From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Mar 12 15:10:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16934 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:10:09 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA17101 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:09:51 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:09:51 -0600 Message-Id: <199903122109.PAA17101@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1150 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, March 12 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1150 In this digest: IN> Fluff (Re: Dark Humor) Re: IN> Re: KK IN> [ADMIN] Re: Lilim again (longish) Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia Re: IN> [ADMIN] Re: Lilim again (longish) Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia Re: IN> Kobal and the Golden Gophers... Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) Re: IN> Kobal and the Golden Gophers... Re: IN> Kobal and the Golden Gophers... Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:03:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fluff (Re: Dark Humor) At 11:59 AM -0500 3/12/99, Casca wrote: >On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Archangel of Archives. And that's my other hat. > >Which you haven't worn for over a year now. *pout* Sure I have. But just not to post here... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:16:31 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK >From: Kevin Walsh > >As for my opinion of Kobal, I have an example of a specific incident from >the Soviet Union which is a great example of Dark Humour at work. > >The year is 1937. The place is a meeting of the district Communist Party, >whose chairman has recently been arrested in the purges. At the end of the >meeting, the new chairman calls for an ovation to Comrade Stalin. >Everybody stands up and applauds, and keeps applauding because no one is >prepared to be the first to stop. There are, after all NKVD members >present, and there must have been more than one informer at the meeting >anyway. The applause continued for over 10 minutes before the director of >the paper factory stopped and sat down, followed almost immediately by >everyone else. Shortly thereafter the director was arrested on a >different charge. When given his sentence to sign weeks later, he was told >"Never be the first to stop applauding." > >That, to me, is an example of Dark Humour at its purest. The destruction >of lives in nonsensically cruel ways, and the creation of despair thereby. I'm glad I'm not the only one who found the history of the Soviet Union to be a great inspiration for portraying Kobal. The sheer *blindness* of the system's malice is at once terrifying and hilarious, which suits a demon prince quite well. There's a line in Blake's _The Marriage of Heaven and Hell_ which captures the essence of Kobal's word perfectly: "Excess of sorrow laughs. Excess of joy weeps." - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:19:22 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [ADMIN] Re: Lilim again (longish) At 12:36 PM -0600 3/12/99, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Martin Arnold wrote: > >[Lilim resonance is/isn't evil] > >I have an opinion but instead of airing it can I put in a vote for "we've >beaten this subject to death?" It looks dead to me, Jim. - --Beth, Djinn List Admin. Do I give a care? No. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:19:59 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia EDG, i commend your creativity in devising Lucifer's Golden Fiddle, but i completely mistrust a Soldier of God's motivation in acquiring said relic. sure, i suppose Johnny might use the Fiddle to summon demons while his angel friends are hanging around so the demon can be quickly dispatched, but that smacks of not a little treachary--not a quality most angels or Archangels would inspire in their servitors. -=|horsefly|=- ...had a girlfriend who played the fiddle once; she weren't too bad.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:19:51 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> [ADMIN] Re: Lilim again (longish) At 02:19 PM 3/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >>I have an opinion but instead of airing it can I put in a vote for "we've >>beaten this subject to death?" > >It looks dead to me, Jim. > please can we keep talking about it I like it so much Ben(secretly Kobal) Cherub of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:55:32 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) Martin Arnold wrote: > That's not right, the Lilim rez is evil. It's evil because it's selfish > and God has decreed that selfishness is evil; or perhaps more > accurately, evil is selfishness. Lucifer was selfish