From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 16 10:38:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA30753 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:38:58 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA12360 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:02:50 -0600 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:02:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199903161602.KAA12360@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1156 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1156 In this digest: Re: IN> Fluff!!! IN> In Nomine: The Musical Re: IN> Lilith a Human? IN> Word-Bound Attitudes Re: IN> Moral Compulsion Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Lilith a Human? IN> Stuff Re: IN> Stuff Re: IN> Seraph and Truth Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Seraph and Truth (Fluffy) Re: IN> Seraph and Truth Re: IN> Lilith a Human? [none] IN> (no subject) Re: IN> Seraph and Truth (Fluffy) Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Seraph and Truth (Fluffy) Re: IN> Seraph and Truth Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Re: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Corporeal forces Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Lilith a Human? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:32:41 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Fluff!!! At 12:15 AM -0500 3/16/99, EDG wrote: >Definitely fluff... and I think "IN: the Movie" has been done before; >I'm pretty sure it's referred to in the info file that comes with the >list. :) > >"(As a note: If you want to know about Roles, check the digests. That's > been asked a lot, but I don't think it's in the FAQ yet. Also, we've > already been through "What is good In Nomine Music" and "In Nomine > Movie Casting." At least 3 times. Check the digests, don't start it > *again*....)" > >Yep. Sorry, Brian. :) > Right. In Nomine, the Musical. I say Rodgers and Hammerstein, with a peppy eleven o'clock number. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:58:46 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> In Nomine: The Musical At 12:32 AM -0500 3/16/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Right. In Nomine, the Musical. I say Rodgers and Hammerstein, with a >peppy eleven o'clock number. Actually, try http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/fiction/Musical.html for a Musical In Nomine... And no, no casting calls for it. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:39:19 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? - -----Original Message----- From: Stacy Stroud >Even in the IN >cosmology, she and Adam were unique: specially created rather than evolved. Hey, how about IN: Hitchhikers? Adam and Lilith were part of Deep Thought's great experimet. All the other mortals were just window dressing... >Who's to say they weren't green? And since IN borrowed Adam and Eve from >Genesis, it's not completely unreasonable to assume that they were immortal >before the Fall -- in which case, Lilith would have been, too. I don't think you can intermngle bible/IN quite this easily though. In IN, there were plenty of humans around before the Fall. So you could say 'Ah, but Lilith was different even to those!' in which case she is still not human in any way that we would really understand. What would have been the point of the experiment if the humans put in the garden hadn't been just like those outside? It wouldn't really have proved a thing. What might be more interesting is an alternate scope in which Lilith might have been the first Grigori, and the garden was God's plan to introduce some _planned_ celestial genes into the human stock -- before it all went a bit pear-shaped. Now, the actual reason I am so against Lilith being human is just because it strains canon so very badly. You get to the stage where almost every book says 'Humans can't do/be X .. except for Lilith' with no reasons and no real explanations. (Humans can't be immortal, humans can't have words, humans can't have more than X forces etc etc etc). It'd be so much smoother to just either say 'Lilith was never precisely human but she isn't a normal demon either' or 'Lilith was once human but the price she paid for freedom was the loss of her human soul'. The part about humans not getting words is especially knotty -- because I still don't see why not. If Lucifer could do it once, he could do it again. There are also plenty of humans out there who weren't descended from Adam and so never came anywhere near the tre of knowledge (unless you are assuming in canon that the Flood wiped them all out, which seems difficult to support unless you are playing a very mythic game). jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:17:32 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Word-Bound Attitudes >>>I thought many Word bounds *were* ambiguous - the domain of many Words are vague and metaphorical and the Demon of Spam shows that the domain of Words can change and if Words are not vague but fixed how could this be possible?<<< That's not what I said. I said *how* a Word-bound celestial interprets and promotes his Word is very much slanted towards his own orientation. Angels promote the "good" aspects, demons promote the "bad" aspects. (They may promote _all_ aspects to a degree, as long as it strengthens them and doesn't serve the other side.) >>>Erm, in canon are angels Good and Demons Bad?