From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 18 17:33:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09912 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:33:15 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA23218 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:25:40 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:25:40 -0600 Message-Id: <199903182325.RAA23218@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1165 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 18 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1165 In this digest: Re: IN> Remnant self-help? Re: IN> Bad Fanfic Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) Re: IN> How Choirs fall Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> What is the value? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> The Dream... Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Demonic Words Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) IN> The importance of being human. (was Why on earth can't Malakim fall?) Re: IN> Bad Fanfic Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Demonic Words Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Re: IN> Demonic Words IN> Really Amazingly Bad Fanfic Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) Re: IN> Demonic Words Re: IN> We the Lilim demand our rites! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:25:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Remnant self-help? At 7:37 AM -0800 3/18/99, Daniel Sublett wrote: >Can a remnant PC restore its own Celestial Forces through the use of earned character pts. (pg.202)? No. >Or do the points spent on Perception and Will not turn into Celestial Force? Bingo. They can get 3 points of Perception and Will, _with the GM's permission_, but no more. The GM is fully justified in saying that if you had partly raised your Perception and Will ahead of time, you can keep that, but can have no *future* raises. The GM is also perfectly justified in saying, "You're a Remnant. You don't get any Perception and Will at all. You're the celestial equivalent to the walking dead, just like if you'd get basically no free will if you chose to play a zombi. Deal with it." If the GM chooses to allow this for some reason, as the GM certainly may, then it will probably be a divine or infernal miracle, and a major part of the theme of the campaign, instead of a "throwaway" miracle. (I mean, if the GM wants to have throwaway miracles, 500 Bright Lilim, Choir-swapping, Band-swapping, all Lilim being puppets of Lilith (and you thought Kyriotates were bad!), and Haagenti on the verge of Redemption because Novalis got him hooked on her brownies, then sure, he can do that. But it's basically turned into a Silly Game, and you're on your own for those!) Also, the GM will want to consider whether this is still the same being, or if it is a new person who happens to have some memories of being a Remnant (and thus the vague impressions of being 'bigger' before). The GM will have to decide if the Remnant really did it all by himself (in which case, *any* Remnant could logically do that) or if it was secretly aided by God/Lucifer/Superior(s). The GM may want to decide if the character has *any* memories of being a celestial, or if he avoids his dissonance conditions only by instinct and only knows that he is something not-quite-human. Hey, he may not even know if he's an angel or a demon! This can, obviously, generate a lot of role-playing potential. All the special cases can. However, if they were *common*, they wouldn't be special cases anymore and therefore would not be interesting to role-play. It's the GM's responsibility to keep special cases special -- or not. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:25:33 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bad Fanfic At 8:25 AM -0500 3/18/99, Emily Dresner wrote: >So sitting in my inbox is a piece of excruciatingly bad IN Fanfic I wrote >- as all fanfic is, by basic definition. I'd like to get it out of my >inbox, as it has been sitting there since January and I have other more >exciting things to clutter it up with right now. > >At 10K, it's not real big as fic goes. And it's Nybbasean. Is there any >interest in sharing - ie posting it? If it's not more than 2-3 screens, then that's not a problem. Though there's also the ever-popular "put it on the web-page and give the URL" tactic! O;> (Which is, I note, where long fiction should go.) - --Beth, still a Djinn Princess but not chewing on people today. Yet. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:25:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa At 2:27 PM +0000 3/18/99, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 11:26:52AM -0500, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: >That was me, all right, though I don't recall where I got it from (GURPS >Celtic Myth?). When I looked up De Bhaldraithe's dictionary, I found out >that the term geas is itself a plural form in Irish. It's complicated >somewhat by the fact that usage of the word in In Nomine is pretty far >from its usage in celtic mythology. A geas-hook is a meaningless phrase in >Irish. Isn't geas more akin to 'destiny/fate/wyrd', in their mundane usages, in the Celtic Myth book? It's less of the fantasy, "I do geas you to do this thing whether you want to or not" in the sense of supernatural compulsion? (And I'll apologize for hooks, but there needed to be *some* term for that state when a Lilim has fulfilled a Need, but hasn't ordered the subject to do something so he can resist with a Will roll. Geas-hook lent itself to verbs -- "hooking" someone -- and sounded better than proto-Geas.