there's something somewhere that equates removing 1 dissonance with 10 Essence; and in the Limbo rules, a human vessel/1 is worth 75 Essence. That said, I suspect Michael is probably less concerned with that cost than most -- he's probably more insistent that his people fight to the last, regardless of the cost/benefit ratio. That sort of cost analysis is for Marc's people, not his.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:08:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In>CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler) At 6:20 AM -0800 3/11/99, Daiv Barr wrote: > I know that I am late to get the Feast of Blades / in nomine gm >screen package. so sorry if this is not the most timely of questions. > But, having gotten that, I am wondering...who is the _canonical_ dp >secrets? Alaemon and Gebbeleth. (Alaemon is the current one. He lives.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:08:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK At 9:34 AM -0500 3/11/99, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >Archangel Beth wrote: >>And if they recognize what she's doing, the expressions on their >>faces as they realize that they can kill her -- and be hooked -- >>or let her loose -- and be dissonant... > >Actually, this isn't true. It depends on the structure of the angel's >beliefs. The more the angel is focusing on the greater purpose, the >less able she will be to get her hook. > >If the angel is thinking "Grr. Must kill demons," then she can fulfill the >need and get a hook, no problem. > >But if the angel is thinking, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: >the whole earth is full of his glory," she is in deep trouble. Thing is, every Malakite is sworn to "not suffer evil to live." Which means that they have to slay evil. (In my book, at least -- they Need evil to be gone, by the sword or by the purifying Light of Heaven.) The ones who give her hives are Malakim of Destiny, who don't want to *slay* her -- but want to *redeem* her. (Kanah reels away, going 'ow, ow, ow.') So she has to Prank them enough that they want to see her dead, and then she has to find that Need... Or she has to give up, which would freak her something fierce. (Imagine. An angel who didn't want her dead. Might *almost* make her wonder...) There's a reason she targets Malakim specifically -- they have that oath. That burning need to *slay evil*. Just as Djinn have the need to be cuddled and cared for through no virtue of their own, and without having to care in return. But after a while, the Malakim realize that she's *K.K.*, and the only way to get rid of her evil is to *soul-kill* her. And then they don't need her vessel-dead. They need her soul dead, or helpless in their hands so they can find out exactly how fragile she is... So she moves on, because they're no fun anymore. (Though some Malakite might go up against her in celestial combat and discover that she's got Fighting/1 and Dodge/6, and Will&Perception 12. "You want a piece of me, Blackwing? C'mon. Just *try* to take it." And then she runs away if the Malakite gets friends or might be winning.) At 1:52 PM -0500 3/11/99, Emily Dresner wrote: >It doesn't really matter if she's told Kobal or not. Kanah is bound to >Kobal, so she's bound to his dissonance condition, which is: be Funny >every day or suck dissonance. Actually, she has to "worsen someone's misfortune by laughing at him or making others laugh." And it's quite true -- unless she dies VERY entertainingly, she has to do something *else* to satisfy the dissonance. Getting hooks on Malakim when Malakim do what they're honor-bound to do, though -- that's her hobby, and I think it's rather ironic. God built Malakim to defend Heaven's honor -- and by doing that, they're playing into the scrawny green hands of a one-trick Lilim. And they *have* to, or else they're dissonant. And also yup -- once she pulls it off, she has to think of some *different* application of her "Will Die For Geases" trick. If she's lucky, though, her Prince'll have given her an Ethereal Force as a reward... (And if she's not lucky .... Why, that's Funny too.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:08:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Rise of the Lilim At 10:05 AM -0800 3/11/99, Martin Arnold wrote: >This means that, to my mind, Lilim resonance is selfish, which >contradicts what is written in their writeup in the book, and is why I >don't understand how they can redeem and keep their power. Because, quite simply, while they're celestial souls (and not human), they're *unique*. They have no corresponding Choir. They may be dark or gray or bright -- but they are *Lilim*. They're not twisted distortions of angels. They don't turn Truth to "*MY* truth." They don't turn "Motion Through the Symphony" to "Motion UPON the Symphony." They don't turn Protection to Obsession, Balance to Whim, or Friendship to Manipulation. They use Perception to touch the hearts of others, much as Elohim do. And then they call in cosmic balance to enforce their Will upon others in return. But they don't have to. They're not Shedim. Their resonance may be forged in Hell, but they have free will. And knowing needs is not intrinsically selfish. Or, to paraphrase someone else -- Geases aren't selfish. Lilim are selfish. A Bright need never Geas anyone. A Bright can vanish a hook with but a moment's thought, and may indeed choose to do so regularly. >With regards to likening Geasa to contracts, there are a few >differences: breaking a contract won't kill your soul! Check out Trade's Servitor Attunement, Divine Contract. That'll kill a human just as fast as a Geas, if not faster. >She would be selfish if she was only thinking of herself in the process. >That seems to me to be the Lilim mindset. That's the dark Lilim mindset, yup. That's a very demonic mindset. Anyway -- they keep their resonance because they're Lilim. Wing-sister or horn-sister, they're all sisters. They're unique. Their mommy is a human. The part of them that resonates with the Symphony isn't broken, as it is with other demons -- they *already* use Perception to tap into it, to some tiny extent. So if it's not broken, the Archangel doing the redeeming doesn't fix it. (And/or if the Symphony doesn't burn it away, then the Archangel leaves it put as well.) And no, I'm not going to suddenly realize that Lilim should get a different resonance if they redeem and change the canon. That they keep it should be something that raises questions in angelic minds, about philosophical considerations. At 2:08 PM -0500 3/11/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > [...] This is what they are taught, and this is what >the vast majority of them believe. Interesting viewpoint. >To my mind, the Lilim resonance is a gift (the only one Lilith doesn't make >them pay for, since they pay for all their Forces) given so that no one can >abuse them. How that Lilim *uses* that gift is up to her -- because she >*has* Free Will. If a Lilim redeems, and uses that gift to force people >into helping themselves or seeing new ways or fighting Deviltry, that is >their choice. As a comment, IMC (not canon), there are rumors that Lilith can reach into a Lilim's soul... and take away the thing that makes a Lilim a Lilim. So you're left with the world's biggest demonling, with no resonance. The ultimate in disownment. This is also known as, "Fate worse than being caught by the Game and tortured for 10 centuries." Well, by some sisters, at least. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:08:47 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> More Geas Stuff At 1:10 AM -0500 3/11/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >I don't know if this has been addressed on the list or in canon, but here >goes... >If a Lilim calls in a Geas on a human, the human takes damage until he dies. >No problem. What if the human in question is already dead? Does he take Soul >hits? As in, if he's a soul? Sure. >If a human dies from not fulfilling a Geas, or from some other means, and is >still able to fulfill the Geas, is he still bound. For example, a human is >Geased to "Give a noogie to 10 people a day for a year" The human follows this >Geas until one day he breaks his arm, and, filled with despair, decides to >just end it all. The human goes to Heaven. Is the human required to go around >giving noogies to the Seraphim, Mercurians, and all those angels in between, >not to mention the Bodhissatvas, to avoid taking Soul hits? Hee hee hee hee. It'd depend on the GM. If there's coninuity of memory -- i.e., not reincarnation -- then I might say yes, just because it's so mean. Of course, this would result in some interesting and possibly abusive demon tricks, so perhaps it's a maybe, even for me. The easier way, by far, is to say that corporeal death strips away active Geases for humans. Humans are, after all, a qualitatively different sort of being than celestials. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:05:20 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dark Humor >>>Man, that's not at *all* how I play Kobal. Kobal to me is the one who takes the time to install the upside-down font on your computer, then set it so when you boot your system up, all your menus and desktop items have upside down names. Kobal is the one who suggested "The Committee to Re-Elect the President" to Nixon's staff, so that his campaign was run by CREEP. Dave Berry and Dilbert further his word, and we all love it. There are a lot of *good* things* about his Word and what it does, but it also hurts people, subjects them to ridicule, makes them look stupid and undermines their faith in themselves.<<< Ah, you play the "nice" version of Kobal, Kobal the Punster. But going around tittering at satire isn't really Dark Humor. You said it yourself -- if you include Dave Berry and Dilbert and essentially harmless practical jokes, there are a lot of *good* things about his Word...and Kobal is a Prince of Hell. There should be NOTHING *good* about his Word. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:05:26 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> K.K. >>>Malakim, definitionally, Shall Not Suffer Evil To Live.