From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 23 14:06:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11490 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:06:30 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA26568 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:06:34 -0600 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:06:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199903232006.OAA26568@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1173 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 23 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1173 In this digest: IN> Going to the Celestial Plane Re: IN> Archives IN> Second Edition Re: IN> Question: This list and Pyramid Re: IN> Archives Re: IN> Archives Re: IN> Going to the Celestial Plane Re: IN> Second Edition Re: IN> Archives Re: IN> Discussion on the list Re: IN> Discussion on the list IN> purity crusade stuff IN> kyrios suck! IN> kyrios suck! Re: IN> Discussion on the list IN> recent archive ideas Re: IN> kyrios suck! Re: IN> Discussion on the list IN> Vephar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:36:52 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Going to the Celestial Plane Can a celestial be dragged up/down a tether against their will? jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:02:16 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Archives > The problem may not be the certain cliquishness on this list (of which > there is much), and it may not even be that people keep bringing up their > pet topics. It might simply be, like Amber Diceless, there is a pretty > slim number of topics and after three years, the list has simply exhausted > them. [How many times can you talk about if Brand is really alive > anyway? Same problem.] The constant ending of threads by whipping out > the Heavy Mallet of Canon has stifled a good many discussions: everything > from Malakim and Lilim on to the roles of various demons. This archive is > going to just exasperate the problem --- now instead of even letting new > ideas seep in through the old threads, people will post to the new archive > and dismisss new people with a wave of the hand when their old questions > raise their weary heads. I'm going to respond to my own message, because I'm lame and I forgot a major point. It's been a "mortgage happy day", and stuff is just trickling out my ears. I'm gonna get flamed for this, too. :) Honesty pays its price. Here's the point: much like Amber Diceless, In Nomine is having the same threads over and over again because there's no new material in which to draw questions and comments and conversation _from_. In reality, let's look at how much of large bodies of new material are really there which can readily contribute _on a large scale_ to the overall campaign world, and more importantly, to discussions on this particular mailing list: Core Book - Lots and lots of world information Revelations Cycle: Night Music - Humans, Saints, Undead Marches - Sorcerers, Ethereals Heaven and Hell - Very basic H&H, Limbo Fall of the Malakim - Nothing Essential (A little bright lilim) Final Trumpet - Nothing Players Guides: Angelic Players Guide - Bugs, mostly Infernal Players Guide - Nothing Corporeal Players Guide - Nothing (unpublished) Libers: Liber Reliquarium - Nothing Liber Canticorum - Nothing Liber Casterellum - Nothing Liber Servitorum - Roles (but unpublished) Liber Locurum - Nothing (unpublished) The ones with nothing, they aren't bad buys, and the libers are quite good - but they expand on the game world without essentially adding any new facts to the universe from which GMs and other crazy people can latch on and expand for themselves. Of the vast majority of the pages of the Songbook which are made up with new Songs, only two or three have come under debate, and almost none of the expanded rules. Almost nothing from the Tetherbook has come up for debate except for people either disagreeing with the rules or someone else pointing out that "this is how canon works". If people wish to disagree, I invite them to not only look at the digests, but please, look at the nature and the dates on INC submissions in the last three months. Busy I might be, but I do still observe. Like Amber, there's basically one main sourcebook (the core book) some added material, and undeniable, unchangeable, written into stone tablets canon. And this doesn't give much in the way of latitude. What the Libers and the Players Guides do is head conversations off at the pass, and answer questions definitely or mark others as "Undiscussable" -- better known as "Canon Doubt and Uncertaintly". So conveniently, every time someone wishes to discuss, say, the nature of tethers (once a lively topic) people can wave their hand at that book and say "But it's been explained. Nothing left to discuss." So the mailing list is, in essence, dying because of the nature of the game and the approach to the material. It's easier to simply shut people up then open up the universe. This is a problem via design. I know it makes people happy, but it doesn't exactly work for lively discussion topics, nor does it preserve the long running existence of the line (which will exist because it's from a major game publisher who receives revenue from other sources, so no