From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Mar 21 10:27:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03974 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:27:44 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA28469 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:31:08 -0600 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:31:08 -0600 Message-Id: <199903211631.KAA28469@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1169 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, March 21 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1169 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: Stuff Re: IN> Question of Appropriateness Re: IN> In the Beginning (a very non-canonical Genesis) IN> Quote of the century (Fluff) IN> Celestial Words in Earthly tongues IN> The Purity Crusade Re: IN> The Purity Crusade IN> Predestination and free will IN> ADV: CABLE DESCRAMBLER ...Now Only $7.00! Re: IN> Predestination and free will Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa IN> East of Nod Re: IN> Chains on Malakim (Re: Why on earth can't Malakim fall?) Re: IN> The Purity Crusade Re: IN> The Purity Crusade Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa IN> Oh God, not the Uriel debate again IN> Oannes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:39:23 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Re: Stuff On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Hydrax 59 wrote: > >(Actually, I've never heard that at all. Sources?) [snip a bunch of sources] Hmmm... must look up stuff now. This looks interesting. Oh. I'd be interested in seeing the material. count me as interested. > I was actually referring to predestination. Predestination really depends on how you define free will in In Nomine. If God has already mapped out everything, then predestination is the rule and free will is an illusion. If God is just guiding things to a desirable destination, then free will is possible (although the purposes of God may or may not be accomplished anyway, depending on how you interpret God in the game). As far as canon goes, foreordination may be the better term. People have something that they are ordained to achieve (their Destiny), but can fail to achieve it (meaning that they get reincarnated if I remember correctly) or even reject it entirely (thus finding their Fates and being cast into Hell). > >> 3. What if lucifer is working for the divine? > > > I meant more specifically, working for the divine as in through his own > free will. Sort of a servant willing to get his hands dirty for the > divine. which brings me to another point. How come Luicifer continually > walks around as a human. You'd almost think he didn't want people to see > his celestial form Interesting idea, although it makes him sound rather Habbalah-like. I wasn't aware that Lucifer walked around as a human much, though. The impression that I got from the game is that he isn't seen all that much outside of Hell. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:47:58 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Question of Appropriateness At 4:28 PM -0400 3/20/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >> Should I drop the article or keep going with a note in the front >> 'diverging' from Canon? What's appropriate in these situations? > > Make "Metatron" the title of > the Archangel of Humanity, whoever that Archangel happens to > be. Well, it would certainly explain how Enoch could both speak to him and be said to become him.... Eh, I'll keep writing it up. I've had stuff rejected before, I might have stuff rejected again, and then I can always show it to people here. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:43:38 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> In the Beginning (a very non-canonical Genesis) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:01:01 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> Quote of the century (Fluff) "I am the Lord of Hell Fire, And bring you toasted marshmellows" Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:25:18 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Celestial Words in Earthly tongues >>> Why can I suddenly imagine a servitor of Kobal smiling as the Demon of Language Perversion gave Janus dominion over those with an embarrassing digestive problem?<<< Words don't mean the same thing in the celestial tongues that they do in English. The Angel of Cherries' Word in English is "Cherries." In the angelic tongue, it's "A specific round, red fruit growing on trees that humans like to put in their cocktails..." Demons may be better at adapting the nature of their Words, because _their_ Words are defined in the diabolical tongue, which is more....flexible. And their Words are all given by Lucifer. Which explains how the Demon of Spam was able to become not only the Demon of A Processed Meat Product by Hormel, but also the Demon of Mass Unsolicited E-mail. The Angel of Spam (if such existed -- blasphemous thought!) probably couldn't do that. - -David (nothing I say is necessarily canonical) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:33:58 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Purity Crusade >>>The Purity Crusade is a great historical point, but I simply can't reconcile genocide with any interpretation of Purity that isn't lodged directly in Hell.