From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 30 00:40:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00873 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:40:15 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id AAA04236 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:41:28 -0600 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:41:28 -0600 Message-Id: <199903300641.AAA04236@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1184 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 30 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1184 In this digest: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> CDaU Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> CDaU Re: IN> Uriel & Christianity Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> CDaU Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? IN> Malakim, Attraction (I think) and Possession Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> CDaU IN> Uriel & Christianity Re: IN> Malakim, Attraction (I think) and Possession Re: IN> CDaU Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> CDaU Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> CDaU Re: IN> CDaU Re: IN> CDaU RE: IN> CDaU Re: IN> CDaU Re: IN> CDaU Re: IN> CDaU RE: IN> INcyclopedia down. Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:00:57 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Erm Songs of Symphony cost 4 essence per shot, not really that practical. True. > They only mimic one part of the Cherubs Res. remember the bonus of the > cherub's Celestial forces to any roll to protect their charge. So? Oath #3: Never allow anyone to whom you are attuned to be harmed. It fits in with the description of Malakim, too - if you attract one's attention, you're going to be out of the jam you're in fairly quickly, either because they'll beat off the threat, or because you'll be on your way to the afterlife. > Can they tell you where the nearest libary is? Sorry, obviously you would > use 4 essence and use a song of Symphony if you needed that kind of > information. That's only Ofanim of Marc that can do that, iirc. :) > Can they allow you to do *anything * quickly? I don't think Ofanim can do _anything_ quickly... just move fast. > Wait, are you trying to say those with Songs of Harmony would use them on > themselves to think rationally? It could happen. > If heaven went round using songs for everything, Hell would notice pretty > damn quickly, and the War could not be conducted as it is now, try guiding > a soul to their destiny when every action you take to do it alerts the > local demons that you're interested in this one. So? "Oh, jeez, there's a Malakite on that one... don't go near him!" - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:08:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> CDaU At 1:50 PM -0500 3/29/99, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >At 1:26 PM 3/29/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Just as a note, count up the pages... And how much the pages cost... >>Words per page are approximately 625. > >Counter-note: Extended Superior Dance Mixes (which is a damned cool >appellation and will be stolen) for all the presently available superiors >in a single book, not just the ones that have been done so far. 27 Superiors (not counting the minors), 12 pages per. I don't think anyone's buying the *dictionary* here... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:10:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? At 2:00 PM -0500 3/29/99, EDG wrote: >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> They only mimic one part of the Cherubs Res. remember the bonus of the >> cherub's Celestial forces to any roll to protect their charge. > >So? Oath #3: Never allow anyone to whom you are attuned to be harmed. >It fits in with the description of Malakim, too - if you attract one's >attention, you're going to be out of the jam you're in fairly quickly, >either because they'll beat off the threat, or because you'll be on your >way to the afterlife. Expanded Cherub Resonance -- the Nemesis and Protection abilities... >> Can they tell you where the nearest libary is? Sorry, obviously you would >> use 4 essence and use a song of Symphony if you needed that kind of >> information. > >That's only Ofanim of Marc that can do that, iirc. :) Nope -- Ofanim get to find "the nearest [x]" where [x] is a general location (gas station, library, etc.) which is in the public consciousness. (Which Tethers on Earth *aren't*. But they are in the celestial realms, probably...) >> Can they allow you to do *anything * quickly? > >I don't think Ofanim can do _anything_ quickly... just move fast. Expanded resonance tricks in the APG. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:09:45 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Nope -- Ofanim get to find "the nearest [x]" where [x] is a general > location (gas station, library, etc.) which is in the public consciousness. > (Which Tethers on Earth *aren't*. But they are in the celestial realms, > probably...) Erk. Yes, they can. :) > Expanded Cherub Resonance -- the Nemesis and Protection abilities... > Expanded resonance tricks in the APG. Hey, no fair using books I don't have. ;) - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:28:54 -0500 (EST) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> CDaU At 2:08 PM 3/29/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > 27 Superiors (not counting the minors), 12 pages per. I >don't think anyone's buying the *dictionary* here... *blink* Oh. I was thinking the complaint was "too few" pages, not "too many." Apologies. - -J - --- jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life) Amalgam of the Day: Wesley Dodds and werther@hilander.com (play) Tom Servo in SANDMAN MYSTERY THEATRE jayafter12am@hotmail.com (late-night) 3000. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:30:03 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Uriel & Christianity On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > I think it's been implied that Uriel supported the Church once it became > > the dominant power in Rome, since the Roman Empire was the best instrument > > to unify the rest of the world under a monotheistic model. I don't believe > > this has been clearly established yet, though. > > Was this after Khalid had become an Archangel? Well before, actually. Christianity was the dominate religion in the Roman Empire by AD 200-300 (somewhere in there). Islam didn't come along until the 6th centure AD, and Khalid didn't become an Archangel for at least another century. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:33:19 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. In a message dated 3/28/99 10:14:05 PM Central Standard Time, anthoch@earlham.edu writes: > > He checks them weekly because he doesn't trust any of them. > > Conversely, he could check them weekly because he cares about them > enough that if they're accumulating Dissonance he wants to stop it as > soon as possible, and weekly is as often as he can possibly get to any > one of his servitors. > I'd say a healthy amount of both. Brian A Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:48:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? At 2:09 PM -0500 3/29/99, EDG wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Nope -- Ofanim get to find "the nearest [x]" where [x] is a general >> location (gas station, library, etc.) which is in the public consciousness. >> (Which Tethers on Earth *aren't*. But they are in the celestial realms, >> probably...) > >Erk. Yes, they can. :) Told ya! O;> >> Expanded Cherub Resonance -- the Nemesis and Protection abilities... >> Expanded resonance tricks in the APG. > >Hey, no fair using books I don't have. ;) Just because I'm an angel doesn't mean I have to be fair. - --Beth, Archangel of Archives http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Angels/Arcangel.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:45:21 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> CDaU In a message dated 3/29/99 12:53:07 PM Central Standard Time, jadasc@ma.ultranet.com writes: > And, on a minor chord: We've got the CPG, the IPG and the APG. > Only one realm to go. EPG, anyone? Yes!! That would be cool! I'd buy it. But then I've bought everything out for In Nomine so far. Brian A Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:44:39 +0100 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? EDG wrote: >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> Erm Songs of Symphony cost 4 essence per shot, not really that practical. > >True. > >> They only mimic one part of the Cherubs Res. remember the bonus of the >> cherub's Celestial forces to any roll to protect their charge. > >So? Oath #3: Never allow anyone to whom you are attuned to be harmed. >It fits in with the description of Malakim, too - if you attract one's >attention, you're going to be out of the jam you're in fairly quickly, >either because they'll beat off the threat, or because you'll be on your >way to the afterlife. So how does that make a Malakite better at protected things or people? >> Can they tell you where the nearest libary is? Sorry, obviously you would >> use 4 essence and use a song of Symphony if you needed that kind of >> information. > >That's only Ofanim of Marc that can do that, iirc. :) No all ofanim can use their res for area knowledge. >> Can they allow you to do *anything * quickly? > >I don't think Ofanim can do _anything_ quickly... just move fast. Read APG. >> Wait, are you trying to say those with Songs of Harmony would use them on >> themselves to think rationally? > >It could happen. Unlikely. >> If heaven went round using songs for everything, Hell would notice pretty >> damn quickly, and the War could not be conducted as it is now, try guiding >> a soul to their destiny when every action you take to do it alerts the >> local demons that you're interested in this one. > >So? "Oh, jeez, there's a Malakite on that one... don't go near him!" More like: That one is an angel. Destroy his role, corrupt those he hangs about with, and if worst comes to worst ambush him. Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:20:07 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > So how does that make a Malakite better at protected things or people? If they don't protect their charge, they get dissonance. Therefore their focus will become making sure they don't let their charge take damage, because for every point of disturbance made, the Malakite will get one point of dissonance (IMC; I don't want Malakim taking dissonance for papercuts). > No all ofanim can use their res for area knowledge. Beth corrected me here as well. > Read APG. Don't have access to APG. Give me APG and I will read APG. > Unlikely. IYC, maybe. > More like: That one is an angel. Destroy his role, corrupt those he hangs > about with, and if worst comes to worst ambush him. Yes, but if _every_ _angel_ were a Malakite, they'd probably watch each other's backs like crazy. Demon kills angel, four other angels swoop down and kill demon. Malakim also have an incredible advantage when it comes to Roles. Since they don't suffer Trauma, if they have another, identical vessel, they can just beam right back down and dispose of the old body. Assuming it wasn't a public killing, the Role remains, uninterrupted. Regardless, the original argument was "Why not make everyone a Malakite and win the War already?" I think the theory was that they'd just storm Hell and take everyone out. After that was over and done with, the few remaining demons would be sought out and killed, while the Archangels busied themselves making new angels of _every_ type. - -EDG oo... question forming... - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:30:09 -0500 From: EDG Subject: IN> Malakim, Attraction (I think) and Possession Okay: a scenario. Malakite has the Oath: Don't let harm come to anyone under my care. Malakite is possessed, via the eponymous Song, and then the possessor uses the Song of Attraction (I believe, the one that mimics the Cherubim Resonance) on someone, then leaves the body. Who's then attuned to the target of the second Song? The possessor - or the Malakite whose body it is? I've got this image of a Malakite following a human around looking like a lost puppy. "Yeah, some guy hopped into me and attuned me to this girl... and now I can't let her get hurt!" On second thought, I'm thinking that perhaps 'looking like a lost puppy' wasn't the best phrase to use. Then again, it's a great disguise. Girl carries puppy around, gets into trouble, puppy turns into huge Malakite and scares/beats off the troublemakers... - -EDG I have way too much time on my hands. - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:51:13 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? > >> - Heaven would have no insight into human hearts. > >For this, I see no substitute. > I think the Malakim would argue that this was unnecessary. Malakim are a small minority of the Archangels deciding whether or not to send non-Malakim to Earth. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:05:40 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? EDG wrote: > Regardless, the original argument was "Why not make everyone a Malakite > and win the War already?" I think the theory was that they'd just storm > Hell and take everyone out. After that was over and done with, the few > remaining demons would be sought out and killed, while the Archangels > busied themselves making new angels of _every_ type. There are all sorts of answers to this. For one thing, in this case, Malakim don't have that big of an advantage over the other choirs. Their resonance doesn't come into play, and avoiding Trauma doesn't matter, since you're talking about celestial combat. And not being able to Fall only makes a difference if you're going to be spending a lengthy period during which you might be corrupted. I don't see the advantage at all. A better solution would be for all of the other archangels to kick all of their power over to Michael and Laurence, since they have the really cool combat attunements. Another objection goes back the question of doing God's will. The final battle you envision is to be signalled by a series of prophecies. To launch the assault before this time is to thwart God. I suppose that militant archangels could go about creating these conditions, as Kobal and Malphas have, but there would be a lot of legitimate debate among the Seraphim Council as to whether this is really proper. The Fifth Prophecy, after all, requires unanimous consent of either the archangels or the demon princes. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:53:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? At 5:20 PM -0500 3/29/99, EDG wrote: >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> So how does that make a Malakite better at protected things or people? > >If they don't protect their charge, they get dissonance. Therefore >their focus will become making sure they don't let their charge take >damage, because for every point of disturbance made, the Malakite will >get one point of dissonance (IMC; I don't want Malakim taking dissonance >for papercuts). (Cherubim get a bonus to rolls that protect their charges, in the APG. Malakim wouldn't.) >> More like: That one is an angel. Destroy his role, corrupt those he hangs >> about with, and if worst comes to worst ambush him. > >Yes, but if _every_ _angel_ were a Malakite, they'd probably watch each >other's backs like crazy. Demon kills angel, four other angels swoop >down and kill demon. You realize you're assuming there *are* enough angels to do this -- indeed, more than already exist, since that's what many angels would like to do anyway, Malakite or not... O;> There may be that many angels -- but that's a campaign choice... >Regardless, the original argument was "Why not make everyone a Malakite >and win the War already?" I think the theory was that they'd just storm >Hell and take everyone out. After that was over and done with, the few >remaining demons would be sought out and killed, while the Archangels >busied themselves making new angels of _every_ type. One wonders if there'd be much of anything left of the corporeal realm... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:58:48 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 10:24 AM -0800 3/28/99, Janet Anderson wrote: [snip all of really good post except:] > >(How many choirs and Demon Princes take dissonance if they allow > >themselves to care about their victims?) > (Bands, you mean? Mostly just Andre, though a Habbalite who cares > about someone *weak* is going to be in trouble for other reasons. i was thinking about this the last couple of days, and while i'm sure demons are capable of feigning affection, compassion, or any other selfless emotion to varying degrees, it's only the Lilim of Lust who really have a hard time with Adre's dissonance: despite selfish reasons, it's incumbant upon Lilim to care about people, and what they can do for those people so that Needs can be met and Geases laid. Impudites of Lust, as well, should be having major problems around other demons, and many humans, because of Band/Word conflict. how do most people resolve this issue, or do you just let those two bands get all swarmy-sick with Discord or dissonance? -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:04:00 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> CDaU On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 1:50 PM -0500 3/29/99, Jason Schneiderman wrote: > >At 1:26 PM 3/29/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >>Just as a note, count up the pages... And how much the pages cost... > >>Words per page are approximately 625. > >Counter-note: Extended Superior Dance Mixes (which is a damned cool > >appellation and will be stolen) for all the presently available superiors > >in a single book, not just the ones that have been done so far. > 27 Superiors (not counting the minors), 12 pages per. I > don't think anyone's buying the *dictionary* here... so do 'em in Angelic and Demonic Editions 0 :-) -=|horsefly|=- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:03:54 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Uriel & Christianity >>>Was this after Khalid had become an Archangel?<<< No, neither Laurence nor Khalid became Archangels until after Uriel had been recalled. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:19:30 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim, Attraction (I think) and Possession EDG wrote: > Malakite has the Oath: Don't let harm come to anyone under my care. > Malakite is possessed, via the eponymous Song, and then the possessor > uses the Song of Attraction (I believe, the one that mimics the Cherubim > Resonance) on someone, then leaves the body. The Song only mimics the tracking part of a Cherubs resonance. Even if the Malakite is now Song-attuned to a person, that person is not under the Malakite's care unless the Malakite says so. The Song does not force any obligation on the singer to protect the target. > Who's then attuned to the target of the second Song? The possessor - or > the Malakite whose body it is? It's a celestial Song. I'd be tempted to rule that it relies on the soul of the caster, therefore whomever was possessing the Malakite will be atuned. Your call based on how it relates to your game though. Note above, even if it works on the Malakite, he has no duty of care towards the attuned. > I've got this image of a Malakite following a human around looking like > a lost puppy. "Yeah, some guy hopped into me and attuned me to this > girl... and now I can't let her get hurt!" Why? Go back and read the Song. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:31:27 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> CDaU At 2:45 PM -0500 3/29/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/29/99 12:53:07 PM Central Standard Time, > jadasc@ma.ultranet.com writes: > >> And, on a minor chord: We've got the CPG, the IPG and the APG. >> Only one realm to go. EPG, anyone? > > Yes!! That would be cool! I'd buy it. But then I've bought everything out for > In Nomine so far. > > Brian A Rogers Yeah, I have too. Do you *know* what that *means?* I managed to kick the habit. Kick it one hundred percent. Role Playing? Hey, you reach a point where you set such things aside. My old groups were scattered to the winds and so was I. And then... *then* I went to *Arisia.* And a Servitor of Fleurity in the role of an SJGames MIB subtly got me into a couple of Toon games and talked to be about this new game they were putting out and the themes sounded interesting. He gave me a pin and a copy of the Principa Discordia (hey -- the first one's free) and I found In Nomine at one of the RPG dealer's on Dealer's Row. Now I own *every* IN book printed. Every last one of them. I spend a large chunk of my day doing IN stuff or thinking IN stuff. I own reference materials above and beyond the books. I bought a *pin.