one has to worry). The threads go around and around because there is nothing left to discuss, and those topics which are fun and interesting have been conveniently answerwed by rules elsewhere in a manner that doesn't leave any wiggle room. The world hasn't exactly been opened up: do we know ANYTHING really about Hell and how it works and why it works? The Marches? Where everything is laid out in Heaven? Do we know what happened during the Fall? Do we know anything about renegades? No, we don't. Because nothing has been expanded upon. And that's the essential problem. We're all still waiting for a sourcebook with _new material_, all new, all brand new, and not just STUFF for a campaign, to be released. And have since Heaven and Hell. It would be amazing the conversation if people had something to talk about, instead of just answers. I remembered saying this in a far less PC manner over a year ago, and to give a nod to Patrick, saying "fuck" alot. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:00:50 -0800 From: Daiv Barr Subject: IN> Second Edition Let us assume, that at some point, with sufficient advances in genetic engineering, it will someday be feasible to "breed" a pig which can fly. Let us also assume that it is possible that someday a Second edition of IN Nomine may be published. (Our beloved and esteemed Line Editor /List Admin/ AA / DP has mentioned this concept in passing on occasion.) Given that; what would we want it to have, or not to have? Things i want from a second edition. First off.. You have Break away bindings? Use it. Art; I like Dan Smith, I enjoy his work. But a variety of artists would not, I think, be a bad thing. Organize. Though I appreciate the effort that went into making a Good Index (hey, white wolf, take a lesson.) I thinks the presentation of the information needs work. (of curse, I am a Instructional Designer, and a reference geek, so I think that all rpg books should be organized as reference sources. )) The combat system has gotten enough criticism that I dont' need to add to it. Put an outline of character creation process (a la angelic/demonic players guide) Mistakes that I really want to see avoided. Make it Independent. I bought shadowrun third edition. then I found that it does not work without a clear and well developed understanding of second edition (or else it was completely incomprehensible; take your pick). Do not change the mechanics in a way that invalidates all the supplements that you have releases to date. This is a really tricky problem. As far as I can tell, this would be the biggest tripping point for a second edition. If you don't render major changes in the game, what is the point of a second edition? If you do, what happens to the first edition supplements? personally, I do not have a answer for that one. and so I open the floor... What else do we want in this flying pig? reply to my home address; daiv@cruzio.com Daiv Barr My mother once said that boy is stranger than a three toed barking frog be well, my beloved friends. be loved. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:11:37 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Question: This list and Pyramid Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 5:14 PM -0500 3/22/99, EDG wrote: > >Okay, time for a list-mechanics question which I've never seen an answer > >to. > > > >What is official policy regarding this list and Pyramid? If I were to > >submit something to the list and to Pyramid at once, would this be > >violating regulations I'm not aware of? > > > This is what I *belive* to be true, but I'm not the editor of > Pyramid. > > I think it would be considered to have used up your first-publication > rights, which might strongly affect both the amount you could get > for it, and if you could sell it to Scott at all. > > This is exactly the tack I've heard him take before. If it's been substantially presented already, either on a mailing list, on the web, etc. then it's already been published. What's really scary is how good some people's throwaway ideas are (like Ken Hite). He makes his money off of writing, but he's not afraid to toss good ideas like rose petals whereever he goes. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:53:04 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Archives Emily Dresner wrote: > >> IOW, as with many things, it could be a useful time-saver (and >> finger-saver), or it could stifle discussions, depending on how >> it were done. > >Likely stifle discussions, I would say, because every time the topic >rears its heads, there will be five people who will say "go read this >web page" in disgust. While I am very half and half about this, >there's a certain part of me which is repulsed and driven to occasional >long bouts of silence by the constant screaming of "It's not canon!" on a >fan based mailing list (where canon is, in reality, hardly an issue >except in the context of questions looking for clarification), and >this is just going to exasperate the problem. The other half welcomes new >topics, and would want any way to open the list up to such. Yes -- FAQs are only useful when there is genuine consensus. The running arguments continue because there *isn't* consensus about them. That, and because they interest the newbies -- if you tell the newbies not to talk about everything that interest them, then what profit is there for them to subscribe? Sure, there will be some repetition, but if a certain topic bores you, killfile it. It's easy, and even free mailreaders support the function. If that's too hard, subscribe to the digest and use page-down to skip messages you don't care for. There's no law that says you have to read and comment on every thread in the list, after all. This whole thing is a solution in search of a problem, imo. Of course, if you want to do it anyway, go ahead -- I'm not the game police, and I don't care how you spend your free time. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:49:11 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Archives At 11:26 AM 3/23/99 -0500, Emily Dresner wrote: >The problem may not be the certain cliquishness on this list (of which >there is much), and it may not even be that people keep bringing up their >pet topics. It might simply be, like Amber Diceless, there is a pretty >slim number of topics and after three years, the list has simply exhausted >them. [How many times can you talk about if Brand is really alive >anyway? Same problem.] The constant ending of threads by whipping out >the Heavy Mallet of Canon has stifled a good many discussions: everything >from Malakim and Lilim on to the roles of various demons. This archive is >going to just exasperate the problem --- now instead of even letting new >ideas seep in through the old threads, people will post to the new archive >and dismisss new people with a wave of the hand when their old questions >raise their weary heads. > >Is it a good idea? I don't know, I don't think so. I don't like anything >which basically screws the new guy. Yes, summaries are nice. No, >crutches are not. Like the #startrek channel, this will become like a >sort of Kafkaian mail list where the topic is clearly In Nomine but In >Nomine is the forbidden topic because it has, essentially, been "done to >death." > >But not my problem, ya know? > >- Em > > Well, obviously Brand is still -- (Sean stops as a bright red dot runs up his chest to settle on his forehead. Time to change topics.) Uh, I mean, the Enterprise D vs the original Death Star -- (Poor choice. Sean's head explodes. The blood is used for finger painting by the assassin. Even years later, one wall is stained with six letters...) FIRRIB Sean (Yhis isn't a political position. This is just a bad Usenet joke.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:32:01 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Going to the Celestial Plane At 4:36 PM +0000 3/23/99, Hart, Joanna wrote: >Can a celestial be dragged up/down a tether against their will? If you're *in* a Tether, the only place you can ascend to is the Tether's other end... Otherwise, it probably requires a relic (like a Force Catcher or Will Shackle), or some sort of Song, or the will of a Superior. (And then there's the ever-popular Celestial Charm combined with Fast-Talk, or Geases, or resonances.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:50:01 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Second Edition On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 09:00:50AM -0800, Daiv Barr wrote: > The combat system has gotten enough criticism that I dont' need to > add to it. Ah, but is ther an adequate replacement? > Make it Independent. I bought shadowrun third edition. then I found > that it does not work without a clear and well developed understanding of > second edition (or else it was completely incomprehensible; take your pick). This may be off-topic, but I disagree. I understood the mechanics in 3rd ED, quite well, and I don't think I had a well developed understanding of the 2nd edition. (I'd read it through once, but that's it.) > Do not change the mechanics in a way that invalidates all the > supplements that you have releases to date. This is a really tricky problem. > As far as I can tell, this would be the biggest tripping point for a second > edition. If you don't render major changes in the game, what is the point of > a second edition? If you do, what happens to the first edition supplements? > personally, I do not have a answer for that one. This is the core issue. There are a number of problems with the "humans usually have five forces" idea, especially with the implication that people who are physically strong, intelligent, perceptive and willful must have psychic/magical potential. Forces aren't a bad idea for Celestials, for humans they're dodgy, but to remove them would be to rip out a massive chunk of the background. As for other bits... The points for character creation are too low, IMO. A White Wolf character would have a greater number of skills, each of those skills more broadly defined, in characters who are a hell of a lot younger (usually), in a system where skills are more important (IMO). With the allocation as it stands, making a munchie character is trivial. Making someone who has a reasonable group of skills in one area, and some skills outside that area, is nigh impossible. And I'm talking about having Skill/4s for primary skills, and a smattering of Skill/1s and Skill/2s outside. In relation to that idea, guidelines for how much points you should have at a certain age would take, at most, half a page, and the character