in following his > own heart and rebelling; those who follow him are also selfish. Lilith > was selfish because she disobeyed God as well. But that's not really > relevant; the Lilim rez is selfish for the simple reason that it works > solely for it's own benefit. I'm not sure how many examples people have to give until you realize that doesn't have to be for the Lilim's own benefit; I won't add to the list. But let me point out one other feature that I beleive I remember from the rules: The Lilim can remove the geas at any time. If generic Bright Lilim geases you to get drug treatment and you completely ignore the geas despite the damage it's causing you long enough to convince her that you aren't ever going to obey it, she can remove the geas. End of damage, beginning of the end of problem. It's still not selfish. J. Michael Neal, Who, speaking of the other on-going thread, thinks Kobal has outdone himself getting officials of his beloved Gophers to pretty much shoot themsleves in the head. Everyone else is laughing and I'm angry and depressed. Yep, sounds like his handiwork. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:54:05 -0600 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia At 11:19 AM 3/12/99 -0800, you wrote: >EDG, i commend your creativity in devising Lucifer's Golden Fiddle, but i >completely mistrust a Soldier of God's motivation in acquiring said relic. >sure, i suppose Johnny might use the Fiddle to summon demons while his >angel friends are hanging around so the demon can be quickly dispatched, >but that smacks of not a little treachary--not a quality most angels or >Archangels would inspire in their servitors. I don't know - I think that at least a couple of the Hawk Archangels would quite relish such a creation. I can see a squad of War Malakim and Cherubim sitting around in wait while a Mercurian starts fiddling "Devil went Down..." to summon the demons into a divine tether. Kind of a refreshing way to take a short break for them. Hmmm...demonic plot seed. Demons are disappearing throughout Atlanta, especially near an old armory in the middle of downtown. The only clue to their disappearances seems to be a haunting tune that is heard before the demon disappears. Nybbas, who has controlled the city since Ted Turner took it over on the corporeal realm (Soldier of Hell if I ever saw one), is a little concerned ("What do you mean, the Demon of CNN just disappeared on air?"), calls in a few favors, and puts together a squad to find out what's been happening in _his_ city. [O] Drew Johnson - CLA - Office of Info Tech [O] x5-4885 - http://lucix.cla.umn.edu/djohnson/ [O] djohnson@cla.umn.edu - ICQ: 10800645 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:58:19 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) > > On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Martin Arnold wrote: > > [Lilim resonance is/isn't evil] Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > I have an opinion but instead of airing it can I put in a vote for "we've > beaten this subject to death?" I agree with Ms. Bartley. It looks like folks have become entrenched in their positions on this questions. Time to move on. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "it's a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milkbone underwear" Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:04:48 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) > I'm not sure how many examples people have to give until you realize that > doesn't have to be for the Lilim's own benefit; I won't add to the list. > But let me point out one other feature that I beleive I remember from the > rules: The Lilim can remove the geas at any time. If generic Bright Lilim > geases you to get drug treatment and you completely ignore the geas despite > the damage it's causing you long enough to convince her that you aren't ever > going to obey it, she can remove the geas. End of damage, beginning of the > end of problem. It's still not selfish. *Sigh* Geasa are a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. The selfish part comes from the detection of the needs and the applications. My computer is neither good nor evil. If I write a virus on it and let it loose through the net, then I'm either stupid or evil or both, but the computer didn't have a contributing part of the decision process on moral grounds. The tool has no affinity for either side: it cannot feel, it is not sentient, it does not know, it is not in control. Geasa are the exact same thing - they're a wrench, not the carpenter. And that's the difference. That's really, you know, it. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:13:21 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia > At 11:19 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Horsefly wrote: > >EDG, i commend your creativity in devising Lucifer's Golden Fiddle, but i > >completely mistrust a Soldier of God's motivation in acquiring said relic. > >sure, i suppose Johnny might use the Fiddle to summon demons while his > >angel friends are hanging around so the demon can be quickly dispatched, > >but that smacks of not a little treachary--not a quality most angels or > >Archangels would inspire in their servitors. You're missing the obvious motivation -- to keep the fiddle from falling into the hands of someone who _will_ use it to summon demons for evil purposes. Taking it out of circulation, putting it into safe keeping [thinking of the confession of St. Peter, kept in a secure vault, away from all eyes, that was the McGuffin in the book, _The Gemini Contenders_ [title approx., it has been _way_ too long since I last set eyes on it, though come to think of it, it would make a wonderful plot seed for IN]. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "it's a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milkbone underwear" Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:13:08 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Kobal and the Golden Gophers... In a message dated 3/12/99 11:47:21 AM, eeyore@visi.com writes: >J. Michael Neal, >Who, speaking of the other ongoing thread, thinks Kobal has outdone himself >getting officials of his beloved Gophers to pretty much shoot themselves in >the head. Everyone else is laughing and I'm angry and depressed. Yep, >sounds like his handiwork. Of course, being from Washington (the State) I like Gonzaga, just a bit.... But if the same thing happens to the Stanford team, I'm going to call the forces of ... Wait a second, Gonzaga is a Catholic school. The members of the Golden Gophers did something dishonest and are being punished. And I think is saw a guy near Key Arena yesterday in a long, hooded cloak... Mark (Judgment, my *%%) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:15:38 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) >That's not right, the Lilim rez is evil. It's evil because it's selfish >and God has decreed that selfishness is evil; or perhaps more >accurately, evil is selfishness. Lucifer was selfish in following his >own heart and rebelling; those who follow him are also selfish. Lilith >was selfish because she disobeyed God as well. But that's not really >relevant; the Lilim rez is selfish for the simple reason that it works >solely for it's own benefit. > All right, what we have is circular logic. Let me be as direct as you, for the sake of simplicity . The Lilim Resonance is, in fact, the *antithesis* of selfish. It is utterly, totally fair. Lilim are the one Band whose word can be trusted, because they can Geas themselves with their own resonance. They deal specificially with fair things. They are fair. They give like value for like value. Only in selfishly reneging the deal (which no Lilim would *ever* do) could you take damage. The one thing that this keeps coming back to is that it's somehow selfish for Lilim to ask people to pay them for services rendered. It's somehow selfish that when they don't pay them, they can force them or *really* mess up their day. I'm sorry, but that's simply not right. If you make a deal, Honor your Word. If you don't, don't cry when Bad Things Happen To You. >It's as simple as that. That's what I don't understand how a Bright >Lilim can maintain the same rez. To my mind the Bright Lilim archetype >need to be reworked. There's potential in the idea. > I disagree, for a reason that will come clearer below, but it comes to "Lilim are not Fallen Angels, nor are they Redeemed Demons. They are Something Else." >Whistling in the dark: "To my mind, the Lilim resonance is a gift (the >only one Lilith doesn't make them pay for, since they pay for all their >Forces) given so that no one can abuse them" > >I doubt that Lilith is so generous. And we all know she definitely gets >something in return. What Lilith gets is a people she can create with a gift the Princes (and Archangels covet) so they're willing to deal with her. She charges her daughters for life, but the feature she gives them she sells on the open market -- the Lilim don't have to pay for it, because they're the commodity that Lilith trades. > >"But to redeem, they have to overcome all that they know, and accept >that there might be something better than Looking Out For Number One" > >And yet, with the rez unchanged, they can't think that. I mean you don't >get redeemed Calabim with their resonance intatc, they revert to Ofanim >resonance. This makes sense, but the Lilim one doesn't. > Sigh. The Reasonance isn't Selfish, the Lilim Is. Period. If you have a Geas/6 on a Calabite of Gluttony, and you force him to eat a nuclear weapon before it can take out a large chunk of a city and a Divine Tether with that Geas, and he then turns around and kills *you* because you foiled his plan and got him in hot water with his Superior, you haven't been selfish. And if the Rulebook says "this is not innately evil," it's safe to say it isn't in Canon. And I for one see that very clearly. It's not selfish. It's *fair.