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:25:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) At 2:25 AM -0500 3/18/99, EDG wrote: >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: [...] >> [...] Can you imagine Micheal giving a >> stirring battle speech when every statement was prefixed with "I >> believe..." or someother description of uncertainty. And I say again Truth >> (as in the ideal of truth, not truths that are true in all possible >> universes) goes beyond mere statements. > >Yes, I can, actually. > >"Soldiers, this is what I believe. I believe that we are right. I >believe that we are more powerful than our opponents. I believe that we >have the power of God on our side. And I believe that, figuratively >speaking, we can go out there and kick some demon ass!" *wild cheers* I'll go you one better, for a phrasing of belief. "...I say to you today, my friends, that in spite of the differences and frustrations of the moment, I still have a dream ... I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.' ... I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today." - --Dr. Martin Luther King, Aug 28, 1963 (If it's good enough for a Tether of Blandine . . .) Ahem. Anyway, with the possible exception of the "my friends" line (assuming the Seraph wasn't sure there weren't a few who were just acquaintances, and even rivals, in the crowd), a good Seraph can say all that. He can quote another work, even if it says something he's not sure of (because it is True that the other words were said or written, and he is indicating that they are not his statement). He can state that it is True he has hopes for the future. (He will have had to learn that "dream" isn't just what humans have when they sleep, though, but is also in the sense of "image of the potential future.") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:25:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> How Choirs fall At 2:37 PM +0000 3/18/99, Sam Kington wrote: >Hi, > >The recent thread about defection tendencies, among with other things >going on in my campaign, made me think: how is it exactly that angels >fall? I reckon most angels start tripping when, for the best intentions >in the world, they emulate their counterparts' resonance. Angels can't use a demonic resonance until they've Fallen and become a demon. That said, I've seen some campaigns where someone *can* use their Fallen resonance -- which does, mind, generate great gory gobs of dissonance. Probably at least 5 or 6 notes, right there. http://www.access.digex.net/~fiat/week1/d6/log12j3.html is an example of that house-rule, where an Elohite (and his Cherub girlfriend) have been captured by the Game, and the Elohite gets a 666 on a Will roll to resist a Habbalite's resonance . . . Also, I'd think that an angel who *wanted* to Fall, could. Either they do things that are dissonant, or they can simply Jump, denying God, denying Heaven, denying the true Symphony. Poof. Insta-demon. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:39:27 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? At 10:17 AM -0800 3/18/99, Martin Arnold wrote: >Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Because God made them that way, at the very instant that the Rebellion started. Because they already Fell. They're just demons who are allowed to stay in Heaven. So they just get Discord, like us. Because you can't Fall off the floor. They are believed to never Fall. Which means that it's never happened yet. There are some beings who believe that this is more because they simply police themselves very strictly, than because they just *can't*. Why don't Superiors make the Cannot Fall aspect part of other Choirs? Because they can't. Only God can make someone unable to Fall, and when He did that, He got Malakim. 'Nuff said. This also why they don't suffer Trauma. Because God said so. And no, the No Trauma aspect can't be added to other Choirs. Only God can change someone so that they don't suffer Trauma, and the last time he did that, he got Malakim. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:45:25 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> What is the value? - -----Original Message----- From: Martin Arnold To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 18 March 1999 18:34 Subject: IN> What is the value? >. I personally can't see the value >in what would seem to be an in-game tourist guide. > Are you sure you haven't read it? :) jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:37:13 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? In a message dated 3/18/99 10:21:46 AM, martyarnie@hotmail.com writes: >Why on earth can't Malakim fall? > Look back in the digest for various explanations. My favorite was, "Malakim don't fall, they bounce," (i.e., Malakim are creatures of Honor. anti-Malakim would be creatures of Treachery, and thus redeem...) >Seems to me that Heaven has an unbelievable advantage with incorruptible >(or so it seems) warriors. Why don't they just make all earthbound >angels Malakim? Train them up properly (i.e., so they don't screw >everything up by behaving like