* And what's worse, I evangelize it. I talk it up with friends, with coworkers. My students have started organizing by Choir and Band. I practically expect to walk in one morning and get cut down by a Calabite for spreading Angelic propeganda.... Except... except they wouldn't. Because my entire life is a testement to furthering Fleurity's word. I addict others, I feed my addiction. I am lost.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:36:20 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions At 3:58 PM -0800 3/29/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> At 10:24 AM -0800 3/28/99, Janet Anderson wrote: > [snip all of really good post except:] >> >(How many choirs and Demon Princes take dissonance if they allow >> >themselves to care about their victims?) >> (Bands, you mean? Mostly just Andre, though a Habbalite who cares >> about someone *weak* is going to be in trouble for other reasons. > i was thinking about this the last couple of days, and while i'm > sure demons are capable of feigning affection, compassion, or any other > selfless emotion to varying degrees, it's only the Lilim of Lust who > really have a hard time with Adre's dissonance: despite selfish reasons, > it's incumbant upon Lilim to care about people, and what they can do for > those people so that Needs can be met and Geases laid. Impudites of Lust, > as well, should be having major problems around other demons, and many > humans, because of Band/Word conflict. how do most people resolve this > issue, or do you just let those two bands get all swarmy-sick with Discord > or dissonance? So... let me just put this in perspective... you're saying that the Dark Lilim's Resonance is innately unselfish and promotes an unselfish attitude? Wow -- now *there's* your irony! - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:43:58 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> CDaU At 4:04 PM -0800 3/29/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> At 1:50 PM -0500 3/29/99, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >> >At 1:26 PM 3/29/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >>Just as a note, count up the pages... And how much the pages cost... >> >>Words per page are approximately 625. >> >Counter-note: Extended Superior Dance Mixes (which is a damned cool >> >appellation and will be stolen) for all the presently available superiors >> >in a single book, not just the ones that have been done so far. >> 27 Superiors (not counting the minors), 12 pages per. I >> don't think anyone's buying the *dictionary* here... > so do 'em in Angelic and Demonic Editions 0 :-) > -=|horsefly|=- Hm. That's 168 pages (roughly) for each of the two. Not *too* out of bounds.... Perhaps when the Revelations cycles run out, the Angelic Player's Reference and Infernal Player's Reference can come out with those writeups (and any reworking the Mighty Line Editor wishes of them).... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:54:10 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > At 3:58 PM -0800 3/29/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > > i was thinking about this the last couple of days, and while i'm > > sure demons are capable of feigning affection, compassion, or any other > > selfless emotion to varying degrees, it's only the Lilim of Lust who > > really have a hard time with Adre's dissonance: despite selfish reasons, > > it's incumbant upon Lilim to care about people, and what they can do for > > those people so that Needs can be met and Geases laid. Impudites of Lust, > > as well, should be having major problems around other demons, and many > > humans, because of Band/Word conflict. how do most people resolve this > > issue, or do you just let those two bands get all swarmy-sick with Discord > > or dissonance? > So... let me just put this in perspective... you're saying that the > Dark Lilim's Resonance is innately unselfish and promotes an > unselfish attitude? to clarify: no, i don't think it's unselfish. it's caring for their own reasons. it's still *caring,* though, and that's the problem i'm having wrapping my brain around the matter. > Wow -- now *there's* your irony! it might be if i had actually said what you thought i did ;) -=|horsefly|=- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:21:17 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions - -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > to clarify: no, i don't think it's unselfish. it's caring for > their own reasons. it's still *caring,* though, and that's the problem > i'm having wrapping my brain around the matter. Not really. Lilim of Lust don't care at all about _human_ targets of their Geases. The victim's well-being only enters into the equation very little, only as much as it takes to say "What can I do for him so that he'll do X for me?". Besides which, the Lust dissonance condition isn't for caring, per se. It's feeling sympathy or concern. A