<<< No, that's not what I said. >>>If not then the how is the Angel of X, is the angel of Good X?<<< The Angel of X promotes X in a manner that serves Heaven. The Demon of X promotes X in a manner that serves Hell. It's not as simple as "Good X" and "Bad X," but there _is_ a difference in how they perceive and promote X. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:36:18 EST From: Horsefly7@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Moral Compulsion on 3/15/99, emccoy@nh.ultranet.com wrote: >At 3:26 PM +0000 3/15/99, Kevin Walsh wrote: >>If compulsion can be moral, then the question is >>when compulsion is moral. >As a note, the book _Lilith_, by George MacDonald, has some themes >precisely along these lines. It's also on the web, at >http://ccel.wheaton.edu/macdonald/lilith/Lilith.html . help, the website quoted won't load from AOL. -=|horsefly|=- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:11:59 +0300 From: "Tick Tock" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? I apologise if I'm intruding on a thread but this subject has been bothering me quite a bit. I also have problems regarding IN treatment of humans while using a different standard for Lilith. - -----Original Message----- From: Jo Hart >Now, the actual reason I am so against Lilith being human is just because it >strains canon so very badly. You get to the stage where almost every book >says 'Humans can't do/be X .. except for Lilith' with no reasons and no real >explanations. (Humans can't be immortal, humans can't have words, humans >can't have more than X forces etc etc etc). It'd be so much smoother to just >either say 'Lilith was never precisely human but she isn't a normal demon >either' or 'Lilith was once human but the price she paid for freedom was the >loss of her human soul'. There's actually some mythological leaning towards humans being immortal. IN re-inforces this, by implication, when it describes the nature of the Eden experiment. In creating the 'perfect humans' God may well have removed death from the equation. His reason for doing so would stem from the fact that sometimes humans do things because, as their bodies weaken and die, they are looking for deeper meaning in life, looking to the Almighty for guidance when experience will take them no farther, etc.. At the very least we know humans were once much longer lived than humans of the later ages. >The part about humans not getting words is especially knotty -- because I >still don't see why not. If Lucifer could do it once, he could do it again. >There are also plenty of humans out there who weren't descended from Adam >and so never came anywhere near the tree of knowledge (unless you are >assuming in canon that the Flood wiped them all out, which seems difficult >to support unless you are playing a very mythic game). What if the stories about Lilith and Lucifer are lies? I mean, what if Lucifer tried to do all that he promised and failed (because humans cannot have words or have more than X forces). So instead he made very superficial changes to her physical attributes (skin and horns), explained that being a DP is more than simple power and left her to her own devices. Hmmm, let me re-state that last. Lucifer, to learn the limits of his power in regards to humans after he fails to gift Lilith with a word, begins to teach Lilith the ways of magic (songs) and enlightenment (seeing the universe as patterns of forces to be manipulated), shows her how to travel to hell then leaves her to her own devices. In the years which follow, Lilith finds and specialized in that bit of magic called Gease and becomes proficient at force manipulation. We are talking about millennium after millennium at a time when DP's were (supposedly) more cooperative. She is now an immortal human, enlightened as to the nature of the universe, supported by Lucifer, that seeks no dominion on earth or in hell. This last makes her a low priority target while the rest makes her a one-trick sorceress in a world of demons that survives only by cunning and being more manipulative than those master manipulators that surround her. She cajoles, teases, flirts, and manipulates those around her while spreading the philosophy of TANSTAAFL. The Lilim demons are her offspring composed of 6 forces from wherever she can get them (mortal forces received in trade with other DP's one would assume) and at least one force from Lilith herself. She teaches her little daughters (should that be clones?) the rather vulgar geas magic along with the much more subtle trick of seeing needs and then turns them out to survive or fail on their own. Sorry to intrude, I just found this to be an evocative thread. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:40:05 -0600 From: "Mason Kramer" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? - -----Original Message----- From: Jo Hart To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 12:45 AM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? >I don't think you can intermngle bible/IN quite this easily though. In IN, >there were plenty of humans around before the Fall. So you could say 'Ah, >but Lilith was different even to those!' in which case she is still not >human in any way that we would really understand. > There were apparently other people around in the Bible, too. Otherwise, who the heck did Cain marry? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 03:48:16 PST From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Stuff Okay, I've been offline for a while (using a friends computer now) so I have no idea what's going on, but I have a number of ponderings for you. 1. Isn't in interesting that the aztec deities were cast out of "the higher heavens" for tasting the fruit of life? 2. doesn't the existence of Yves point towards a plan on the part of the divine? 3. What if lucifer is working for the divine? 4. isn't it interesting how many comic books are depicting lucifer as a nice guy? "Is it paranoia if everyone is out to get you?" Enemy of the state (I think) Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:20:48 +0300 From: "Tick Tock" Subject: Re: IN> Stuff - -----Original Message----- From: Hydrax 59 >Okay, I've been offline for a while (using a friends computer now) so I >have no idea what's going on, but I have a number of ponderings for you. >1. Isn't in interesting that the aztec deities were cast out of "the >higher heavens" for tasting the fruit of life? An interesting point. However many ethereals could be seen as having the same fault. I believe it was their interaction the mortal world and the turning to ethereals that was seen as a turning away from God, which in turn led to the purification crusade. On the otherhand, most of the Aztec deities could have been outcasts who banded together for protection and getting a slice of the coporeal pie whithout shuffling off to hell and being co-opted into the war. If that were the case, their religion would have flourished (neither heaven nor hell being really organized to police the coporeal at that time) until their tastes got a little too bloody and one or the other side of the War put them out of business. >2. doesn't the existence of Yves point towards a plan on the part of the >divine? Agreed, but I feel compelled to point out that the existance of Kronos implies the same thing. >3. What if lucifer is working for the divine? One interpetation is that the plan is all therefore we are all part of the plan. In this interpetation the question is whether Lucifer is aware of his part in the plan, or if God merely factored in his actions and reactions when formulating the plan. Ever read the Neil Gaiman short story about the angel of judgement? >4. isn't it interesting how many comic books are depicting lucifer as a >nice guy? Nice? I would venture to say he's seen as "likable" in a roguish sort of way. Rather like Zelazney's Jack of Shadows. Likable, admirable, and capable of monstrous acts all the while talking about breaking a few eggs to make an omlet. Besides, if you're referring the DC subgroup miniseries, that Lucifer still hasn't met up with Constantine for a rematch. I'll based the judgement of nice guy on how Lucifer reacts at that time. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:25:19 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Seraph and Truth On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 4:18 AM +0000 3/16/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Elizabeth McCoy > >>Unless they *say* it's sarcasm before or immediately after, they > >>can't do it, and even then, they're going to be wincing to have the > >>vile, fetid taste of false words on their tongue. And they *certainly* > >>can't do it in text without enclosing it in tags. > > > >But it's obvious from the context. > > Not necessarily. It's false. It's words which don't mean what they > sound like. It's bad enough that humans use words that don't mean > what they sound like, but it's at a *MINIMUM* borderline-dissonant > for a Seraph to do it. The problem is that words that mean one thing to one person doesn't have to mean the same thing to another person. If the Seraph says "That futon is blue" and someone listening to him thinks he's talking about the painting on the wall that's obviously not blue, does he take dissonance? What if the Seraph actually thinks "futon" means "painting", because someone's tricked him? There is a fundamental rift between language and Truth, in that Truth is absolute and equal for all, but language isn't. > Besides, you did it in text, and didn't include sarcasm-tags, > and it wasn't immediately obvious. Take the dissonance like > a snake! I hope you don't mean that sarcams and irony wasn't possible to use before the event of SGML-tags? :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:04:00 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? At 6:39 +0000 3/16/99, Jo Hart wrote: >What would have been the point of the experiment if the humans put in the >garden hadn't been just like those outside? It wouldn't really have proved a >thing. When you come right down to it, there are a *lot* of things wrong with the Eden "experiment", from an experimental protocol point of view. Though I suppose that's OK -- the scientific method hadn't yet been invented (by humans, anyway).... >The part about humans not getting words is especially knotty -- because I >still don't see why not. If Lucifer could do it once, he could do it again. In my game, Lucifer *didn't* give her her Word. She *started* with it. People (including Lilith, and maybe Lucifer) only *think* he gave it to her. Actually, she was created with it, and the whole Eden experiment was a sham for some deep, long-term plot of God's, related to Lilith. (See the "Third Avatar" plot in the IN archives.