From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Mar 12 13:05:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23522 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:05:10 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA08335 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:05:11 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:05:11 -0600 Message-Id: <199903121905.NAA08335@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1149 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, March 12 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1149 In this digest: Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia Re: IN> Lilim and Geases... Re: IN> Dark Humor IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia Re: IN> Dark Humor Re: IN> Dark Humor Re: IN> Dark Humor IN> More stupid Lilim tricks. Re: IN> More stupid Lilim tricks. Re: IN> Dark Humor Re: IN> Dark Humor IN> House Superior: The Archangel of Pride IN> Lilim again (longish) Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:15:55 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia Whistling in the Dark wrote on 12 March 1999 >At 11:09 PM -0500 3/11/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>>Johnny a Soldier of God? I think not. >> >>He was a prideful little snot who risked his soul for a stupid golden >>fiddle.<<< >> >>Nothing prevents Soldiers from being prideful. (They'd just better not >>overreach themselves, and they'd better stay on the right side of Heaven.) >> >One of my 'house' Archangels is the Archangel of Pride, actually. He's the >third Angel of Pride, the first two having Fallen but the Word too >important to leave just to the Demons. (And the only Angel with a Word >that's also one of the Deadly Sins). If folks are interested I'll throw >the writeup up. I think it was in the APG where it talked about Pride is not really being a sin - *Arrogance* is a sin though. (Hmmm maybe if Dominic tried Micheal on arrogance rather than Pride) Oh I'd like to see the write up. Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind "In it's purest form truth is not a polite tap on the shouder. It is a howling reproach. What Moses brought down from Mount Sinai were not the Ten Suggestions." - Ted Koppel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:20:07 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Geases... Anders Gabrielsson wrote on 12 March 1999 09:15 >On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >> It's hard to say which is more work, but I think the principle counts for >> something. "I know it costs you more work to make a new Vessel/6 than to >> remove dissonance, but I couldn't run. It's the principle of the matter." > >I think so too, in general. I think a Superior would be quite worried >about a servitor who prefers taking dissonance to losing a vessel - a >vessel is just a material shell, but dissonance is a mark on the soul, and >shows that the servitor is willing to sacrifice its Superior's Word for >practicalities. Yeah I think the time you start to think of taking dissonace not as a sin and just as a tactical loss you're starting to walk the Slippery path downwards. Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:04:56 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor Elizabeth McCoy wrote on 12 March 1999 >At 8:01 PM -0500 3/11/99, EDG wrote: >>Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> >>> I think good think could some under his Word, but he doesn't try to promote >>> them. Same way that there are *good* things about the Word Drugs but >>> Fleurity would in no way support those good things. >> >>Well, but you'll notice that Fleurity is behind not only crack cocaine >>but the War on Drugs as well... ;) > >(As a note, I, personally, don't class Dave Barry as *truly* Dark >Humor. Still -- there are times when if you don't laugh, you'd cry. >The thing with Kobal is that he wants to make sure nobody *ever* >cries. Only laughs, because other people aren't real, aren't anything >more than amusement for the solitary self. Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding you but if Kobal is all that matters to Kobal (Which I think I agree with you on), then why wolud he care if other people cry? In fact surely other people cry could be funny to him. >Of course, he's also an Impudite, so it's great to be the 'class >clown.' Look at all that attention! > >Or so I'd say, with the LE hat off.) LE? >>> Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind >> >>Hee hee! We got Ramesh back! > >Princess Beth nitpicks that it's *the* Wind, not just Wind. So maybe >he's just claiming to be an angel... D'oh. Why did you stop being the AA of Internal Consistancy? (It's *so* less irritating than Nitpicking! :-) ) > >--Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking >http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 06:58:01 -0800 (PST) From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia >>>>Johnny a Soldier of God? I think not. > >He was a prideful little snot who risked his soul for a stupid golden >fiddle.