Malakim) and Bob's your uncle. > Not incorruptible, merely not capable of falling (at least as far as anyone knows...). Corruption is not the same as falling, in my humble opinion. Also, you have a slightly one-sided view of Malakim. I have a Malakite of Novalis in my campaign who is a Salvation Army officer. His view of "not allowing an evil to live" is to prevent the Evils of homelessness, poverty, and drug abuse in his area. >In fact why hasn't Jean tinkered with breeding out the 'dissonance' gene >within angels as a whole. Maybe he has secret experiments aimed at >perfecting angels so the rest of the choirs are inFallible. Perhaps his >experiments require Malakite 'essence.' Celestial Eugenics. Maybe Vapula >has similar plans to build the perfect demon. > In your game, go ahead. In my game, that's interfering with Free Will, and will get you a visit from the Almighty. The Malakim have freely chosen their bondage, had their ears pierced with awls to the doorpost of the higher Heavens, and wear their chains with Holy pride. The Angelic beings who can't make this commitment become other choirs. >Martin > Mark (In pro-Malakim mode...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:51:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > The Malakim have freely chosen their bondage, had their ears pierced > with awls to the doorpost of the higher Heavens.... Now, *there's* a Biblical reference you don't encounter every day. (What about Malikim who were created such, instead of becoming such.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:51:48 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> The Dream... In a message dated 3/18/99 10:25:03 AM, emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: >I'll go you one better, for a phrasing of belief. > >"...I say to you today, my friends, that in spite of the differences >and frustrations of the moment, I still have a dream ... I have a dream >that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning >of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men >are created equal.' ... I have a dream that my four children will one >day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of >their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today." >--Dr. Martin Luther King, Aug 28, 1963 > >(If it's good enough for a Tether of Blandine . . .) > I had a theory about this... One of the most interesting parts of Dr. King's speech is that the 'I have a dream' segment was completely unintended. He had been talking with friends about his dream, but nothing had solidified. Then, during his speech, which was fairly pedestrian, someone on the stage behind him said, 'Tell them about the Dream, Martin.' And he paused, and told them about the dream. The rest is history. The strange part is that no one is sure who said it. Mary of Peter, Paul, and Mary (I forget her last name...) claims that is was Ella Fitzgerald. Ella insisted that it wasn't her. In my campaign there's a Kyriotate of Destiny, now in service to Dreams, who knows the truth. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:06:33 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >Call me crazy if you will, but I assume that being Bound to a Demonic Word > >is altering your soul in a Hellish manner. It should, IMO, be harder to > >fix her soul than it would be to fix the soul of a random Free Lilim > >(assuming equal will and desire to Redeem), because the Hellish imprint is > >so much greater. > > Surely what makes a Word Demonic is the fact that the Wordbound is a demon, > unless it is *evil*, which Freedom isn't. I think you're splitting hairs here. NO Word is 'evil' per se (Fire, Drugs, etc), it's all in how you use them. Lilith's Word seems to be 'Freedom as long as you pay me what you owe). And it seems to me that even if she isn't a demon, she's the next best (worst) thing considering she seems to work exclusively with Demons. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:58:44 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Words On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Kevin Walsh wrote on 18 March 1999 > >(and in > >all fairness, most of the Words held by Princes aren't intrinsically > >evil, Fate and Gluttony are all I can think of). > Add Cruelty to that list. > > (I *HATE* that Word) ...and Lust, and Greed, and.... -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:04:42 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >I'll go you one better, for a phrasing of belief. >(If it's good enough for a Tether of Blandine . . .) >He can state that it is True he >has hopes for the future. And that is where the power of his words lie, in that he is stating his Truth, his Dream. The True way in which people should be treated. When you hear the Truth, when you feel it in your heart you cannot deny it. In the words of Ted Koppel: "In it's purest form truth is not a polite tap on the shouder. It is a howling reproach. What Moses brought down from Mount Sinai were not the Ten Suggestions." Now I'm no Christian (or Jew for that matter), but I do believe that Truth in it's purest form has incredible force, beauty and cannot be denied (not if you have really seen it). Recently I've been thinking about countable infinities, uncountable infinities and the expressability of numbers a lot and I'm almost positive that I've discovered a really scary Truth (and I do mean Truth). I've yet to fully prove it or realise it's consequences, but when I do I think my world view will be *very* different. >(He will have had to learn that "dream" isn't just what humans have >when they sleep, though, but is also in the sense of "image of >the potential future.") Well what does "Dreams" mean in the Heavenly tongue? Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:03:50 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> The importance of being human. (was Why on earth can't Malakim fall?) Martin Arnold wrote on 18 March 1999 >Why on earth can't Malakim fall? I think it's got something to do with their nature being somehow related to Uriel's Word. >Seems to me that Heaven has an unbelievable advantage with incorruptible >(or so it seems) warriors. I guess that was part of the idea in making them. >Why don't they just make all earthbound >angels Malakim. There are far more notes in the Symphony than honour and all of them are important (to some degree). >Train them up properly (i.e. so they don't screw >everything up by behaving like Malakim) and Bob's your uncle. Sorry I don't quite understand what you mean by this? >In fact why hasn't Jean tinkered with breeding out the 'dissonance' gene >within angels as a whole. Maybe without the possiblity for a gaining dissonance they are somehow unstable, and the forces can't keep together. >Maybe he has secret experiments aimed at >perfecting angels so the rest of the choirs are inFallible. >Perhaps his >experiments require Malakite 'essence'. Possibly, but it's possible you can't mix the choirs this simply, possibly the choirs are the Themes* in the Symphony that God thought were important during creation. The Truths of the Symphony (kinda like Socrates theory of Forms), maybe trying to mix these Truths in the Perfect forms of Celestials doesn't works (The Theme of Truth Resonates too strongly in a Seraph for the Theme of Motion to mix fully into the Seraphs Melody [though of course Truth and Motion do mix very well :-)]). Maybe God wanted all these Themes to sound in the Symphony, and maybe God realised that in order for those to Ring in one vessel it couldn't be created from the Pure and Simple angels, it had be come from a much more Complex Vessel. And maybe when God mixed the Truths of the Symphony into a more Complex vessel it didn't turn out like anything before it didn't innately Shine with the Light of Heaven, it had the possibility to but it also had a disposition for selfishness, for vanity, for narrowmindedness, for evil. But maybe God didn't expect The Ultimate Melody to ring from these complex creatures first time, so maybe he gave them the ability to multiply unlike God's angels, and through this the chance to evolve to someday reach the possibility of the Ultimate Melody. But then again maybe not. *I'm being metaphorical I don't mean Themes as how they are described in Liber Canticorum, or maybe I do I haven't really digested it enough, not enough time) Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:17:19 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Bad Fanfic In a message dated 3/18/99 7:30:35 AM Central Standard Time, zenith@umich.edu writes: > So sitting in my inbox is a piece of excruciatingly bad IN Fanfic I wrote > - as all fanfic is, by basic definition. I'd like to get it out of my > inbox, as it has been sitting there since January and I have other more > exciting things to clutter it up with right now. > > At 10K, it's not real big as fic goes. And it's Nybbasean. Is there any > interest in sharing - ie posting it? > > - Em If you don't post it, send it to me privately. You've got me all curious, now. Brian A Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:22:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) At 9:04 PM +0000 3/18/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >Well what does "Dreams" mean in the Heavenly tongue? Judging from Blandine's Word and powers, it means what humans have when they sleep (that aren't nightmares), and what is hoped for, and bright fantasies that bring joy, primarily. O;> - --Beth, Archangel of Archives http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Angels/Arcangel.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:34:41 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa On Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 01:25:35PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >That was me, all right, though I don't recall where I got it from (GURPS > >Celtic Myth?). When I looked up De Bhaldraithe's dictionary, I found out > >that the term geas is itself a plural form in Irish. It's complicated > >somewhat by the fact that usage of the word in In Nomine is pretty far > >from its usage in celtic mythology. A geas-hook is a meaningless phrase in > >Irish. > > Isn't geas more akin to 'destiny/fate/wyrd', in their mundane usages, > in the Celtic Myth book? Yes, to a large extent. However, there are exceptions. Celtic myth has a lot of stories about geasa, and most of them result in someone's death. I believe the standard translation is taboo, and it may be intrinsic or (self-)imposed. It's less of the fantasy, "I do geas you to > do this thing whether you want to or not" in the sense of supernatural > compulsion? > Well, one example where someone was compelled is when Cúchulainn layed a geas on his son Connla never to give his name to a stranger, and a couple of other