point costs could be tweaked to match. Advancement is so fast in In Nomine that 36 points is almost unjustifiable. It is mentioned at various points that memories fade. Perhaps a limit should be set to the number of skills a character can have? It isn't enough to assert that Celestials learn differently from humans without fixing it in the mechanics. If it's not in the mechanics, I can't assume it's there in the gameworld. Some attunements have to be fixed. The Balseraph of Technology attunement is ludicrous. Others, like Lilim of Death or Calabite of the Media, don't actually exist (and a Lilim of Death attunement would be trivial to design). The rules for Limbo need to be included, and a clear and coherent writeup of the basics of the Marches mechanics. They're too important not to have in the main rulebook. And maybe the dissonance condition for Blandine's Servitors should be reviewed in the light of the usefulness of, eg, the Celestial Song of Attraction. Forbidding the use of Songs with apparent effects might be better. Less of the stereotypes. I am one of those who doesn't want to hear that Malakim are humourless, Seraphim have long fingers, and Habbalah wear clothes which expose their midriffs. It's that kind of thing which turns people off the game, and justifiably so, as they can't all be expected to join the list and enjoy the interesting topics of discussion. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I have said that the Elohim are perilous. I have not said that they desire hurt to any life, or to the Earth. But in their own tales they are portrayed as the bastion of the last truth, and that truth they preserve in ways which baffle all that behold them." The One Tree, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:14:44 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Archives >And that's the essential problem. We're all still waiting for a >sourcebook with _new material_, all new, all brand new, and not just STUFF >for a campaign, to be released. And have since Heaven and Hell. It would >be amazing the conversation if people had something to talk about, >instead of just answers. > >I remembered saying this in a far less PC manner over a year ago, and to >give a nod to Patrick, saying "fuck" alot. :) > I recently picked up that _Dictionary of Angels_ that others on this list had recommended. And also recommend it -- it's *chock* full of stuff. A bunch of it doesn't involve major required rewrites of Canon, and so it gives me hope for my future Pyramid writing, for example. But tons of it could also be adapted into completely *new* stuff. I saw four different types of Nephallim in there -- a Nephallim sourcebook could certainly be a workable project. There are tons of minor choir which could be created. And Superiors. Many many Superiors. We've had reference (and seen on this list) a *lot* of Minor Superiors. We should be seeing a lot more of them, I think. And reasons and rules for *why* one Superior is Minor and another is major. It's been long enough since the first book came out that I think it's time we start seeing Canon on the Grigori themselves. I'd like to see historical work with Historical Superiors. And, while I'm wishing, I'd like a pony. I'm with Em -- let's get some pine scented freshness going. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:52:31 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Discussion on the list On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Emily Dresner wrote: > The threads go around and around because there is nothing left to discuss, > and those topics which are fun and interesting have been conveniently > answerwed by rules elsewhere in a manner that doesn't leave any wiggle > room. This is a problem for rules discussions, mostly, which is something I personally don't care a whit for. (That's the expression, isn't? What's a "whit" anyway? Shoulda gone with iota instead... not that I know what iota is either, but at least there's a parallell expression in Swedish... Digressing? I suppose I am.) I think the main problem with discussions here is that the IN world isn't defined -enough-. There are -huge- and hugely important areas of the background that have been stated as being Off Limits (CDaU), which means the only discussions we can have about them are "I do it this way in my campaign, isn't it cool?" "Yeah, that's cool, but -I- do it -this- way". IMO, it gets a bit tedious over time. I could say that "IMC Jesus was actually a Kyriotate who became crazy when he possessed Gabriel's and Mary's love-child", and it would be utterly pointless except as, at best, vaguely interesting and/or comic anecdotes. We can't really discuss how free will works in the game, or whether Janus and Valefor are the same being, or what all that business about Jesus really meant, or -anything- that's really important to the background of the game in any meaningful manner, because the creators have shot all those topics dead, put them in big, black body-bags and put huge, neon-green tags on them saying "Canon Doubt and Uncertainty! Don't bother us about it, make up your own stuff!" In short, the discussions we can have doesn't involve enough common ground to be meaningful to more than a couple of people at a time, with a few exceptions that show up again and again and again