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:10:05 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? >What if the stories about Lilith and Lucifer are lies? I mean, what if Lucifer >tried to do all that he promised and failed (because humans cannot have words or >have more than X forces). So instead he made very superficial changes to her >physical attributes (skin and horns), She doesn't have horns, or green skin in canon -- though people seem to presume she looks like her Daughters. > explained that being a DP is more than >simple power and left her to her own devices. Hmmm, let me re-state that last. >Lucifer, to learn the limits of his power in regards to humans after he fails to >gift Lilith with a word, begins to teach Lilith the ways of magic (songs) and >enlightenment (seeing the universe as patterns of forces to be manipulated), >shows her how to travel to hell then leaves her to her own devices. Cute notion. Another possibility is that he did manage to give her a Word, but something about the process worried him -- e.g., he discovered something *really dangerous* about giving Words to humans. And for some reason, he didn't immediately destroy her. The Seraphim Council, conservative body that it is, has never tried. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:08:28 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Seraph and Truth (Fluffy) On Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 12:22:34AM -0500, EDG wrote: > > I suppose sarcasm is the lowest form of Truth :-) > > No - sarcasm is untruth. The implications of sarcasm are truth, and not > everyone grasps implications. > It depends on how you use sarcasm. It's quite easy for Seraphim to use sarcasm if phrased in the form of a question. (And the truth can be told in a sarcastic tone of voice in order to imply falsehood.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I have said that the Elohim are perilous. I have not said that they desire hurt to any life, or to the Earth. But in their own tales they are portrayed as the bastion of the last truth, and that truth they preserve in ways which baffle all that behold them." The One Tree, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:23:41 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Seraph and Truth >-EDG > Oo. Can a Balseraph of Kronos fool Archangels with their Attunement? >How about the Seraphim Council? (I'm thinking of a Liar of Fate with >an Angelic Word.. would an Angelic Word bind properly to a demon? How >'bout a Bright?) This was either covered in the FAQ, or here on the list: Essentially the cannonical answer is '-hell no-!'. *evil grin* First of all, the Balseraph does -not- Celestially look like the Angel in question. IMC I'd tinge the Bal with a hint of the Angel they are duplicating (which is why my Bal picture was so bloody dark, and why I wanna try my hand at a Bal-Ofanite next. *grin*) Second of all, a Superior has to physically handle the forces of said Balseraph, and would most certainly notice that they are not who they really claim to be. Third, they have to deal with the light of heaven. Needless to say, it'd be difficult at best. "I don't lie. I just tell the Truth as it is." Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Granduer * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:28:13 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? On Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 06:39:19AM +0000, Jo Hart wrote: > What would have been the point of the experiment if the humans put in the > garden hadn't been just like those outside? It wouldn't really have proved a > thing. > Well, that's if you assume that the real purpose of the experiment wasn't to discover whether Celestials would disobey God's orders in order to interfere with humans. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I have said that the Elohim are perilous. I have not said that they desire hurt to any life, or to the Earth. But in their own tales they are portrayed as the bastion of the last truth, and that truth they preserve in ways which baffle all that behold them." The One Tree, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:27:03 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: [none] In a surprise announcement today, the 17 co-governers of Stygia announced a mass resignation, following the publication of a report from the Hades Secretariat which condemned the body as a group for its integrity, adherence to unhellish principles and unwillingness to pay protection money to the report writers. The Ranking Governer-General of the notorious Mandragora Directorate, Cresoniel, spoke through her private secretary, Cosimo de Medici to declare that initial reactions to the mass resignation had been wildly overhysterical and to express the hope that rioters should return quietly to their slavepits and compounds and await further developments. She denied flatly all allegations of a bias against Nepotism, saying "It is a long-standing and august tradition in all infernal organisations and as such, I support it fully -- but I accept a shared responsibility with my co-governors for the commission's findings. I have every intention of putting my name forwards again to represent my directorate, but in the meantime my loyal secretary will act as proxy." In similar press statements from all 16 other directorates, governors announced through damned spokesmen, that their resignations were likely to be purely temporary, but in the meantime their personal assistants would be handling affairs. In the wake of the resignations, it seems that Stygia is being run by the damned, which is already having the effect of inciting damned souls in other principalities to stir aggressively in pursuit of power. Cosimo responded to allegations of a damned-organised coup with laughter and admitted modestly that neither he nor his damned colleagues would dare to rate their minimal political skills against those of demonkind. He added that the Prince of Factions had personally endorsed their current body of proxy governers and hoped piously that the interregnum would not last long. Headlines at 10^D^D9. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:36:36 EST From: Endlsskid@aol.com Subject: IN> (no subject) Hello its me ....endlsskid....well soon I will be temporarlily removed from the cyberworld. Finding my independence...well that's a tale for another time. So im switching to digest. My visits fewer and farther between....but before I go ....let me begin with ... Dark Victory.....excellent piece of work! Two thunbs..err...wings up. Inspired by a friend of mine , I bring forth Mattias, Angel of Redemption. Formerly in service to Dominic. This Malakite has Cherub, Elohite, Mercurian and Seraph choir attunmnets. Each awarded by both the now fallen Dominic and the deceased Laurence. Wondering the heavens searching for Dominic as the apocalypse came to an end, he stumbles upon the field of battle to find a deceased Michael and a lifeless Laurence nearby. He weeps for his fallen superior...his heroes. He sings a song of mourning for all his slayed brethren. He stands over the archangel of the Sword. And in his hand , lay his mighty sword , an artifact of great power. And as he grasps Laurence's hand and sword to put them in honor over his chest....the sword is placed in Mattias' hands by the dead Laurence. Mattias takes up the sword and restarts his search for his Superior. Eventually word gets to him that Dominic has become a demon prince. Mattias has no chose he must descend to hell and do his job. He must help to redemn Dom. Alrite thats all fro now im tired and well I' ll finsih this tale later. But I hope you enjoy the sample. More to come. endlsskid ??? of ????? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:56:57 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Seraph and Truth (Fluffy) Kevin Walsh wrote: > It depends on how you use sarcasm. It's quite easy for Seraphim to use > sarcasm if phrased in the form of a question. (And the truth can be told > in a sarcastic tone of voice in order to imply falsehood.) 1) Yes. I think Beth covered that (apologies if I've just misattributed); but it's using sarcasm without speaking untruth, and the question is "Can a Seraph speak untruth if he says it sarcastically?" (The "Oh. *Indeed*." example is of the same ilk. 2) Why would a Seraph want to imply falsehood? I'd rule that a Seraph speaking truth so as to indicate that he's speaking untruth would take dissonance. It's too close to what Balseraphs do. > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:47:01 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? >>What if the stories about Lilith and Lucifer are lies? I mean, what if >>Lucifer >>tried to do all that he promised and failed (because humans cannot have >>words or >>have more than X forces). So instead he made very superficial changes to her >>physical attributes (skin and horns), > >She doesn't have horns, or green skin in canon -- though people seem to >presume she looks like her Daughters. > I think it's safe to say Lilith looks however she wishes. >> explained that being a DP is more than >>simple power and left her to her own devices. Hmmm, let me re-state that >>last. >>Lucifer, to learn the limits of his power in regards to humans after he >>fails to >>gift Lilith with a word, begins to teach Lilith the ways of magic (songs) and >>enlightenment (seeing the universe as patterns of forces to be manipulated), >>shows her how to travel to hell then leaves her to her own devices. > >Cute notion. > And not inconsistent with what Lucifer was claiming to people at that stage of the Rebellion. After all, we don't *know* Lucifer was championing selfishness at the time. Of course, ultimately.... > >Another possibility is that he did manage to give her a Word, but something >about the process worried him -- e.g., he discovered something *really >dangerous* about giving Words to humans. And for some reason, he didn't >immediately destroy her. > There's something we haven't pointed out. Let's Assume Lilith *is* human. And has never actually died, never became a Saint/Infernal Saint, never reincarnated. She has a Word -- the Word of Freedom. But she also has *free* *will.* She's *still* one of the people the War's being fought about. Lilith doesn't need to Redeem to enter the side of the angels -- she just needs to act selflessly. If something actually manages to destroy her Corporeal form (or perhaps her forces) she is still slated for Reincarnation unless she's achieved her Destiny, her Fate, or both. That could be the "something extra" she can give the Lilim that no other Prince and no Archangel can replicate -- that tiny drop of Humanity may carry through to her children. And maybe her very wild card nature is what Lucifer doesn't care for. She's as powerful (in theory) as the rest of his Princes, but in the end he can't control her -- he can only manipulate her and hope. Which, to backtrack the debate to another debate, could be why where the Demons emphasize the demonic sides of a Word, and the Angels the selfless side of a Word, Lilith holds both sides -- the whole Enchilada of Freedom. Because anything that increases Freedom, from Might-Makes-Right Anarchy to the Constitution, increases her power as