<<< > >Nothing prevents Soldiers from being prideful. (They'd just better not >overreach themselves, and they'd better stay on the right side of Heaven.) > Well, all right, he *could* have been a Soldier, certainly. But nothing in his actions or motivations suggests that he necessarily *was*, merely because he competed against the Devil. The person I was responding to simply assumed he was a Soldier of God without (IMHO) much justification. Notice the nature of the bargain: If Johnny loses, he loses his very soul to Hell. If he wins, he gets . . . a golden fiddle. If he *were* a Soldier of God, he'd be risking one of Heaven's assets (himself) for no appreciable gain to the forces of Selflessness and Destiny. He would, at the very least, be a Soldier due for a talking-to. And I'm sure I'll like your CPG, but I must say "darn" about Karakash's idea not making it into canon. I rather liked that one. Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campuscwix.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:04:58 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor >Elizabeth McCoy wrote on 12 March 1999 >>D'oh. Why did you stop being the AA of Internal Consistancy? (It's *so* >less irritating than Nitpicking! :-) ) > What do you think Falling *is?* - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:44:13 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor At 2:04 PM +0000 3/12/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote on 12 March 1999 >>(As a note, I, personally, don't class Dave Barry as *truly* Dark >>Humor. Still -- there are times when if you don't laugh, you'd cry. >>The thing with Kobal is that he wants to make sure nobody *ever* >>cries. Only laughs, because other people aren't real, aren't anything >>more than amusement for the solitary self. > >Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding you but if Kobal is all that matters to >Kobal (Which I think I agree with you on), then why wolud he care if other >people cry? Because he's the class clown, and he's an Impudite. He wants everyone to do what *he* wants. (Charmcharmcharm) And he wants them to amuse him. And because his Word used to be Laughter, probably. >In fact surely other people cry could be funny to him. Sure -- but what's funnier is everyone laughing. Everyone. At things which aren't funny, because they've forgotten how to feel compassion. So that the only person they care about is *HIM*, because he can *MAKE* them care (charmcharmcharm). >>Of course, he's also an Impudite, so it's great to be the 'class >>clown.' Look at all that attention! >> >>Or so I'd say, with the LE hat off.) > >LE? Line Editor, where verily my very hiccup is canon. >>>> Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind >>> >>>Hee hee! We got Ramesh back! >> >>Princess Beth nitpicks that it's *the* Wind, not just Wind. So maybe >>he's just claiming to be an angel... > >D'oh. Why did you stop being the AA of Internal Consistancy? (It's *so* >less irritating than Nitpicking! :-) ) Archangel of Archives. And that's my other hat. - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:03:00 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor > >LE? > > Line Editor, where verily my very hiccup is canon. Hiccup? I don't want to know what happens when you burp, then. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:18:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: IN> More stupid Lilim tricks. OK, someone suggests that if a Lilim tries to stop someone fulfilling a geas, the geas ends. Fair enough but does that stop the following trick? And does canon stop the following trick? Lilim gets two low level Geases on J.Random Human. She walks up to J. and says: "Stay still" "Don't stop moving" She then walks off. J.R. dies later that day, because no matter what he does he is actively breaking a Geas. Steve. - ------ When rats leave a sinking ship, where exactly do they think they're going? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:42:43 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> More stupid Lilim tricks. At 4:18 PM +0000 3/12/99, Steve Jessop wrote: >OK, someone suggests that if a Lilim tries to stop someone fulfilling a >geas, the geas ends. Fair enough but does that stop the following trick? >And does canon stop the following trick? > >Lilim gets two low level Geases on J.Random Human. She walks up to J. and >says: >"Stay still" >"Don't stop moving" > >She then walks off. J.R. dies later that day, because no matter what he >does he is actively breaking a Geas. #1: at least one of those is not low level -- it's a negative, not a continuing task. ("Stay Still" is "Don't move.") Furthermore, the second one is at least a level 5 of "causes dissonance/risks vessel loss." Maybe a level 6 of "causes vessel loss." #2: By interfering with the first Geas, she's trying to make it impossible to fulfill (a Geas is supposed to be impossible to resist, remember; it's why Lilim get dissonance if the target resists the hook in the first place), so if she tries this, the first Geas vanishes, or the second won't invoke. (One way to look at it would be that the Lilim is, Balseraphically, forming an INTENTION in her mind, which she then uses the hook to insert into the target's psyche. That INTENTION is the Geas. If she then breaks that INTENTION in her own mind -- such as to form an opposite INTENTION! -- the first will vanish. Likewise, if she tries to thwart her own INTENTION, she will be going against her own personaly reality -- so the INTENTION will vanish. This doesn't work as well with Bright Lilim, but one could probably work around and figure that they're holding a strand of possible Symphonic future, and if they do something to contradict it, they loose hold of it.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:59:41 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Archangel of Archives. And that's my other hat. Which you haven't worn for over a year now. *pout* - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:15:27 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor > > Archangel of Archives. And that's my other hat. > > Which you haven't worn for over a year now. *pout* And today, I finally have dug myself out enough from writing and wedding and work and projects and friends and demands to start doing some updates..... ......when I discover everything has me locked out of it through write permissions. Yeah. There's yer dark humor for ya. Very funny. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:39:57 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> House Superior: The Archangel of Pride As requested.... AKIM -- Archangel of Pride "The world is proud -- eyes bright, looking skyward, reaching beyond its reach." The Word of Pride has never been considered a lucky one for Angels. It smacks of selfishness and the very things the Angels would fight against. Indeed, it is said by younger Angels that Lucifer's own word was Pride, so long ago. (It was not, Lucifer having been Archangel of Light, but the rumor persists.) Several angels with this Word have fallen, but it is also such a powerful one that it cannot be left alone too far. A Seraph, a Mercurian, and a Cherub have all fallen. The one who has held the Word by far the longest is Akim, whose Elohite objectivity has -- to date -- allowed him to further the word of Pride without succumbing to its hubris. Akim has been an Archangel for less than a thousand years, though he held the Word of Pride for millennia before as one of Michael's Servitors. With the rise of the British Empire, with France's glories, with the Holy Roman Empire and Byzantium, all of which did their greatest works under the strength of Pride, Akim raised to the levels of the Archangels. Rome had almost done this for him, but Rome's fall was as due to Pride as anything else. It is a lesson he has learned well -- the Pride of a single Empire and her Citizens strengthens his Word, but to favor one over all is to lead to eventual catastrophe. Only in a wide range of proud people and countries can Pride flourish without succumbing. Akim's Servitors seek out those with low self-esteem, working to raise their self-worth. To take pride in who they are and what they do. They are by nature independent, not generally working with others but also not working against them -- believing the lowering of another's pride is not a way to increase your own, after all. They come together and work with great esprit de corps. Achievement is the fuel for true Pride, and so Servitors of Pride work to give humanity achievements, and to teach them pride in what they have accomplished. Of course, being so proud themselves, and taking such great Pride in their Master, Akim's Servitors can occasionally be insufferable to be around. Akim's human vessel, male or female, always looks good, with brunette hair that's well cared for. Akim also uses the vessel of an eagle or a great cat when discretion is called for. He obviously takes great pride in his appearance. DISSONANCE Angels of Akim take dissonance whenever their actions (or inactions) work to damage the self-esteem of others. They also take dissonance when humiliated. False humility is *not* a problem with Servitors of Pride. (Servitors of Kobal *love* Servitors of Akim. That