<<< But Uriel and his angels didn't commit genocide....unless you consider ethereal spirits to be a race. And certainly an argument can be made that they are merely figments of imagination given life through Essence, and therefore extinguishing one is not really like killing a living creature. An argument can also be made that these ethereal spirits _were_ harmful to humanity and _did_ need to be wiped out. How directly responsible Uriel is for the genocides on _Earth_ that occurred as an echo of his Crusade in the Marches is not clear -- certainly a lot of pagans and ethereal offspring got killed too, but did Uriel command that? There is also the small point that in the Old Testament, God sanctioned genocide several times. He also commanded His followers to do all sorts of things to their enemies that us modern folks consider atrocious. Clearly (if one uses the Bible for inspiration in In Nomine), human standards of morality don't apply to God and His angels. - -David (who considers Uriel one of the most interesting Archangels) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:04:45 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Purity Crusade At 8:33 PM -0500 3/20/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>The Purity Crusade is a great historical point, but I simply can't > reconcile genocide with any interpretation of Purity that isn't > lodged directly in Hell.<<< > > But Uriel and his angels didn't commit genocide....unless you consider > ethereal spirits to be a race. And certainly an argument can be made that > they are merely figments of imagination given life through Essence, and > therefore extinguishing one is not really like killing a living creature. If Uriel and his angels killed all the unicorns, and all the dragons, and all the faeries, right there they've committed Genocide three times. And given that Jordi and Blandine both claimed they slaughtered creatures (according to _The Marches_) I'm going to take the word of two Archangels who know Celestial Matters better than I on this. > An argument can also be made that these ethereal spirits _were_ harmful to > humanity and _did_ need to be wiped out. How directly responsible Uriel is > for the genocides on _Earth_ that occurred as an echo of his Crusade in the > Marches is not clear -- certainly a lot of pagans and ethereal offspring > got killed too, but did Uriel command that? In what way were the unicorns harmful? This isn't a rhetorical question -- I honestly want to know the IN past on this. Some creatures I could see as being harmful. Others I can't. > There is also the small point that in the Old Testament, God sanctioned > genocide several times. He also commanded His followers to do all sorts of > things to their enemies that us modern folks consider atrocious. Clearly > (if one uses the Bible for inspiration in In Nomine), human standards of > morality don't apply to God and His angels. I don't use the Bible as History in In Nomine. I have a good number of both non-Christian and non-Jewish Angels, going from the concept that Men wrote these books and were not privy to 'reality' in any of these cases. My working IN assumption on Genocide in Biblical Accounts is that Angels (or Demons) engineered them, and then spread the stories that they were God's Will. In the case of the Purity Crusade, Uriel declared that Those Creatures Not Made By God Must Be Eliminated. specifically to unify the divisive Archangels under a single standard and to "express his devotion to his Word" (according to the history in the _Angelic Player's Guide._) It could be said the second stated reason is innately selfish. To prove his Devotion to Purity, Uriel destroyed the things he believed were not Pure. A Hellish Justification. The first reason could be seen as selfless, except it also seems to be an unreasonable rationalization. The sort of thing a Balseraph could declare (and yes, I know Uriel was a Malakite). Clearly, many among the Archangels did not agree with Uriel's Crusade and would not be expected to (since he specifically planned to raid and raze Blandine's domain to get the ones there). By the overriding principle of In Nomine, Selfless to Selfish, Uriel is selfish. Let's put it in these terms, realizing this is purely for purposes of *my* campaign, and no one else's. If Uriel's acts were both sanctioned and good all the way up in Heaven, and he *hasn't* been chastized for them, then the Angels have been grossly deceived about who and what they're working for, and maybe Lucifer had a point after all. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:57:00 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Predestination and free will On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > Predestination really depends on how you define free will in In > Nomine. If God has already mapped out everything, then predestination > is the rule and free will is an illusion. Predestination and free will *are* compatible, it's just that it's really strange thinking about it. It's standard theology that all times are one with God, and if you buy that then by definition He knows the future. Have you ever written a story and had your characters (or at least a couple of them) become so real they wrote themselves, and if you made them do what best fit the plot instead of what the characters wanted to do, it felt like you were lying? Have you ever gone back and rewritten chunks of the story so that the past would make the characters want to do what fit the plot? I think that's as close as we can come to understanding it: God lets humans