From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Mar 24 12:12:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17478 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:12:18 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA17179 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:12:14 -0600 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:12:14 -0600 Message-Id: <199903241812.MAA17179@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1175 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, March 24 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1175 In this digest: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas IN> (Jordi) (Was: Recent Superior posting) Re: IN> In Principio Re: IN> Second Edition Re: IN> Archives IN> Re: IN> An Introduction (or, "Hi!") Re: IN> (Jordi) (Was: Recent Superior posting) Re: IN> Archives Re: IN> Discussion on the list Re: IN> Discussion on the list Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction Re: IN> Celestial fiction Re: IN> Archives Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction Re: IN> Jordi Re: IN> Archives IN> St. Gabriel's Day Re: IN> St. Gabriel's Day Re: IN> Jordi Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction Re: IN> Archives IN> Nailed: Bonded Servitors Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction Re: IN> Celestial fiction Re: IN> Corporeal forces Re: IN> St. Gabriel's Day Re: IN> Archives ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:46:08 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas >>>1. Real IN setting books on Heaven and Hell -- politics, economics, philosophy, etc. What is it like to really be a demon hanging out in Hell. H&H was sort of basic and unsatisfying, but this is where angels and demons spend most of their time. Failing that, IN Stygia and/or IN Shal-Mari.<<< 2nd edition Heaven & Hell would be a good idea, IMO. I didn't much like H&H either. >>>2. The History of Hell / The History of Heaven (the Fall).<<< And post-Fall. I'd like to see some of the historical Superiors brought up, and the histories of existing Superiors brought into sharper focus. When did Marc become an Archangel? (My theory -- sometime between 400-800 B.C., the Axial Age, when international trade was really becoming a phenomenon, and incidentally, so were monotheistic religions -- yes, I *am* reading Karen Carpenter's "A History of God" right now....) Which Superiors were doing what during the Crusades? I guess I'd add "In Nomine historical supplements" to my wish-list. >>>3. How To Run A War In Hell And Make Out Like You Have A Clue. (A favorite of mine.)<<< Interesting alternate scenario book. In order to put it in canon, it would have to be the focus of a major new cycle, I think. >>>4. IN Renegades and Outcasts. A very popular topic.<<< You probably could do a whole book on this, yes. >>>5. IN Law: The Game and Judgment<<< Not sure this would fill a book, although I suppose if it includes greatly expanded Superior writeups on Dominic and Asmodeus, it could. >>>6. A really damn good scenario book, which concentrates and focuses on that scenario.<<< Yeah. I don't think that would be one of my strengths...as a GM, I've always been the sort who creates a setting, then drops PCs into it just to see what they do, and take it from there. >>>7. I still really want a complete IN Sorcery book, CPG or no CPG, and over Jo's protests. :). (Except, of course, the bit about the fashion tips -- that has to stay in.)<<< I could easily have inflated the section on sorcery in the CPG to another chapter or two, so there probably is enough material to do a Sorceror's sourcebook. >>>8. A suggestion from elsewhere was IN Religion - a treatment of Judaism, Christianity and Islam from the POV of Heaven and Hell.<<< I'd like this, but while I'm touching on it a bit in the next supplement I'm writing, I wouldn't feel qualified to write an entire sourcebook on it. >>>9. More Jewish Mythos, just in general and everywhere, like a splattershot.<<< See above. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:59:34 -0500 From: Kim Foster Subject: IN> (Jordi) (Was: Recent Superior posting) >>>Incidentally, I see a lot of agitation on this list as to what a pain in >>>the wazoo Dominic is, or Uriel, but does anyone beside me think Jordi >>>should be added to this list? His political power is less than >>>Dominic's, but it says in the APG (I think) that if he'd had his way he >>>would have destroyed all humans, and had to be talked out of it. > >Excellent point! I never really thought of that before, but it makes perfect >sense. This leads to a number of interesting potential storylines... I've had trouble using Jordi as presented. I just don't get him I guess. His barely restrained desire to exterminate humanity (or its seems barely restrained) is the major reason I can't find much use for him accept as an obstacle. Email Address change:Please update to the following: nexus@uky.campuscwix.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:59:31 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In Principio >So I had a thought about this, and in the shower this morning I came up >with an "Amazingly Bad Primer To Writing Amazingly Bad Biblical-Like >Fanfic". All it takes is knowing how to translate what into what. So where's the Perl script for it....? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:18:32 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Second Edition > Organize. Though I appreciate the effort that went into making a >Good Index (hey, white wolf, take a lesson.) I thinks the presentation of >the information needs work. (of curse, I am a Instructional Designer, and a >reference geek, so I think that all rpg books should be organized as >reference sources. )) I think this is #1 on Elizabeth's hit list for 2nd ed. We went through a fair amount of effort reorganizing IN's presentation for the GURPS version (and I'll cross my fingers and hope we did a halfway passable job; people should see it in playtest soon, and can criticize...). > Make it Independent. I bought shadowrun third edition. then I found >that it does not work without a clear and well developed understanding of >second edition (or else it was completely incomprehensible; take your pick). Yes. We have the same problem with GURPS IN. It basically repeats most of the background from the main IN book, for exactly this reason. That's not so good for the IN buyer who also wants the GURPS version, but that's not the main audience for GURPS IN. I suspect the same would happen with IN 2nd ed. (The GURPS line normally works this way, too, though sometimes material is removed from later editions of worldbooks where it's been later incorporated into "core" books. But the main GURPS book hasn't lost anything significant from 1st ed., just gained some stuff.) > Do not change the mechanics in a way that invalidates all the >supplements that you have releases to date. This is a really tricky problem. Yep. It happened in GURPS 3rd ed. -- the ranged weapon combat system in 1st/2nd ed. was simply too broken to live, so SJ fixed it. A few other minor things have been changed over the years in GURPS, but generally SJ seems to prefer consistency over thrashing the system, expect when things are *really* broken. The IN combat system *may* fall into that category, or SJ may decide that people who want a more realistic combat system will generally use the GURPS version of IN instead, once it's available. >As far as I can tell, this would be the biggest tripping point for a second >edition. If you don't render major changes in the game, what is the point of >a second edition? It's called a reprinting -- eventually the copies of the old edition sell out, and SJGames reprints the book. If there are no significant changes, it's just a reprinting. If they make major changes (usually organizational), they call it a new edition. > If you do, what happens to the first edition supplements? In GURPS, some people continue to use them, many buy the new edition, since by the time a useful supplement goes through a revision, many peoples' original copy is wearing out. In the past, SJGames has usually provided a list of changes in new editions -- these are usually just errata to the old ones, actually. Organization changes invalidate page number references between books, though, which is actually the biggest problem I've seen with major edition revisions at SJGames. Generally, newer books list edition with book name in the introduction, where page references are discussed. But IN uses a different inter-book reference style than GURPS, so I don't know how this would be handled. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:27:06 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Archives At 13:14 -0500 3/23/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >But tons of it could also be adapted into completely *new* stuff. I saw >four different types of Nephallim in there -- a Nephallim sourcebook could >certainly be a workable project. There are tons of minor choir which could >be created. And Superiors. Many many Superiors. We've had reference (and >seen on this list) a *lot* of Minor Superiors. We should be seeing a lot >more of them, I think. There's a deliberate policy on SJGames' part to not produce endless books of new minor stuff -- no new Choirs/Bands (even minor) or minor Superiors. Basically, they're trying to avoid TSR/WW syndrome. Whether they're going too far in the other direction is a matter for debate (personally, I approve of this -- it leaves more maneuvering room for GMs). > And reasons and rules for *why* one Superior is >Minor and another is major. That would certainly be an interesting topic -- anything on the background workings of the Symphony would be useful, I think. > It's been long enough since the first book >came out that I think it's time we start seeing Canon on the Grigori >themselves. Sometime soon, I hope. There are definite plans on this one. > I'd like to see historical work with Historical Superiors. This is another item that's fairly high on Elizabeth's wish list, I think. We might see something relatively soon. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:35:01 -0300 From: Felipe Pereira Subject: IN> Re: > Hi ! First I would like to congratulate all you for the quality of In Nomine >(Satanis Magna Veritas). Sure, I am glad to see that u are intersted in it. > I have been reading The Books for some time and now I'm thinking about >"GMing" to my group, Only if I am in it, and dont take any plot idea from the official site cause I have seen everyone there. >I would like to ask about some rules. Shoot it > In case of a Celestial in Earth, going to his plane (Up or Down) to do >something, or involved in a combat. - Is he abble to go any time? As long as he has essence and makes all those checks, sure, why not, it is a good scape, but remember, he can be followed Does he just say "Tchau" to his opponent when he knows that he will lose the figth? Not exactly, when he meets his boss he will be pissed off, call me and I will explain it to you I would like to know the game mechanical when this kind of situation happens Sure, call me Felipe W. Pereira a.k.a. Azrael fwp@globalsite.com.br ICQ number: 2192991 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:36:05 -0500 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: IN> An Introduction (or, "Hi!") I should probably have lurked a bit before I posted, but I'm in something of a rush, what with my first In Nomine campaign starting this weekend, so I'll just introduce myself and skip the whole lurking thing entirely. I've always been a vocal newbie -- we'll see if the trend holds. :) My name is James, J for short, and I usually go by Azrael, online. Which brings me to remarking about the brief chuckle I had reading the bit about Az in your FAQ. I take it I'm not the only person who immediately found a need for him? :) Anyway, thank you for getting his name right. Rather than run the risk of boring you further, I'll be quiet now and see what other people have to say. Thanks for listening. Az. PS- My sig file is a little long. Forgive me if I ever forget to cancel it before sending a message to the list. -AZ http://students.haverford.edu/jzoshak ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:46:50 -0500 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> (Jordi) (Was: Recent Superior posting) >I've had trouble using Jordi as presented. I just don't get him I guess. His >barely restrained desire to exterminate humanity (or its seems barely >restrained) is the major reason I can't find much use for him accept as an >obstacle. I have this trouble with most of Heaven as presented. I've found that every angelic Choir as well as all of the archangels have VERY limited spheres -- as in limited enough to hurt roleplay (at least, any roleplay I'd be interested in doing). But on the other side, one of my players is thinking about playing an angel of Jordi. I think she's planning on playing down her Superior's desire for human extinction -- I mean, if every angel followed her superior's word to the letter, there wouldn't be much of a story, would there? I guess it is all about bending the rules a little, while still maintaining your resonance. I just have a thing for rules.... Az. http://students.haverford.edu/jzoshak ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 01:35:30 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Archives At 10:27 PM -0500 3/23/99, Walter Milliken wrote: > At 13:14 -0500 3/23/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >>But tons of it could also be adapted into completely *new* stuff. I saw >>four different types of Nephallim in there -- a Nephallim sourcebook could >>certainly be a workable project. There are tons of minor choir which could >>be created. And Superiors. Many many Superiors. We've had reference (and >>seen on this list) a *lot* of Minor Superiors. We should be seeing a lot >>more of them, I think. > > There's a deliberate policy on SJGames' part to not produce endless books > of new minor stuff -- no new Choirs/Bands (even minor) or minor Superiors. > Basically, they're trying to avoid TSR/WW syndrome. Whether they're going > too far in the other direction is a matter for debate (personally, I > approve of this -- it leaves more maneuvering room for GMs). Then where do Menunim/Pachadim (and for that matter Christopher, Lithoroy/ Fleurity and so on) fit into that policy? I can understand not having a Book of Superiors (though *I* would buy such a thing ) and the like, but does this mean that little "filler" Superiors and Choirs/Bands will be sprinkled throughout other products? >> And reasons and rules for *why* one Superior is >>Minor and another is major. > > That would certainly be an interesting topic -- anything on the background > workings of the Symphony would be useful, I think. Agreed there -- I'm definitely on the "Myth" side of things... one of the underlying concepts of IN that I like the most is the idea of the Word Bound celestial, working not so much for Heaven or Hell but for an *idea* that needs to be developed selflessly or selfishly. I'd love to know how a 15 Force Angel with a word that's minor transforms into an Archangel as his Word swells up in significance, and the same for the reduction. >> It's been long enough since the first book >>came out that I think it's time we start seeing Canon on the Grigori >>themselves. > > Sometime soon, I hope. There are definite plans on this one. Vunderful. >> I'd like to see historical work with Historical Superiors. > > This is another item that's fairly high on Elizabeth's wish list, > I think. We might see something relatively soon. > Excellent again. Thanks for the response. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:29:40 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Discussion on the list On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Or maybe I just shouldn't even read the list or respond to people who > want to know the answers for their games. I, for one, would be sorry to see you go. And not only for your ability to spout canon at will. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:49:08 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Discussion on the list On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Emily K. Dresner wrote: > > The other question in my mind is: "Is what's good for discussion on > > the list good for *playing the game*?" > > Actually, bizarrely, yes. That's exactly it. And I'll explain why in one > very easy step: > > If people are discussing the topic, then they find it interesting. If > people are not discussing the topic, then they do not find it interesting. > The only way to keep people around is to keep things interesting. Gamers > have the attention spans of gnats. The way you can tell if things are > interesting is if they are talking about it. Incessantly. People talk about things because they find them interesting, but in this context there is "good" interest and "bad" interest. "Bad" interest is based in confusion - there's part of the background or rules that you just don't understand ("How do geases -really- work? In this particular situation?" is the archetypal example), and you need some input from others. This kind of discussion is based in lack of information or similar problems rather than fascination. "Good" interest is based on a genuine fascination with the subject - the Purity Crusade falls into this category (mostly). > It's a good book. All the Libers are good books. I've said this multiple > times. But they are _just_ books of stuff. They don't _add_ anything to > your universe. They don't push your boundaries anywhere. They don't > spark the imagination. They're nice and easy and safe. So you get no new > topics. I think this is caused by there being so much in the normal IN setting that's completely different from the Real World(TM). You have Tethers, and Songs, and these really weird Angels and Demons who don't work like humans at all in many important ways, and they have these Vessels instead of bodies and Roles that nobody really knows how they work, and they can do these Rites that give them Essence, which is like magic points, sort of, except they're not, and... If we compare IN to Vampire, for example, there is a huge difference in how much the typical environment differs from the players' experience with the normal world. In Vampire there are vampires that have some funky abilities, most of them at least somewhat recognizable from pop culture. The clans are recognizable stereotypes - the Brujahs are leather-clad punks, the Toreadors are artsy fops, the Ventrues are politicians - and the politicking of vampire society isn't very difficult to understand. In IN you can't take anything about your character for granted. What does it mean to be an angel? Nobody really knows, because there's no common pop culture image that gives people some common ground. Most of them don't even have wings, ferchrissakes! They don't -think- like humans, which vampires, for the most part, do. They don't have the same goals as humans. Many of them don't even really -understand- humans! Demons are a little easier, since they have an easily understandable goal - Look Out for Number One - but they are still very different from humanity. Anyway, that there is so much in the IN gaming world that's different from the real world means there's a big bunch of things that need expanding simply because there's not room in a basic book to explain all of them in the detail that's needed, which means a bigger part of the new books than usual for a game will have to be about these basic topics rather than new material. > Defining rules is a fine thing. But you have to do more then that. > You have to physically add to your universe constantly to keep people > interested -- and more then just places and people! And it's just not > happening. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be done in IN. New Superiors and Choirs/Bands? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:01:09 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Walter Milliken wrote: > >So I had a thought about this, and in the shower this morning I came up > >with an "Amazingly Bad Primer To Writing Amazingly Bad Biblical-Like > >Fanfic". All it takes is knowing how to translate what into what. > > So where's the Perl script for it....? *LOL* Maybe I could get away with doing this for an assignment instead of a stemming function for Swedish? *chuckle* Uh... on-topic... well... What kind of fiction would the different choirs/bands write (if they had the time and inclination)? Seraphim: None. Fiction isn't truth. Using clearly labeled parables in speech might be acceptable, but writing them down where they can be quoted out of context? Certainly not! Cherubim: Stories of courageous knights saving their comrades and protecting the innocent. Or maybe super-hero comics. Ofanim: Very, very short stories. Like, two or three paragraphs, tops. Elohim: Any kind, but only if it's necessary. Malakim: Short, terse stories with very harsh morals. Kyriotates: Multiple-character first person stories. "I hit him hard in my solar plexus, and I blacked out from lack of breath." Mercurians: Childrens' stories. Even for grown-ups. I'll leave those nasty demons for someone else. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:13:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial fiction At 9:01 AM +0100 3/24/99, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Walter Milliken wrote: > >Uh... on-topic... well... What kind of fiction would the different >choirs/bands write (if they had the time and inclination)? >I'll leave those nasty demons for someone else. :) Balseraphs: "WE NEVER WRITE FICTION! IT'S ALL TRUE!" Djinn: Angst poetry which doesn't rhyme. Most of it is left unfinished; all of it is about the pain of being misunderstood and alone. Calabim: Splatterpunk and their versions of _The Anarchist's Cookbook_. Habbalah: Religious tracts with lots of Hellfire and pain! Lilim: Whatever the client wants. Shedim: Whatever the host doesn't want to write. In excruciating detail. Impudites: Buddy stories! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:07:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Archives At 1:35 AM -0500 3/24/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 10:27 PM -0500 3/23/99, Walter Milliken wrote: >> There's a deliberate policy on SJGames' part to not produce endless books >> of new minor stuff -- no new Choirs/Bands (even minor) or minor Superiors. >> Basically, they're trying to avoid TSR/WW syndrome. Whether they're going >> too far in the other direction is a matter for debate (personally, I >> approve of this -- it leaves more maneuvering room for GMs). > >Then where do Menunim/Pachadim (and for that matter Christopher, >Lithoroy/ Fleurity and so on) fit into that policy? The token "There's more stuff out there" things, I think. (You know, like the token girl in the cartoon group.) It's certainly not going to be a habit to make more, "Oh, they were there all along and everyone knew about them" Superiors. Mind, if something like the Magog thing cropped up, that would be different. (He was locked away in a cave; nobody knew about him, really.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:35:18 -0500 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction >I'll leave those nasty demons for someone else. :) Hmm... may I? First of all, I don't think demons'd write books -- they seem to me more the movie types. I mean, why make $5.99 off a novel someone can read repeatedly when you can charge $8 for a one-shot movie ticket? Eeeeevil.... Balseraph: Historical Fiction (ala any of Oliver Stone's historical films) Djinn: Stalker Horror ("I Know What You Did Last Summer") Calabim: Action (w/ plenty of explosions) Habbalah: Any kind of film as long as it has at least a few scenes that encourage extreme negative emotional responses (ala the torture scene in Reservoir Dogs) Lilim: Adult (starring and directing) Shedim: Slasher Horror (or, "Fallen") Impudites: Romantic Drama (ala "Titanic") Az. http://students.haverford.edu/jzoshak ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:47:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Jordi I agree; as far as I can tell, Jordi came within an ace of falling and didn't out of sheer obedience to God. Just. Barely. What do you do with an Archangel that really, really hates humans? Well, I suppose you can run a few scenarii in which humans *are* the Bad Guys and the Good Guys are angels and animals. Even throwing in a few environmentalist humans seems edgy for Jordi. This can be done but is pretty limited. You can also have adventures in the animal world, just plain separate from the human one. This would make a dual role-playing challenge -- angels AND animals as PCs and major NPCs -- that would be hard to sustain without slipping into something Toonish or, at best, along the lines of Kipling's "Jungle Book" (not to be confused with Disney's warping) or "Call of the Wild." The other thing you can do is put dear old Jordi out to pasture. He's very uninteresting in celestial politics, yes? He's basically waiting for Armageddon to come and go, hoping there'll be an ecosphere left afterwards, sans humans, so he can go back to work. Well, let him wait. As Superiors go, he's a one trick pony. If you want to do something ELSE with angels and animals, make up a few high-ranking Worded servitors of Jordi, who have more political acumen than their boss, and therefore interact with the world of humans. Jordi would probably like to make them Outcasts, but the Seraphim Council won't let him. What I have in mind is a short list like: - - the Angel of Pets - - the Angel of Riding - - the Angel of the Draft (cart horses, oxen, etc.) - - the Angel of Slaughter (food animals, leather, etc.) This moderate group within Jordi's camp would be largely concerned with humane treatment of animals that live in the human world, but also concerned with using animals in the War, which means getting them to work with humans. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:55:07 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Archives >At 1:35 AM -0500 3/24/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >>At 10:27 PM -0500 3/23/99, Walter Milliken wrote: > >>> There's a deliberate policy on SJGames' part to not produce endless books >>> of new minor stuff -- no new Choirs/Bands (even minor) or minor Superiors. >>> Basically, they're trying to avoid TSR/WW syndrome. Whether they're going >>> too far in the other direction is a matter for debate (personally, I >>> approve of this -- it leaves more maneuvering room for GMs). >> >>Then where do Menunim/Pachadim (and for that matter Christopher, >>Lithoroy/ Fleurity and so on) fit into that policy? > >The token "There's more stuff out there" things, I think. (You >know, like the token girl in the cartoon group.) It's certainly >not going to be a habit to make more, "Oh, they were there all >along and everyone knew about them" Superiors. Mind, if something >like the Magog thing cropped up, that would be different. (He was >locked away in a cave; nobody knew about him, really.) > Hmmmm.... I wonder (realizing no one here can answer this with authority) if this is where Pyramid can "fill the gap" for GM's who are interested in such thing. (Well, Pyramid and this list as well.) Certainly, it's the sort of thing that interests me, both in the reading and in the writing -- I like having more stuff than I'll use available, and then I can pick and choose what I'll actually use in my own game. Man, how many different forms of parenthetical statement can I use in one paragraph? (Token girl in the cartoon group. Which brings to mind IN Voltron. Eli, Laurence, David, Christopher and Blandine fighting the evil forces of Belial, Baal and Lilith....) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:16:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> St. Gabriel's Day By the way, according to my desk calendar, today is St. Gabriel's Day. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:25:27 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> St. Gabriel's Day At 10:16 AM -0500 3/24/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >By the way, according to my desk calendar, today is St. Gabriel's Day. Ah. In honor of this, we should light candles? (Heh. And not tell anyone *why*, just that it's traditional, and see what we start...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:28:06 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Jordi >You can also have adventures in the animal world, just plain >separate from the human one. How about this? During a Vapulan experiment, two Celestial groups are thrown back in time to primordial earth. Pre-humanity. Okay, so now Jordi-Prime has to figure out how to get back to the present, and defeat the forces of Nybbastron. . . Er, on second thought. . . Scratch that. . . Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Technomancer, Six of Nine. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:52:54 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction From: Anders Gabrielsson >Uh... on-topic... well... What kind of fiction would the different >choirs/bands write (if they had the time and inclination)? > >Seraphim: None. Fiction isn't truth. Using clearly labeled parables in >speech might be acceptable, but writing them down where they can be quoted >out of context? Certainly not! > >Cherubim: Stories of courageous knights saving their comrades and >protecting the innocent. Or maybe super-hero comics. > >Ofanim: Very, very short stories. Like, two or three paragraphs, tops. > >Elohim: Any kind, but only if it's necessary. > >Malakim: Short, terse stories with very harsh morals. > >Kyriotates: Multiple-character first person stories. "I hit him hard in my >solar plexus, and I blacked out from lack of breath." > >Mercurians: Childrens' stories. Even for grown-ups. You forgot one of the Choirs... Menunim: True-life stories about people overcoming adversity. >I'll leave those nasty demons for someone else. :) And I'll gladly chime in with their contributions... *s* Balseraphs: Supermarket Tabloids. Djinn: Nothing. Too much trouble and effort. Calabim: Image comics, because they have lots of stuff going BOOM! Habbalah: Chick tracts. Lilim: Self-Help books. Sheddim: Splatterpunk stories, the gorier and more nauseating, the better. Pachadim: True-life stories about people being crushed and defeated by forces too great for them to overcome. Drat! Couldn't think of anything for the Impudites... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:02:29 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Archives On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Token girl in the cartoon group. Ah, but in Scooby-Doo there were two girls! :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:28:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Nailed: Bonded Servitors We recently had a discussion about the unfalling nature of Malakim, vividly expressed in terms of the old Israelite ritual of a slave willingly nailing his ear to his master's doorpost, to indicate his intention to forego the chance of freedom and stay with his master permanently. What if Malakim are just the most generalized instance of a kind of permanent commitment that a celestial can make? Let there be "bonded" (or, more colloquially, "nailed") servitors. Maybe it's a rare grade of distinction higher than the highest ones documented. Maybe it's its own status. Here's how it works: Bonded servitors are never, never going to serve another Superior. Try to re-atune them, and you'll destroy them. Bonded servitors are never, never going to be Superiors, even if they are Worded; the bond means they can never be their old Superior's peer. Bonded servitors don't need Hearts. If they're vessel-killed, they home in on their Superior's