affection is not returned.) CHOIR ATTUNMENTS Akim's Servitors are attuned to the ebb and flow of Pride. Both honest pride in accomplishments rightfully earned, and false pride that rings hollow reverberate in the Symphony, which Akim's Servitors can hear. SERAPHIM Seraphim of Akim can look a man in the eye and know precisely how responsible he was for a given achievement, and how proud he should be in it as a result. Their judgement is exact, and brooks no argument. Any lack of pride or inflated pride the person feels can then be worked on as the Seraph feels fit. CHERUBIM Cherubim of Akim, as a part of their resonance, attune not only to a person but to the physical works or symbols which that person takes pride in. Thus, he can always learn what condition those works are in, and when they are in grave danger or destroyed, he learns it as well. OFANIM Always achievement oriented as well as driven to speed, Ofanim of Akim have perfect recall when it comes to remembering what routes they have taken, both with their resonance and without it. As a result, these angels are never lost, and can make perfect maps of their routes. Maps which naturally, being the fastest possible routes between two points, represent a source of great Pride for them. (Though a saner... or 'less adventurous...' Angel might balk at following an Ofanite trail.) ELOHIM The always-objective Elohim of Akim can look into peoples' eyes and, with their resonance, know the balance of their self-esteem, and the things that both increase and reduce it. If their pride has taken a mortal blow because of something they have done -- or *believe* they have done -- these Angels will know it, and will further know if the event actually warrants such belief. MALAKIM Beings of Honor understand pride innately, and none are more honorable than Malakim. Malakim of Akim automatically sense craven attacks and have a chance to block them. One cannot effectively ambush Malakim of Akim and hope to succeed. Only by standing before them proudly can one effectively fight them. (Whereupon they will generally pound you into red paste. Catch twenty two.) KYRIOTATES When taking hosts among a group of teammates or otherwise among a group of people who have a reason for close affiliation, Kyriotates of Akim may possess up to *twice* their total Forces. Obviously by possessing a group, the Kyriotate can coordinate their activities better, giving them more to be proud about. The group in question has to be one where all the members could reasonably expect to know each other's names. So, an Army Platoon is an appropriate group. An Army Brigade is not. Sports teams, street gangs, local chapters of organizations... all of these are appropriate. MERCURIANS Akim's Mercurians are masters at counseling and helping those with self doubt or shame to find pride in themselves. In using their resonance, Mercurians of Akim can determine the web of relationships between a person's shame and pride, self worth and self doubt, and now the person sees himself in relation to others in terms of personal worth. With a second successful resonance, a Mercurian can predict activities and projects which the person could do that would raise their pride in themselves, if they can be convinced to try them. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS Eyes of Ice: In a dueling situation (most single combat will do), the angel may lock eyes with his opponent and make a second attack in a round, at a cost of 1 essence -- this one Celestial. The Servitor gets a +3 to this attack. If successful, the attack does no Celestial damage, but the opponent is stunned for a number of rounds according to the check digit. 1-2: 1 round; 3-4: 2 rounds; 5: 3 rounds. On a 6 check digit, the opponent's will fails him and he yields the combat to the Angel, unless the combat is to the Death (in which case, the opponent is stunned 3 rounds as per 5.) Any defense the opponent has to Celestial combat applies to Eyes of Ice as well. Eyes of Ice will work on beings incapable of Celestial Combat (such as humans or Celestials in a Corporeal Vessel) but cannot be used against beings with no Celestial Forces. Just Assessment: With this attunement and three essence, the Angel can cause a group to notice an appropriate achievement of a specific person, and objectively rate or criticize it. For example, if an art show is taking place, the Angel could cause the press and critics at the show to take note of an overlooked work or a work by an overlooked artist, and render the appropriate acclaim to it. At a meeting of sportswriters, the Angel could cause them to focus on the baseball player with the excellent average at getting on-base, but without the home run numbers to put him on the front page of the sports section. This Attunement may