<<< However, living by an oath doesn't mean Malakim are constantly radiating a Need to fulfill that oath. If K.K. reveals herself to a Malakite, says "Hi, I'm a Lilim of Dark Humor!" *then* there might be a flash of "Need to kill this Lilim" that she could hook...IF she can do it before she dies. But even if she manages to pull that trick a couple of times, Malakim aren't stupid. Sooner or later they'll realize what she's up to. So the next time she shows up, the Malakite turns to his Soldier and says "waste her." Or he (or a bunch of Malakim) grab her and drag her to the nearest divine Tether. No more K.K. If a single (weak) demon makes that much of a pest of herself, she's going to go down, period. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:31:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> In>CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler) In article <199903111814.NAA06020@wolfe.bbn.com>, Walter Milliken wrote: > [BTW, you're apparently using one of those $#@#$W MS mail readers that > generates major amounts of garbage in MIME messages -- this is > unfriendly on mailing lists, and you should turn that "feature" off. It > roughly tripled the size of your message for those of us whose > mailreaders don't silently discard the cruft, and it bloats the archived > and digest versions of this list a lot.] Oh I don't know, it actually reduced the size of the message for those of us who have set our readers to silently discard the entire message :-) - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:33:52 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > But after a while, the Malakim realize that she's *K.K.*, and the > only way to get rid of her evil is to *soul-kill* her. And then they > don't need her vessel-dead. They need her soul dead, or helpless in > their hands so they can find out exactly how fragile she is... So > she moves on, because they're no fun anymore. I'm sure word'd get around soon enough to watch for her in particular. And she'd better be -quick- with that Geas because a lot of Malakim are gonna off her the moment they learn what she is, or worse...capture her. > (Though some Malakite might go up against her in celestial > combat and discover that she's got Fighting/1 and Dodge/6, > and Will&Perception 12. "You want a piece of me, Blackwing? > C'mon. Just *try* to take it." And then she runs away if > the Malakite gets friends or might be winning.) And of course. hope no Malakite has a warlike Ofanite as a friend. *Zing* 'Going somewhere, Greenie?' - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:42:43 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Geases... Walter Milliken wrote on 11 March 1999 >>To put it another way, how many levels of vessel are equivalent to >>removing a point of dissonance, in terms of Archangel-hours of work? > >There's no hard-and-fast rule, but I think there's something somewhere >that equates removing 1 dissonance with 10 Essence; In IN there is an opional rule to rid yourself of a point of dissonance by spending 10 pts of Essence Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:51:35 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor - -----Original Message----- From: David Edelstein To: Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com Date: 11 March 1999 23:19 Subject: IN> Dark Humor >>>>Man, that's not at *all* how I play Kobal. Kobal to me is the one who >takes the time to install the upside-down font on your computer, then set >it so when you boot your system up, all your menus and desktop items have >upside down names. Kobal is the one who suggested "The Committee to >Re-Elect the President" to Nixon's staff, so that his campaign was run by >CREEP. Dave Berry and Dilbert further his word, and we all love it. There >are a lot of *good* things* about his Word and what it does, but it also >hurts people, subjects them to ridicule, makes them look stupid and >undermines their faith in themselves.<<< > >Ah, you play the "nice" version of Kobal, Kobal the Punster. But going >around tittering at satire isn't really Dark Humor. You said it yourself -- >if you include Dave Berry and Dilbert and essentially harmless practical >jokes, there are a lot of *good* things about his Word...and Kobal is a >Prince of Hell. There should be NOTHING *good* about his Word. I think good think could some under his Word, but he doesn't try to promote them. Same way that there are *good* things about the Word Drugs but Fleurity would in no way support those good things. Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:01:06 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > I think good think could some under his Word, but he doesn't try to promote > them. Same way that there are *good* things about the Word Drugs but > Fleurity would in no way support those good things. Well, but you'll notice that Fleurity is behind not only crack cocaine but the War on Drugs as well... ;) > Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind Hee hee! We got Ramesh back! - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "I never trust anybody who can't lie." - Caitlin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:07:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> ADMIN: MIME Cruft (Re: CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler)) At 11:31 PM +0000 3/11/99, Rhodri James wrote: >In article <199903111814.NAA06020@wolfe.bbn.com>, > Walter Milliken wrote: >> [BTW, you're apparently using one of those $#@#$W MS mail readers that >> generates major amounts of garbage in MIME messages -- this is >> unfriendly on mailing lists, and you should turn that "feature" off. It >> roughly tripled the size of your message for those of us whose >> mailreaders don't silently discard the cruft, and it bloats the archived >> and digest versions of this list a lot.] > >Oh I don't know, it actually reduced the size of the message for those of >us who have set our readers to silently discard the entire message :-) Still, seriously, not everyone has a mailer that does that, and the *digest* certainly doesn't. So, as a general warning -- turn off your MIME. My mailer may discard the stuff silently, but if I find that someone's not turning off garbage like that, I'll have to unsub them till they do so. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:11:24 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK At 4:33 PM -0800 3/12/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> But after a while, the Malakim realize that she's *K.K.*, and the >> only way to get rid of her evil is to *soul-kill* her. [...] > > I'm sure word'd get around soon enough to watch for her in particular. >And she'd better be -quick- with that Geas because a lot of Malakim are >gonna off her the moment they learn what she is, or worse...capture her. This is true. Nobody said she was *easy*. Still, she'd keep a Malakite PC on his/her/its toes. Which is all she was meant to do, really. Be an NPC munchkin who's hard to kill without twisted consequences. >> (Though some Malakite might go up against her in celestial >> combat and discover that she's got Fighting/1 and Dodge/6, >> and Will&Perception 12. "You want a piece of me, Blackwing? >> C'mon. Just *try* to take it." And then she runs away if >> the Malakite gets friends or might be winning.) > > And of course. hope no Malakite has a warlike Ofanite as a friend. >*Zing* 'Going somewhere, Greenie?' "My Heart. Wanna follow?" (Seriously, 72 Soul Hits and Dodge/6 is nothing to sneer at. I mean, she has a decent chance of taking a high-power (but not maxed out) Smite without losing a Force, I think I calculated. Then I went glork.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:14:02 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor At 8:01 PM -0500 3/11/99, EDG wrote: >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> I think good think could some under his Word, but he doesn't try to promote >> them. Same way that there are *good* things about the Word Drugs but >> Fleurity would in no way support those good things. > >Well, but you'll notice that Fleurity is behind not only crack cocaine >but the War on Drugs as well... ;) (As a note, I, personally, don't class Dave Barry as *truly* Dark Humor. Still -- there are times when if you don't laugh, you'd cry. The thing with Kobal is that he wants to make sure nobody *ever* cries. Only laughs, because other people aren't real, aren't anything more than amusement for the solitary self. Of course, he's also an Impudite, so it's great to be the 'class clown.' Look at all that attention! Or so I'd say, with the LE hat off.) >> Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind > >Hee hee! We got Ramesh back! Princess Beth nitpicks that it's *the* Wind, not just Wind. So maybe he's just claiming to be an angel... - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:01:27 EST From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor In a message dated 99-03-11 18:09:34 EST, AmadanSJG wrote: << Ah, you play the "nice" version of Kobal, Kobal the Punster. But going around tittering at satire isn't really Dark Humor. You said it yourself -- if you include Dave Berry and Dilbert and essentially harmless practical jokes, there are a lot of *good* things about his Word...and Kobal is a Prince of Hell. There should be NOTHING *good* about his Word. >> I would play this version of Kobal myself. But, this doesn't preclude Kobal from having some really monstrous jokes that make no one but himself and his top servitors laugh. I suppose that I can see why there should be nothing good about a Demon Prince's word, but the flip side of that is that there should be nothing _bad_ about an Archangel's word. Given some of Michael's and David's practices, I don't agree with that, so I have things grayer. S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:26:09 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor >I think good think could some under his Word, but he doesn't try to promote >them. As they say. . . Dying is easy. Comedy is hard. So naturally, to truly pull off an evil joke takes a lot of work. Sometimes, that work goes to waste and the joke does some semblance of good instead. But then, Kobal just has to send the Servitors who failed miserably to start pranks on Gamesters for a while. . . At least it'll give Kobal a laugh or two. . . Speaking of which, what would make a Habbalah of Dark Humor work for a Word Bound, Distincted, member of Kronos' little fate brigade? >Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind Join the Dark side Ramesh, and together, we can rule the Symphony. I am your Celestial Parental Unit, Ramesh. . . Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Granduer * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1147 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.