well. Which implies that she's really playing both sides against the middle. Maybe she wants more Brights in Heaven. Maybe she wants to become a true middle power, beholden to neither. Right now, she's thrown in with Hell because Heavenly Society is the antithesis of Freedom -- but that's changing, somewhat. Which is why Judgement is so busy, naturally. And of course the Game is increasing in power, and Lilith is therefore moving more and more of her resources out of Hell as well.... To broaden it to something we're doing in our home game... we have a 'third party' of Outcasts and Renegades which is growing, at much concern to the two sides, centering on an Outcast Archangel and a Renegade Demon Princess who Think They Have A Better Way. (Rebellion 2.0, if you will). Maybe underneath it all, Lilith is doing something similar, and the two Powers are only beginning to suspect it.... >The Seraphim Council, conservative body that it is, has never tried. > And would consider the possibility Heresy. Hmmmmm... which brings up an Adventure Seed if you think about it.... We've established (I think) that nothing really *prevents* a Saint from getting a Word.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:50:54 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? >At 6:39 +0000 3/16/99, Jo Hart wrote: >>What would have been the point of the experiment if the humans put in the >>garden hadn't been just like those outside? It wouldn't really have proved a >>thing. > >When you come right down to it, there are a *lot* of things wrong with the >Eden "experiment", from an experimental protocol point of view. Though I >suppose that's OK -- the scientific method hadn't yet been invented (by >humans, anyway).... > >>The part about humans not getting words is especially knotty -- because I >>still don't see why not. If Lucifer could do it once, he could do it again. > >In my game, Lucifer *didn't* give her her Word. She *started* with it. >People (including Lilith, and maybe Lucifer) only *think* he gave it to >her. Actually, she was created with it, and the whole Eden experiment was >a sham for some deep, long-term plot of God's, related to Lilith. (See the >"Third Avatar" plot in the IN archives.) > > That God... he's *wacky!* But come on. This is just paranoid. Setting up a doomed experiment entirely so he could give a Third Party a Word *previous* to the Fall and the Rebellion. Why, the very idea is ridiculous. It implies that Baal was actually working on *God's* authority when he interfered with the Experiment, and that long conversation of Lucifer and God is when Lucifer was brainwashed into rebelling and leading others to fall with him so that.... Man, the X-Files has *nothing* on this.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:52:44 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Seraph and Truth (Fluffy) >On Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 12:22:34AM -0500, EDG wrote: >> > I suppose sarcasm is the lowest form of Truth :-) >> >> No - sarcasm is untruth. The implications of sarcasm are truth, and not >> everyone grasps implications. >> >It depends on how you use sarcasm. It's quite easy for Seraphim to use >sarcasm if phrased in the form of a question. (And the truth can be told >in a sarcastic tone of voice in order to imply falsehood.) > Oh, expressing sarcastic questions has to be all right, since a Question, semantically, is not an expression of Truth but a request for knowledge and an opinion.... And the one form of out and out lying that Seraphim *can* use is the expression of truth in such a way that no one believes them. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:15:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Seraph and Truth Shadowstar wrote: > First of all, the Balseraph does -not- Celestially look like the Angel > in question. IMC I'd tinge the Bal with a hint of the Angel they are > duplicating (which is why my Bal picture was so bloody dark, and why I > wanna try my hand at a Bal-Ofanite next. *grin*) A flaming snake with its tail in its mouth? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:17:38 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > According to the midrash, anyway, pre-Fall humans were a thousand feet > tall, armor plated, and glowed in the dark. So Lilith, the primal femme fatale, is a Godzilla-sized day-glo armadillo? Oh, *that's* seductive! Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:15:53 -0800 (PST) From: Wade Trupke Subject: Re: IN> Re: - ---Emily Dresner wrote: ************************************************** > > Okay, I know the argument here against this is "The Drug Addict". So > here's the junky in a nutshell: > *counter-example snipped* As the person who brought up the drug addict as an example of a BL using a Geas for good purposes, I will freely admit that it was not a very good example. (Actually, I already said that in a previous post, but I'm guessing it hasn't gotten to everyone yet. Why do email lists always do that?) But I do think there are other examples where the BL, acting wisely and carefully, could use a Geas quite effectively. Geas the inventor to burn all copies of the blueprints that nice fellow (read: Impudite of Vapula) gave him. Geas someone into sitting through a movie they don't want to see, but will lead them toward their Destiny. (I imagine Yves as being able to make the best use of BLs.) A BL certainly would not be dropping Gease left and right like her Dark or Free sisters are apt to do. I'd imagine them using Gease exceedingly sparingly, only when they knew exactly what they were doing, perhaps only at the guidance of their Superiors in extreme cases of cautiousness. I can also definitely see them trying to convince/Fast Talk the person into cooperating, before resorting to a Geas. Although, with Fast Talk, there's no guarantee the person will keep their word, or not change their mind. Of course, YMMV. Wade (hoping this one will get through in a timely fashion) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:22:50 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Mason Kramer wrote: > There were apparently other people around in the Bible, too. > Otherwise, who the heck did Cain marry? The standard answer is his sister. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:49:59 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal forces Whistling in the Dark wrote: "...without Ethereal Forces, the being has no true creativity. No true thought. [...] Rather like most Cocker Spaniels." Love it. "However, on the Ethereal or Celestial Realms, beings without Corporeal Forces would seem Ephemeral, and flighty, and... for lack of a better word... artificial. Unreal. Like a sock puppet of an angel instead of the Angel himself. " I'll accept that as a good canon patch. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:56:21 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? On Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 09:47:01AM -0500, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > And not inconsistent with what Lucifer was claiming to people at that stage > of the Rebellion. After all, we don't *know* Lucifer was championing > selfishness at the time. Of course, ultimately.... IIRC, he was promoting the idea that angels should have dominion over humans. > Let's Assume Lilith *is* human. And has never actually died, never became > a Saint/Infernal Saint, never reincarnated. > > She has a Word -- the Word of Freedom. But she also has *free* *will.* > She's *still* one of the people the War's being fought about. Lilith > doesn't need to Redeem to enter the side of the angels -- she just needs to > act selflessly. Hold on ein moment. What makes you think Celestials don't have free will? Or that they have less free will than humans? In what way is the effect of being bound to a word less than our genetic inheritance? And as for the specific case, Lilith is bound to a demonic Word. This doesn't prevent her from acting unselfishly, but that's no more than to say that any random demon can also act unselfishly. It isn't Redemption, because the soul is still shaped to a Hellish pattern. If something actually manages to destroy her Corporeal > form (or perhaps her forces) she is still slated for Reincarnation unless > she's achieved her Destiny, her Fate, or both. > I don't think I agree. > Which implies that she's really playing both sides against the middle. > Maybe she wants more Brights in Heaven. Maybe she wants to become a true > middle power, beholden to neither. Maybe. Speculation is not necessarily truth. Right now, she's thrown in with Hell > because Heavenly Society is the antithesis of Freedom -- (Eli and Novalis and Janus being such tyrants.) but that's > changing, somewhat. Which is why Judgement is so busy, naturally. And of > course the Game is increasing in power, What makes you think the Game is increasing in power? Is it really more powerful than it was in 1937, or during the Great Leap Forward? > >The Seraphim Council, conservative body that it is, has never tried. > > And would consider the possibility Heresy. They might simply consider it impractical. After all, most Saints don't make a second return trip. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I have said that the Elohim are perilous. I have not said that they desire hurt to any life, or to the Earth. But in their own tales they are portrayed as the bastion of the last truth, and that truth they preserve in ways which baffle all that behold them." The One Tree, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:00:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? At 6:39 AM +0000 3/16/99, Jo Hart wrote: >Now, the actual reason I am so against Lilith being human is just because it >strains canon so very badly. You get to the stage where almost every book >says 'Humans can't do/be X .. except for Lilith' with no reasons and no real >explanations. (The one we favor, strictly non-canon, is that Lilith is actually an Avatar, like Yves and Kronos. They're the end-points of the Symphony, Fate or Destiny, and she's the Choice between. Fear if she ever joined Hell's cause utterly, in her own mind, instead of viewing them as what shields her from Heaven . . .) >The part about humans not getting words is especially knotty -- because I >still don't see why not. If Lucifer could do it once, he could do it again. Unless it's something to do with her being a created being. Perhaps he could give Adam or Eve a Word too . . . Or he could give any human a Word, but for some reason chooses not to. (Part of his original bargain with Lilith? Just doesn't see anyone who's that interesting? Doesn't need human Princes anymore to help forge the Tethers that led from Hell to the Marches, and later Earth? Knows that if he does it, Lilith won't give him any nookie anymore?) I suspect it's a matter of taste, really -- I like the questions. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1156 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.