bias the targets into giving true, official notice of an appropriate person, but the judgement they make on that person's achievement will be their true opinions of the work, without being slanted by the Angel. A mediocre work will get a lot of attention *as* a mediocre work, for example. However, an overlooked masterpiece or an unsung hero will -- perhaps finally -- get the respect and admiration deserved. RELATIONS Pride is a slippery thing. Almost everyone will agree that it is good to take pride in one's work, one's heritage, one's achievements... however, the road from self-esteem to self-centeredness is short, and many feel Pride is dangerous. Akim's Elohite nature helps him to get on with most of the major Superiors, but he has had to develop tactics to deal with those who are hostile to him. Eli and Akim understand their individual natures *very* well indeed. Akim gets on very well with Michael, his former Superior. Laurence also appreciates Akim (esprit de corps is second nature to a Malakite). Yves seems to regard Pride as a route to Destiny or Fate depending on its application, and therefore works with Akim to promote the former. Novalis is also dedicated to the gentle raising of self-esteem, and Akim appreciates her approach. Which is not to say Akim does not have detractors. David is suspicious of Pride as a way of dividing people into factions instead of joining together with them, and Akim feels the Archangel of Stone's way leads to the individual being subsumed into the group. Jordi feels humanity is already too proud -- some racial humility (or humiliation) might do them some good. Akim objectively understands the purpose of the Inquisition, but has also seen it applied to reflect Dominic's personal biases too often, and those biases are often designed to cut down the self-esteem of others. (Akim has not forgotten his own Interrogation when he was Servitor of Michael during Michael's trial.) And while Akim was a vocal supporter of Gabriel's during her trial, Gabriel's servitors dislike the airs Akim's Servitors put on, and Akim and Gabriel are clearly hostile to one another. Akim also feels her self-imposed exile reeks of hubris and the dark side of Pride -- for there was another who once said that it was better to Rule in Hell than Serve in Heaven.... Allied: Laurence, Michael, Novalis Associated: Eli, Yves Hostile: David, Dominic, Gabriel, Jordi DISTINCTIONS Vassal of Dignity: With a word or two (and a cost of one essence), the Angel can remind a broken or humiliated person of their heritage or other source of personal pride, and return them to a state of dignity in travail. Friend of the Family: With this distinction, the Angel can strengthen ties between an appropriate group of people (defined under the Kyriotate attunement above). With a successful Will roll and two essence spent, the Angel can smooth relations and calm intergroup bickering for a number of days equal to the Check Digit. This attunement does not work on Celestials. Master of the Elite: With this attunement, an Angel automatically succeeds at any Will or other roll where the angel's pride or self-esteem could be under attack. Attacks designed to humiliate or break the spirit of the Angel will fail. BASIC RITES Attend a speech designed to inspire pride (lasting at least half an hour). Help a human research his genealogy or heritage for at least two hours. Lead a rousing cheer at a sporting event. CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 2 +1 A first place ribbon or school award. +2 A report card with all A's. +3 The original manuscript of someone's first published novel. +4 A medal awarded by the head of a country to a citizen. +5 A major World Championship symbol (The Stanley Cup, the Vince Lombardi Trophy, etc.) +6 A source of terrific national pride (The Stone of Scone, the original of the Constitution of the United States.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:08:15 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Lilim again (longish) Can we keep this one simple, I've noticed a lot of the threads on here tend to complicate things as they get more involved. I don't think this is a always a good thing! :-) Ok, the rulebook states that the Lilim resonance is not inherently evil. Therefore a Lilim can redeem and still remain a Lilim. I personally don't think the Bright Lilim section in FotM is particularly clear. At least not for me! Sure a Lilim can behave selflessly, by not collecting Geases and so forth. But that's not very realistic, or very Lilim. A creature without this resonance isn't a Lilim, thus a Bright Lilim - one who perhaps doesn't collect these debts isn't really the same creature. But what I get from the rules is that because the Lilim rez is 'neutral' she is the same creature because