* >"There are Malakim who would disagree. Break your word to one of them >and he might be perfectly willing to do nasty celestial things to you." > >He might, but he isn't bound by his very nature to do so. He night want >to, but that's only because Malakim are portrayed in this rather 2-D >way. Surely, even with their honourable natures, even they could see >(with the benefit of corporeal experience) that life just aint like >that! But even so, breaking your word to a Malakite is scary but it >doesn't cause you soul damage as a result. A geas does. All right. I need to ask. If a person dying eliminates a Geas, how is it possible a Geas soul kills you? A person might *die* for resisting a Geas, but he will then plunge into Hell, ascend into Heaven (unlikely -- bloody Oath Breaker), or reincarnate, and any of those conditions means No More Geas. A *Celestial* may soul-die. But shouldn't they know better? >"I am a man. I see things as Mortals do, in Mortal terms." > >Exactomundo! > >"If I sign a contract with someone and fail to meet my end of it, the >other side invokes the Geas they're capable of" > >But that 'Geas' isn't the same thing at all. What you are referring to, >a lawsuit for instance, is a man-0made construct. It's not pat of your >nature is it. It isn't a celestial power created by infernal forces. Put >it another way; you don't necessarily make a contract with me just for >your own end. That's the Lilim mindset, fulfil someone's need because it >allows you dominion over them. Now does that sound selfless? *No,* it's *not* the Lilim Mindset. It's the utter, one hundred percent *opposite* of the Lilim Mindset. The Lilim Mindset is *Freedom.* The Resonance allows the Lilim to protect herself and become valuable. It doesn't give her dominion over anyone. The moment a Geas is fulfilled, it vanishes, and if that Gease wants to he can turn around with a God Gun and shoot her dead after he fulfills his end of the bargain. > As I said >before, if Lilim could not inflict geas as part of her rez, only read a >need, she would be a totally different creature. She wouldn't be >motivated to do things simply because it gave her power over them. > Um... She can. The Geas is optional. The Brights often don't invoke it. When they do, it is in a selfless cause -- be it preventing a selfish/evil/demonic act from taking place, or be it forcing a person to do something that will benefit them but they resist. I have a friend without a job who hates filling out Job Apps. If I had a Bright handy, I would *love* to have that Bright get a significant Geas on my friend, to force him to work at filling out job apps on a daily basis and do the footwork to get a job. He wouldn't like doing it, because he's the sort who doesn't like doing that sort of thing -- but he'll be better for it in the end. >"In Celestial Terms, a Lilim's contract is Enforced. You accept her >service, you pay it back. Or else." > >But you aren't entering into a contract with a Lilim are you. She >doesn't tell you at the time what she wants she just walks off with a >knowing grin! Yup. TANSTAAFL. But what she asks in return will be no more difficult than your need was. > She doesn't even tell you that you will have to return the >favour either! She doesn't have to because that's how the mechanics >work. Now a Bright might just tell you, but even she couldn't tell you >the whole truth because it would breach the 'Masquerade' (tm)! I don't >recall it saying anywhere that that's what BL's do anyway! > I am all for making it innate that Lilim need to have the person accept the bargain -- anecdotally, all examples I've seen of Lilim involve this. But if you're willing to accept that Brights (who are the argument) say "there will be a price one day, and you will have to pay it," in what way is this Selfishness. The fact that they made a deal with an Angel? If a Mercurian told me I would have to repay a debt one day, and then I welshed, and that Mercurian went Celestial before me and intoned that the Wrath of God will fall upon me, I will *bloody* *well* *do* what he says. If the way a person realizes that they are dealing with Powers and Forces Beyond His Belief And Comprehension is when he tries to break a deal, break a rule... this isn't too unlike Angels in Beggerly clothes begging for hospitality in cities of Sin, and the one family who took them in being saved while the rest of the city is destroyed. Which is in