because there is enough information that we have some common ground (the Purity Crusade being the prime example). Discussion the nature of Jesus in the game isn't meaningful simply because there is nothing to go on. Okay, I'll shut up now. Anders Gabrielsson, who might have caught Dresnerian Rantism. :) anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:24:23 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Discussion on the list > IMO, it gets a bit tedious over time. I could say that "IMC Jesus was > actually a Kyriotate who became crazy when he possessed Gabriel's and > Mary's love-child", and it would be utterly pointless except as, at best, > vaguely interesting and/or comic anecdotes. Which is responded to, in kind, with "It's not canon" or "It's canon doubt and uncertaintly". This has a disturbing tendancy to kill the thread. I myself cannot venture out theories about Jesus Christ because I'll be smacked down and sent to my room as fast as the message appears on the List. Which is why there aren't any... and my room is a real pit. I'm such a slob. My Dad calls me "a house pig". *sigh* > Anders Gabrielsson, who might have caught Dresnerian Rantism. :) It's not always a bad thing to be honest, btw. I mean, I know alot of people would really prefer that I stood on a box and announced that In Nomine was "great and wonderful and perfect" and gave my undying worship. Unfortunately... has anyone read the Dilbert book where Scott Adams talks about extreme Engineering Honesty? It's actually extremely true, oddly enough. We sort of keep the world running, so going around with false smiles on our faces and claiming everything works for the sake of emotional feelings just doesn't sit well --- I mean, if the entire network is crashing and 1000 people can no longer get medical treatment, what good is an engineer who announces that the network is well built and works smoothly all the time? [Except in Management? :) ] Same principle. It could be why Elohim are seen as engineers. Honesty is an amazingly unpleasant and ugly thing, and no one, especially gamers, ever want to hear it. But really, it's just my engineering hat, nothing more, nothing less. I'm programmed to find design flaws and expose them in some vain, frantic, frustrated, useless, undying hope that the problem will be fixed, if not by me, then by someone out there in the world. If I wanted to attack people personally, as I tend to say, I usually say "yo mama". I extremely rarely name names. So the question is... do you want worship or do you want the truth? Unfortunately, and really sadly, most people want the former, and I'm wired to give the latter. It's human nature, but *shrug*. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:35:54 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> purity crusade stuff Well, here's my take on the Purity Crsuade… It's a cheesy attempt to explain why there aren't dragons any more…the usual modern day supernatural rpg sort of thing. 'once upon a time there was magic…' ~g~ It may well have done Blandine a favour. In this jaded age of ours, our dreams are more important than ever. Legends and myths are an integral part of these dreams, by killing them Uriel made, if you like, 'martyrs' out of them. At the time they would be a normal part of life, it's oinlt now that we seem them as 'fantastic' remember. If that makes any sense. What would we dream about today (perhaps people like roleplayers more than anyone else!) If these creatures had survived and become as ordinary as your dog or cat. I wonder what would have happened if the situation had been reversed…(waves hands and wobbles about)? "just look at it this way, a river of space, a ripple of time... like a burial" Thomas Dolby Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:36:41 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> kyrios suck! Earl: "- Heaven would have no access to mortal bodies or multiple vessels." I find myself rapidly becoming disenchanted with Kyriotates. Possessing people doesn't strike me as being particular divine. It's hardly discreet. Why does Heaven need to posess people? That's scarifying! "just look at it this way, a river of space, a ripple of time... like a burial" Thomas Dolby Martin Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:37:45 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> kyrios suck! Earl: "Me, too. I've often said that I thought folk like the Three Musketeers, James Bond," A day in the life of 00Malakim… Walks into the office to await a briefing from M "Ooh James," said Moneypenny "Get over your futile infatuation mortal, my work is far more important than any petty, ignoble desires of the flesh!" "Get in here 007" James walks through the double doors (without opening them) "Ah, M, sat behind your desk making deals with the enemy (i.e. the ruskies) you have no honour. No I will NOT work the enemy!" a few hours later James is in bed with DR X's wife after jacuzzi-ing with her and her many different wigs. "The depths to which you sink mortal know no bounds!" "Ah but you love them nonetheless!" James pauses. "I will not sully my honour with a lie. Yes!" "Ooh James!" Martin "por que conquistador" Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:40:06 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Discussion on