make their own choices, but He designed the world and controls the element of chance so that as many as possible of them will make good choices. Einsteinian physics suggests that we think of the universe as a four-dimensional object: three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. I sometimes think of God as a five-dimensional person looking from outside at a four-dimensional universe. For Him it's no harder to consider simultaneously what is happening now and what happened in World War II than it is to consider simultaneously what is happening in America and what is happening in Germany. (WW2 is close to now on a cosmic scale, but so is America close to Germany on a cosmic scale.) It's just looking at two different spots which are separated along a time axis instead of a space axis, much as for us it would be looking at two spots separated vertically instead of horizontally. Perhaps the separation in time is more important, but it makes it no harder to see two spots at once. As an analogy, let me knock everything down a couple of dimensions and use the classic weaver analogy. We're looking at a piece of multicolored fabric; this tapestry represents the universe. The physical laws God set in motion at the beginning of the world are black threads which go straight across except in a couple of spots where there's a sudden patch of gold thread in the fabric (God made a miracle which broke those laws.) The laws of chance are white threads which go where the weaver (God) wishes to put them. Free-willed beings are multicolored threads, the color representing the sort of person they've chosen to be and the location in the fabric representing the choices they've made. The weaver can't control those multicolored threads without turning them white, which would make a pretty plain tapestry. But the weaver can decide where to put in the white and black threads according to how the multicolored threads will react to them as well as where those threads themselves look good in the tapestry. In addition to all of the above, God is believed (by most theologicans and myself) to be omniscient. That's a really hard concept to use in an analogy, but you can come pretty close if you start by assuming that the weaver wove every single possible tapestry given the threads he had, and then chose to make the best possible tapestry. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 06:05:26 +0100 From: jue46@spckll.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de Subject: IN> ADV: CABLE DESCRAMBLER ...Now Only $7.00! To be removed from our mailing list please call toll free 888-446-5497 This is really cool! PREMIUM CHANNELS........Descrambled! EASY to assemble plans for only $7.00 ! YOU WILL BE WATCHING all your FAVORITE PAY STATIONS featuring MOVIES, SPORTS. Adult entertainment, and any other scrambled signal NEXT WEEK! You can EASILY assemble a cable descrambler in less than 30 minutes! You have probably seen many advertisments for similar plans......... BUT OURS are BETTER! 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Please allow 14 days for delivery. * For express service please include a self address stamped envelope with .66 postage added Thank You 2 12 ite ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:46:16 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Predestination and free will For my money, Predestination and Foreknowledge work like this: God made the map and all the places on the map, but it is humans who choose which places they are going to go to, and what route they are going to take to get there. That is Free Will, and nothing about that contradicts the point that God can see the whole map, all possible destinations, and, when he is looking, your marker that shows where you are and where you are headed [think of a tracer-bug for souls and a tracker unit that shows where all the bugs are and also reads the telemetry from the bugs about the condition and direction of the soul] -- this is God's Omniscience and Foresight. This help with reconciling this question any? Are there any AAs who think like this? [I don't really care to examine the thoughts, ideas, and beliefs of the DPs *g*]. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "it's a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milkbone underwear" Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:46:38 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa >You are mistaken. (Sorry 'bout that.) Geasa is the plural used in Shadowrun Ah-ha! thank you! I knew I knew Geasa from _somewhere_! That reminds me. Um... I have a humble request here. WOuld someone please inform me what a "hook" in someone is? I *thought* a Lilim gained a "hook" into someone once they'd sensed a person's Need. But, that's can't possibly be the only thing required, because then to track someone all a Lilim would need, so to speak, would be to sense a Need. Is a hook what a Lilim has when she's sensed a Need and fulfilled that Need, but hasn't yet called in the favor and extracted a Geas? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase in knowledge increase in sorrow." - Ecclesiastes 1:18 Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:56:15 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: IN> East of Nod Happy Birthday to me. I've made it a habit to write something each birthday and Christmas, and where relevant I post it. This one came later than usual, but I think it's good enough to post. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- East of Nod She traveled east, across the barren wastes. She was hungry, but she did not cry out. She was thirsty, but her pace did not waver. She was cold in her nakedness, but did not shiver. For to do these things would be to admit weakness, and she was a prideful and vain creature. She was Lilith, the first woman. And she was dying. Not from exposure, or from hunger, or even from thirst....but from the emptiness of her soul. A great, aching emptiness that tore at her spirit like the rocks at her feet. Paradise had been hers And so she hated. It was an easy enough thing to do, a cold comfort of the mind to accompany the cold winds of the eastern wastes. She hated Adam for his superiority, hated Eve for being her replacement. But greatest of all was the hate she harbored for God: for allowing Adam to treat her so, for acquiescing to his demands for a new mate, and worst of all, for not stopping her from leaving. She hated herself, too, but was too prideful to admit it. And that was why she was dying. "Lilith." The voice had seemed to both surround her and tickle her ear with its warm breath. She looked to see who had addressed her, alone and naked in the cold wastes of Nod. She tried to speak, but her mouth was dry and her throat was parched, and no sound could escape her cracked lips. "Lilith." The voice came again, this time from a point in front of her. And as she watched, an Angel of the Lord appeared before her in all his glory. His hair was black and luxurious, his eyes as blue as the rivers that ran through Eden. He was garbed in shimmering robes of a green more vibrant than the foliage of the Garden. He was barefoot, and where he walked grass grew, the earth turning fertile in each footprint. His wings sparkled like morning dew, and droplets fell from the tips of his feathers into small pools of the purest water. He smiled at her, and in that smile Lilith saw a radiance that rivaled the sun itself. He held out his hands to her, and cupped them, and they were filled with cool water. "Drink," he asked of her. She hesitated. "Drink," he said again, "that I might speak with you." And so she drank from his hands, and the water cooled her throat and easer her thirst, and did not diminish from his hands until she had drunk her fill. "What is your name?" she demanded of him. "I am but a servant of my Lord, and so, you may call me Eli." the angel responded."I am here because the Lord has not forgotten you, nor has he rejected you. I have come to bring you succor and peace." And Eli gestured about him, for the land had become a fertile oasis about him. Lilith shook her head fiercely. "I do not need your mercy, Eli. Neither do I need the Lord Eli clucked softly. "Lilith, Lilith.....you left of your own accord. The Lord did not cast you out, nor did he require such an act on your part. He simply allowed you to leave. The two are not synonymous." He shook his head and turned to regard the lake that was forming to his left. "That is something you will learn, given time." He turned back to her. "And I am here to make sure that you have that time, Lilith. It is a very important lesson. You could say it Lilith blinked at him, uncomprehending. "But that is a matter for another time," the angel continued. "For now, your survival is most important. Look, I have created a home for you: food to eat, water to drink, shelter from the elements. Your life will not be as easy as it was in the Garden, but it will be long and full. You will need to learn many things if you are to survive. Three of them I teach to you now." "First, you need clothing if you are to keep warm." With that, Eli removed his robes and wrapped them about Lilith. The green clothing shimmered, and shifted, and wrapped about her so perfectly that she could no longer tell where she ended and the clothing began. "Second, know that you are never without the Grace of God. If you were, you would have died here today." "What is the third thing?" she demanded, both angry and grateful for the charity. "Tell me this, angel, that I might be done with you and left in peace again!" "The third thing," Eli said, smiling as he faded away, "is that you owe me a Favor for this. And one day, I will come to collect it in full. So be not proud and cast away what I have given you, for you will one day repay my service, measure for measure. So you might as well make use of it." And Lilith pondered this, by the shores of the newly-made sea. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:17:14 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Chains on Malakim (Re: Why on earth can't Malakim fall?) [Malakim in Chains] >However, there is something viscerally scary about the idea of that. >The idea of enslaving yourself to a vow for all eternity and having >that pledge symbolized by some kind of chain upon one's form -- a >physical representation, to a Malakite, of voluntarily giving up >their free will in that area. Of submitting to God's Will. (And in >return, they don't Fall.) Becoming slaves to the Divine, perhaps... >or perhaps not. Having chained themselves to the divine, they cannot fall. Even if the Earth were to fall from beneath them, they would not fall. They have chains, you see, holding them up. But each chain carries with it a weight. Each chain slows the Malakite down, limits his freedom, his choices, his options. This is how the Malakite IS truely the opposite to the Lilim just as the Ofanite is to the Calabite and the