From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 25 11:38:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00616 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:38:23 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA07241 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:36:57 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:36:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199903251736.LAA07241@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1177 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1177 In this digest: Re: IN> Archives RE: IN> Archives Re: IN> Corporeal forces and a WEIRD idea Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> kyrios suck! Re: IN> historical in nomine Re: IN> Re:kyrios and why they are bad Re: IN> Buffy (the vampire slayer) Re: IN> Corporeal forces and a WEIRD idea Re: IN> Re:kyrios and why they are bad IN> Campaign background seed Re: IN> Campaign background seed RE: IN> Campaign background seed RE: IN> St. Gabriel's Day IN> TFHs Re: IN> Re:kyrios and why they are bad Re: IN> Re:kyrios and why they are bad RE: IN> Campaign background seed Re: IN> Going to the Celestial Plane IN> In Defense of Dominic Re: IN> St. Gabriel's Day Re: IN> historical in nomine Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> historical in nomine Re: IN> St. Gabriel's Day Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> In Defense of Dominic Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction Re: IN> historical in nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:46:15 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Archives Maybe Buffy is a Soldier of Michael but her Watcher (whose name escapes me) is a Soldier of Lawrence. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:49:40 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Archives Her first watcher was Merrick, the one from season one and two was Giles, and the third, if he can be said to be Buffy's Watcher, is Wesley. steve - -----Original Message----- From: Earl Wajenberg [mailto:earlw@mc.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 1:46 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Archives Maybe Buffy is a Soldier of Michael but her Watcher (whose name escapes me) is a Soldier of Lawrence. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:22:13 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal forces and a WEIRD idea Perry Lloyd wrote: > > >Celestial Forces are the Soul, the Essence (if you will) of the being > -- > >without Celestial Forces, the being is little more than an artificial > >intelligence or a Remnant. Sad and pathetic and doomed to true Death. > > Okay, we know about angels and demons with no celestial forces, what > about Corporeals and Celestials? I assume you mean Ethereals rather than Celestials. The answer: pretty much the same for them. Although ethereal remnants without celestial forces can wander around in the Far Marches, methinks. (Beth?) > Also along those lines, why do the undead retain celestial forces? Because they do. Those Forces are twisted and bizarre compared to everyone else's but they are still there. Heyyyyyy, here's an idea for a non-canon campaign. The apocalypse is coming and both sides are gearing up for it. It's discovered, however, that both Heaven and Hell are doomed to be destroyed in the aftermath, no matter who wins. Saminga and Eli are both strengthening their ties to the Corporeal. Saminga through force-bound corporeal means (undead) and Eli through less-understandable methods (he has created a special attunement for all his servitors). All dead souls, in heaven or hell, are the fuel for the creation of the next world, plus all the celestials aligned with either as well. You can play either side of a campaign like this... leading up to X-day, or afterwards (or both). Ethereals get a big boost without celestial interference... also, what do you do if your soul doesn't have a final destination? Join the undead hordes, or the disciples of creation? Try to attune to the ethereal and the whims of pagan gods? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:10:46 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas > 4. IN Renegades and Outcasts. A very popular topic. This one could be very fun. A healthy minority of campaigns center around these concepts. There are rumblings in this direction coming up...don't know if it will survive future planning, though. > 6. A really damn good scenario book, which concentrates and focuses on > that scenario. Woo-hoo! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:00:34 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> kyrios suck! Martin Arnold wrote: > > Earl: "- Heaven would have no access to mortal bodies or multiple > vessels." > > I find myself rapidly becoming disenchanted with Kyriotates. Possessing > people doesn't strike me as being particular divine. It's hardly > discreet. Why does Heaven need to posess people? That's scarifying! Originally (before vessels were created), there was NO subtle way of experiencing the corporeal aspects of they Symphony. The angels were just there, blazing away, causing problems by their mere presence. Kyriotates were the original spies/spin-doctors/mechanics of Earth. They could go in, do minor tweaks, and be gone. Plus, they let the celestial experience the corporeal in a way that no other choir can manage. They are the least likely to get stuck in one viewpoint. Look at it this way: angels (and Heaven) tend to get very primal, very set in their ways at times. A system that doesn't accomodate a little chaos becomes rigid and fragile. Kyrios are the ones that fill the roll of the chaotic wild cards of Heaven. They are supremely SUBJECTIVE in a way that even Mercurians and Grigori can't manage. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:12:13 -0500 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: IN> historical in nomine At 02:42 PM 3/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >I was wondering what people think about the potentials of historical >settings for In nomine are. I think there could be a lot of potential for >historical settings. I was wondering what people's favorite ideas for >these would be. >Ben, Ofanite of Stone > > I have considered this myself. The American Revolution seems like it would be a great choice. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:15:30 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Re:kyrios and why they are bad On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > My impression of kyrios was that they tended to work in one of > two ways -- very briefly inhabit the bodies of strangers, or > acquire a team of willing hosts who know it well. And there's > using animals, plants, and machines, in a few cases. I believe any Kyrio can possess animals. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:24:23 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Buffy (the vampire slayer) In a message dated 3/24/99 1:52:07 PM, sfeldon@exchange.microsoft.com writes: >-----Original Message----- > >From: Earl Wajenberg [mailto:earlw@mc.com] > >Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 1:46 PM > >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Subject: Re: IN> Archives > >>Maybe Buffy is a Soldier of Michael but her Watcher (whose name >>escapes me) is a Soldier of Lawrence. >> >>Earl > >Her first watcher was Merrick, the one from season one and two was Giles, >and the third, if he can be said to be Buffy's Watcher, is Wesley. > >steve > > At least one person has suggested that Rupert Giles is a (slightly dissonant) Elohite of Yves, possibly Redeemed in the recent past. Wesley (whatever the rest of his name is) is much more Lawrencian (Although possibly a soldier or another Elohite). Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:35:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal forces and a WEIRD idea At 4:22 PM -0500 3/24/99, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >Perry Lloyd wrote: >> Okay, we know about angels and demons with no celestial forces, what >> about Corporeals and Celestials? > > I assume you mean Ethereals rather than Celestials. >The answer: pretty much the same for them. Although ethereal >remnants without celestial forces can wander around in the Far >Marches, methinks. (Beth?) If they were remnatized there, I could see it... It's a bit in the realm of, "If the GM thinks it reasonable." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:37:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re:kyrios and why they are bad At 5:15 PM -0600 3/24/99, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >> My impression of kyrios was that they tended to work in one of >> two ways -- very briefly inhabit the bodies of strangers, or >> acquire a team of willing hosts who know it well. And there's >> using animals, plants, and machines, in a few cases. > >I believe any Kyrio can possess animals. Right. It's plants and machines which require a special attunement. And insects. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:47:48 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: IN> Campaign background seed Since I'm presently unable to sleep I'll try to formulate the vague ideas I have for a campaign background into some kind of coherence. I'm not quite awake, though, so I'll probably make some really dumb mistakes, expecially with capitalization. :) I'll probably violate canon in dozens of ways, but hey, we're here to have fun, right? :) A Conspiracy of Two - ------------------- Eli has been very busy. In his (possibly quite deranged) opinion, Heaven and Hell shouldn't be allowed to meddle with God's creation. Creation is, after all, -his- word - nobody else should stick their noses there. He thinks humanity should be left alone to do what it does best - create. So he's cooked up this little plan to shut Heaven and Hell out of the Corporeal plane. He's convinced Lilith to go along with this - freeing humanity from celestial and diabolical influences will further her Word a - -lot-, and she'll also be able to get away from Lucifer, who has been treating her more and more like a servant, demanding that she sell her daughters to the the other Demon Princes. Together they have created a very powerful artifact that will, when activated, sever all contact between the Celestial plane and the Corporeal. To power the artifact they plan to draw power from some of the stronger Tethers through another set of artifacts. Eli has maneuvered some of his most loyal servitors into positions in some of the strongest Heavenly Tethers, and Lilith has Geases on several important diabolical Seneschals. None of