From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Mar 27 10:55:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18724 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:55:36 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA25475 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:58:44 -0600 Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:58:44 -0600 Message-Id: <199903271658.KAA25475@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1181 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, March 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1181 In this digest: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects Re: IN> Dominic and Justice Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) RE: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> o/~ You can fly... o/~ RE: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) RE: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) RE: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade IN> CDaU RE: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> CDaU IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects Re: IN> o/~ You can fly... o/~ Re: IN> Dominic and Justice Re: IN> CDaU ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:05:15 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects At 7:03 PM -0500 3/25/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>> Right. It's plants and machines which require a >special attunement. And insects. <<< > >Hmm -- can't any Kyriotate possess insects, like other animals? I believe that only Jordi's can -- that may have been a ruling of Moriah's or Karakash's, before I came in, because I swear I've known it for quite some time now. I'm not finding it in the current mechanics, though, which is bugging me. Pun not intended. Considering the havoc that a one-flea Kyriotate can get up to, I think it's certainly *safer* to restrict insects to Jordi's lot! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:05:14 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dominic and Justice At 6:50 PM -0800 3/25/99, Janet Anderson wrote: >It was I who in passing mentioned that Dominic was not popular on this >list (or with players in general). I have seen him and his servitors >played less obnoxiously than they are written, and I enjoyed the recent >story posted on what the Servitors of Dominic *ought* to be like (and I >agree). But there's no evidence for it in the book. Actually, you may want to pick up _Heaven & Hell_, which has the expanded writeup of Dominic. In my reading of it he's a far more tragic figure, because he feels ever Fall as a personal failing. He's the overprotective parent, who's sure that all this is his fault, and he has to overachieve. IMC, Dominic wears the cloak so that no one will ever know how much he's hurting. And if he's forced up against the wire, he admits failings, and admits that he cares. But he has to be convinced that *not* admitting it would be unjust, and therefore dissonant to his Word. Otherwise, he keeps his own counsel, and does not say anything. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:05:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. At 3:32 AM -0600 3/26/99, Shadowstar wrote: [...] > I had in mind for a pre-generated character being a Bright Lilim of >Judgement. (Why Judgement? Why not?) (IMC, never, ever get a successful Need-reading on Dominique. Never. Because the Need for someone s/he can trust absolutely, someone who will never betray him, will drown you. Because you're a Lilim, sister, and you can bind to him like no other. You can swear yourself to him hard enough that you'd turn into a puddle of Discord if you betrayed him. You and you alone. It's a bottomless pit of Need. Don't do it, sister, don't do it...) > Naturally this concept would -grate- on the Lilim's sense of freedom, >but then she wound up in Judgement in the -first- place. Channeling one of my characters, who is on the fast-track to Bright... "Freedom sometimes means the freedom to choose one's ties, one's bonds of friendship or love. If you choose to serve out of love, then that's choice, and you get back all you gave -- and more." (Mind, this is the Lilim who says that she knows her Mother isn't nice, but that she loves her Mother anyway. But she's got some reasons for that which are another story.) > Looking at it, I've been wondering what level of Geases would equate to >that level of devotion? They are in the negative, which makes things that >much harder. . . Which is why a Third Geas to: 'Always to renew my Oaths >to my Duty' would seem appropriate in this case. [...] > /FotM/, naturally does have the information on Geases. . . But this >case skirts on the impossible Geas/7 level of believabilty, so I thought >I'd get suggestions in how to solve this quandry. I'd say that if she wished to bind herself to it, that she could make it a "Geas/7." Actually, play with the phrasing, and the "slay evil" may not be a negative anymore. "I shall slay evil whenever it is my choice to make." "I will suicide rather than allow myself to be captured by Hell." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:16:56 -0500 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) >Not evil, then. Selfish. ;) Agreed. >Yes, some of what he did benefitted humanity and Asgard. All of what he >did benefitted _him_. And he was subject to fits of sheer absolute >bastardness. (Yes, I count the creation of Fenris Wolf in this >category.) Well... he WAS a bastard, after all.... >And yes, Odin may have spared him -- but it was only for torture. >Loki's chained under a mountain, bound by the intestines of his son, >with snake venom dripping into his eyes, remember? :) Hey, it's life. :) Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:18:38 -0500 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) >Except: What precisely is the crime of *these* *particular* angels? The Norse >were good with personal responsibility in their legal systems. Your cousin >couldn't get killed for a crime you committed. Unless one of the characters is >a servitor of Purity or has actively harmed Loki, I think they can get off. >But we may be barking up different trees, here. I see your point -- but Odin might take into account the fact that Uriel was not so nitpicky when he dispensed HIS indiscriminate justice. :) Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:18:36 -0800 From: Brian Culver Subject: RE: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. > >Okay, > > > > I had in mind for a pre-generated character being a Bright Lilim of > >Judgement. (Why Judgement? Why not?) > > Not to be negative, but I'm REALLY not sure this'd ever > happen. Can you tell us why she chose to serve Dominic? Long time lurker, first time poster, though I'd give this a shot, because I've been toying with the idea of a Bright Lilim and having a devil of a time picking an Archangel. Anyway, if I were playing this angel, this is how I'd play her. Freedom means information. You cannot be free if you do not know what your choices are. Lilith learned that, and taught her daughters well. Angels who are Falling have asoultely no idea what they are choosing. She knows, she's been there, remember? And she'll do her darndest to make sure no one goes that route unless they are determined to. Her mission is to find those poor celestials who delude themselves into thinking they are not falling, and opening their eyes before they walk blindly off that cliff. Freedom means options. She'll be sure to try to give the unfortunates she finds options, helping Angels work out their dissonance if possible. If not, a triad can give them the choice of pennance and reformation, or the scattering of their forces. they are of course free to choose either. Lilim are most likely to be Dominique's advanced scouts and agents of mercy, but for those who continue down the spiral stair, they waste no time on regret, for they have freely chosen the consequences of that path, be it Falling or Inquisition. that's how I'd play her anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:07:04 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Actually, play with the phrasing, and the "slay evil" may not be > a negative anymore. "I shall slay evil whenever it is my choice to make." > "I will suicide rather than allow myself to be captured by Hell." Well, you can self-geas this, but I don't know that it needs to be a very big one. For such a traitor to Hell, I think a celestial cyanide capsule makes plenty of sense anyways. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:58:56 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> o/~ You can fly... o/~ On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > [Archangel Beth peeks out from behind a bookshelf. For once, she has > wings and a halo instead of horns and a crown. She creeps into view, > followed by a bunch of fluttering relievers. Yaaay! Our beloved Archangel is back! Woo-hoo! > Okay, this is mangled out of a dream I had... Liber Canticorum has > the Songmaster attunement in it. [Casca, faithful Servitor of Archives, makes a mental note to deliver a payment of Essence to his Cherub of Dreams buddy.] > [Beth looks around. There are a bunch of relievers clustered behind > her. "I said there's no canon here! It's not canon! It's just an > idea, okay? Go away! Shoo, shoo!"] "But we're just so thrilled to have you back!" - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:30:24 -0500 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: RE: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. >that's how I'd play her anyway. Interesting. I'm still not sure that those reasons would outweigh a Lilite's need for freedom. Serving Dominic is about as non-free as one can get. Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:04:04 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) NO DINERO SPOILERS!!!!! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "Azrael" wrote: > > >Except: What precisely is the crime of *these* *particular* angels? No particular crime. They are 9-Forcers assigned to investigate the death of an Angel of Protection [slain, like the Demon dead around the corner from the Angel, by Loki], who have managed to trail the killer back to his lair. Most of these Angels were Relievers or newly-fledged at the time of Uriel's Purge. > > The Norse were good with personal responsibility in their legal systems. Your cousin > >couldn't get killed for a crime you committed. Unless one of the characters is > >a servitor of Purity or has actively harmed Loki, I think they can get off. > >But we may be barking up different trees, here. > > I see your point -- but Odin might take into account the fact that Uriel > was not so nitpicky when he dispensed HIS indiscriminate justice. :) All the more reason to be careful themselves -- wouldn't want to sink [the Ethereal's opinion] to _his_ level -- they can do better than that. [turn head and spit at the thought of emulating The Slayer ]. Besides, this is Odin, a smart version of NA's Coyote [Trickster] that we are talking about here -- wielder of Gungnir, the Lawgiver, Runemaster, Overlord of Asgard, the one-eyed meddler -- look at the delay between Sigurd's [?] conception and the forging of the sword that slew Fafnir -- Odin knows how to be patient in order to get his way, when it suits him. My problem is the conflict between Asgard's Supreme Guardian and Overlord on the one side, and Oath-brother to Loki on the other side. I'm tempted to have him pass this