From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 25 17:10:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23874 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:10:07 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA31715 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:11:51 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:11:51 -0600 Message-Id: <199903252311.RAA31715@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1178 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1178 In this digest: Re: IN> Campaign background seed Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade IN> Mariel, DP of Oblivion Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> In Defense of Dominic Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:51:00 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Campaign background seed I like this -- your about to become very unpopular in my game, Anders. MWAHAHAHAHA................... Tom Timberlake, evil mean nasty undead GM [just ask my players!] - -- "it's a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milkbone underwear" Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:08:17 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > And while we're outlining what we want, here's another one: a book on Words and > the Word-bound. Not the sexiest topic, but one that gets discussed a _lot_ > here. A Liber book that deals with such would be really useful. I like this, especially if we get some idea of different AAs would affect the Words -- Justice under David vs. Justice under Dominic, Yves, or Novalis, for example. And also, how having different Choirs filling the different slots -- Seraph as Angel of Justice, to continue the example, would handle things differently, "see" the Word differently than a Cherub or Mercurian. I think it would be just as well to not name and fill all the slots in the book, so GMs could use this as a way or rewarding players, even if the GM doesn't use exactly what is in the book, the "Liber" version could at least spark some ideas, jump-starting the GMs own imagination. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "it's a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milkbone underwear" Cheers PS.... Anyone got any ideas on how Odin would hold court? My players have chased Loki to Valhalla, and are in the midst of what remains of the Einheriar, with Odin standing there, Gungnir in hand. They are operating _far_ from their normal fields of operation, in the Far Marches, on Loki's [and Odin's] home-turf, with no close-by backups. And Odin does have a Kin-oath with Loki. And all of Asgard remembers Uriel's Purge.... Help? Suggestions??? thanks, tt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:16:56 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Martin Arnold wrote: > Richard: "Reversed in which way? Blandine killing the dragons, or the > dragons (et al) winning the Crusade?" > > The latter is what I originally intended, but I'm open to ideas! > > Maybe Blandine mde Uriel her scapegoat na dGOd was in on the whole scam > hence Uriel's disappearence - he was just about to spill the beans! Interesting, but that wasn't what I was thinking. I was hinting at an alternate Crusade, in which it was *Blandine* who decided it was necessary and conducted the war. Something like this. THE DREAM CRUSADE In the first century AD, Blandine noticed a disturbing trend in the Vale of Dreams. The dreamscapes of mortals in her realm were increasingly being overrun with ethereal spirits - parasites draining the Essence of humanity. These spirits took the form of pagan gods and monsters, and sometimes even claimed to be messengers of Heaven. Mortals accepted these spirits at face value, believing their words and giving them worship. This Essence drain left the mortal dreamers weakened and less able to resist their slide into the Vale of Nightmares. This could not be tolerated, if Blandine was to promote the Word of Dreams. The Servitors of Dreams were ordered into action in the Vale. At first, they appeared to mortals in their dreams, warning against the lies of the ethereal spirits, and encouraging them to serve Heaven. This led to confrontations with the ethereals who, jealous of their Essence reserves, attempted to persuade mortal dreamers to continue serving them. Increasingly, these confrontations became violent. Finally, Blandine could see no choice but to issue an ultimatum: the spirits of the Marches must no longer meddle in the affairs of Humanity. If they continued to do so, then there would be war. The ethereals assumed Blandine was bluffing. She wasn't. A two-pronged attack was launched against the ethereals, one in the Marches and one in the Corporeal. The Servitors and Soldiers of Dreams struck at the Corporeal temples and holy sites of the ethereals, pulling them down and scattering or killing their followers. In the Marches, the ethereals found themselves under siege as the Servitors of Dreams