Seraph to the Balseraph. A Malakite LOVES his Honor, his Honor made real in its chains, its limitations, its denial of true freedom. Lilim despise the loss of freedom, the Malakim cherish it as the loss of Personal freedom represents a most selfless act, the act of existing only for a higher purpose. The Malakite has given up a portion of its freedom, its self, its choice, to God: it *will* serve God, it cannot FAIL to serve God else it simply cease to be (rather than Fall). In return for this denial of personal freedom, God grants the Malakite pardon from the sting of Corporeal death. God grants the Malakite the right to be cruel and heartless, evil almost to the point of becoming God's shadow yet ... not ... becoming ... demonic, not truly demonic. In order to fights its own demons, God had to forge something not unlike them, a tool to cut out theevil, a darkness to fight the Lightbringer. They are God's wrath, kept chained like dogs, with good reason. The Dogs of War. >The themes of submission -- to someone else, to a higher power, to >a lower force, from love, from fear, with dignity, with shame, >physically, emotionally, spiritually, in name only -- are very powerful. >The symbols of it -- cuffs, chains, collars -- are equally powerful. Any Lilim can tell you that, as can any Malakite, surely. The Lilim are described as sensual, the Malakim are without humor, dark and deadly serious. The Malakim exist only for their abstract honor, an external code. The Lilim exist only for themselves and their own pleasures. >I was, therefore, planning to ask SJ if this would be a better part >of the Malakite description for 2nd Ed than the current "shadowy >humanoid form," which never really symbolized, to *me*, at least, >the deadly dark glory of them. (And besides, they're never drawn >that way. Foo.) Envision a dark, shadowy humanoid form from which countless chains hang, extending out into the symphony, vanishing from sight as they extend too far from the fierce creature they bind. The chains are silent, though occasionally one will whisper something to you, something that you would swear only God could know. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death.... Whoever strikes father or mother shall be put to death. Whoever kidnaps a person, whether that person has been sold or is still held in possession, shall be put to death. Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death." - Exodus 21:12-17 Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:24:33 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> The Purity Crusade Could we please let this subject rest for at least a couple months more? I still haven't recovered from last time... :-/ The (quite extensive and intense) discussion is available in the archives (I suppose). Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 03:47:45 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Purity Crusade At 9:24 AM +0100 3/21/99, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > Could we please let this subject rest for at least a couple months more? I > still haven't recovered from last time... :-/ > > The (quite extensive and intense) discussion is available in the archives > (I suppose). Apologies for bringing up a painful subject. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:19:10 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa Perry Lloyd wrote on 21 March 1999 06:53 >Is a hook what a Lilim has when she's sensed a Need and fulfilled that >Need, but hasn't yet called in the favor and extracted a Geas? IIR(and interpret)C Yes. Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:50:13 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Oh God, not the Uriel debate again On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > In what way were the unicorns harmful? This isn't a rhetorical > question -- I honestly want to know the IN past on this. Some > creatures I could see as being harmful. Others I can't. Unicorns were originally pagan symbols of strength and virility. The idea that they were symbols of Christ happened well after AD 745. Uriel would have hunted them down because they encouraged humanity to look to sources other than God for those qualities. (They were also casual killers at times.) > In the case of the Purity Crusade, Uriel declared that Those > Creatures Not Made By God Must Be Eliminated. specifically to unify > the divisive Archangels under a single standard and to "express his > devotion to his Word" (according to the history in the _Angelic > Player's Guide._) It could be said the second stated reason is > innately selfish. No, not really. Archangels act from the perspective of their Words, because they *are* their Words. Uriel acted to express his devotion to his Word because he had no choice. He *is* Purity, and could not concieve of any other way to behave than according to his Word. > To prove his Devotion to Purity, Uriel destroyed the things he believed > were not Pure. A Hellish Justification. The counter-argument is that, being both a Malakite and the Word of Purity, he *knew* what was not Pure. Granted, his approach seems a little harsh to us. However, there isevidence that extermination was never his goal. He allowed entire pantheons to withdraw to the Marches unmolested, on their oaths that they would stay there and not meddle with humanity any more. > Let's put it in these terms, realizing this is purely for purposes of > *my* campaign, and no one else's. If Uriel's acts were both > sanctioned and good all the way up in Heaven, and he *hasn't* been > chastized for them, then the Angels have been grossly deceived about > who and what they're working for, and maybe Lucifer had a point after > all. IMC, Uriel's actions were *necessary*. However, it could have been done differently. (I've actually thought about how the Crusade would have gone had other Archangels decided to do it instead.) Rather than hash this out again, I'd recommend going to the In Nomine home page and searching the archives for "Uriel" and "Purification Crusade". this subject has been debated at least three times in the past two years, and there's a lot of information available there. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant Who agrees with David Edelstein [sic?] about Uriel - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:25:45 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Oannes OANNES, ARCHANGEL OF THE WATERS "The world is Water; the giver of life…" Oannes, an Elohite, is one of the oldest of the Archangels. He likes to think of himself as the father of life in that water is the source of life. It is the giver of life, the sustainer. Oannes reflects the qualities of his element much like Janus with whom he is strongly allied. He is the bringer of the rains, worshipped by many non-western cultures as the spirit of fertility and the bringer of the harvest. As water cleanses, so Oannes brings a rain of redemption. Holy water. Oannes is one of the most resourceful of the host; teaching humans how to sail and irrigate their land. A saver of lives he brings relief from drought. Oannes represents water as life. But even the flow of the oceans has it's anger, for water can destroy just as easily. In this respect, Oannes represents the power of water as a primal force. When God judged the earth sinful, it was Oannes who brought forth the Flood. But likewise it was Oannes who ended the deluge and carried Noah safely to mount Ararat*. The Archangel of the Waters is merciful, the anger of his tide is a Holy one, and it cleanses the land of sin and washes away the wicked. And speaking of tides, Oannes signifies the power and mystery of the tides; keeper of the secrets locked within the lunar phases that govern the waters. In this aspect Oannes may take on a female aspect, corporeally; pale and enchanting whose mood is as hypnotic and beguiling as the waves themselves, bringing strange solace to human ears; a singer of lullabies. She is the secret of Aphrodite's pool that keeps her beautiful. In the beginning, even before Light, there was water, and, with the increasing threat of global warming, there may yet be water. Without it there can be no life. Oannes one weakness may be his pride in the power of water. It has caused him conflict with Jordi where before the pair where very close. Now, Oannes favours humans over the animals of the sea. He sees that as Jordi's domain and, while he certainly looks after those native to his territory, he holds no favour; to him a whaler sailing the seas is no different than the whale it hunts. All are nurtures by the Waters. But it is really Oannes love of humans, who learned to worship and venerate the rains and the seas as the great providers, that upsets Jordi who feels that 'civilisation' is the great enemy of the primitive spirit. Jordi himself fears that his one time friend has lost his perspective. As humanity learned the arts of civilisation, Oannes took pride in the fact that it was he who taught them a great deal of it. Without their seafaring skills, there would be very little trade, or cross-cultural contact. Now human live in a world where much is shared on a daily basis thanks to Oannes' teachings. Gabriel also dislikes Oannes for the simplicity of their opposing words. Water is the antithesis of Fire. Gabriel sees Oannes as cool and distant (like all Elohim), unprepared and uninspired for the War and it's harsher realities. For his part, Oannes thinks Gabriel unstable, unpredictable and therefore unreliable. Like fire she can 'break out' at any moment, where Water pacifies and purifies. Their distrust is mutual. Before he was taken into the presence of God, Oannes was a great admirer of Uriel. In fact, since his departure, Oannes has taken the 'purification' aspect of his word a great deal more literally. When he can he helps Uriel's former servants - including Laurence - offering them the comfort and shelter of the Waters. Many times in the past, demons have found themselves blocked by a mysterious 'act of God'. However, Oannes, like Blandine, could not condone Uriel's Purification Crusade Oannes thought this a great tragedy and a grave error of judgement on the part of Uriel. At the time he could not bring himself to talk with Uriel for fear of ending their friendship, such was Uriel's zeal. Now he honours Purity as best he can. His relationship with Blandine is one of interest, Oannes' 'lunar' aspect ties closely in with Blandine as Archangel of Dreams. They maintain a comfortable friendship, but often keep to themselves. Similarly, Oannes, as bringer of the rains, means that he finds favour with Novalis. To the rest of the Host he is largely neutral. DISSONANCE Thos who serve Oannes must wash or bathe at least once every 24 hours. Failure to do so brings not only a note of dissonance but may impede their daily intake of natural essence. The player must make an extra Dissonance roll in order to claim the daily point of essence at sunrise if he