From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 16 13:51:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA30721 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:51:34 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA30032 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:50:26 -0600 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:50:26 -0600 Message-Id: <199903161950.NAA30032@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1157 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1157 In this digest: Re: IN> Corporeal forces IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Re: IN> Lilith a Human? IN> Balseraphs of Fate (Was: Seraph and Truth) Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Corporeal forces Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Seraph and Truth Re: IN> Waiting to hear from you. Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Re: IN> Corporeal forces Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa IN> Survey: Defection Tendencies Re: IN> The deal that keeps on giving: Would this work? Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Re: IN> Lilith a Human? IN> Celestial disguise (was Seraph and Truth) Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Re: IN> Survey: Defection Tendencies Re: IN> Survey: Defection Tendencies Re: IN> Corporeal forces Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Re: IN> Set Up Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Re: IN> Celestial disguise (was Seraph and Truth) Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Survey: Defection Tendencies IN> shedim working overtime Re: IN> Shedim of Asmodeus ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:50:20 -0800 (PST) From: Wade Trupke Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal forces - ---Seth Buntain wrote: > In one of the books, one of Michaels servitors is punished by Dominic by > stripping all of her corporeal forces for x years, and they would be > returned so she could go hunt down the half-demon kid that she had with a > shedite. So that strongly implies that you only need corp forces if you go > to earth. > > Angelic player guide maybe? > Heaven & Hell, I believe. It was immediately followed by the trial with the involved demon (who got a much harsher sentence, if memory serves). Hmmm... If the being a Shedite (or Kyrio) is possessing gets pregnant, or gets someone else pregnant, does the child reflect the Celestial heritage, even though the bodies involved were purely Corporeal being (who just happened to be under the control of a Celestial being)? Wade (who really shouldn't be thinking about these things) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:06:28 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa > But I do think there are other examples where > the BL, acting wisely and carefully, could use a > Geas quite effectively. Geas the inventor to > burn all copies of the blueprints that nice > fellow (read: Impudite of Vapula) gave him. Geas > someone into sitting through a movie they don't > want to see, but will lead them toward their > Destiny. (I imagine Yves as being able to make > the best use of BLs.) Okay, then here's the test: Name exactly one really good application of a geas which cannot be accomplished through the use of any other angelic resonance, to justify its use or applications through the direction of an Archangel. Is burning blueprints the best solution to the problem of the "evil device"? Hardly. Is watching a movie a step in the right direction on their destiny? Maybe, but you don't need a Geas for that -- go read A CLOCKWORK ORANGE a few more times. I still hold that Geasa are a tool, and how they are used is the eyes of the beholder. _BUT_, their applications as a "good tool" are far more limited then the ability to read Needs. FWIW, drug addicts can be manipulated into believing they need treatment by the ruthless emotional manipulation of an Elohite, and this treatment is far more likely to stick. The addict thinks its a good idea and pursues it himself as a life change. This is a much better take on this particular problem then the Bright Lilim geas. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:07:39 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? > > > According to the midrash, anyway, pre-Fall humans were a thousand feet > > tall, armor plated, and glowed in the dark. > > So Lilith, the primal femme fatale, is a Godzilla-sized day-glo > armadillo? Oh, *that's* seductive! Yeah, and it ROCKS! I just have this image of Huge Lilith walking down the streets of Shal-Mari, battling the giant blobs from Outer Space which are invading the sancity of Hell! News at 11! - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:14:39 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Balseraphs of Fate (Was: Seraph and Truth) >A flaming snake with its tail in its mouth? Actually, something like that. Though it would be coiled around itself in several circles. An Ofanite is -several- flaming wheels after all. Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Granduer * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:19:34 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Emily Dresner wrote: > Okay, then here's the test: > > Name exactly one really good application of a geas which cannot be > accomplished through the use of any other angelic resonance, to justify > its use or applications through the direction of an Archangel. Name exactly one really good application of an angelic resonance which cannot be achieved through the use of any other angelic resonance. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:21:20 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > To broaden it to something we're doing in our home game... we have a 'third > party' of Outcasts and Renegades which is growing, at much concern to the > two sides, centering on an Outcast Archangel and a Renegade Demon Princess > who Think They Have A Better Way. (Rebellion 2.0, if you will). Maybe > underneath it all, Lilith is doing something similar, and the two Powers > are only beginning to suspect it.... This is somewhat similar to an idea I have, where Eli (and possibly Lilith) is plotting to close of both Heaven's and Hell's access to Earth... :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:28:25 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal forces Wade Trupke wrote: > Hmmm... If the being a Shedite (or Kyrio) is > possessing gets pregnant, or gets someone else > pregnant, does the child reflect the Celestial > heritage, even though the bodies involved were > purely Corporeal being (who just happened to be > under the control of a Celestial being)? I believe this was addressed earlier: Assuming both parents are human, the child is also human, regardless of possession of either individual. (Otherwise, there'd be a lot more Celestially-tainted childred out there. Check out the Shedim of Lust attunement.) > Wade (who really shouldn't be thinking about > these things) - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:20:36 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> According to the midrash, anyway, pre-Fall humans were a thousand feet >> tall, armor plated, and glowed in the dark. > >So Lilith, the primal femme fatale, is a Godzilla-sized day-glo >armadillo? Oh, *that's* seductive! > Though it puts a whole new perspective on Lilith's leaving the Garden.... [Adam] I... live. I am life. I am man. Oh, glory! But who will be my-- [Lilith] ROOOOOOOOOOAR! [Adam] ...you're not what I had in mind.... [Lilith] I *knew* you couldn't handle strong women! I'm leaving! - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:38:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? At 9:47 AM -0500 3/16/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Lilith doesn't need to Redeem to enter the side of the angels -- she >just needs to act selflessly. I'd say that this is probably very, very close to canon... Mind, from the angels' point of view (or at least Heavenly propaganda, depending on how you play it), she's been selfish from day one, refusing to submit her desires to be a lab rat for God. That would take a lot of de-selfishing. Kronos undoubtedly believes she's reached her fate, too. >She's as powerful (in theory) as the rest of his Princes, but in >the end [Lucifer] can't control her -- he can only manipulate her >and hope. This is a logical conclusion, which I'm not going to make any pronouncements about one way or the other. >Which, to backtrack the debate to another debate, could be why where the >Demons emphasize the demonic sides of a Word, and the Angels the selfless >side of a Word, Lilith holds both sides -- the whole Enchilada of Freedom. >Because anything that increases Freedom, from Might-Makes-Right Anarchy to >the Constitution, increases her power as well. >Which implies that she's really playing both sides against the middle. What, doesn't everyone? O:> At 10:17 AM -0500 3/16/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> According to the midrash, anyway, pre-Fall humans were a thousand feet >> tall, armor plated, and glowed in the dark. > >So Lilith, the primal femme fatale, is a Godzilla-sized day-glo >armadillo? Oh, *that's* seductive! Well, at least that implies she's a Texan, and an Austinite as well! Only in Austin could you get *that* tacky... (I was born there. I know.