killed them where they found them and hunted them back to their domains. As the Crusade heated up, Blandine crafted a special dream for a mortal emperor. Constantine, fighting to unify his empire, beheld a vision of a cross and heard the words "Under this sign conquer". He did as Blandine hoped, adopting Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire and banning all others. Following in their Archangel's footsteps, other Servitors of Dreams inspired warriors and missionaries to campaign against the pagan gods. Unfortunatly, with Blandine's attentions focused on her war against the ethereals, the Vale of Dreams was left mostly untended. Marauders from the Vale of Nightmares stole across the border, assaulting mortal dreamscapes and dragging them into the realm of Beleth. Baal also took advantage of the chaos, offering the scattered ethereals sanctuary in Hell in exchange for service. Heaven itself was not left unscathed. The other Archangels began to polarize, some in favor of the Crusade and some against. Finally, to avoid a second War in Heaven, Uriel directed Dominic to bring Gabriel before the Seraphim Council. Blandine was unrepentant, saying that she had done no wrong and that her actions had served her Word. Some railed against her: Jordi called her murderer, for destroying the unicorns and the dragons; Eli pointed to the chaos in the Vale of Dreams; Gabriel pointed out the sufferings of the mortals who were now ravaged unprotected by the Servitors of Nightmares. Others stood with her: Uriel himself spoke of how the ethereals had overstepped their bounds, Marc demonstrated how the ethereal Essence-theft had weakened Heaven's reserves. Before judgement could be passed, God intervened. Blandine was called into the higher Heavens. In the aftermath the Seraphim Council needed someone to shephard the Marches. Raham, the Angel of Hope and one of Blandine's old Servitors, was named Archangel of Hope and given the task. Not all of the Servitors of Dreams followed Raham, however. Some of them vowed to continue the Crusade, protecting the Vale of Dreams from the ethereal marauders. These became the Tsayadim, the Dream Stalkers of ethereal nightmares. Comments? I've got ideas for the other Archangels as well, if anyone wants to see them. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:08:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade It certainly throws a different light on Blandine. It hangs together about as well as Uriel's story. What does Uriel busy himself with, when he gets to stick around our planes? Things like the development of monasticism and chivalry? Since you offer, got anything on Marc? He seems a rather overlooked Archangel. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:21:58 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > It certainly throws a different light on Blandine. It hangs > together about as well as Uriel's story. What does Uriel busy > himself with, when he gets to stick around our planes? Things > like the development of monasticism and chivalry? Uriel gets into a lot of things: monasticism (chivalry probably falls under the Angel of the Sword), the Reformation (trying to purify the corruption which had crept in), Islam (directly for a while, and then indirectly through the Angel of Faith), Tao and Buddhism, and an assortment of other things. Being an ancient Archangel he isn't as involved in mortal affairs, except for where they intersect his Word. > Since you offer, got anything on Marc? He seems a rather > overlooked Archangel. I'll need to think about it a little. I have the feeling it will be conducted like a hostile corporate takeover, however. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:43:50 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas At 10:07 AM -0500 3/25/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Emily K. Dresner wrote: > >> 8. A suggestion from elsewhere was IN Religion - a treatment of >> Judaism, Christianity and Islam from the POV of Heaven and Hell. > > A further suggestion: Rather than have the truth-status of > each religion be canonically determined OR undetermined, subdivide, > and create guidelines for IN in which each religion, in turn, is > true. > > We've done things like this on the list. I wrote up some > IN Christian mods, and Jo Hart did some IN Jewish mods. > > You can have additional versions in which celestials know that > all three are wrong, and in which celestials are as divided > on the issue as mortals. Or you could work it so that all three are right, at least from the point of view of the people in it. Which is my preferred stance. Just imagine the Seraph arguments. On the other hand, it would explain how different Seraphs could support different religions as they seem to in Canon. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:52:17 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > Comments? I've got ideas for the other Archangels as well, if anyone > wants to see them. Interesting. I actually find it more reasonable than the existing version, except for the attack on the corporeal plane - I can't see Blandine killing humans just for being wrong. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:56:36 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Mariel, DP of Oblivion Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion "The world is nothing, forget it…" Mariel was the loneliest Elohite in Heaven. All she craved was company; no cherub would love her, no Seraph could understand the truth of her loneliness and no Mercurian could be her friend. Everyone was too busy being selfless to notice her Elohite heart drowning in unacknowledged sorrow. Then one day, she simply acted on that sadness. In the midst of celestial rebellion, she hid in a quiet little corner of Yves library and cried herself to sleep, after pounding on the shelves and throwing the tomes around in frustration. Upon waking her loneliness had taken on a tangible aspect - an emptiness. The Library's consciousness rejected her like an abandoned child, from then on she knew she had changed somehow. Mariel didn't feel sad anymore; she just felt empty. As she wandered through the Eternal City she found that reaction becoming more common, and more enticing; it became like a welcome friend. The nothingness had an overcast appeal of its own. With her new emptiness came the ability to inflict in others what she had felt all along, and soon the inhabitants of Heaven - survivors of the battle with Lucifer - denied her, which only served to fuel her 'feelings'. Soon a vast pit of agony and despair welled up in her, the great light of Heaven became too painful to bear and she wandered to Heaven's outermost regions to the border of the Marches. No on noticed as she quietly walked away into darkness, no sleep was lost. Several lonely days later, as we might perhaps reckon them, Mariel, now Habbalah, reached the Gates of Hell. She slipped past the dual servants of Dominic who were too busy spit-polishing the iron in preparation to notice. It wasn't until a millennium later, when Mariel had found herself a silent cranny in the Pit that Lucifer noticed. Even Mariel couldn't make the devil forget what was happening to his glorious kingdom as her influence began to desolate the surrounding hellscape. Lucifer paid Mariel a visit and found her in sombre meditation under a grey and leafless tree corpse. Lucifer tried in vain for a whole night to rouse this upstart from her state. Finally, in what elsewhere would be morning, Mariel responded and deigned to greet the Lord of the Damned - - with absolutely no sign whatsoever. Lucifer laughed, as is his wont on certain occasions. He acknowledged Mariel and crowned her Princess of Oblivion. He let her keep her new home as her own principality. Mariel left the place desolate with only the tree as a landmark (more for the benefit of her servants than anything else). Mariel was instrumental in forming one of Hell's most picturesque landmarks, the river Lethe, the tide of forgetfulness, only no one seems to ever remember this. Not that Mariel cares. All the souls in her domain, those whose forgetfulness in life cost them dearly, drink from this water and so are among those in Hell who have no memory or recollection of any other existence. Her servants know the truth, but are forbidden to speak it. Mariel sees no reason to punish them further beyond inspiring in them great loneliness and emptiness. Like Saminga Mariel, has a tendency to strip-mine human souls, reducing them to literal Oblivion. She feels justified in this because it's part of her word and therefore only fitting. Unlike Saminga this isn't done as an aggreisve militaristic posture, neither is Mariel building a secret army. She has no desire to take over Hell. This of course doesn't win her any friends, although she has no special love for Saminga either. Mariel's influence on earth is considerable. The emptiness at the heart of her grey soul ha found it's way into the teachings of many cultures. Some refer to it as Nirvana, others just speak simply of emptiness, but in the east Mariel's word has become deep-rooted. Some have claimed that BUddha's evil cousin, Mara, is an aspect of Mariel. Also anywhere the past is ruthlessly erased, whether by book burnings or enforced ignorance, Mariel's wings are spread overhead. Her grey cloud has no silver lining. Among her peers, Mariel is often overlooked and forgotten. Needless to say she plays very little part in diabolical politics. Thos that would court her favour have to make a tremendous effort to remember why they are doing and what they want. Oftentimes Mariel sits in on a council debate and stares out the window, failing to even get noticed. It is rumoured that Heaven breathes a sigh of relief at this, for if the infernal court were ever to have to make a unanimous vote in favour of Armageddon, their ignorance and forgetfulness of Mariel would render that impossible. Dissonance It