the Bible. It's just a lot less collateral damage on Cities for the person to be forced to honor their word. >And anyway, maybe contracts are selfish! The jury's still out on that >one - at least for me! > I sign a contract every year that says my school will pay me. In return, I will work for them. Because of that contract, I can't just walk out and refuse to work and leave them high and dry. I have to give cause and ninety days notice first. Because of that contract, they can't up and fire me because the Headmaster's Nephew wants a job in IT. They have to give me cause and ninety days notice first. There is nothing evil or selfish about my contract -- it is fair and equtable, and I agreed to it and so did they. If they decided not to pay me "because they didn't feel like it," it would be selfish of them. >"If she tricks you into it... no one said life was fair." > >Apart from the angels, who would like life to be fair. Fair means gfood! > Life isn't fair to the Angels. Life is *Selfless.* There is *such* a difference. Robert Heinlein once said the most dangerous of politicians was the reformer, because he wasn't there to be equitable, he was there to Clean Things Up. Innately Selfless -- he probably wouldn't be reelected after his time in office -- but sure as heck unfair to the people he's wiping out, especially if those people weren't hurting anyone. >And if she tricks you she is certainly not being 'Bright!' > Do the Wind's Servitors have to be *honest* twenty-four/seven? Does Michael have to fax Baal ahead with his battle plan? Does a Mercurian have to wait until the addict goes to AA of his own accord instead of setting up an intervention? Does Judgement never trick those they interrogate into revealing more than they intended? The simple truth of In Nomine is "Angels can be total Bastards so long as they're Selfless about it." >"And if in the end Humanity is that micron closer to Destiny and not >Fate, it's selfless on her part" > >I never said Lilim couldn't be selflessÖit's just their resonance! It is >inherently selfish! To invoke it means you need a selfish mindset. You >would have to be Kobal-tastically jaded to think it otherwise! > Nope. You have to accept that compulsion isn't the same as selfishness. Since you don't accept Real World examples as being proof, out of the odd justification that they're 'man-made,' let's use Divine Examples. Marc. The Divine Contract. Far far worse than anything a Bright can do without actually having that attunement herself. Dominic. The Archangel of Judgement, who sets compulsions on others to follow rules or be judged and if found wanting be cast out or torn apart. Gabrial. Punishes traitors. Often by burning them alive. She isn't compulsion per se, but she's a *dang* good reason not to be cruel, not to stab someone in the back, not to break your word to someone. If Lilim invoke Gease to force people to do acts which bring the world closer to Destiny than Fate, it is Selfless. If a Bright forced a Nazi Death Camp administrator to release his prisoners and defend their route out of the country, it would not and could not be seen as a Selfish act on that Lilim's part. If a Lilim uses her geas -- payment to *her* -- to force a drug user into rehab, she's getting *nothing* out of the deal. Asserting compulsion is selfishness doesn't make it so. >"It's not the gun that's evil, it's the target the bullet hits that >makes it good or evil." > >No, it's the mindset of the gunman. A gun is a tool. One human could >shoot a demon; is that a good act? What about if that human was a >lifelong pacifist, an ordinary human who abhors violence. To her mind >she don't know what demons are, therefore she has just murdered someone! >That has to count for something! Maybe an angel could forgive her, butÖ > *Utterly* my point. The Gun isn't evil, the intent is. Resonance isn't evil, intent is. And intent doesn't have to be evil. >"Nope. Not a bit. It's only harmful if the other party welshes. If >Brights *can't* enforce the agreement, it's one-sided against them and >no Lilim would redeem no matter *why.