breaks his Archangel's tenet. If he rolls 666 he instantly acquires the Celestial Discord of Need. This manifests as a compulsion to wash and bathe oneself (which is the only way for the character to gain his essence naturally). This discord will not please Oannes a great deal, but he can usually be persuaded (more through deed than word) to remove it. Note this may make it tough on Kyriotates with multiple hosts over a 24-hour period. It is also considered bad form, although not dissonant, among servitors of the Waters, to drink anything other than water. CHOIR ATTUNEMENTS Seraphim The Divine Water Serpents have the ability to accurately perceive the purity and quality of any body of water (GM should modify the resonance roll according to the size of the body of water, for obvious reasons). This also allows him to divine just what it contains (trace elements, poisons, submarines). Cherubim The Guardians of the Deep can attune themselves to any body of water for free (just bear in mind that if you attune yourself to the Atlantic and an oil tanker spills its load in the ocean - you will suffer!). Ofanim The wheels, or perhaps 'Rudders' can move throughout water in celestial form as per his resonance - except he need not make a roll. Instead just use the dice to determine the chance of intervention and the Check Digit. Elohim The Watery Powers can observe a sample of water and know where it has been and what was happening to it. This requires a simple resonance roll; the GM can use the Check Digit to divine the results, perhaps using the artefact identification chart as a guideline. Malakim The Warriors of the Waters can bring down a divine deluge of their own. Though it may not last 40 days and 40 nights, they need only make a successful resonance roll to invoke a might downpour, the severity of which is determined by the Check Digit. The duration of the rain is equivalent to the Check Digit times Celestial Forces in Hours, but the Malakite can cause it to stop at any point with a point of essence. Kyriotates The Dominations of the depths can create a vessel put of water (providing there is a sufficient supply at hand). Like David's Kyriotate attunement, these must be brought and treated as human/animal vessels. However, they can only be used in a watery medium; there they will allow the angel complete freedom as if her were native to that environment. Immersed, these vessels may take on anyappearance, and may shift that appearance as desired, but they do look separate form the water itself and will be noticeable to anypone paying attention, even if they don't know what they are seeing. They have a mercurial, quicksilver appearance. Elder servants of Oannes fondly remember a time when both Jordi and Oannes were closer and Jordi allowed Oannes' Kyriotates to create marine animal vessels instead. Since their relationship deteriorated, Oannes chooses not to do this anymore, he knows Jordi will not allow this. In fact, any Kyriotate's of the Waters caught with marine vessels by a servant of Jordi are to be considered hostile - Jordi looks upon this as a great insult. Mercurians With a successful resonance roll can detect any source of water not immediately perceptible to normal sense. This is taught o those Friends of the Waters who help tribes and cultures afflicted by droughts. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS Swell This allows the angel to dramatically increase the size of any body of water. Each point of essence spent can increase the size (in all dimensions, although still obeying natural laws) by double. This can be used on pouring rain to increase the strength of the rain accordingly. Parting the waves With this the angel may open a channel through a body of water. The channel lasts for a number of minutes equal to the Essence expended times the character's Celestial Forces. It will also extend to a length equal to that same degree times 50 meters. For instance, by spending 2 essence, an angel with 3 Celestial Forces can create a channel up to 150m long tat can last for up to 6 minutes. The player can set the parameters before spending the essence, but once committed he cannot change them. DISTINCTIONS Vassal of the Waters The angel may communicate underwater to any other angel or human (again not fish, who wouldn't understand - thanks to Jordi). Friend of the Parched Earth The angel always knows when it is going to rain…either naturally or by design! Master of the Waves The angel can always divine the presence of bad weather at sea. When a storm or such is about to form he will get fair warning. BASIC RITES · Stand on a beach during a storm · Swim in the sea during a full moon · Pilot the maiden voyage of a new ship RELATIONS Allied: Janus Associated: Blandine, Novalis Hostile: Gabriel, Jordi CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 3 INVOCATION MODIFIERS 1. Immersed in water 2. A fresh spring 3. A Baptism 4. The design for a new ship 5. An iceberg 6. Forty days and forty nights worth of rain, exactly "When the waters rose in the darkness, in the wake of the endless flood It flowed into our memory, it flowed into our blood" - - Neil Peart, 'High Water' Martin PS Now you're gonna tell me someone's already done this, but here's my contribution to the Superiors list (hey you're not a member of this list until you make one up!) * Hey I wasn't there, I don't know! Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1169 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.