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:38:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Seraph and Truth At 2:25 PM +0100 3/16/99, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 4:18 AM +0000 3/16/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Elizabeth McCoy > >> >>Unless they *say* it's sarcasm before or immediately after, they >> >>can't do it, and even then, they're going to be wincing to have the >> >>vile, fetid taste of false words on their tongue. And they *certainly* >> >>can't do it in text without enclosing it in tags. >> > >> >But it's obvious from the context. >> >> Not necessarily. It's false. It's words which don't mean what they >> sound like. It's bad enough that humans use words that don't mean >> what they sound like, but it's at a *MINIMUM* borderline-dissonant >> for a Seraph to do it. > >The problem is that words that mean one thing to one person doesn't have >to mean the same thing to another person. If the Seraph says "That futon >is blue" and someone listening to him thinks he's talking about the >painting on the wall that's obviously not blue, does he take dissonance? >What if the Seraph actually thinks "futon" means "painting", because >someone's tricked him? As soon as he realizes that he said a not-truth, he'll go neurotic. If he realizes that he was misunderstood, he'll go frantic trying to correct the misunderstanding. He's a creature of *TRUTH*, not semantics. >> Besides, you did it in text, and didn't include sarcasm-tags, >> and it wasn't immediately obvious. Take the dissonance like >> a snake! > >I hope you don't mean that sarcams and irony wasn't possible to use before >the event of SGML-tags? :) In text? Bingo! (Or some other construction: "Thus, I write with sarcasm: Servitors of the Wind are always lawful and sedate. Ha, ha.") And even then, it crawls at the brain... Okay, let's go back to Edelstein's rather nice, half-remembered-by-me description of dissonance. Imagine the most gross, disgusting, horrible action possible. This will probably involve at least one of rotting bodies, excrement, vomit, and sexual activities. Get creative. Think of the one thing that you just utterly cannot concieve of ever doing, because it would be *TOO* disgusting and horrible and *WRONG*. I'll wait. Okay, got the image in your head? Good. Don't tell me -- I need to eat breakfast later. Now, if you're a Seraph, telling a not-truth is going to get the same reaction. It is *JUST* as repellant (if not more-so) than all those other things. Sarcasm is saying not-truth and counting on others to realize the tone of voice carries the "reverse these words" information. For a Seraph, it's excrement made out of plastic, vomit made out of soup and food coloring, rotting bodies formed from rubber and make-up, perverted sex acts with thin underwear on. They may be able to cope with it, with a lot of practice, but it's always going to be reminding them of that horrible, horrible thing -- actual intentional not-truth. [And if they *do* teach themselves that this sarcasm is a reverse- truth, they *certainly cannot* use sarcastic tones to speak actual truth! Of course, that tactic is also pretty dodgy.] Or take it in a different way -- imagine stabbing yourself with a knife versus just cutting yourself on a thorn. (Heck, everyone here knows how bad a *papercut* hurts...) They're not human. They're created in a world where *only* truth can be spoken. It takes them a while to learn sarcasm even *exists*, and the penalties for lying are huge. They just don't do things that humans take for granted. But they get to ask questions sarcastically. "Oh, so you *want* to Fall and become an icky nasty Shedite who takes delight in torturing small babies?" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:26:57 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Waiting to hear from you. Whistling in the Dark wrote: > So... if you call this, but dial 10-10-321 first... would this strengthen > Vapula's word as a technology use, Andrealphus's word as cheap meaningless > phone sex, Haagenti's word for meaningless consumption, Nybbas's word for > media use or Malphas's word for using a factionalized long distance carrier? This is a seriously cool idea. Collect calls to annoying spammers using annoying television spammers. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:46:50 -0500 (EST) From: Eslin Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, EDG wrote: > Name exactly one really good application of an angelic resonance which > cannot be achieved through the use of any other angelic resonance. Seraph Check Digit 6. (Hey, you asked... :) ) -- eslin@buffnet.net / chephirah@fiat.justitia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:51:14 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal forces At 7:50 AM -0800 3/16/99, Wade Trupke wrote: >Hmmm... If the being a Shedite (or Kyrio) is >possessing gets pregnant, or gets someone else >pregnant, does the child reflect the Celestial >heritage, even though the bodies involved were >purely Corporeal being (who just happened to be >under the control of a Celestial being)? Read the APG and/or IPG. It's answered there. It's *also* answered somewhat in the forthcoming Corporeal Player's Guide. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:50:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa At 11:06 AM -0500 3/16/99, Emily Dresner wrote: >> But I do think there are other examples where >> the BL, acting wisely and carefully, could use a >> Geas quite effectively. [...] >Okay, then here's the test: > >Name exactly one really good application of a geas which cannot be >accomplished through the use of any other angelic resonance, to justify >its use or applications through the direction of an Archangel. Geases are last-ditch "got no time" tools. "Mr. security guard, we need to get in here. Now. We don't have time to explain why, but *YOU WILL LET US IN*." "Drop that gun. Now." "No, you *don't* want to go with that person. Go sit in that cafe for a few hours." (Until the Sword-Servitors finish chopping the Balseraph up.) "Here's $20. Please guide me to the YMCA." (Actually used by my PC, when confronted with a gang. That the guy took the $20 and started guiding the Lilim to the place ... made some interesting effects with the rest of the gang.) They're also good tracking tools, and don't need to be invoked. Celestial Song of Affinity is wonderful. "Okay, I hooked him when I was in service to Lust. Now we can track him." Another amusing tracking trick is to hook your friends before they go into danger... Djinn Fuzz may stop Cherubim or Djinn, but it won't stop a hook. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:53:24 -0600 (CST) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Survey: Defection Tendencies Here's a question to all you celestials out there: Which Band has the greatest potential for Redemption, and why? Not the whole Band mind you, but individual members working on Earth. On the same note, which Choir has the greatest risk for members Falling, and why? My choice for most likely to Redeem are Impudites. They are already friendly and it's such a short step from pretending to care about the humans you use to getting involved in their lives and really caring. As for Chor most likely to Fall I say Seraphim, because they have standards which are very difficult to maintain on the Corporeal Realm. Lying for the right reason is SO EASY and a big temptation. Many Seraphim might slip. And remember, the first Angel to Fall was a Seraph. So, what does everyone else think? Ben Elohite of Neat Ideas Servitor of Creation ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:19:13 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> The deal that keeps on giving: Would this work? Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > All this talk of Lilim has given me an idea. Lilim can geas themselves to > honor a bargain. Suppose someone (say a celestially savvy sorceror, and > say it three times fast) had something a particularly foolish or desperate > Lilim needed. He makes a deal with her (has her geas herself to keep it) > to "get him out of debt from everyone he owes." He then gives here what > she wants, thus obligating her to keep up her end. She goes out and > manages to pay back his college loans and his mortgage. But in the > meantime he's been accumulating more debt in order to buy that boat he > always wanted. Every time one debt is paid up she turns around and finds > another still unpaid. What's worse, is he said ALL debts, which means any > deals he makes with Lilim she has to go and repay. The geas isn't > impossible to repay, because he will eventually die and thus stop > accumulating debt (Unless of course he starts making deals in the > Afterlife, but even that has a potential end). Is the sorceror sitting > pretty or is there something that could bust this deal? For one thing, 'everything he owes' is a precise amount, fixed in time. 'Everything I owe and will possibly every owe' is a different matter. Also, it's pretty cheap just to shoot the guy and then work off his debts. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:51:44 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa >FWIW, drug addicts can be manipulated into believing they need treatment >by the ruthless emotional manipulation of an Elohite, and this treatment >is far more likely to stick. The addict thinks its a good idea and pursues >it himself as a life change. This is a much better take on this >particular problem then the Bright Lilim geas. > >- Em Absolutely. However, Bright Lilim are not Elohites -- they have to use the tools they have to accomplish the work they must. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:04:00 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? I think part of the problem is that people assume that if something is human, it will tend to be less evil than most demon princes. I tend to think that humans can (and do) teach demons quite a few things in the 'how to be evil' department. And I wonder how much they learned from Lilith... Don't get the idea that even if she is human, this makes her automatically more neutral than evil. History is full of humans who thoroughly deserve to be in Hell, and frankly, after spending millenia enticing more souls into the pit, I would be pretty sure she is one of those. It's not a passive 'I couldn't help it' kind of evil. It's a collaborative aiding of the adversary - -- selling your own flesh and blood (both mortal and celestial) into eternal bondage torture and slavery. Oh suuuure heaven wants her. With her head on a plate. She is living her fate right now. jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:15:34 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> Celestial disguise (was Seraph and Truth) Shadowstar wrote on 16 March 1999 14:43 >>-EDG >> Oo. Can a Balseraph of Kronos fool Archangels with their Attunement? >>How about the Seraphim Council? (I'm thinking of a Liar of Fate with >>an Angelic Word.. would an Angelic Word bind properly to a demon? How >>'bout a Bright?) > > This was either covered in the FAQ, or here on the list: Essentially >the cannonical answer is '-hell no-!'