the list - -----Original Message----- From: Emily Dresner >Unfortunately, and really sadly, most people want the former, and I'm >wired to give the latter. It's human nature, but *shrug*. > Em, Em, Em. Where do you get this from? I actually think most people are quite happy to hear the truth, or at least to hear lots of different opinions about it, especially if the opinions are emotively or colourfully phrased. It's all to do with playing to the crowd, y'see :) jo (We had a memo round from senior management the other day, requesting that engineers not talk to sales people or customers. Apparently engineers want to actually help customers solve their problems, to the extent of admitting when they've found problems with the product and letting them know when we've fixed it, but 'this is not how sales people work') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:40:30 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> recent archive ideas Steve: "Restrictions: I'm looking for stuff that is purely canon, with no IMHO's or IMC's. If Beth has an opinion, honour it, and accept that if she contradicts your writing, you lose." I don't want to lose, because I don't want to compete with people. I contribute to the list because I want to share ideas - good or bad - nothing and no one's perfect regardless of whether they speak 'officially'. Let this list stay as a forum for whatever IN topic people with to discuss. If said topic is tired and boring then don't respond - it will then fade away) or indeed (politely point them to the FAQ). But no one wants to compete. Wel all know that if it's not canon it's not official! Let people discuss IN on the IN list. It's only email after all; bits and bytes! Jo: "How can you solicit opinion-type articles without allowing people to express opinions, unless you get canon-meisters to write them all?" Right, and then they would not be opinion. Canon is not an opinion is it! Ultimately if you write a game background that leaves gaping holes as issues of provocative speculation then what else can you expect! Ramesh: "Yeah, but it would also be cool if the main arguments were stored as Steve is suggesting, sure they are already stored, but not as accessible as this idea sounds. It would help debates progress rather than going over the same points over and over again." As Whistling says, it is a real turn off when people rebuff you by saying look elsewhere, or ask something else because we've done this before. The list should be prepared to accept that there would always be perennial questions that are always going to be asked! Bear in mind that you don't have to reply to every post ever of course! If this turns into a serious topic, then it would suggest to me that there is something wrong with this list! No offence intended here. Steve: "Easy. There's a huge difference between convincing opinion…and campaign notes" Are you sure? We are dealing with CdaU - in other words material tat is being left out by the writers. If you don't want people to submit opinions from their own game - i.e. no IMC - then you are defeating your own idea. "I don't mind people wanting to open old cans. I object to them not having the resources to _know_ that they're opening old cans, and I don't think that "read the entire archive, will you?" is a reasonable suggestion any longer. It's big." Why should people even be bothered if someone asks an old question? but I agree that it's reasonable to request people check out the FAQ, or at least politely point out that FAQ'a are a part of email life, if they are new to the net. And I agree the archive is too big to browse effectively never mind download and read! Ramesh: "I thought one of the points of Steve's (please correct me if I'm worong Steve) idea was that you wouldn't have to look in the archives. The "articles" would be more acessable than the archives, and you wouldn't have to back very long into the past." Yeah, but in time even this idea will go the same way. No just let the list remain open to who and whatever! Steve: "Now begins the bowing and scraping, the physical forms of apology." Just make sure you didn't learn 'physical apology' frtom Captain Kirk!! ~LOL~ Em: "Stuff is selected from the list and submitted by Other Mysterious Personages. :)" You mean Euro-MP's?? Weird! Btw, thanks to those who liked my Oannes writeup - it brings a warm glow to my blackened heart. Next on the list is Vephar, whose name I SO love! Martin "we will pay the price, but we will not count the cost..." Martin Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:44:42 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> kyrios suck! Martin Arnold wrote: > I find myself rapidly becoming disenchanted with Kyriotates. Possessing > people doesn't strike me as being particular divine. It's hardly > discreet. Why does Heaven need to posess people? That's scarifying! Not really. Divine possession - being filled with the Glory of God, and acting purely on His Will rather than your own - is not unheard of in history, and many people are quite willing to host an Agent of God for a while. They're also a nice counterpart to the Shedim. ;) - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:55:46 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Discussion on the list On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > IMO, it