one on to Forseti, due to the conflict, and let Forseti make this judgement. [GM's whim: Forseti survived the Purge] [on the other hand, letting Forseti be a casualty and rubbing their noses in the consequences is very tempting...] Tom Timberlake, GM, straddling the fence..... - -- "it's a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milkbone underwear" Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:11:56 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: > Ahem. Loki is NOT a cruel and truly evil bastard. My impression is that this depends on when during the cycle it is -- the closer you get to Ragnarok the more of a bastard Loki is. > I know from my own research into Norse culture that the Norsemen were very > lawful people -- I'm not denying that -- but I think the punishment for the > angels' crime would have to be bloody death, not weregeld. Weregeld is > what you demand when a relative gets killed in a duel or by accident. The > Norse were not good with mercy at all, and I don't think that Odin would > view this situation as one that even REMOTELY called for mercy. I believe weregild remains an alternative to just killing the angels, but it's an *alternative*. Even an accidental death could be cause for a bloodfeud. And at that point most things are legal. But Loki might *prefer* weregild over bloodfeud or other legal reparations. As a tangent: the Norse legal system didn't often execute people per se. It outlawed them, at which point anybody could kill them with no legal repercussions and their family wasn't entitled to weregild or bloodfeud. Anyway, Loki can offer to accept weregild rather than move to have the angels declared outlaws and probably slain on the spot. This is a little tricky because ordinarily you can't haggle over weregild; there's a standard amount for each type of person, and while you can offer more than the standard, the offended party isn't supposed to haggle, just say yes or no. Then again, Loki's not know for abiding by custom.... Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:27:27 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. At 5:30 PM -0500 3/26/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: >Interesting. I'm still not sure that those reasons would outweigh a >Lilite's need for freedom. Serving Dominic is about as non-free as one can >get. Actually, if you check the Dissonance Conditions of the Game and the Sword... There's 2 who are more non-free. O;> But that's pretty rarified company... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:26:15 -0500 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) >All the more reason to be careful themselves -- wouldn't want to sink [the >Ethereal's opinion] to _his_ level -- they can do better than that. [turn Interesting. >head and spit at the thought of emulating The Slayer ]. >Besides, this is Odin, a smart version of NA's Coyote [Trickster] that we I always thought of Loki as Coyote's counterpart. >are talking about here -- wielder of Gungnir, the Lawgiver, Runemaster, >Overlord of Asgard, the one-eyed meddler -- look at the delay between >Sigurd's [?] conception and the forging of the sword that slew Fafnir -- >Odin knows how to be patient in order to get his way, when it suits him. My >problem is the conflict between Asgard's Supreme Guardian and Overlord on >the one side, and Oath-brother to Loki on the other side. I'm tempted to >have him pass this one on to Forseti, due to the conflict, and let Forseti >make this judgement. [GM's whim: Forseti survived the Purge] [on the other >hand, letting Forseti be a casualty and rubbing their noses in the >consequences is very tempting...] It sounds like you have it together.... Azrael, Malakim of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:35:29 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: RE: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: > >that's how I'd play her anyway. > > Interesting. I'm still not sure that those reasons would outweigh a > Lilite's need for freedom. Serving Dominic is about as non-free as one can > get. Not really, no. The Bright Lilim *chose* to serve Judgement, and chose freely. In fact, an argument could be constructed that the Lilim would see Dominic's service as guaranteeing her freedom. After all, The Game and The War are going to really, really want catch her; The War so that they can kill her for "betraying" Hell, and The Game for the same reasone (only with a prolonged execution braodcast over HNN). Dominic checks up once a week, guaranteed. And he knows if you are becoming dissonant, and can deal with it. Sounds safe to me. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:39:36 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Uncle Wolf wrote: > NO DINERO SPOILERS!!!!! > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > > "Azrael" wrote: > > > > >Except: What precisely is the crime of *these* *particular* angels? > > No particular crime. They are 9-Forcers assigned to investigate the death > of an Angel of Protection [slain, like the Demon dead around the corner > from the Angel, by Loki], who have managed to trail the killer back to his > lair. Most of these Angels were Relievers or newly-fledged at the time of > Uriel's Purge. Oh.... Um. I think when bloodfeud is declared there's a certain amount of collective guilt allowed (he killed my brother, I'll kill one of his.) However, that isn't done by the legal system, it's simply *allowed* by the legal system. And killing the angels on those grounds would be declaring bloodfeud on *all* of Heaven for what Uriel did, which is a dumb idea and Odin's far from stupid. On the other hand, I suspect only angels of Protection would have the equivalent of standing on which to charge Loki for *his* crime. Norse law is basically tort law. And just a thought to toss out: IMC Beleth deliberately egged Uriel on by taking in Ethereals she didn't want except to get him madder -- and by sending out her own demons to make it more difficult to avoid Uriel except by becoming subservient to Beleth. This isn't stated in the text, but isn't contradicted either and is somewhat supported by Beleth's reaction to the Crusade. No reason for you to adopt it unless it fits your campaign as well as it fits ours, but Odin *will* know the facts of the matter. He's a canny one and has major divinatory powers, and it's an issue that would matter to him. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:42:26 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade >>>1) Most of Blandine's servitors are Menunim, for whom such direct action would almost certainly be dissonant.<<< I don't think most of Blandine's Servitors are Menunim -- just almost all Menunim are Blandine's Servitors. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:33:51 +0000 From: Paul Golds Subject: IN> CDaU What most bothers me about CDaU is whether these things are going to remain as CDaU forever, or get expanded upon in future sourcebooks. I like the ideas of areas where you make up your own decision about the world, although I'll admit I prefer the 'slightly vague' method used in the Purity Crusade to the 'nope, no one knows' method used for Jessu. What I don't like is the idea that I could expand on one of these themes for my own campaign which I keep as close to canon as practical and then have the answer given to me in another book. If a question is to be left open for future books, I'd like to know about it before I go and spend my time on it myself. On another note, are the books from now on going to be more consistant? It seems the rules that are in the base books (The Player's Guides, and the Libres) are more convenient to use than those in the Revelations cycle. Does anyone else agree that they would have preferred to have had the entire collection of expanded Superior write-ups in one book, and the extra human rules on Sorcery and Soldiers in another, maybe the CPG? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:14:13 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: RE: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. At 6:27 PM -0500 3/26/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 5:30 PM -0500 3/26/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: > >>Interesting. I'm still not sure that those reasons would outweigh a >>Lilite's need for freedom. Serving Dominic is about as non-free as one can >>get. > > Actually, if you check the Dissonance Conditions of the Game and > the Sword... There's 2 who are more non-free. O;> But that's > pretty rarified company... > Beyond Laurence's Dissonance conditions is his active "request" that *all* Bright Lilim get assigned to Sword, for use in the War. If I had a Bright Lilim come up (hasn't happened in my game as yet), Laurence would be the major reason she'd *resist* redemption. Given all of that, I could see a Bright Lilim give herself to Dominic this way. It's *her* choice, and Dominic would protect her. Which, by the way, I believe. We don't get much of a chance to see it, but I imagine Dominic's loyal Servitors have the most devoted Archangel of the bunch protecting them from outside influences. When you spend your day rooting out disloyalty, those you *can* trust become very special to you. A Lilim who effectively sets it up so she'd be destroyed instantly if she betrays you, and you can *see* the Truth of it... do not anger Happy Fun Winged Snake, Bobby. Happy Fun Winged Snake will make your life bad. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:32:29 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> CDaU At 5:33 AM +0000 3/26/99, Paul Golds wrote: > What most bothers me about CDaU is whether these things are going > to remain as CDaU forever, or get expanded upon in future sourcebooks. > > I like the ideas of areas where you make up your own decision about > the world, although I'll admit I prefer the 'slightly vague' method > used in the Purity Crusade to the 'nope, no one knows' method used > for Jessu. What I don't like is the idea that I could expand on one > of these themes for my own campaign which I keep as close to canon > as practical and then have the answer given to me in another book. > If a question is to be left open for future books, I'd like to know > about it before I go and spend my time on it myself. Man, I left Canon behind so quickly it wouldn't matter to me. At the same time, it would seem *very* unlikely to me that the Jesus question would ever be "officially" answered. Among other things, it's one of those points that can *really* invite (no pun intended) the Wrath of God down on a gaming company. > On another note, are the books from now on going to be more consistant? > It seems the rules that are in the base books (The Player's Guides, > and the Libres) are more convenient to use than those in the Revelations > cycle. Does anyone else agree that they would have preferred to have > had the entire collection of expanded Superior write-ups in one book, > and the extra human rules on Sorcery and Soldiers in another, maybe the > CPG? > I believe the CPG does have what you're looking for. I for one would *love* to see the Superior Extended Dance Mixes in one book. I like unified resources. I don't know that they'd much be willing to do that though -- SJGames isn't usually like that. Though it would be a chance to do the extended writeups of the additional Superiors. (Well, except for Furfur. Would anyone out there care if Furfur just sort of disappeared?) - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:03:24 PST From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas >> 2. The History of Hell / The History of Heaven (the Fall). Perhaps you could take a leaf from the book of White Wolf and do something along the lines of the Book of Nod, which has no rules at all, specifically states that it is only one possible interpretation of the truth, and that large sections may be false. Perhaps even In Fiction? For In historical, how about In Rome? lots of scope for corruption for Demons, and the spread of christianity. Only problem would be that you'd have to rewrite Gabriel as sane (well, as sane as any archangel) "Shut up will you? We have one period to do a thousand years of literature." My High School english teacher. Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 04:40:06 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Whistling in the Dark wrote on 27 March 1999 >Which, by the way, I believe. We don't get much of a chance to see >it, but I imagine Dominic's loyal Servitors have the most devoted >Archangel of the bunch protecting them from outside influences. When >you spend your day rooting out disloyalty, those you *can* trust >become very special to you. Unfortunately the Archangel of Judgement Trusts (almost) no-one. I doubt he trusts most of his his servitors, I'd say he trusts Yves' a (very) few other AAs and a few of his high ranking servitors. But apart from with Yves' trust is probably just doubting less. But I'd agree that Dommie is probably amongst the AAs who care most about his servitors, (I'm just not sure I he beats Novalis). Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:11:15 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. At 4:40 AM +0000 3/27/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Whistling in the Dark wrote on 27 March 1999 >>Which, by the way, I believe. We don't get much of a chance to see >>it, but I imagine Dominic's loyal Servitors have the most devoted >>Archangel of the bunch protecting them from outside influences. When >>you spend your day rooting out disloyalty, those you *can* trust >>become very special to you. > > > Unfortunately the Archangel of Judgement Trusts (almost) no-one. I doubt > he trusts most of his his servitors, I'd say he trusts Yves' a (very) few > other AAs and a few of his high ranking servitors. But apart from with > Yves' trust is probably just doubting less. I disagree. His Servitors are about the *only* Angels he *does* trust, because he checks them for dissonance weekly and he's always in contact with them. They are the foundation he rests on, since he can't be everywhere. So one he doesn't trust for some reason has the Inquisition brought to bear quickly. > But I'd agree that Dommie is probably amongst the AAs who care most about > his servitors, (I'm just not sure I he beats Novalis). Mm... Novalis is Loving and Caring, yes. Very very much. But which is more powerful -- the love that comes from one who loves her enemies and friends alike, or the one for whom love is a precious gift, rarely given and always as an act of trust? Though I'm sure Novalis *shows* that love far more freely. There are likely a number of the Servitors Dominic cares the *most* for who feel he probably doesn't like them much.... Dominic is likely very lonely indeed. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:26:06 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: > I always thought of Loki as Coyote's counterpart. Loki is certainly -the- Trickster among the Norse gods, but Odin wasn't bad at it either. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:28:14 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) I just thought of something... -If- the Aesir accepted Uriel's crusade as a war, there would hardly be any question of weregild or bloodfeud, would there? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 02:50:45 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) EDG wrote: > Yes, some of what he did benefitted humanity and Asgard. All of what he > did benefitted _him_. And he was subject to fits of sheer absolute > bastardness. (Yes, I count the creation of Fenris Wolf in this > category.) And let's never forget -Baldur-. -That- was purely nasty, and his other two kids weren't exactly the most pleasant of beings either, although Hel -did- serve a purpose, Iormungander (don't ask me to spell this with the English alphabet, we're lacking a letter, okay, we're lacking a few) was just there to prophetically kill Thor. > And yes, Odin may have spared him -- but it was only for torture. > Loki's chained under a mountain, bound by the intestines of his son, > with snake venom dripping into his eyes, remember? :) Which, according to the Norse tradition and sense of justice, means his crime was the -worst- that could be committed. Norse weren't really as big on torture as people think. -Killing- sure, but only when it was justified. (Note: conquest counts as 'justified' as long as it isn't wholesale genocide) - - Abracax: hedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 03:17:00 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. James M. Zoshak wrote: > Interesting. I'm still not sure that those reasons would outweigh a > Lilite's need for freedom. Serving Dominic is about as non-free as one can > get. I don't see -how-. Dominic doesn't make a big deal about -how- you do your job, as long as you -do- it. Remember, he works with -The Game- when he must, and so do his servitors. Working for Dominic is basically having to make sure angels don't fall, and demons don't get -any- info on Heaven's side of things, while Heaven gets all the info on Hell it can. Not terribly restrictive unless you start gaining Dissonance, and if you go tell servitors of Judgement right away, you really won't get into too much trouble because they -want- you not to Fall and they'd hate having to scatter your Forces. I see servitors of Judgement as having a very...intense sort of comraderie, rather like the Malakim and that the sentiment, "Dissonant? In danger of Falling? Not on -my- watch!" is probably pretty common. Just my take after re-re-reading, Judgement are bastards because -anything- is better than Falling, in their eyes. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots and -sometimes- Daniel, Malakite of Judgement ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:09:51 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) At 09:26 AM 3/27/99 +0100, you wrote: >On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: > >> I always thought of Loki as Coyote's counterpart. > >Loki is certainly -the- Trickster among the Norse gods, but Odin wasn't >bad at it either. > exactly, one must remember that cleverness was one of the most valued characteristics for norse heroes. I would go for a riddle contest or something, maybe Odin says that the characters will die unless they can answer three questions. he may even give them some time to find the answers, supervised time of course. That's what I would do. I you need suggestions for appropriate riddles try mythology Norse is great but so is Celtic. Ben Elohite of Destiny(and a dissonant one at that) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:19:56 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas >For In historical, how about In Rome? lots of scope for corruption for >Demons, and the spread of christianity. Only problem would be that you'd >have to rewrite Gabriel as sane (well, as sane as any archangel) > well that is almost a given. Any historical period has a change in the status of Archangels and Demon princes. Go back far enough Uriel is still kicking and Haagenti and Nybbas are still just demons. Laurence is still an angel of Michael(I think) and politics are much different. Jordi doesn't hate Humanity and so forth. Ben Elohite of Stone ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:30:18 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 7:03 PM -0500 3/25/99, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>> Right. It's plants and machines which require a > >special attunement. And insects. <<< > > > >Hmm -- can't any Kyriotate possess insects, like other animals? > > I believe that only Jordi's can -- that may have been a ruling of > Moriah's or Karakash's, before I came in, because I swear I've > known it for quite some time now. I'm not > finding it in the current mechanics, though, which is bugging me. > > Pun not intended. > > Considering the havoc that a one-flea Kyriotate can get up to, > I think it's certainly *safer* to restrict insects to Jordi's > lot! In Nomine, p.191, "Only Jordi's Kyriotates may manifest as insects." - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:33:05 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> o/~ You can fly... o/~ I think this is quite a good idea and i especially like the format of the telling. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:42:17 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Dominic and Justice Janet Anderson wrote: > > When I read the parts in the book about Michael and Gabriel, I don't see > them as examples of Dominic's being right. On the contrary, I thought > that God suppressed Dominic's case against Michael, not because Michael > didn't *do* the things Dominic said he did, but because the things > Michael did *weren't wrong.* And he persecuted Gabriel for political > reasons, because the new religion she announced threatened the one he > was supporting. (True, she is as nutty as a fruit cake now, but that > was *after* the trial. So it's his fault if it's anyone's.) Yah, this is a problem. It should be trumpeted from the rooftops that ALMOST ALWAYS, Dominic ends up being right, or letting the innocent go after being judged. The occasions where he is wrong (or is overruled) that are mentioned in the books are the rare exceptions. He's a hard being, with a hard job. But he also liberates as well as punishes. A very valid task for his servitors would be: Go to prison X and release all who are wrongly imprisoned. His most high-profile stuff involves AAs and angels, but he's responsible for Judgment on Earth as well. For every triad on a mission there are at least hundreds of angels (and countless relievers) on earth both punishing the wicked and bringing relief to the downtrodden. Come armageddon, assuming Heaven wins of course, he will judge the infernal hordes. And that, as they say, will be that. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:52:06 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> CDaU Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Would anyone out > there care if Furfur just sort of disappeared?) Heh. There are several amusing/interesting campaigns that can be based around Furfur. At the very least, he can be a model for one way someone can reach Princehood. The fun part is for PCs... do you risk it all and take a chance on a newcomer? If so, you can garner great power in both the short and long run. OTOH, you might have your forces stripped from you in a most painful fashion. In my campaign, whenever a new Prince hits the scene, demons are allowed to ally with him/her without immediate retribution from their former masters. Lucifer apparently prefers it this way. This says nothing about future retribution, of course. A wise new DP will usually find some way of repaying the other DPs or making strategic alliances. Furfur doesn't strike me as the sort to do this, though! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1181 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.