. *evil grin* > > First of all, the Balseraph does -not- Celestially look like the Angel >in question. IMC I'd tinge the Bal with a hint of the Angel they are >duplicating (which is why my Bal picture was so bloody dark, and why I >wanna try my hand at a Bal-Ofanite next. *grin*) The Song of Concealment can let a Celestial disguise their Celestial Form, however it can be detected using the Seraphim Res. and something else which I shouldn't really say because it could be a spoiler. So the Balserpah could disguise themselves, but I don't think they would make it past the Seraphim Council. > "I don't lie. I just tell the Truth as it is." Hmmm.. I'd expect a comment like that from a Balseraph Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "No, Really! Would I lie to you?" :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:21:17 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa > > Name exactly one really good application of an angelic resonance which > > cannot be achieved through the use of any other angelic resonance. > > Seraph Check Digit 6. > > (Hey, you asked... :) ) Bingo. And not even a song available. (But I don't have the songbook, so something might be in there.) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:29:23 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Survey: Defection Tendencies >Here's a question to all you celestials out there: Which Band has the >greatest potential for Redemption, and why? Not the whole Band mind you, >but individual members working on Earth. On the same note, which Choir >has the greatest risk for members Falling, and why? > >My choice for most likely to Redeem are Impudites. They are already >friendly and it's such a short step from pretending to care about the >humans you use to getting involved in their lives and really caring. > >As for Chor most likely to Fall I say Seraphim, because they have >standards which are very difficult to maintain on the Corporeal Realm. >Lying for the right reason is SO EASY and a big temptation. Many Seraphim >might slip. And remember, the first Angel to Fall was a Seraph. > >So, what does everyone else think? > Cherubim and Djinn. Cherubim can easily get put into a "no win" situation where they rack up dissonance -- and when they get dissonance, it's usually because they've failed a charge, so you get massive guilt and a real *belief* no one loves you, because the one who was the Expression of Love to you is now dead, and it's Your Fault. If Djinn can confront that inner core of self-hatred and need for love and reach out in love to another, at the same time... it's hard, but it can be done, and they can *remember* (unless they're Hellborn) what it was like.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:32:58 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Survey: Defection Tendencies On Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 10:53:24AM -0600, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > Here's a question to all you celestials out there: Which Band has the > greatest potential for Redemption, and why? Not the whole Band mind you, > but individual members working on Earth. On the same note, which Choir > has the greatest risk for members Falling, and why? > I'm not sure there is an answer to this question. But I'll give you my opinion, for what it's worth. > My choice for most likely to Redeem are Impudites. They are already > friendly and it's such a short step from pretending to care about the > humans you use to getting involved in their lives and really caring. > It seems to me that the most paranoid Bands are Balseraphs, Calabim and Habbalah (hmm...only 3 out of 7). Because of this, it would seem that they are the least likely to undergo the change of heart necessary for redemption. > As for Chor most likely to Fall I say Seraphim, because they have > standards which are very difficult to maintain on the Corporeal Realm. > Lying for the right reason is SO EASY and a big temptation. It's easy for humans. Very hard for Seraphim. I might note that I've played a Seraph of the Wind for quite some time now, and she was dissonant once, for the half-second it took before I corrected myself. (In retrospect I think that was when she clicked for me. It was the first thing she did without any premeditation on my part.) That was during the second session I played her. It is, I admit, a big problem for human players, and I definitely think that some people simply can't play Seraphim well. Many Seraphim > might slip. And remember, the first Angel to Fall was a Seraph. > I might argue for both Cherubim and Djinn. The gap between them seems to be the smallest one, in some respects. Of course, to some degree there is an absence of choice when a Cherub Falls. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I have said that the Elohim are perilous. I have not said that they desire hurt to any life, or to the Earth. But in their own tales they are portrayed as the bastion of the last truth, and that truth they preserve in ways which baffle all that behold them." The One Tree, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:39:36 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal forces On Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 01:44:43PM -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > In the normal course of celestial life, what are corporeal forces for? > In my opinion, certain attunements and Songs, and that's all. (Like Lilim of the War.) So what does a celestial > need corporeal forces *for*, in its own internal economy? They all > have to have at least one. > IMO, new demons are created with Corporeal Forces so that you don't get the spectacle of 7-Force scum with the same number of Ethereal and Celestial Forces as those Knights who have been on heavy Earth duty. The other reason for giving Corporeal Forces to major Celestials (as opposed to relievers/demonlings), so that they're ready to be assigned to Earth, is a lot more real for angels, given Heaven's lower Celestial population. But generally, there isn't much use (arguably Etheral Forces are more valuable on Earth anyway), and I'm not enthused by the idea of any angel/demon with more Corporeal than Celestial Forces. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I have said that the Elohim are perilous. I have not said that they desire hurt to any life, or to the Earth. But in their own tales they are portrayed as the bastion of the last truth, and that truth they preserve in ways which baffle all that behold them." The One Tree, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:37:09 -0500 From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? >Don't get the idea that even if she is human, this makes her automatically >more neutral than evil. History is full of humans who thoroughly deserve to >be in Hell, and frankly, after spending millenia enticing more souls into >the pit, I would be pretty sure she is one of those. It's not a passive 'I >couldn't help it' kind of evil. It's a collaborative aiding of the adversary >-- selling your own flesh and blood (both mortal and celestial) into eternal >bondage torture and slavery. > >Oh suuuure heaven wants her. With her head on a plate. She is living her >fate right now. > Just to add 2 cents, I have to say I agree with this. Its one of the things that bothers me about the "Lillith is cool, Lillith is neutral" thing. She did actively and eagerly side with a force that would readily see all humanity either 1. destroyed, 2. enslaved and milked for Essence and Forces for the rest of eternity. Sure, she had problems with Heaven but there is a diffrence between not agreeing with Heaven and throwing your lot in with Hell. Lillith, at least to me, is one of the more selfish "evil" of the Princes and all the more insidious as she can seem "nice" on the surface. Email Address change:Please update to the following: nexus@uky.campuscwix.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:22:04 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa On Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 11:46:50AM -0500, Eslin wrote: > > Name exactly one really good application of an angelic resonance which > > cannot be achieved through the use of any other angelic resonance. > > Seraph Check Digit 6. > The Ofanite ability to outspeed cars while in Celestial form. (Please don't say it isn't useful because I've used it.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I have said that the Elohim are perilous. I have not said that they desire hurt to any life, or to the Earth. But in their own tales they are portrayed as the bastion of the last truth, and that truth they preserve in ways which baffle all that behold them." The One Tree, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:44:20 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Set Up > > No -- he gets fried by the Light of Heaven, and will quickly die if > he goes inside it. The FAQ needs to be fixed. (Karakash!! The FAQ > needs to be fixed!) done. Other new stuff should be up soon. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:52:07 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa >> > Name exactly one really good application of an angelic resonance which >> > cannot be achieved through the use of any other angelic resonance. >> >> Seraph Check Digit 6. >> >> (Hey, you asked... :) ) > >Bingo. And not even a song available. (But I don't have the songbook, so >something might be in there.) > >- Em So... we've established that a Bright Lilim can't do Seraph Check Digit 6? Ooooookay.... (I say again -- we've clearly moved into the "personal style of campaigning" level of the Bright Lilim Reasonance Debate.