these know exactly what these artifacts they have been given will do - nobody but Eli and Lilith know the plan. Closing the Gates - ----------------- When the artifacts are activated they will siphon a large part of the Essence flow from the Tethers to the plane-severing artifact. Eli and Lilith will also use a large portion of their own Essence supplies. The effect will be immediate - the Symphony will be changed in its core. All Tethers will be severed from their "upper" point in the celestial plane, destroying or driving mad most of the Seneschals. The Superiors who are partly manifest on the corporeal plane will be cut in two - part of them in Heaven or Hell, part still on Earth. All Celestial beings are stunned by this sudden shift in their very beings, causing Trauma-like states in many of them. A Revolution of Dreams - ---------------------- The Ethereals have been dreaming of a chance like this. With all of Heaven and Hell reeling from the blow to the Symphony they seize their chance and go to attack against the Near Marches, sweeping the valiant but confused angels and demons before them. The towers of Blandine and Beleth are crushed by the unified forces of the whole Ethereal realm, while their keepers flee to their respective part of the Celestial. Aftermath - --------- After a while the angels and demons get out of shock and start to realize what has happened. Many of the Superiors have been severely weakened, since part of them has been cut off and left behind on Earth. Their steady supply of Essence through their Tethers has been severed. Many of their servitors are still - presumably - left on Earth. The Ethereals have reclaimed the Marches. Lucifer is furious, and Hell quickly collapses into temporary anarchy as the most weakened Princes are consumed by their long-time enemies. Heaven is wracked by despair - why has God allowed this terrible thing to happen? The angels and demons on Earth are in an even more desperate position. All of a sudden they can't contact their Superiors, they can't use their Rites, they can't go home. Many are driven mad by the simple impossibility of what has happened. In some places there are bloody battles as one or both sides decide that Armageddon is here. Other celestials go into hiding, thinking it's a plot by the opposition. As the situations in Heaven and Hell begin to stabilize, some things become clear. The first is that there is no way to travel between the Celestial plane and the Corporeal. The connection to the Ethereal plane still exists, but the Ethereals are now on a much more equal footing with the Celestials, and they are not happy with how they have been treated since the Purity Crusade. They can't storm the gates of Heaven or Hell, but they can stand against any invasion the weakened Celestials can muster. It might be possible to sneak through to Earth through the Marches, but it's much more likely that anyone who tries will be found - and the Ethereals are not fond of either angels or demons. The second is that the condition appears to be permanent. As far as any of the Superiors, including Lucifer, can tell, there is no way to reverse what has happened. What Happens Now? - ----------------- Exactly how things develop from here depends largely on what Superiors were where when the gates were closed. Eli, Lilith and Gabriel (who hasn't been in Heaven for a few centuries) were all completely on Earth. All of the other Superiors were very likely divided between the planes, with the greater part of their Forces on the Celestial plane. The ones who had a substantial presence on Earth will continue to exist there, in a severely weakened state. They are separated from their Celestial half in a very real and complete way - they have for all purposes become two different beings. Some - especially the Kyriotates - may even have split into several different "manifestations" on the Corporeal plane. "Normal" angels and demons are affected in several ways. They can't Summon their Superiors. They can't use their Rites to gain Essence, though they will still gain that one point at sunrise or sundown. They can still use Songs and Attunements. If they lose a Vessel, and don't have one in reserve, they go to Limbo... and they can't get new ones from their boss. Some Tethers may still exist, in a way - they can be protected areas attuned to their particular Word, and they might still gather Essence. They can't ascend/descend to the Celestial plane... except through the Marches, and they soon learn that trying that is very, -very- dangerous. *** I'm getting kinda sleepy now, so I'll stop here. I hope this is coherent enough to be understandable, and that someone out there will get a kick out of it. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:13:39 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Campaign background seed quite respectable ben elohite of stone ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:18:29 -0500 From: "Sheep Boy" Subject: RE: IN> Campaign background seed Anders, great work, I like it. I had been thinking along similar lines for my own campaign, though happenings there are a bit less drastic. :) My own campaign centers around a third-party-like idea, based on the Prophecy movies. Armageddon has been ushered in, and in the process all Tethers have been severed. I hadn't taken it to the same level of separation that you have in your campaign seed, as Rites are still available, Superiors are summonable, and travel between the planes is still an option. The deal is, though, that, third parties being what they are, the PCs are all Outcasts and Renegades, which means they don't _get_ their rites, can't summon their Superiors, and have no Hearts, which makes getting to the Celestial plane a bit of a bear. It was I who asked the question a while back about the Heartless Celestials moving around without Tethers a while back. :) Anyway, great seed, I really like it. I'll probably be skimming a lot of ideas for my campaign. I hadn't even considered what would happen to the Senschals. :) Thanks again, - Stavro +-stavro@crackden.org-------------------------ICQ#18493910-+ | "Boom na da mmm dum na ema | | Da boom na da mmm dum na ema" | | - Korn, "Freak on a Leash" | +----------------http://www.crackden.org/------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:19:29 -0500 From: "Sheep Boy" Subject: RE: IN> St. Gabriel's Day Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > > > What saint got "sproag"? :) > > > > St Prophyry: "Known for her crusade against idolatry in > ancient Rome. > > Statues of Venus, which were often prayed to by > love-struck girls, were > > said to have self-destructed in Porphyry's presence." > > *LOL* I suppose she'd be responsible for making Spice Girls > posters ignite > if she came down to Earth today... :) Now THAT would be cool. :) - Stavro +-stavro@crackden.org-------------------------ICQ#18493910-+ | "Boom na da mmm dum na ema | | Da boom na da mmm dum na ema" | | - Korn, "Freak on a Leash" | +----------------http://www.crackden.org/------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:33:43 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> TFHs >>>What is 'TFH'?<<< Thread From Hell. One that goes on and on and on forever. Especially when ignited by clueless morons trolling for flames. - -David (not that we know anyone like that on this list) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:34:32 -0500 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Re:kyrios and why they are bad >You cant seriously tell me you'd trust a Kyrio with your body!!! The >only one's I'd trusts are angels of Destiny, but even then only at a >pinch. I think they should be changed; maybe they have to do something >in return for the favour. It could be like a geas, the mortal gets a >geas/x on the Kyrio (as well as his normal dissonance bit) as a result >so he can call on the angel for support if needed. But a kyriotate doesn't need permission before taking over a body, does he? I always saw it as a sort of necessity-driven thing. Az. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:58:26 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Re:kyrios and why they are bad On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: > Martin Arnold: > >You cant seriously tell me you'd trust a Kyrio with your body!!! The > >only one's I'd trusts are angels of Destiny, but even then only at a > >pinch. I think they should be changed; maybe they have to do something > >in return for the favour. It could be like a geas, the mortal gets a > >geas/x on the Kyrio (as well as his normal dissonance bit) as a result > >so he can call on the angel for support if needed. > But a kyriotate doesn't need permission before taking over a body, does he? > I always saw it as a sort of necessity-driven thing. A Kyrio does not need permission, though presumably someone who granted it could refrain from resisting (and not have to fail a Will roll before the Kyrio could take possession.) The idea of a Kyrio having to pay for the use of its host's body is applying very Earthly standards to a very unEarthly type of angel. For some Kyrios, perhaps those in Trade, this would be very appropriate. For others it would make no sense at all; they can't leave the host worse off than they found him and they might well desire to leave the host better off than they found him, but that would be do no harm + help when you can, not payment for value. The idea that the Kyrio owes the host something beyond lack of injury has as an unstated assumption the idea that humans own their bodies and their time. Theologically speaking, those aren't very good assumptions. In fact, for Christian Kyrios, Jesus's parables suggest that our lives are on loan from God. If that's the case, the Kyrio is just temporarily recalling the loan and then issuing it right back out to you. I don't know other religions well enough to say, but I know Judaism and I believe Islam strongly condemn suicide, which is a definite limit to what you can do to your own body. The idea that I don't own my body disturbs me. However, the fact that I feel guilt for not getting enough exercise suggests that there's an emotional level on which I believe this. Now, on a practical level I'm sure there's a 0% chance that SJ Games is going to make such major changes in their mechanics. Thinking about it from a house rules perspective.... The geasa would make playing a Kyrio impractical, since most forms of Kyrio *have* to constantly occupy a host, more often multiple ones. They'd be racking up geasa like mad, and you never know when they might come due, or who might talk a human into invoking one -- and there's the fact that Lilith can trade for geasa, and acquiring them from humans is probably cheap. I'd suggest that if you want to do something like that, change the dissonance condition so that Kyrio must leave their hosts _better off_ than they found him. That's tricky, but it's relatively predictable: you know you'll have to do it, and you have to do it as you go along. Or -- here's a thought. Start by requiring Kyrio to leave their hosts better off than they found them ... but if they fail to do so, they have the option of acquiring a geas instead of dissonance. That switches to the trading mechanism you seem to prefer, permits the Kyrio to pay as he goes, and leaves the option of acquiring debt. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:24:28 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: RE: IN> Campaign background seed On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Sheep Boy wrote: > Thanks again, I'm glad someone liked it. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 03:26:57 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Going to the Celestial Plane > At 1:35 AM -0300 3/23/99, Ricardo de Oliveira Ferreira wrote: > >I would like to ask about some rules. In case of a Celestial in Earth, > >going to his plane (Up or Down) to do something, or involved in a > >combat. - Is he abble to go any time? Now -do- remember, if you do ascend/descend, your Superior is going to want to know -why-. Princes and certain Archangels are notoriously unforgiving about their servitors 'rabbiting' when it cmes down to it, and don't forget Dissonance conditions some Superiors have about retreat or abandoning a mission. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:02:27 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: IN> In Defense of Dominic I forget who originally posted this: > >>>Incidentally, I see a lot of agitation on this list as to what a pain in > >>>the wazoo Dominic is, or Uriel, but does anyone beside me think Jordi > >>>should be added to this list? His political power is less than > >>>Dominic's, but it says in the APG (I think) that if he'd had his way he > >>>would have destroyed all humans, and had to be talked out of it. Poor Dominic, everyone's always picking on Dominic. He supported Uriel, he persecuted Michael and Gabriel, he's a Nazi. (well okay, not a Nazi, but Asmodeus comes off -great- when you RP him as an SS officer) Myself, I tend to -like- playing angels under Dominic because his Word is very - -defined-, moreso than some of the others. Personally, I have to stop myself from saying 'Justice' instead of 'Judgement', since I doubt the simple meaning of 'Judging others' is Dominic's job and he doesn't have some external standards to adhere to. And from the books, you get the impression that Dominic is often -right- in some of his 'persecutions' and he -does- listen and back off when needed (as he did when Yves asked him to pardon Gabriel). Michael was pardoned -not- because he was right, but because he was -needed-, and Gabriel is well...let's just say that from a certain point of view, Dominic's intuition there was somewhat correct. Overall, I see a trend to diss Dominic because he is an unwavering authority figure, which is, let's face it, unpopular, but -someone- has to uphold the law, and this is Heaven's 'Law' we're talking about here, and probably less prone to 'plea bargaining' than Earthly justice where we can find someone not guilty of murder, yet criminally liable for a death. (When I was bartending I asked about 8 judges what this -meant- and got no satisfactory answer, especially when the question, 'But -is- it about justice anymore?' came up.) Myself, I like the idea that (Christian-centrism aside), Dominic is up there making sure justice is still important. (IN pg 114, Servitor Attunement: Heavenly Judgement uses the words "Let justice be done,") It's a big job and those who uphold the law have to be inflexible sometimes, but they can also be fair. A fun idea I am bouncing around is creating (as a PC or NPC), Judge Judy as a Seraph of Judgement (watch how often she pegs liars, sometime). I also tend to like the fact that yes, your Superior is checking up on you every -week-, but how often has a player had his character -wish- their Superior was there when things went bad? He may be watching over your shoulder, but that doesn't mean he doesn't -care- either. The APG says that angels are rarely bored because they are always -loving-, and it's a good bet Dominic loves his servitors, whether he shows it openly or not. The fact that he polices them so thoroughly to keep them from Falling is a good sign, there. Just a bit of a rant and I encourage other opinions, dissenting or no. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:17:17 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> St. Gabriel's Day Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > What saint got "sproag"? :) > > St Prophyry: "Known for her crusade against idolatry in ancient Rome. > Statues of Venus, which were often prayed to by love-struck girls, were > said to have self-destructed in Porphyry's presence." Porphyry? As in porphyria? I must know more. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:10:57 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> historical in nomine On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Ben Aldred wrote: > I was wondering what people think about the potentials of historical > settings for In nomine are. I think there could be a lot of potential for > historical settings. I was wondering what people's favorite ideas for > these would be. This is something ive been thinking about for a while. Originally I had an idea about setting a campaign in Vietnam. The problem is always how to introduce the celestial element. In this case Id say that the war itself is evil, an infernal plot. Another idea could be mythic britain. Knights and the holy grail and the like. The Crusades is a possiblity too. While writing this I got this idea about setting a campaign in Viking age Scandinavia. You could ignore the celestial element altogether and just use an ethereal campaign. I wouldnt allow the players to be famous gods like thor and odin, but maybe Valkyres or elves. What do you think? Håvard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:17:59 +0000 From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction Prodigal writes >You forgot one of the Choirs... > >Menunim: True-life stories about people overcoming adversity. > The Menunite wouldn't write fiction, that's too much like leading the readers. Ghostwriting for others would be more their style if they had to write at all; but they're more inclined to remind people of the adage that 'everyone has a book in them'. - -- Mark Baker (L'Ange de l'Abime) aka. Simeon, Mercurian of Novalis aka. Rebekkah, Menunite of Blandine "Some of my best friends are demons. You know where you stand with them." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:57:25 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas On Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:04:09PM +0000, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >Hell. H&H was sort of basic and unsatisfying, but this is where angels > >and demons spend most of their time. Failing that, IN Stygia and/or IN > >Shal-Mari. > > Where angels spnd most of their time? Not if you are a favoured servitor, > keeping you in the Celestial Realm is a waste of a resource they (which > ever side) want you fighting the [good/bad] fight [down/up] on earth. > Don't they? > Whether true or not, this is largely irrelevant. It's stuff that any angel or demon should know, as they spent their formative years in the Celestial Realm. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I shall stomp upon all who oppose me. The stomping shall be swift. The stomping shall be painful. And I shall show no mercy In all of my stomping. Amen." - Jeff Tidball philosophises. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:00:37 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> historical in nomine On Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 03:51:57PM -0500, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > Or Spain during the Inquisition? > The whole period during which Spain was under Hapsburg rule is of interest, because of the potential that existed for Europe to be dominated utterly by one dynasty. IMC, Janus was rather heavily involved in preventing that, through encouraging privateers, tax revolts, etc. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I shall stomp upon all who oppose me. The stomping shall be swift. The stomping shall be painful. And I shall show no mercy In all of my stomping. Amen." - Jeff Tidball philosophises. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:58:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> St. Gabriel's Day Steel Angel wrote: > Porphyry? As in porphyria? I must know more. Not really "as in," no. "Porphyry" is a purplish, semi-precious stone; the word is sometimes used as a name, as with St. Porphyry; cf. girls named "Ruby," "Beryl," or "Pearl." "Porphyria" is a disease involving excess sensitivity to light and abnormal metabolism of a class of chemicals called "porphyrins." The common linguistic element in all this is the Greek word "porphyra," meaning purple. Both the rock and the bio-chemicals are purple. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:07:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Emily K. Dresner wrote: > 8. A suggestion from elsewhere was IN Religion - a treatment of > Judaism, Christianity and Islam from the POV of Heaven and Hell. A further suggestion: Rather than have the truth-status of each religion be canonically determined OR undetermined, subdivide, and create guidelines for IN in which each religion, in turn, is true. We've done things like this on the list. I wrote up some IN Christian mods, and Jo Hart did some IN Jewish mods. You can have additional versions in which celestials know that all three are wrong, and in which celestials are as divided on the issue as mortals. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:54:41 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> In Defense of Dominic Steel Angel wrote on 25 March 1999 >I forget who originally posted this: > >> >>>Incidentally, I see a lot of agitation on this list as to what a pain in >> >>>the wazoo Dominic is, or Uriel, but does anyone beside me think Jordi >> >>>should be added to this list? His political power is less than >> >>>Dominic's, but it says in the APG (I think) that if he'd had his way he >> >>>would have destroyed all humans, and had to be talked out of it. > > Poor Dominic, everyone's always picking on Dominic. He supported Uriel, >he persecuted Michael and Gabriel, he's a Nazi. (well okay, not a Nazi, >but Asmodeus comes off -great- when you RP him as an SS officer) Myself, >I tend to -like- playing angels under Dominic because his Word is very >-defined-, moreso than some of the others. Personally, I have to stop >myself from saying 'Justice' instead of 'Judgement', since I doubt the >simple meaning of 'Judging others' is Dominic's job and he doesn't have >some external standards to adhere to. The way I see it his Word is *so* Judgement. As I see it yes Judgement may be Dominic deciding the punishment of a sinner, but that's just a side thing, Judgement is about choosing between Right and Wrong. The law stuff is just to try and help people make the right decision. When I first got IN I didn't like Dommie, but when I got H&H and read the bit where Lucifer offered Dominic the position of Demon of Judgement and hw wavered for a moment, but he stood up against and "told the shining Archangel 'No!' ", I just saw the Word in a completely different light. To me that action is symbolises all that is most important in Judgement. >And from the books, you get the >impression that Dominic is often -right- in some of his 'persecutions' >and he -does- listen and back off when needed (as he did when Yves asked >him to pardon Gabriel). Michael was pardoned -not- because he was right, >but because he was -needed-, and Gabriel is well...let's just say that >from a certain point of view, Dominic's intuition there was somewhat >correct. She has never faced trial, I think it would be found that she commited no crime (I actually think Dominic is *usually* right) > Overall, I see a trend to diss Dominic because he is an unwavering >authority figure, which is, let's face it, unpopular, This is why I feel sorry for Dominic, because trying to make people choose Right from Wrong is a very hard thing and there is need for punishment. And the job of deciding sho needs to be punished is a dirty and cynical one, ideally Seraphs should seek Truth not Lies. In order to do his job he has to be a paradox, he has to against his very nature, and does he get a scrap of praise, no (well maybe a scap, you know what I mean), he gets hated because generally people don't want the Truth they want to hear everything is all right (Hmmm, I've heard something very similar v. recently). Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Like the flower and the scent of summer, Like the sun and the shine. Well the Truth may come in strange disguises, Send a message to your mind" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:26:20 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction From: Mark Baker >Prodigal writes >>You forgot one of the Choirs... >> >>Menunim: True-life stories about people overcoming adversity. >> >The Menunite wouldn't write fiction, that's too much like leading the >readers. That's why I figured them as writing accounts of actual inspiring events. Relating how someone managed to work their way past what others would find insurmountable obstacles sounds like the sort of thing the Menunim were made to do, at least to me. *g* >Ghostwriting for others would be more their style if they had >to write at all; but they're more inclined to remind people of the adage >that 'everyone has a book in them'. I could see them as copy editors too, now that you mention it... Azzur, Malakim of the Sword, in Service to Protection ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:30:52 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> historical in nomine On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > This is something ive been thinking about for a while. Originally I had an > idea about setting a campaign in Vietnam. The problem is always how to > introduce the celestial element. In this case Id say that the war itself > is evil, an infernal plot. That's rather too simplistic, I think. I'd say that it was caused by humans, and was no more or less inherently evil than any other war in history. Of course, both sides would get involved pretty quickly. It could very easily turn into a struggle between Kronos and Yves for the Fate/Destiny of individuals and whole nations. (What those Destinies and Fates may be, and whether or not any of them were actually achieved is open to debate and GM decision.) Michael would be involved to an extent, simply because it has to do with his Word (although he might be involved on *both* sides, encouraging heroism and the principles of duty - I don't think he'd really pick sides). Baal would be involved mostly if Kronos was involved (to support the War), and to a lesser degree to attempt to thwart Michael's plans. Gabriel would have a field day. There's cruelty on both sides to punish. Belial would have some kicks as well (napalm and arclight missions would appeal to him). I could go on and on, but I think you see my point. > While writing this I got this idea about setting a campaign in Viking age > Scandinavia. You could ignore the celestial element altogether and just > use an ethereal campaign. I wouldnt allow the players to be famous gods > like thor and odin, but maybe Valkyres or elves. I like this. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1177 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.