celestial presence. Bonded servitors have an enhanced chance of invoking their Superior; they get to throw the dice a second time, if they fail the first. Now the sticky bits: Bonded servitors do not necessarily switch sides if their Superior does. But the bondsmen of such Superiors are the only ones who CAN switch sides. Until their superior Falls or Redeems, bonded servitors cannot do so; they just rack up dissonance & discord like a Malakite. If a bonded servitor and its Superior are on opposite sides, the bondsman can draw Essence and do invocation using *either* the current rites *or* the former ones. Thus, a surviving bonded Angel of Laughter can still use the rites of Laughter or switch to those of Dark Humor. If a bonded servitor and a Superior are on opposite sides, the bondsman can use the old rites to draw Essence without the Superior being able to track them by it; the change of state gets in the way. - --- Thus, we can have Demon Princes who have, in essence "renegade angels" serving their *old* Words, or tragic angel servitors trying to work within the new system (assuming they weren't just destroyed, which must be what usually happens) and generally watching their effort turned to evil by their own (still beloved) Superior and his aligned servitors. Likewise, if there were any Redeemed Archangels, they could have demon servitors out their besmirching their Words, or sullenly enslaved bonded demons doing good under pressure. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:21:13 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction >Menunim: True-life stories about people overcoming adversity. > Nah -- stream of consciousness neopsychadelia. And Sandman Fanfic. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:45:21 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial fiction (I'm assuming the demons have some writing talent.... :) ) Balseraphs: Biographies. Especially the sorts where you don't believe one person could possibly have done everything the biographer claims, but unfortunately their research was just thorough enough that it might be true. History text books. Djinn: Very fluffy romances, under a pseudonym. If caught, they deny all knowledge. Calabim: Very tightly constructed short stories -- especially the sort where everyone ends up dead in the last scene for no real reason and the scenery all falls down around them. They're better directors than writers. Particularly Calabim of Nightmares :) Might be decent poets. Habbalah: Emotionally intense plays, especially with very strong morals. Tend to write themselves in as the hero (or identify strongly with the anti-hero). Very very poor poetry ;) Political polemic. Lilim: They geas other people to do the writing. Shedim: Tabloid press. Anything that crashes through the lowest common denominator and keeps going. Radio plays which involve lots of different voices/ characters. Impudites: We write the _best_ fiction! But we are much better at offering constructive criticism to other people -- in the nicest possible way of course :) Whatever keeps the people happy. jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:43:25 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal forces >Celestial Forces are the Soul, the Essence (if you will) of the being - -- >without Celestial Forces, the being is little more than an artificial >intelligence or a Remnant. Sad and pathetic and doomed to true Death. Okay, we know about angels and demons with no celestial forces, what about Corporeals and Celestials? Also along those lines, why do the undead retain celestial forces? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:01:50 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> St. Gabriel's Day > At 10:16 AM -0500 3/24/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >By the way, according to my desk calendar, today is St. Gabriel's Day. > and Elizabeth McCoy replied: > Ah. In honor of this, we should light candles? (Heh. And not > tell anyone *why*, just that it's traditional, and see what we > start...) [looks behind and smirks, then giggles] Does this mean my house is sometimes a Tether to Gabriel? My mom [RIP] was known in the neighborhood as both The Nurse and The Candle Lady, as well as The Garlic Lady. I have inherited her ... tendencies. I just counted and the _front_ two rooms of the house have about nine candles and two oil lamps placed hither and yon. I only have the two cedar scented candles burning right _now_, but.... Ave Gabriel, Lady of Lights!! Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Candles... oops, I mean Heaven [whew, good thing I'm not a Seraph] *g* - -- "it's a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milkbone underwear" Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:03:47 -0800 From: "Kelly St.Clair" Subject: Re: IN> Archives >Ah, but in Scooby-Doo there were two girls! :) Yes, but most of the time, Velma was portrayed about as femininely as a potato. ;) Not so her equivalent in the modern version of the Scooby Gang: Willow Rosenberg, played by the lovely Alyson Hannigan. Mmmm. ObIN: Buffy the Demon Slayer, Soldier of ? I'm sure this topic has come up on the list before... - -------------- Kelly St.Clair kellys@efn.org ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1175 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.