*" > >Well that and the fact that you are consorting with evil! Of course it's >harmful. A Bright who 'enforces' the agreement is risking falling in my >book. She cannot user her Geas power as it stands. We need something >else for these characters. There. Is. No. Evil. Here. A Bright who enforces the agreement is acting out of what she thinks is Selfless. > >In fact why would a Lilim redeem; what could break that mindset? > >"If we were two kids in the playground, and you offered me a go on your >spacehopper in return for my milky way bar, and I gave you my milky way >bar and you ate it and then you told me to get lost, because it's *your* >spacehopper and you changed your ind, I have a right to justice." > >If I did that, sure I'd be a pretty mean SOB. But if you are filled with >thoughts of vengeance are you not flirting with your Ftae? Nope. I'm out a candy bar without a ride. I have no way to get that candy bar back. I can either let you bully me or refuse to let you bully me. And if that means resorting to violence, it means that. > (especially >if beating the snotkins out of your classmate is the first step toward a >life of violence and crime as opposed to a destiny of peace and >inspiration). I digress! > You do. For the record, I was in a fight or three in school. I won a couple, I lost a couple. Oddly, I'm not a violent criminal today. But I also know when to stand up for my rights. And a Bright Lilim has rights. And a way to ensure them. >Who says you have a right? Dominic? Marc, actually. It's a trade. You broke the deal. > (cant imagine him hanging around >school playgrounds!) the point is that you, as a lilim are saying that >you will give me that milky way soley to get your grubby mitts on my >spacehopper (I wonder who on this list would also like a go?). You must get into a lot of trouble at restaurants. "Wait -- you gave me that food soley to get your grubby mitts on my money?" Two items of like value are traded. > that's >mean because you are using our friendship to get to my big bouncy orange >ball! I'm crying now! I hope you are happy! My best fwiend is a demon, >how would I know that. We made a deal. I'm no demon. I did what I said and I'd like to take a ride now, please. You promised. You're a selfish liar, and now you've eaten my candy bar. I'm going to tell Mr. Milliken. > The minute you inflict that geas you are back in >hell because you aren't being selfless; being selfless means you accept >that fact that I m might not live up to my end of the deal, but that's >ok because I'm a human and you love me for who I am. > *Snort.* Ridiculous. As ridiculous as claiming a Cherub is damned for killing a Soldier of Hell who's threatening his charge because they're human and he should love them for who they are. There's nothing evil about expecting a deal to be completed. There's nothing evil about having an ace in the hole to force complience. There is *only* evil in either forcing inequity (which the resonance doesn't allow) or in acting selfishly (which the kid with the spacehopper who lied to get a candy bar is). >"This is a *deal.* People who break deals are selfish. People who >force them to abide by the deal they made are not innately so." > >Yes they are, and no they are not; BUT Lilim are innately selfish >BECAUSE they're demons! Also, using that resonance is a selfish act >because it requires selfish thinking to use it. > Martin? Lilim aren't Demons. Dark Lilim work with Demons. Their creator is a "Demon" Princess. But they aren't Demons. They aren't Fallen Angels or made in the mold of Fallen Angels. They are Something Else. Free Lilim are Free -- they don't have to work for either side and often work for both. They're selfish, often, but they aren't Demons. Bright Lilim are Angelic by convention even as their Dark sisters are Demonic by convention. But they're no more Angels then Dark Lilim are Demons. This was stated In Canon by Beth. I believe Beth. Beth is Always Right By Definition. But I also agree with it. >"So... if a Cherub tells a mob boss to leave his charge alone or suffer, >and the Mob boss fires a gubÖand the Cherub uses the Song of Shields to >protectÖand then teaches that Mob Boss a lesson... that's wrong because >the Mob Boss had no idea the Cherub had special powers and couldn't know >he wouldn't be able to shoot the charge? > >You are not entering into a deal with Cheubim. All the Chrub is required >to do is look after his charge, anything else is personal satisfaction. >Maybe even pride! > So, as near as I can tell, Lilim can't use their resonance because it's selfish, and we know they're selfish because they're Lilim, who are selfish, and therefore their resonance is selfish. That's all I can figure out, because none of these arguments make sense. In dealing with Humanity, Angels don't tell Humanity they're Angels with all these Songs and Attunements. They try to guide Humanity without them. But when the Angels have their plans go wrong, they freely and cheerfully use their abilities even though humanity had no idea they had them. The difference here is, the Lilim offers a trade? If a Lilim offers me a candy bar for a ride on my spacehopper, it really doesn't matter *what* she is. I take the bar and let her ride on my spacehopper. Divinity doesn't enter into it. Especially if the Lilim sensed that I was sad, and wished I had a clark bar like my dad used to give me when I was down, but also sensed that I'm a stubborn scot who won't accept charity. If I refuse to follow through, she has a good