Lilim doesn't; she simply senses the victim's need and, since if she fulfills his need he'll have to do something for her, fills it. It's no more sympathetic than handing a heroin addict a fresh needle and then asking said person to take a package to a nearby address. In a way, it's encouraging the behavior that got the victim to need in the first place, _especially_ if the Lilim keeps using that person. If she's there to fulfill that need, he's not going to take the precautions he needs to to avoid it, and thereby fall into it again and again. I sense a story coming out of that last bit... > -=|horsefly|=- - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:26:27 -0800 From: thealien@dangerzone.org Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? At 05:20 PM 3/29/99 -0500, EDG wrote: >Regardless, the original argument was "Why not make everyone a Malakite >and win the War already?" I think the theory was that they'd just storm >Hell and take everyone out. After that was over and done with, the few >remaining demons would be sought out and killed, while the Archangels >busied themselves making new angels of _every_ type. > >-EDG > oo... question forming... Malakim aren't (by Choir alone) better fighters than everyone. In fact, fighting demons, all Choirs could be fairly equal...all Earthly choirs, anyway. Who knows about the others? But keep in mind that Ofanim are actually some of the best combatants...Malakim are just usually more focused on combat. Who is the greatest fighter in Creation? Michael, a Seraph. Why not just have every angel train for combat and storm Hell? There's a section in APG(Of course!) which basically says that if a full frontal assault were launched, the numbers don't look good for Heaven. Even if every angel were a Malakite...without God intervening directly, Heaven might well lose. Of course, all the numbers of the demons don't help them in attacking Heaven, where the angels would be on their home turf and the demons would be exploding from the Light. That's why neither side is storming the gates... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:44:51 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> CDaU In a message dated 3/29/99 6:36:23 PM Central Standard Time, in- sabre@annotations.com writes: > Now I own *every* IN book printed. Every last one of them. I spend > a large chunk of my day doing IN stuff or thinking IN stuff. I own > reference materials above and beyond the books. I bought a *pin.* > > And what's worse, I evangelize it. I talk it up with friends, with > coworkers. My students have started organizing by Choir and Band. I > practically expect to walk in one morning and get cut down by a > Calabite for spreading Angelic propeganda.... > > Except... except they wouldn't. Because my entire life is a > testement to furthering Fleurity's word. I addict others, I feed my > addiction. I am lost.... > I don't know about Fleurty.. Maybe, maybe not. What Word would "Having to buy every book in order to have that sense of completion" go under? Brian A Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:49:28 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> CDaU BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > What Word would "Having to buy every book in order to have that sense of > completion" go under? Drugs. It's an addiction, psychological in nature. Then again, you could give it to a demon of Obsession, if there is one. > Brian A Rogers - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:00:56 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> CDaU At 11:44 PM -0500 3/29/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/29/99 6:36:23 PM Central Standard Time, in- > sabre@annotations.com writes: > >> Now I own *every* IN book printed. Every last one of them. I spend >> a large chunk of my day doing IN stuff or thinking IN stuff. I own >> reference materials above and beyond the books. I bought a *pin.* >> >> And what's worse, I evangelize it. I talk it up with friends, with >> coworkers. My students have started organizing by Choir and Band. I >> practically expect to walk in one morning and get cut down by a >> Calabite for spreading Angelic propeganda.... >> >> Except... except they wouldn't. Because my entire life is a >> testement to furthering Fleurity's word. I addict others, I feed my >> addiction. I am lost.... >> > > I don't know about Fleurty.. > Maybe, maybe not. > What Word would "Having to buy every book in order to have that sense of > completion" go under? > > Brian A Rogers Archives. Waaaaaaaaaaaait a minute.