ones I can't remember. (And in the end Cúchulainn kills Connla, not realising that it's his son, because Connla won't tell his name.) And Diarmuid O Duibhne was put under geas never to hunt wild boar by Aonghus Og in order to prevent a curse laid upon him that he and his foster brother (who had been changed into a boar) would kill each other. Needless to remark, that didn't work either. I don't recall any stories where a geas was imposed in order to gain the geaser power, though. > (And I'll apologize for hooks, but there needed to be *some* term > for that state when a Lilim has fulfilled a Need, but hasn't ordered > the subject to do something so he can resist with a Will roll. Geas-hook > lent itself to verbs -- "hooking" someone -- and sounded better than > proto-Geas.) > It works fine for the usage in In Nomine, but I can't imagine how you'd translate into Irish. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I have said that the Elohim are perilous. I have not said that they desire hurt to any life, or to the Earth. But in their own tales they are portrayed as the bastion of the last truth, and that truth they preserve in ways which baffle all that behold them." The One Tree, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:26:30 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Steel Angel wrote on 18 March 1999 19:28 >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> >Call me crazy if you will, but I assume that being Bound to a Demonic Word >> >is altering your soul in a Hellish manner. It should, IMO, be harder to >> >fix her soul than it would be to fix the soul of a random Free Lilim >> >(assuming equal will and desire to Redeem), because the Hellish imprint is >> >so much greater. >> >> Surely what makes a Word Demonic is the fact that the Wordbound is a demon, >> unless it is *evil*, which Freedom isn't. > > I think you're splitting hairs here /mock annoyance/ They complain when I'm imprecise, and they complain when I'm too precise /mock anoyance/ . >NO Word is 'evil' per se (Fire, >Drugs, etc), it's all in how you use them. Lilith's Word seems to be >'Freedom as long as you pay me what you owe). Maybe this is spltting hairs again but IMO the Word of Cruelty is *EVIL*, but that's probably because my morality is somwhat based on epicureanism. >And it seems to me that >even if she isn't a demon, she's the next best (worst) thing considering >she seems to work exclusively with Demons. (And this may be splitting hairs again) and or course Marc and Jean ( and possibly Eli and Novalis). My point is that what makes a Word demonic is the fact that the holder of the Word's very soul is pervaded by Lucifer's Word of Darkness. Lilith may (note use of the word may) be on the same moral level as Demon's but she is not (in cannon) a Demon and so her Word is not Demonic Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:32:03 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Words - -=|horsefly|=-wrote on 18 March 1999 21:04 >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> Kevin Walsh wrote on 18 March 1999 >> >(and in >> >all fairness, most of the Words held by Princes aren't intrinsically >> >evil, Fate and Gluttony are all I can think of). >> Add Cruelty to that list. >> >> (I *HATE* that Word) > ...and Lust, and Greed, and.... Greed quite possibly but Lust? It's not *instrisically* evil. Is it? Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:36:49 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa On Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 01:25:35PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Isn't geas more akin to 'destiny/fate/wyrd', in their mundane usages, > in the Celtic Myth book? It's less of the fantasy, "I do geas you to > do this thing whether you want to or not" in the sense of supernatural > compulsion? > Bah. I just remembered an incident where someone did put someone under geas purely for personal gain: in Tóraíocht Diarmuid agus Gráinne, Gráinne geased Diarmuid to elope with her, even though Gráinne was engaged to Fionn, and Diarmuid was sworn to him. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I have said that the Elohim are perilous. I have not said that they desire hurt to any life, or to the Earth. But in their own tales they are portrayed as the bastion of the last truth, and that truth they preserve in ways which baffle all that behold them." The One Tree, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:44:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Words Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Greed quite possibly but Lust? It's not *instrisically* evil. Is it? Depends on what you mean. If you just mean sexual desire, no, it's quite morally neutral. "Lust" as one of the classic Seven Deadly Sins, though, is the act of giving sexual desire too much importance, and so is evil. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:55:02 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Really Amazingly Bad Fanfic [I wrote this on January 27th, 1999. A ton of people have already seen it. Eventually, like tomorrow, I'll HTML it and stuff it on my stories page. Like I said, it's bad. :) It was going to expand it and forgot about it. ] The writer's meeting was held in a small conference room in the tallest, shiniest, most exciting building in all of Perdition. Everything shone of chrome, polished wood, and barely contained consumer delights. Even the swivel chairs themselves seemed to throb with marketting hype. At one end of the table sat two studio heads - those who conferred fear and undescrible terror upon those poor scriptwriters who relied on them for their continued existence. At the other sat the poor scriptwriters themselves, who were properly cowering. One of the heads was a Djinn named Machack, an old hoary creature with tufts of hair sticking out of his ears. Machack had a terrible habit of getting a script, becoming obsessed with it for about a week, causing quite a bit of havoc as people scurried to make his vision Happen, and then promptly forgetting about it when something newer and fresher came along. The trick with him was to get just enough of the wheels in motion to get everyone _else_ obsessing over the script while he was busy elsewhere. The other was a Habbalah named Janath, whose fashionable exterior was coated with the bright images of Downy Fabric Softener ads. She was well known for her friendly smile, her cheery grin, her accessable demeanor, and the room filled with the hot iron pokers and iron maidens adjunct to her office. There was no trick with her; either you made it past her or you didn't. Both were staring down the three writers at the _other_ end of the table, who trembled in their seats. The Balseraph and two Impudites had been Summoned, and there they sat, awaiting their so-called Fate, surrounded by cappachino mugs, squeezy balls labeled "Perdition, INC." and friendly posters advertising Vapula's Experimental Mishaps IV. They didn't know why, they didn't know how, they just hoped it wasn't to be 'congradulated' or 'promoted'. And there everyone sat. Occasionally someone sipped some coffee. No one stirred. Minutes ticked by. Tick. Tick. Tick. The writers started to wonder if they had been mysteriously transported to the Archives, what with the clocks and the silence and all. Tick. Tick. Tick. And just when people were starting to get bored, get really bored, and almost to the point of caving in and looking out the window at the huge screens on the building across the street flashing clips of Baal's Bumbling Boys in Blue, the door burst open. First strode in Bloop, the small demonling carrying a boombox bigger them himself. From the speakers wailed the sounds of screaming techno theme music. Following Bloop, predictably, was Blip, carrying a huge neon flashing applause sign on a pole. Obligingly, the demons applauded. Then followed the small gaggle of secretaries, bodyguards, and other sundry "required" personages. These stood around and chattered with each other in the background. Finally, the Big Guy entered. The writers gulped, the heads smiled. The writers secretly believed that, behind his glasses, Nybbas had no eyes. Their Prince sat at the very head of the table and grinned at the collected assemblage of demonic host he had summoned. "Is everyone ready for All Media Day?" All Media Day is the holiest day on the Nybbean calendar, such as it is. With a calendar filled with other such marketting ploys as Easter bunnies, Sweatest Day cards, Bosses Day, Teacher's Day, Mother's Day, Father's Day, 2nd Cousin Once Removed Through A Failed Marriage Day, there's stiff competition for the consideration of Most Holy. But All Media Day won hands down. The last sunday of every January was marked as the ultimate day of Media. On Earth, this is celebrated handily by millions worldwide with a gorging of chips, beer, and commercial excess as Super Bowl Sunday. When else do millions of people tune in and drop out just to watch the commercials for hours? Blip and Bloop chortled and slimed on the carpetting. Applause swelled, signs flashed, credits were rolled in a metaphorical sense as people were introduced. The demons smiled frozen false smiles and nodded. Of course they were ready for All Media Day. Nybbas looked pleased - or about as pleased as he can ever look past the self absorbed aura of the Me which extends around him 40' in every direction. "I've called you together for a Very Special Project." The writers winced. Their Prince has a bad habit of dropping words which began with capital letters, if the words themselves liked it or not. And those words began to take on more powerful, more sinister meanings. Blip and Bloop flashed their toys. Applause! Theme music! A roar of applause came from the speaker of the boombox. Nybbas himself rubbed his hands together. "You see," he said, making sure his sunglassed eyes fell on each and every one of his most Very Important Servitors. "I have discovered a new untouched land for the Media to exploit." "Paraguay?" asked the Djinn, left ear spazmonically twitching. The Habbalah shot him a look. "Of course not, you fool," she hissed, always smiling. "Paraguay is our land for Ms. Universe Contestants." "Indonesia?" ventured one writer. "Ceylon?" ventured another. "I know, I know!" said the Balseraph, suddenly excited. "Antartica!" The Prince's eyes fell on the Balseraph, and the feeling was, while the poor serpent was quite, well, _wrong_, it might indeed be in his near future now. The Balseraph fell silent, tail twitching. "No," said the Prince, every movement and gesture and comment filled with copyrightable self-importance. "I'm sending you all to Moscow." There was a sudden silence, which was filled with laugh track and flashing applause sign. Applause. Applause! The demons