gets a bit tedious over time. I could say that "IMC Jesus was > > actually a Kyriotate who became crazy when he possessed Gabriel's and > > Mary's love-child", and it would be utterly pointless except as, at best, > > vaguely interesting and/or comic anecdotes. > > Which is responded to, in kind, with "It's not canon" or "It's canon doubt > and uncertaintly". This has a disturbing tendancy to kill the thread. I > myself cannot venture out theories about Jesus Christ because I'll be > smacked down and sent to my room as fast as the message appears on the > List. Which is why there aren't any... and my room is a real pit. I'm > such a slob. My Dad calls me "a house pig". *sigh* You ain't seen my room... Living away from home has its privileges, one of which is the ability to have a room messy enough to scare the Jehova's Witnesses away. :) > > Anders Gabrielsson, who might have caught Dresnerian Rantism. :) > So the question is... do you want worship or do you want the truth? > Unfortunately, and really sadly, most people want the former, and I'm > wired to give the latter. It's human nature, but *shrug*. If my admittedly quite flippant comment was seen as insulting, I humbly apologize. It was not intended that way. I was just a bit surprised at my own desire to, well, rant on this subject. Must have taken dissonance from it too, aspiring Elohite that I am. :P Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:00:28 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Vephar OK, here's another.... Vephar, Demon Prince of the Oceans "The World is drowning; I will flood out your hearts." Vephar began his days as an Ofanim in service to Oannes, Archangel of The Waters. In those days he swam with the dolphins and cruised the ocean depths watching over sailing ships as humans began to voyage around their world. Vephar was one of few servants of Oannes who disliked his hostility toward Jordi. Vephar, and those like him, nurtured great love of the creatures of the seas. While they served Oannes faithfully, they still associated with the fishes. Jordi himself was ignorant of this, as Vephar was always careful to avoid angels of Jordi at sea. Whenever they approached he would dive down below the surface to places where the light could not be found. At first this frightened him, he could not believe there where such places on earth - did not the light of Heaven shine everywhere. But in time found himself growing accustomed to these places; it would take him longer to surface each time, and he found that he had developed a strange affinity for the odd creatures that survived in that harsh wilderness. These creatures seemed almost 'outcast', alien, yet powerful and strong. Strong enough to survive in a place without light or warmth. Vephar began to change. He began to slow down, fixating on these lifeforms, almost obsessing over them. Then came the destructive tendencies. As Vephar's resonance changed he found himself sullen and withdrawn, regularly avoiding contact with even his fellow servants of Oannes - those who shared his feelings toward marine life. He understood more and more the analogy between the oceans of water and the oceans of the heart. He travelled to the north to where the icebergs formed, marvelling at their hidden depths and dangers. He wondered what it would be like to become one and so created a vessel for himself in the form of a vast iceberg. As he learned how to wreck ships and destroy men he added a new side to his changed nature; the power of the oceans was in his hands. A power over which man had no dominion. This was his territory and he would do with man what he desired. He would destroy them. Sometimes Vephar would manifest in the cold and lonely reaches of the seas as a vast monster, fuelling mankind's fears of Kraken and Leviathans; monstrous oceanic behemoths. He would swallow ships whole and drag men down to the dark oceanic depths he had made his home just to kill them. Vephar had sunk to the furthest pit, Hell. Lucifer crowned him Demon Prince of the Oceans and charged him with foiling his old master o earth. Now Vephar represents the power of the oceans in all its destructive and lonely connotations; of being shipwrecked or consumed by giant sea monsters, of being sunk by an iceberg, of those cold and terrible depths themselves whose very nature demands a cold and strong heart to survive. Vephar, Calabite Prince of the Oceans. In hell, Vephar's principality (nicknamed Davy Jones' Locker by some of his servants) although relatively small, is an underground sea, like something out of Jules Verne. The shores are populated by giant dinosaurs and bathed in a heatless, pale phosphorescence. The waters themselves are beyond deep; populated themselves by hideous sea creatures - their souls in fact - and vast shipwrecks. It is in one of these (thought to be the Titanic, or the Marie Celeste), that Vephar himself holds court. The Prince likes to manifest as a huge angel fish. In his domain are the souls of shipwrecked criminals (such as those exiled to Australia), mutineers, drowned babies and sunken U-Boat crews. Vephars' relations with his infernal peers are somewhat straightforward. He is often allied with Beleth whose word he promotes through the stories sailors tell about what they have