is dissonant for demons of Oblivion to have their work remembered accurately. Other people may be engineered to take the credit, but if one such demon were ever to become a famous historical figure in history (and not some nobody dead in an alley) he would be destroyed by Mariel and forgotten by his peers. It is also dissonant for them to help humans with anything they have themselves forgotten. "I cant find my car keys!", "sorry mate I cant help you there. I haven't seen them". Band attunements Balseraph Balseraph in service to Oblivion may add their Celestial forces to any resonance attempt that enforces or encourages a humans forgetfulness. ("You'd forgotten about that hadn't you…") Djinn Stalkers in service to Mariel may add their celestial forces to the Target number of any attempt to remove an unwanted attunement, providing they never see that person again. If they do they will receive two points of dissonance as a sign of Mariel's displeasure! Calabim A destroyer may choose to use his resonance to break down a victim's memory. Use the Check Digit to divine how much memory is affected (on a 1, maybe only a few hours worth, on a 6, perhaps a few years worth!). If he ever fails a resonance roll he can choose to inflict this effect on himself (suing the resonance's failed Check Digit) without taking dissonance instead. Or he can lash out as usual with no extra penalties! Habbalah Mariel's psychic surgeons suffer no ill effects whenever they screw up a resonance roll based on the emptiness attribute. They may also choose to use their resonance to reduce the level of emotion the target is currently experiencing, using the Check Digit as a guide. Lilim Daughters of Oblivion who detect a Need within a person that corresponds to emptiness (perhaps they are lonely, or enlightened!) or forgetfulness (they need to find something they thought they had lost perhaps) can add their Celestial Forces to the level of Geas they may hold over that person. Shedim Mariel's corrupters have a unique talent; they may appear in celestial form without being noticed at all by mortals. All other rules apply (if they remain without a host for ten minutes they get yanked back to Hell etc). Impudites Instead of taking essence, these Takers may steal the memories of their victims, once charmed. Use the amount of essence normally taken as the 'Check Digit' for the purposes of determining how much memory can be taken. Servitor Attunements Forget-me-not With this attunement, demons of oblivion can simply cause a target to forget to do something. In order to do this, the demon must ensure that the target changes his current circumstance in some way (making him leave the room, get out of the car, etc) and then spend a point of essence and make a Will roll. This can be resisted. Desolation This ability allows the demon to drain essence. By spending essence he can simply dry up the target's resource of essence. This has a draining effect on the demon's psyche as well however. For each point spent, the demon may drain a point from his target (which can be anything known and capable of containing essence). Immediately afterwards he must make Will roll (minus the amount of essence he spent) to avoid stunning himself for that many turns. Distinctions Knight of Oblivion Anyone who loses touch with one of Mariel's Knights for more than six months, will not be able to remember him. He will seem like a stranger to all intents and purposes. Captain of Amnesia Similarly, anyone who loses touch with a Captain of Oblivion for more than one month will also not be able to remember him. Baron of Nothingness Once more, but this time Mariel's Barons can only be remembered if the person has remained in touch for at least one day; any longer and he will not be able to remember him at all. Relations Allied: Kronos Associated: Saminga, Asmodues, Nybbas, Kobal Hostile: None Enemy: None Basic Rites: · Shredding very important documents · Drinking to unconsciousness · Giving a Buddhist discourse for an hour Chance of Invocation: 2 (servants usually forgot the minutiae of a visit from Mariel, leaving only the urge to do something important) Invocation Modifiers* 1. An empty room 2. A funeral 3. An unconscious drunk 4. A room of meditators 5. Someone with long term memory loss 6. Someone thought to be missing in action * Graveyard Greg came up with some crackers for his version of Mariel which may or may not already have seen print here. I might nick 'em if he lets me! ~g~ "Confusion shall be my epitaph" Martin Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:55:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Or you could work it so that all three are right, at least from the > point of view of the people in it. Which is my preferred stance. Tricky, since the Koran is quite explicit about Jesus NOT being the Son of God. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:04:23 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> In Defense of Dominic At 3:54 PM +0000 3/25/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> Poor Dominic, everyone's always picking on Dominic. He supported Uriel, >>he persecuted Michael and Gabriel, he's a Nazi. (well okay, not a Nazi, >>but Asmodeus comes off -great- when you RP him as an SS officer) Myself, >>I tend to -like- playing angels under Dominic because his Word is very >>-defined-, moreso than some of the others. Personally, I have to stop >>myself from saying 'Justice' instead of 'Judgement', since I doubt the >>simple meaning of 'Judging others' is Dominic's job and he doesn't have >>some external standards to adhere to. > > The way I see it his Word is *so* Judgement. As I see it yes Judgement may > be Dominic deciding the punishment of a sinner, but that's just a side > thing, Judgement is about choosing between Right and Wrong. The law stuff > is just to try and help people make the right decision. Judgement isn't *only* the act of judging. It's also common sense. "Using good judgement." In short, Judgement is the act of making correct choices -- not just about right and wrong, but in all things. When you buy a new car and you pick the one that has the better ratings, holds its resale value and generally performs better over the one that's a thousand dollars less, you're exercising good judgement, and Dominic grows stronger. Dominic is one of my favorite Superiors. Of course, he's also had to make choices. Like whether or not to pursue his Word or remain in the good graces of the others.... > > She has never faced trial, I think it would be found that she commited no > crime (I actually think Dominic is *usually* right) Yeah -- to my knowledge she cracked under inquisition. He likely feels badly about that. Of course -- now she's insane and a threat, and the Inquisition showed just how close to cracking she was, so clearly it wasn't all for naught.... >> Overall, I see a trend to diss Dominic because he is an unwavering >>authority figure, which is, let's face it, unpopular, > > > This is why I feel sorry for Dominic, because trying to make people choose > Right from Wrong is a very hard thing and there is need for punishment. > And the job of deciding sho needs to be punished is a dirty and cynical > one, ideally Seraphs should seek Truth not Lies. In order to do his job he > has to be a paradox, he has to against his very nature, and does he get a > scrap of praise, no (well maybe a scap, you know what I mean), he gets > hated because generally people don't want the Truth they want to hear > everything is all right (Hmmm, I've heard something very similar v. > recently). > Precisely. Dominic pursues the Truth, cutting through the Self-Deception of others. (Self Deception being one of the foundations of Hell, after all.) But most people have deceptions they cling to -- like that a little dissonance is okay, or their non-heavenly actions really don't hurt anyone, or that they can pull their friend out of Discord just fine if they can just keep the Inquisition away from him a little while. Sometimes, these people *are* right. Often, in the case of PCs. But most of the time they're fooling themselves. And, if a GM doesn't mind the occasional tragic ending, they should watch the new Demon skittering off to Hell every now and again, licking their wounds and tasting the bitter dregs of betrayal... only to have the Servitors of Judgement arrive, watch, and shake their heads in sorrow. If only they could have gotten their sooner. If only they had been able to put the Question to the Angel before now... before he Fell.... (But then, I'm sadistic. Ask anyone.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:10:09 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade At 4:08 PM -0500 3/25/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > It certainly throws a different light on Blandine. It hangs > together about as well as Uriel's story. What does Uriel busy > himself with, when he gets to stick around our planes? Things > like the development of monasticism and chivalry? > > Since you offer, got anything on Marc? He seems a rather > overlooked Archangel. > > Earl What Ifs could be *very* fertile. What if the Destruction of Legion claimed Bright, Fiery Gabriel, leaving Fire entirely to Belial? The divine spark of Heaven, that flash of inspiration gets taken over in part by Jean, Archangel of Lightning, but so much of the warmth and spirit of Fire, of Gabriel herself, cannot be reclaimed so simply. Would Raphael, as the Archangel of Knowledge, be the one to reveal the Koran to Mohammod? Would she too crack under the strain of Inquisition? Or would things be very different indeed.