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:56:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial disguise (was Seraph and Truth) At 5:15 PM +0000 3/16/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >Shadowstar wrote on 16 March 1999 14:43 [...] >The Song of Concealment can let a Celestial disguise their Celestial Form, >however it can be detected using the Seraphim Res. and something else >which I shouldn't really say because it could be a spoiler. Superiors vs. Servitors, I'd say would qualify. >So the >Balserpah could disguise themselves, but I don't think they would make it >past the Seraphim Council. It's the smoking as the Light of Heaven fries them. Dead givaway. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:23:21 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? >> > According to the midrash, anyway, pre-Fall humans were a thousand feet >> > tall, armor plated, and glowed in the dark. >> >> So Lilith, the primal femme fatale, is a Godzilla-sized day-glo >> armadillo? Oh, *that's* seductive! > >Yeah, and it ROCKS! > >I just have this image of Huge Lilith walking down the streets of >Shal-Mari, battling the giant blobs from Outer Space which are invading >the sancity of Hell! The Martians are invading Shal-Mari! Er, you do believe your friendly Media Balseraph when he tells you this? Sure you do. Really. (now where did I leave those War Of The Worlds tapes...) - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:31:36 +0300 From: "Tick Tock" Subject: Re: IN> Survey: Defection Tendencies - -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Acosta >Here's a question to all you celestials out there: Which Band has the >greatest potential for Redemption, and why? Not the whole Band mind you, >but individual members working on Earth. On the same note, which Choir >has the greatest risk for members Falling, and why? My vote for the falling angel would the Elohim. Maintaining composure in the midst of the more negative effects of emotion (depression, anger, greed) *should* be second nature the most collected of the Host. Instead I think that eventually pity and compassion would trip them in little ways until the more negative emotions seem to be justified. Redemption candidates? Impudites followed by Calabim that see redeeming as a stepping stone to becoming Malekites in the service of Michael or David. Just a thought. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:11:55 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> shedim working overtime Shedim Working Overtime (to the tune of Senses Working Overtime by XTC) "Hey hey, my cloud is grey, there's straw for the donkeys and the innocents corrupt so quickly, corrupt so quickly! my, my God's a lie there's fodder for the canon and the guilty ones are all too easy all too easy. and all the world is full ot 'tates, they're just for me to keep in place and I can see, hear, smell, touch, taste and I've got one, two, three, four, five shedim working overtime trying to break this poor thing, I've got one, two, three, four, five shedim working overtime trying to taste the difference 'tween heaven and the slime pain and the pleasure and now your balls are all mine.. . . hey hey, night fights day, they're fooled by my thinking and the innocents will all die slowly all die slowly my, my the sky will cry fuel for my thirst and the guilty one's will all die slowly all die slowly. and all the world is biscuit - shaped, it's just for me to feed my face and I can see,hear, smell, touch, taste and I've got one, two, three, four, five sense working overtime trying to take this all in, I've got one, two, three, four, five senses working overtime trying to taste the difference 'tween the lemons and limes the pain and the pleasure and the church bells softly chime.. . . and words might fall from Bals' lies and Calabites give you black eyes and busses might skid on black ice but to me it's very very beautiful (Hell's glory!) beautiful (an evil beauty!) Enough already…you lot sound like a choir! Martin Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:44:30 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Shedim of Asmodeus Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 3:48 AM -0500 2/11/99, Niccolo wrote: > > Do Shedim of Asmodeus have to take a Role, considering that they > >jump from host to host? > > No -- but since they don't *have* to jump, they can. Also, don't forget that there are some roles that are not body-specific. For example, CrackMaster the computer hacker might only be known online and not in person. Not a very high-level role to be sure! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1157 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.