seen in the seas. He also helped Beleth when Uriel invaded the Marches; Vephar offered shelter to those mythological beasts whose home was the ocean, many of whom now find themselves in thrall to the Prince in Hell. He admires the destructiveness of Belial, with whom he finds a kinship, however the Prince of Fire often regards Vephar, coldly, as a wet fish! Valefor has nor special love for Vephar as many souls that find themselves in Vephar's realm, he feels, should belong in Stygia; the souls of pirates and buccaneers who deserve better! Vephar particularly admires Kronos and would love to earn his respect. Vephar sees him as the epitome of all that is evil, seeing one's descent to Fate perfectly mirrored by the journey into the oceanic depths. For his part, Kronos merely views him as one more angel who has met his fate; Vephar is a limited creature with a limited purpose ho fulfils his role adequately. The rest of the demon court are largely indifferent to him, and vice versa; their words have little in common with Vephar. Vephar is really a minor prince who keeps to his own. Dissonance For demons of the deep, it is dissonant to help anyone at sea. All must feel the isolation of the deep. Band Attunements Balseraph Vephar's liars can add their Celestial Forces to the Check Digit of a successful resonance roll whenever they try to hinder someone at sea. For example they may lie to someone about where they are going, or the safety of the local sea/weather conditions, etc. Djinn Stalkers of the sea don't gain dissonance if their attuned is lost at sae. And the location of their watery grave (or place last seen) is always known to them. Calabim Those who share their master's band can cover the effects of their resonance by making it look like water erosion or drowning. Of course this will not always seem plausible, but it will look real. Habbalah The Ocean's punishers can, with a successful resonance roll, instil in their targets a terrible fear of the sea; the severity of which is governed by the Check Digit and modified by the demon's Celestial Forces. Lilim Daughters of the depths are exempted from Vephar';s dissonance when using their special brand of help. However they must Geas that person afterwards else they will receive two notes of dissonance as a sign of their master's ire. Shedim Vephar's Shedim, to spite Vephar's former 'friend' Jordi, can make use of Albatross as vessels. They needn't corrupt that vessel, just so long as they cause problems for any ship hey circle above (failure to do so will inflict dissonance). They may also, if they can find them, posses the remains of anyone thought lost at sea. Of course, the cause of death (if they actually died and didn't just vanish!), may make it difficult; the demon has no intrinsic way of compensating this. He needn't corrupt them further, either, but may only remain in the body for a number of days equal to his Celestial Forces. Impudites These takers need not Charm their victims if they can simpler persuade them to tell a seafaring tale from their own experience first. If the tale is sufficiently impressive, the GM may modify the chances of stealing essence in the demon's favour later on. However, he must make the attempt immediately. Servitor Attunements Swell (revised from Oannes) This allows the angel to dramatically increase or decrease the size of a body of water. The angel is restricted in that the size of the body affected may only be equal to his own mass (in game this is meant to reflect the power of his corporeal forces). Each point of essence spent can affect the size (in all dimensions, although still obeying natural laws) by double or half, but the cost also doubles as well. This can be used on pouring rain to increase the strength of the rain accordingly. Iceberg With this power the demon can hide his demonic nature temporarily. With a successful Will roll, he can appear, to all intents and purposes, human. In order to activate this power, the character must bather himself or otherwise by immersed in water. Afterwards, the demon must expend one point of essence. Distinctions Knight of the Oceans Vephar's Knight's are never lost at sea. Captain of Shipwrecks Vephar's Captains are automatically granted a new vessel if their current one is lost at sea, providing he didn't die alone (i.e. the others weren't also servants of Vephar or otherwise friendly demons). However Vephar will likely ask some favour of them as penance (he's a Prince after all!). Baron of the Abyss Such demons can drown a mortal without causing disturbance at all. Basic Rites · Pressgang a mortal (two essence for an angel!) · Find sunken treasure · Survive a shark attack Relations Allied: Beleth Associated: Saminga, Malphas, Nybbas (Jaws?) Hostile: None especially (you'd have to ask them!) Enemy: Valefor. Chance of Invocation: on land 0 (and always guarantees a hostel reception); at sea 2; in the middle of the ocean 3 Invocation Modifiers 1. A shark cage. 2. The survivors of a sea disaster discussing their epxerience in depth. 3. A flawed design for a ship (not a deliberate one, the intent must be that the ship WILL sail). 4. A sinking ship 5. The wreck of the Titanic 6. The Bermuda triangle Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1173 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.