she has the same power - she can read needs and sow Geases. That's not right, the Lilim rez is evil. It's evil because it's selfish and God has decreed that selfishness is evil; or perhaps more accurately, evil is selfishness. Lucifer was selfish in following his own heart and rebelling; those who follow him are also selfish. Lilith was selfish because she disobeyed God as well. But that's not really relevant; the Lilim rez is selfish for the simple reason that it works solely for it's own benefit. It's as simple as that. That's what I don't understand how a Bright Lilim can maintain the same rez. To my mind the Bright Lilim archetype need to be reworked. There's potential in the idea. Whistling in the dark: "To my mind, the Lilim resonance is a gift (the only one Lilith doesn't make them pay for, since they pay for all their Forces) given so that no one can abuse them" I doubt that Lilith is so generous. And we all know she definitely gets something in return. "But to redeem, they have to overcome all that they know, and accept that there might be something better than Looking Out For Number One" And yet, with the rez unchanged, they can't think that. I mean you don't get redeemed Calabim with their resonance intatc, they revert to Ofanim resonance. This makes sense, but the Lilim one doesn't. "There are Malakim who would disagree. Break your word to one of them and he might be perfectly willing to do nasty celestial things to you." He might, but he isn't bound by his very nature to do so. He night want to, but that's only because Malakim are portrayed in this rather 2-D way. Surely, even with their honourable natures, even they could see (with the benefit of corporeal experience) that life just aint like that! But even so, breaking your word to a Malakite is scary but it doesn't cause you soul damage as a result. A geas does. Beside you don't know tat such things exist now do you! ;-) "I am a man. I see things as Mortals do, in Mortal terms." Exactomundo! "If I sign a contract with someone and fail to meet my end of it, the other side invokes the Geas they're capable of" But that 'Geas' isn't the same thing at all. What you are referring to, a lawsuit for instance, is a man-0made construct. It's not pat of your nature is it. It isn't a celestial power created by infernal forces. Put it another way; you don't necessarily make a contract with me just for your own end. That's the Lilim mindset, fulfil someone's need because it allows you dominion over them. Now does that sound selfless? As I said before, if Lilim could not inflict geas as part of her rez, only read a need, she would be a totally different creature. She wouldn't be motivated to do things simply because it gave her power over them. "In Celestial Terms, a Lilim's contract is Enforced. You accept her service, you pay it back. Or else." But you aren't entering into a contract with a Lilim are you. She doesn't tell you at the time what she wants she just walks off with a knowing grin! She doesn't even tell you that you will have to return the favour either! She doesn't have to because that's how the mechanics work. Now a Bright might just tell you, but even she couldn't tell you the whole truth because it would breach the 'Masquerade' (tm)! I don't recall it saying anywhere that that's what BL's do anyway! And anyway, maybe contracts are selfish! The jury's still out on that one - at least for me! "If she tricks you into it... no one said life was fair." Apart from the angels, who would like life to be fair. Fair means gfood! And if she tricks you she is certainly not being 'Bright!' "And if in the end Humanity is that micron closer to Destiny and not Fate, it's selfless on her part" I never said Lilim couldn't be selfless…it's just their resonance! It is inherently selfish! To invoke it means you need a selfish mindset. You would have to be Kobal-tastically jaded to think it otherwise! "It's not the gun that's evil, it's the target the bullet hits that makes it good or evil." No, it's the mindset of the gunman. A gun is a tool. One human could shoot a demon; is that a good act? What about if that human was a lifelong pacifist, an ordinary human who abhors violence. To her mind she don't know what demons are, therefore she has just murdered someone! That has to count for something! Maybe an angel could forgive her, but… "Nope. Not a bit. It's only harmful if the other party welshes. If Brights *can't* enforce the agreement, it's one-sided against them and no Lilim would redeem no matter *why.