reason to teach me a lesson, so I won't be so selfish the next time. And feeling a clutch at my heart as my very soul says Give Her A Ride You Selfish Wretch is a good way for me to realize "gosh, maybe that's a bit dodgy." >That mobster was not entering into an agreement with a Lilim. It's not a >accurate example. > It was an example of another Choir being restricted the same way you were claiming the Lilim needed to be restricted, to point out that the argument didn't hold water. >"I'm sorry, but I don't have any compassion for someone who agrees to do >something and then breaks his word, especially if the task is for the >greater good. Let him be forced or let him be damaged -- it's not the >*Bright* who's being selfish." > >Ah, but I believe an angel would, or should. If angels cant feel >compassion then they are on the slippery slope! It's this cold >indifference that makes Hell's victories all the more common. Look at >the world! Selflessness isn't Compassion. Ask David. Ask Laurence. Ask Michael. Ask Dominic. A Seraph who overheard the two kids on the playground would walk up to the one who was refusing to follow through on the deal, hoist him straight up into the sky, turn to the boy who gave the candy bar, tell him to take his ride, and walk away with the boy, castigating him for being a little liar. Only Mercurians are compassionate by their nature. > >I don't think people should break their word, but if you and I enter >into a deal (one in which I would naturally assume you are at least >human!) and you do so, I must accept that and forgive you for it. That >is the grace of heaven. > Christianity != Goodness, especially in In Nomine. And whether I'm human or not, if I break my word to you in a deal, I'm on the slippery slope. If you force me to honor my word, you're acting within your rights. >Ramesh: "This is In Nomine. The Angels might be wrong about what's best >for you or for others, but that's their motivation and what they're >working towards. Selflessness and Destiny. I don't get this argument at >all." > >It's not an argument. I saying that if Bright's are motivated to help >people through fulfilling their needs, what means do they have to know >how to best go about that. Asking other people defeats the point of it. > *All* those on Heaven's side are using *all* their abilities to promote Destiny over Fate, Selflessness over Selfishness. And most of them have a brain in their head, and most of the time they can tell the difference between selfish and selfless behavior. Or are you saying only Servitors of Yves can do *anything* with humanity because they're the only ones who can tell? >"I don't think Demons can be considered evil solely because they are >demons, I think you should judge them by the same methods you would any >other person. (But of course usually they would be judged as evil)" > >You cannot my friend, for God hath judged them and God's word is >absolute. Demons are evil, they are selfish and evil, because evil is >selfish. Evil serves only itself, like the firstborn of the damned, the >Morningstar. > Who is God? Are you God? Are you God in my In Nomine Campaign? >This is what makes IN fun as well! > Not in my game. The idea that some of these Demons have a point makes it fun for my game, because it raises the question of what is good. >"I agree that Darks act like that, but Brights act radically different. >Initially they tend to be sickeningly *nice*," > >If they do they need different resonance rules. > Not in Canon and not in my game. In my game their Resonance works just fine. The same in Canon. >"So what if the legal institutions are man made? What difference does >it make?" > >a Geas is made of celestial stuff. One could say that they were created >by God as aprt of the symphony. God made man, but mand made lawsuits and >contracts! > > >Maybe bit what's the Lilim's motivation in sharing. Something selfish. >And insecure as well, therefore something devoid of trust and love, >divine qualities. > Or maybe it's the desire for both of you to have cheese sandwiches. >"Again, Brights and Darks are different." > >Not in their resonance! > That's right. Because they don't need to be different in their resonance. They need to be different in their hearts. I'm going to e-mail on this after this, as it's clearly going to degenerate from here. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:17:49 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK >>From: Kevin Walsh >> >>That, to me, is an example of Dark Humour at its purest. The destruction >>of lives in nonsensically cruel ways, and the creation of despair thereby. > >I'm glad I'm not the only one who found the history of the Soviet Union >to be a great inspiration for portraying Kobal. The sheer *blindness* of >the system's malice is at once terrifying and hilarious, which suits a >demon prince quite well. > >There's a line in Blake's _The Marriage of Heaven and Hell_ which captures >the essence of Kobal's word perfectly: "Excess of sorrow laughs. Excess of >joy weeps." > Whoooooo... a good line, and a good point. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:19:56 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Lilim again (longish) >> >> On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Martin Arnold wrote: >> >> [Lilim resonance is/isn't evil] > >Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >> I have an opinion but instead of airing it can I put in a vote for "we've >> beaten this subject to death?" > >I agree with Ms. Bartley. It looks like folks have become entrenched in >their positions on this questions. Time to move on. > "I affirm your life choice." Everyone's heard my position at great length, and I'll continue to discuss it in e-mail henceforth, I promise. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:31:42 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Kobal and the Golden Gophers... > >Who, speaking of the other ongoing thread, thinks Kobal has outdone himself > >getting officials of his beloved Gophers to pretty much shoot themselves in > >the head. Everyone else is laughing and I'm angry and depressed. Yep, > >sounds like his handiwork. > > Of course, being from Washington (the State) I like Gonzaga, just a bit.... > But if the same thing happens to the Stanford team, I'm going to call the > forces of ... Wait a second, Gonzaga is a Catholic school. The members of the > Golden Gophers did something dishonest and are being punished. And I think is > saw a guy near Key Arena yesterday in a long, hooded cloak... Here was my entire comment on it: "God dammit. I had Minnesota losing in the 2nd round." But hey, Michigan, weenie boy team they are this year (and last year and the year before...) didn't even make it into the big dance. On topic: the Game currently has my soul. And so does Nybbas, who has been hitting the refresh button on my browser every 2 minutes to get scores. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:59:25 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Kobal and the Golden Gophers... Emily Dresner wrote: > On topic: the Game currently has my soul. And so does Nybbas, who has > been hitting the refresh button on my browser every 2 minutes to get > scores. I just can't get into it this year, beyond the fact that I'm really a hockey guy. I just keep seeing Servitors of the Game popping up everywhere. (NCAA investigators, after all, work for Asmodeus.) J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:35:17 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia Stacy Stroud wrote: >>>>>Johnny a Soldier of God? I think not. >> >>He was a prideful little snot who risked his soul for a stupid golden >>fiddle.<<< >> >>Nothing prevents Soldiers from being prideful. (They'd just better not >>overreach themselves, and they'd better stay on the right side of Heaven.) >> > >Well, all right, he *could* have been a Soldier, certainly. > >But nothing in his actions or motivations suggests that he necessarily >*was*, merely because he competed against the Devil. The person I was >responding to simply assumed he was a Soldier of God without (IMHO) much >justification. > >Notice the nature of the bargain: If Johnny loses, he loses his very soul >to Hell. If he wins, he gets . . . a golden fiddle. If he *were* a >Soldier of God, he'd be risking one of Heaven's assets (himself) for no >appreciable gain to the forces of Selflessness and Destiny. He would, at >the very least, be a Soldier due for a talking-to. What if the Golden Fiddle isn't just a Fiddle made of Gold, but some funky Relic important to the War? Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:01:53 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia - -----Original Message----- From: EDG To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 12 March 1999 19:12 Subject: Re: IN> The Devil Went Down to Georgia >Stacy Stroud wrote: > >> Notice the nature of the bargain: If Johnny loses, he loses his very soul >> to Hell. If he wins, he gets . . . a golden fiddle. If he *were* a >> Soldier of God, he'd be risking one of Heaven's assets (himself) for no >> appreciable gain to the forces of Selflessness and Destiny. He would, at >> the very least, be a Soldier due for a talking-to. > >I dunno... a relic? All I have to say Is great minds think a like! Or fools rarely differ :-) (I honestly though of the relic indepently of you - but did bother thinking what it was) >Comments? Don't really have time to read this properly now, Later. Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1150 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.