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:16:58 -0500 From: "Sheep Boy" Subject: RE: IN> CDaU EDG wrote: > > BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > > > What Word would "Having to buy every book in order to > have that sense of > > completion" go under? > > Drugs. It's an addiction, psychological in nature. > > Then again, you could give it to a demon of Obsession, if > there is one. > > > Brian A Rogers > > -EDG > I was thinking along those lines...I was tempted to give it to Lust, not that it makes any more sense than Drugs, necessarily, but hey. Hellspeak is a weird tongue. :) Obsession makes a lot more sense to me, though. Writeup anyone? :) - Stavro +-stavro@crackden.org-------------------------ICQ#18493910-+ | "Boom na da mmm dum na ema | | Da boom na da mmm dum na ema" | | - Korn, "Freak on a Leash" | +----------------http://www.crackden.org/------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:26:02 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> CDaU Sheep Boy wrote: > I was thinking along those lines...I was tempted to give it to Lust, > not that it makes any more sense than Drugs, necessarily, but hey. > Hellspeak is a weird tongue. :) Obsession makes a lot more sense to > me, though. Writeup anyone? :) I'd love to. Like to see if there is one already first, though - and the INcyclopedia's down. *pout* - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:57:30 -0700 From: "Andrew Bonham" Subject: Re: IN> CDaU I always saw Haagenti as having dominion over such vices, based on his consume attunement that every servent of his must have (another VCR on your credit card? How about 50 more RPGs?) >BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > >> What Word would "Having to buy every book in order to have that sense of >> completion" go under? > >Drugs. It's an addiction, psychological in nature. > >Then again, you could give it to a demon of Obsession, if there is one. > >> Brian A Rogers > >-EDG > >-- >EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination >anthoch@earlham.edu >"Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort >of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} > Andrew J Bonham ParadoxPhilosopher@worldnet.att.net The Druid's Circle: http://home.att.net/~paradoxphilosopher/ "Imagination is more powerful than knowledge" -Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 01:01:03 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> CDaU Andrew Bonham wrote: > I always saw Haagenti as having dominion over such vices, based on his > consume attunement that every servent of his must have (another VCR on your > credit card? How about 50 more RPGs?) Honestly? I always found Consume to be way too wide-ranging - especially with Mammon in the mix. I still think it should be Obsession, though. :) - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:32:32 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> INcyclopedia down. My apologies for the boneheaded error, but I made the mistake of upgrading software on a production machine without making the appropriate sacrifices to the computer gods. I'm working on rebuilding the machine that generates the pages; my partner is working on code that checks to make sure that pages are _good_ before they're _published_. I expect you'll have it all back and up sometime tomorrow. It's nice to see that we were missed, though. . . . (A raw search of the database shows no mention of "obsession" in the Word field of any character, though.) steve - -----Original Message----- From: EDG [mailto:anthoch@earlham.edu] Sent: Monday, March 29, 1999 9:26 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> CDaU Sheep Boy wrote: > I was thinking along those lines...I was tempted to give it to Lust, > not that it makes any more sense than Drugs, necessarily, but hey. > Hellspeak is a weird tongue. :) Obsession makes a lot more sense to > me, though. Writeup anyone? :) I'd love to. Like to see if there is one already first, though - and the INcyclopedia's down. *pout* - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:38:15 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, EDG wrote: [snip--thanks for answering the question!] > Besides which, the Lust dissonance condition isn't for caring, per se. > It's feeling sympathy or concern. A Lilim doesn't; she simply senses *that's* the distinction, thank-you. > the victim's need and, since if she fulfills his need he'll have to do > something for her, fills it. It's no more sympathetic than handing a > heroin addict a fresh needle and then asking said person to take a > package to a nearby address. In a way, it's encouraging the behavior > that got the victim to need in the first place, _especially_ if the > Lilim keeps using that person. If she's there to fulfill that need, and fulfilling Needs of Lust would ultimately bring someone closer to their Fate, sure, as well as giving the Lilim someone willing to accept what she wants of them via Geases. > he's not going to take the precautions he needs to to avoid it, and > thereby fall into it again and again. tangental based on your using the term "precautions": does any one else think it would be entirely appropriate for Servitors of Lust to regain essence from having unprotected sex? that seems like a legitimate if controversial thing to "support" (at least in mindset), but it is a *game,* after all. on another issue (please forgive me if this has been covered countless times before), do Celestial vessals act as carriers of diseases even if the Celestial itself doesn't bear the brunt of the virus/bacteria? in such a way, Lusties might service their human customers, propagating the spread of STDs. > I sense a story coming out of that last bit... agreed. -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1184 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.