blinked. Finally one of the Impudite writers, who had always stylized himself as a humorous approachable friendly sit-com kind of guy who dreamed of the successes of such shows as Full House, said, "They have a saying in Moscow. There are only two television channels. On channel one, you can watch the Empire tell you how amazingly wonderful and powerful it is. When you get bored of that, you can turn to channel two. But channel two, there are people telling you to turn back to channel one. It's Baal-TV." A momentary silence, followed by Nybbas roaring over the table, "Not any more, my boy! Perestroika has opened the door for such talented minds as yours! The censors are gone. The channels are many. There are airwaves to be filled up with sit-coms and news and violence and NIKE commercials." The Prince leaned over the table, breathing heavily with excitement. "No censors. No parental groups. No controlling bodies. No ratings. Baby, it's a goddamn wide open new land." The writers sat stunned, as they realized they had a shot at writing. The heads of studios were stunned, because they didn't really want to be sent somewhere as unpopularly gauche as Moscow. How were they going to get their jeans and adoring fans? "You leave at your nearest convenience," Nybbas said. "And I mean, really, nearest. You have roles, you have vessels. Have fun, and get a big audience cheering or screaming! And always remember, kids, that you can be replaced during the mid-season by a newer, fresher show!" Applause. Applause. Applause. Theme music swelled in the background. People walked out the door as the credits rolled - again, in a metaphorical sense. One small Impudite in the entourage said, "Thank you to all the gaffers, the grips, the lighting assistants, the production assistants and Bell's Pizza for making this meeting happen." And a moment later, like there was a change in a channel, it was all gone. One secretary stayed behind to give a short product spot for Super Chocolatty Coco Mix, and then she, too, was gone. The five sat stunned. Nybbas had spoken. They were to go to the icy cold tundra of Russia and produce.... television. Bad television. In abundance. And then, with the slow startled awakening of an audience who had just seen a particularly bad or particularly good performance - and in this case it was impossible to tell which it was - they began to clap. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:00:13 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > And that is where the power of his words lie, in that he is stating his > Truth, his Dream. The True way in which people should be treated. When > you hear the Truth, when you feel it in your heart you cannot deny it. Agh! No. That it is his dream is the Truth. That can't be denied, unless you're lying. But his dream is not Truth, necessarily. I know very few of mine are. It is True that this is what he wants to happen; it is not True that it will happen, or even that he _thinks_ it will happen. Ramesh, every time you say "his Truth", you're pointing just a bit more toward the Balseraphic resonance. That's the problem I have with this. - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "I look at God's track record, of plagues, of what we would call genocide, and I wonder if God-forsaken is such a bad thing after all..." - Omnicynic, paraphrased ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:30:01 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Words - -----Original Message----- From: Earl Wajenberg To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 18 March 1999 21:58 Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Words >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> Greed quite possibly but Lust? It's not *instrisically* evil. Is it? > >Depends on what you mean. If you just mean sexual desire, no, it's >quite morally neutral. So since the Word hs this meaning it isn't *instrisically* evil. >"Lust" as one of the classic Seven Deadly Sins, >though, is the act of giving sexual desire too much importance, and >so is evil. Joke: /Irony/Okay, I'd buy that for a dollar/Irony/ Idiom! Seriously: If that were the only meaning I'd agree it is intrisically evil, but it isn't. Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:20:18 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> We the Lilim demand our rites! On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/17/99 10:00:00 AM Central Standard Time, > emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: > > Of course, the GM has to decide whether some Prince is going to let a > > Lilim get away with an indefinite (minor) drain on his personal power, > > for a finite period of service... > Understood, but also bear in mind that each performance of that rite > strengthens that Superior's Word. And tells the Superior where you are and what you did to receive his Rite. Some Rites are also things that the Superiors *really* want to see happen, as well.... IMC, Dominic is *very* free with his 'slay the vessel of a demon' rite. Of course, if you're in Dominic's bad books when you use it you risk a Triad (if an angel in the good graces of Heaven, or a Renegade or Outcast he's decided to settle for watching closely) or a hit squad (if you're any other sort of Renegade or Outcast) coming after you. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1165 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.