*" Well that and the fact that you are consorting with evil! Of course it's harmful. A Bright who 'enforces' the agreement is risking falling in my book. She cannot user her Geas power as it stands. We need something else for these characters. In fact why would a Lilim redeem; what could break that mindset? "If we were two kids in the playground, and you offered me a go on your spacehopper in return for my milky way bar, and I gave you my milky way bar and you ate it and then you told me to get lost, because it's *your* spacehopper and you changed your ind, I have a right to justice." If I did that, sure I'd be a pretty mean SOB. But if you are filled with thoughts of vengeance are you not flirting with your Ftae? (especially if beating the snotkins out of your classmate is the first step toward a life of violence and crime as opposed to a destiny of peace and inspiration). I digress! Who says you have a right? Dominic? (cant imagine him hanging around school playgrounds!) the point is that you, as a lilim are saying that you will give me that milky way soley to get your grubby mitts on my spacehopper (I wonder who on this list would also like a go?). that's mean because you are using our friendship to get to my big bouncy orange ball! I'm crying now! I hope you are happy! My best fwiend is a demon, how would I know that. The minute you inflict that geas you are back in hell because you aren't being selfless; being selfless means you accept that fact that I m might not live up to my end of the deal, but that's ok because I'm a human and you love me for who I am. "This is a *deal.* People who break deals are selfish. People who force them to abide by the deal they made are not innately so." Yes they are, and no they are not; BUT Lilim are innately selfish BECAUSE they're demons! Also, using that resonance is a selfish act because it requires selfish thinking to use it. "So... if a Cherub tells a mob boss to leave his charge alone or suffer, and the Mob boss fires a gub…and the Cherub uses the Song of Shields to protect…and then teaches that Mob Boss a lesson... that's wrong because the Mob Boss had no idea the Cherub had special powers and couldn't know he wouldn't be able to shoot the charge? You are not entering into a deal with Cheubim. All the Chrub is required to do is look after his charge, anything else is personal satisfaction. Maybe even pride! That mobster was not entering into an agreement with a Lilim. It's not a accurate example. "I'm sorry, but I don't have any compassion for someone who agrees to do something and then breaks his word, especially if the task is for the greater good. Let him be forced or let him be damaged -- it's not the *Bright* who's being selfish." Ah, but I believe an angel would, or should. If angels cant feel compassion then they are on the slippery slope! It's this cold indifference that makes Hell's victories all the more common. Look at the world! I don't think people should break their word, but if you and I enter into a deal (one in which I would naturally assume you are at least human!) and you do so, I must accept that and forgive you for it. That is the grace of heaven. Ramesh: "This is In Nomine. The Angels might be wrong about what's best for you or for others, but that's their motivation and what they're working towards. Selflessness and Destiny. I don't get this argument at all." It's not an argument. I saying that if Bright's are motivated to help people through fulfilling their needs, what means do they have to know how to best go about that. Asking other people defeats the point of it. "I don't think Demons can be considered evil solely because they are demons, I think you should judge them by the same methods you would any other person. (But of course usually they would be judged as evil)" You cannot my friend, for God hath judged them and God's word is absolute. Demons are evil, they are selfish and evil, because evil is selfish. Evil serves only itself, like the firstborn of the damned, the Morningstar. This is what makes IN fun as well! "I agree that Darks act like that, but Brights act radically different. Initially they tend to be sickeningly *nice*," If they do they need different resonance rules. "So what if the legal institutions are man made? What difference does it make?" a Geas is made of celestial stuff. One could say that they were created by God as aprt of the symphony. God made man, but mand made lawsuits and contracts! "By "lowly DP" to whom would you be referring, surely you're not describing Lilith as "lowly"" Actually I was being generic. Any DP. "Yes it is! Both parties have shared their bread and cheese, both get a cheese sandwich, it's a fair exchange." Maybe bit what's the Lilim's motivation in sharing. Something selfish. And insecure as well, therefore something devoid of trust and love, divine qualities. "If I *owe* you a go on my space hopper, then you are simply making sure justice is done." If that is how you look at life (as a lilim), then you are selfish and the world will look like the hell you came from