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:18:47 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > Comments? I've got ideas for the other Archangels as well, if anyone > > wants to see them. > > Interesting. I actually find it more reasonable than the existing version, > except for the attack on the corporeal plane - I can't see Blandine > killing humans just for being wrong. Perhaps, but I can see a few different ways it could happen. As written, the humans that died were not the primary targets. Except for the ethereal soldiers, that is. They actively chose to support the ethereals she was at war with, and had to face te consequences. Other human casualties were just unlucky enough to be caught in the crossfire, and they were probably at a minimum. Also, I don't think that Archangels see death in the same way that mortals do. A dead human does not cease to exist. They go on to Heaven or Hell (if they have met their Destinies or Fates) or get reincarnated (if they have not). Death is a status change, not the end of the line. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:42:27 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > Comments? I've got ideas for the other Archangels as well, if anyone > wants to see them. I liked this, but you may be making a mistake in hewing so close to canonical history. I think that Blandine, having made herself less of a flashpoint on issues than the Archangel of Purity will ever be able to, would have had a much better chance to come out the Dream Crusade without so many calls for her head. I would be more likely to say that she is still in service. I also think that Uriel's Word might have pushed him into a politically untenable position eventually, even without the Purity Crusade. Also, keeping the Tsayadim doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. In this alternative, Raham is maintaining a much greater continuity with Dreams than any of Uriel's successors did with Purity. I would tend to see the Tsayadim, if such a name is created, as a subset of servitors of Hope rather than as a group of Outcasts. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:33:47 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas At 4:55 PM -0500 3/25/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >> Or you could work it so that all three are right, at least from the >> point of view of the people in it. Which is my preferred stance. > > Tricky, since the Koran is quite explicit about Jesus NOT being > the Son of God. > > Earl Mmm -- I'm a great believer, at least in theory, of what Heinlein called Multiperson Pantheistic Solipsism. I can certainly accept that the Koran is right in calling Jesus *not* the Son of God, and that the various Christian religions are right in saying he *is* the Son of God. How is that possible? Some thoughts: 1) We don't understand the Higher Heavens, and neither do the Archangels. What seem like two contridictory statements to us are very clearly able to be reconciled from the point of view of the beings Above. 2) If we take as possible the idea that Yaweh is actually an extremely powerful Ethereal... it is entirely possible that Yaweh, Jehovah and Allah are themselves a Holy Trinity up there... and while Jesus is the Son of one of Jehovah, he's not the son of Allah. Therefore, the New Testement and the Koran are both correct. (Of course, that brings up the issue of "There is No God but Allah and Mohammad is his Prophet, but hey, one reconcilation at a time!) 3) Alien spores. All contridictions can be explained by Alien Spores. They're *everywhere.* - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:34:06 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Or you could work it so that all three are right, at least from the > > point of view of the people in it. Which is my preferred stance. > > Tricky, since the Koran is quite explicit about Jesus NOT being > the Son of God. Hmmm... [Heretical thought approaching] On the cross, Jesus is reported as saying "Eli, Eli, , lama samachthani". This is traditionally interpreted as "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" In In Nomine, thsi could have a different meaning. He could have been adressing his father, saying "Eli, Eli, why hast thou forsaken me?" One take for Jesus is that he is the son of the Archangel Eli, and is a being like the Children of the Grigori. He never claimed (in the Bible I have access to, anyway) to actually be the Son of God; he allowed others to infer it, but he never claimed it himself. He was part of a desire on the part of Heaven to provide a Messiah for Israel, one of the covenant peoples of Heaven. (Not necessarily *the* Messiah, and not the Messiah that Israel was expecting, but *a* messiah to prepare them). This would make the Jews right when they say that Jesus was not the Messiah. He wasn't the one they were expecting. This makes the Christians right when they say that he was Savior and Redeemer. That could have easly been part of his mission. This makes the Christians right when they say that Jesus is the Son of God, and the Jews and Muslims right when they say he is not. "Eli" means "god", as I recall what little Hebrew I know. In a literally accurate but likely to annoy Seraphim way, Yeshua ben Eli would be "Jesus son of god". But Jesus (in this model) would not be the son of God. Hence the confusion. Commentary? Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:42:38 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade At 5:18 PM -0400 3/25/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > >> > Comments? I've got ideas for the other Archangels as well, if anyone >> > wants to see them. >> >> Interesting. I actually find it more reasonable than the existing version, >> except for the attack on the corporeal plane - I can't see Blandine >> killing humans just for being wrong. > > Perhaps, but I can see a few different ways it could happen. As written, > the humans that died were not the primary targets. Except for the > ethereal soldiers, that is. They actively chose to support the ethereals > she was at war with, and had to face te consequences. Other human > casualties were just unlucky enough to be caught in the crossfire, and > they were probably at a minimum. > > Also, I don't think that Archangels see death in the same way that mortals > do. A dead human does not cease to exist. They go on to Heaven or Hell > (if they have met their Destinies or Fates) or get reincarnated (if they > have not). Death is a status change, not the end of the line. Heh. "Back to the foot of the line, buster...." Hm. This gives us more insight on what it means to be Least Divine for the Mercurians. Death means a lot more to them, because they've lost a certain amount of that divine perspective. So, violent action is Dissonant to them, not just because they love man, but because they don't have that essential point of view that says "this too shall pass." - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:49:41 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Eeyore wrote: > > Comments? I've got ideas for the other Archangels as well, if anyone > > wants to see them. > > I liked this, but you may be making a mistake in hewing so close to canonical > history. I see your point, yes. For this, however, I was deliberatly making a parallel history. The others, as I do them, won't necessarily "toe the line". > I think that Blandine, having made herself less of a flashpoint on > issues than the Archangel of Purity will ever be able to, would have had > a much better chance to come out the Dream Crusade without so many calls > for her head. I would be more likely to say that she is still in > service. Quite possibly. My first answer to that is "that's not how I wanted it to work out, though". Besides, remember that I was deliberatly drawing parallels between the canonical Purification Crusade, and this alternate Dream Crusade. The head calling was because she abandoned her duties in the Vale of Dreams, and many mortal souls were lost to Hell as a result. (The assumption is that any Archangel who does this will have to devote a majority of his/her resources to this, reducing the time that can be spent promoting a Word in other ways.) > I also think that Uriel's Word might have pushed him into a politically > untenable position eventually, even without the Purity Crusade. Possibly, yes. However, I think that without the stresses of the Crusade on him, it wouldn't be as bad. He'd probably end up like Dominic (if he wasn't already): disliked and distrusted, but still there. He might have had to step down as leader of Heaven's armies eventually, though. Perhaps there is hope for Laurence in this alternate setting after all. :) > Also, keeping the Tsayadim doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. In > this alternative, Raham is maintaining a much greater continuity with > Dreams than any of Uriel's successors did with Purity. Now that you mention it, I think you're right. > I would tend to see the Tsayadim, if such a name is created, as a subset > of servitors of Hope rather than as a group of Outcasts. Let's see. "Tsayadim" means "hunters", IIRC. They would make a decent subset for the Servitors of Hope. The ones that cross the borders into the Vale of Nightmares and "hunt" the mortal dreamscapes that are ther, in order to bring them back over to the Vale of Dreams. How's that? Richard Gant PS: Marc is next for "Alternate History Month". Any requests after that? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:01:21 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas At 5:34 PM -0400 3/25/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > This makes the Christians right when they say that Jesus is the Son of > God, and the Jews and Muslims right when they say he is not. "Eli" means > "god", as I recall what little Hebrew I know. In a literally accurate but > likely to annoy Seraphim way, Yeshua ben Eli would be "Jesus son of god". > But Jesus (in this model) would not be the son of God. Hence the > confusion. > > Commentary? For the most part, I *like.* However, to my knowledge, Elijah and Eli both mean "Jehovah is God" when applied to a name. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1178 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.