because it will be devoid of the light of heaven, the light of trust and love, because you cannot love. You cannot give of yourself freely. Is killing a soul justice? "Again, Brights and Darks are different." Not in their resonance! Martin PS I will probably get my wrist slapped by Ground Control for this, but I have a copy of Taroticum for Kult for sale. And if anyone knows where I can get a copy of Black Rain by Ginger Baker, I'll be a happy man! ~g~ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:40:29 -0500 From: IceHeart EvenFall Subject: Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) > >"But to redeem, they have to overcome all that they know, and accept >that there might be something better than Looking Out For Number One" > >And yet, with the rez unchanged, they can't think that. I mean you don't >get redeemed Calabim with their resonance intatc, they revert to Ofanim >resonance. This makes sense, but the Lilim one doesn't. I've stayed out of this whole debate so far 'cause I haven't read my books in ages, and I may be VERY off base, feel free to tell me so. Geasa don't have to benefit the user directly do they? Bright walks up to J Random Human and makes a deal, I'll save your life from this car wreck (rather immediate need) if you stop smoking. (lame example, but I'm braindead) Deal's been made, geas invoked makes the life of the "victim" better against his/her will. and doesn't do anything for the Bright 'cept make her feel good for saving someone from Lung Cancer. >And anyway, maybe contracts are selfish! The jury's still out on that >one - at least for me! But not all contracts have to be selfish, just 'cause you're making something against their will doesn't mean that you're getting anything out of it for yourself. Ice. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IceHeart [iceheart@iceheart.org] [http://www.iceheart.org] "We live in a society populated with lots of people who think they have lots of rights but no duties, obligations or responsibilities. " - The Misanthropic Bitch ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:36:59 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Martin Arnold wrote: [Lilim resonance is/isn't evil] I have an opinion but instead of airing it can I put in a vote for "we've beaten this subject to death?" Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:00:34 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia Stacy Stroud wrote: > Notice the nature of the bargain: If Johnny loses, he loses his very soul > to Hell. If he wins, he gets . . . a golden fiddle. If he *were* a > Soldier of God, he'd be risking one of Heaven's assets (himself) for no > appreciable gain to the forces of Selflessness and Destiny. He would, at > the very least, be a Soldier due for a talking-to. I dunno... a relic? Lucifer's Golden Fiddle (Unique Relic) Performance: Fiddle/3 The owner of the Golden Fiddle may use it in the invocation of any demon whom he can normally summon, by spending a point of Essence to activate it and then making a successful Fiddling roll. The check digit of that roll is added to the chance of invocation for that invocation only. A failed roll does not subtract from the chance of invocation; rather, it reduces the check digit of the summoned demon's reaction roll (see IN, p.157) on the next successful invocation. (Remember that the next successful invocation could be some time after the Fiddle has been played! The fiddler might miss this roll, and the next thirty, and the effects of the Fiddle would still be active if the thirty-first invocation were successful. It's not cumulative, though; each successive Fiddling erases the effects of the first. Also, the fiddler must be playing when he invokes the demon; last night's jam session doesn't count.) The Fiddle does not allow anyone to summon a demon they would not otherwise be able to summon, with two exceptions: the owner of the fiddle may invoke the demon who gave it to him, as per sorcery's Summoning rules; and, anytime the Fiddle is played, if the player gets an infernal Intervention on the fiddling roll, Lucifer himself appears to check up on his Fiddle. (Roll reaction here for Lucifer _and_ the owner; on a CD of 1 for the Morningstar, he will destroy the owner's current form and take back the Fiddle, while on a 1-2 for the owner, said owner will be thoroughly stunned for [CD] rounds.) The Golden Fiddle may exist on all three planes, keeping the same form through all of them. Although it is a relic, its real power is its invocation ability, and it grants no Songs. - -- Comments? - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "I never trust anybody who can't lie." - Caitlin ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1149 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.