From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 30 14:38:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27984 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:38:01 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA12660 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:21:21 -0600 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:21:21 -0600 Message-Id: <199903302021.OAA12660@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1185 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 30 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1185 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> CDaU Re: IN> Second Edition Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects IN> Lilim Live! Re: IN> Lilim Live! Re: IN> Lilim Live! Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas IN> Addictions (Re: CDaU) Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> Second Edition Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions IN> Book Breakdowns (Re: CDaU) Re: IN> Malakim, Attraction (I think) and Possession IN> IN: celestial typhoid marys? Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> Lilim Live! Re: IN> Book Breakdowns (Re: CDaU) Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> Book Breakdowns (Re: CDaU) Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 02:57:31 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > SJ Games doesn't have the license to produce IN fiction. Don't ask > me why not -- it could be anything from price to Croc hating what > happened to Eli and the invention of Lilith to simply not having > the time during the recent (current, probably, too) roleplaying > games slump. Okay, now I gota ask: How did Eli change from INS/MV? And I was under the impression that Lilith existed in the French version. Please explain, O Archangel. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 03:11:38 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas At 2:57 AM -0500 3/30/99, Casca wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> SJ Games doesn't have the license to produce IN fiction. Don't ask >> me why not -- it could be anything from price to Croc hating what >> happened to Eli and the invention of Lilith to simply not having >> the time during the recent (current, probably, too) roleplaying >> games slump. > > Okay, now I gota ask: How did Eli change from INS/MV? And I was under the > impression that Lilith existed in the French version. > > Please explain, O Archangel. And did Croc truly hate these points, or are these simply examples? - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:52:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > on another issue (please forgive me if this has been covered > countless times before), do Celestial vessals act as carriers of diseases > even if the Celestial itself doesn't bear the brunt of the virus/bacteria? > in such a way, Lusties might service their human customers, propagating > the spread of STDs. I think vessels are immune to disease, but I'm not sure. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:16:32 -0500 (EST) From: "Diane J. Donaldson" Subject: Re: IN> CDaU Eric Burns wrote: >Now I own *every* IN book printed. Every last one of them. I spend >a large chunk of my day doing IN stuff or thinking IN stuff. I own >reference materials above and beyond the books. I bought a *pin.* > > >- -- > Eric Alfred Burns | > | > non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com Eric, I feel your pain, I really do. I too have bought all the IN books. I bought pins for all five of my angelic players. I got a cool-looking shirt with one of Dore's illustrations from "Paradise Lost" that I wear when I GM. Heck, I even got a burning feather tattoo! (And let me tell you, it's pretty durn gorgeous.) But what the heck. At least IN presupposes some kind of order on the chaos we call life...if you don't have an "real-world" explanation for why something absolutely outrageous is happening, you can at least use one from IN. Nice to have that kind of escape hatch, these days. djd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:05:51 +0100 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Second Edition On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Walter Milliken wrote: > Generally, newer books list edition with book name in the > introduction, where page references are discussed. But IN uses a > different inter-book reference style than GURPS, so I don't know how > this would be handled. I'd pay at least $75 or so for a CD containing an HTML 2/e of everything significant that's come out so far (All the rules, the superior write-ups, the songs and the McGuffins) - and I've got most of the books already. I bet others would pay more - how much would it cost SJGames to sit Archangel Beth down with a technical chap(pess) and just do it? And you can release 'service packs' by ftp whenever you change anything, or add erratta or FAQs. The idea of hyperlinks in the main text which refer out to the FAQ sounds rather better than just useful. I guess that's a whole other 'future of the industry' discussion, though. Steve. - ------ Smile, it makes people wonder what you are thinking. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:35:26 +0100 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Considering the havoc that a one-flea Kyriotate can get up to, That would be the one-flea Kyrio with Strength 12 and Claws/6 ? :-) Steve - ------ A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game is played for the purpose of continuing play - - James P Carse ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:50:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects Steve Jessop wrote: > That would be the one-flea Kyrio with Strength 12 and Claws/6 ? :-) Yeah, sort of like a free-ranging dentist drill, out gouging for God. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:57:15 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> Lilim Live! I've been involved in a discussion on a different mailing list the devolved into, among other things, how serious one should take one's wedding vows. One of my opposite numbers made the following statement: "Come on, responsibility means nothing if you are looking for happiness." which I had to share as encapsualting in one sentence the Dark Lilim mindset. I wish I could say that I'd made it up, but there is, unfortunately, at least one legal adult out there who will sat this seriously. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:34:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Live! Eeyore wrote, quoting some putative human: > "Come on, responsibility > means nothing if you are looking for happiness." - -- in a discussion on wedding vows. Glad *I'm* not marrying this one. Is their significant other reading the same thread? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:11:21 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Live! On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Eeyore wrote: [snip] > wedding vows. One of my opposite numbers made the following statement: > "Come on, responsibility > means nothing if you are looking for happiness." > > which I had to share as encapsualting in one sentence the Dark Lilim > mindset. I wish I could say that I'd made it up, but there is, [snip remainder] i respectfully disagree. for Lilim to be effective agents as a Band, especially the Frees, responsibility and personal integrity (at least while others are watching ) are paramount. a Lilim might be lazy, but she in all likelihood won't be as powerful as her more active sisters. a Lilim may be irresponsible, but she would soon find the combined weight of her sisters pressed against her to shape up, because no Lilim can afford a tarnished reputation, and that's what an irresponsible Lilim spreads. it's not a noble, selfless, or stalwart responsibility, but it is a canny, practical, and pragmatic responsibility that many to most Lilim practice, and i don't think even such Hellish responsibility qualifies as irresponsible. -=|horsefly|=- p.s.--i've said nothing of Lilim happiness.... ;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:28:19 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 11:30 AM -0500 3/27/99, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > >In Nomine, p.191, "Only Jordi's Kyriotates may manifest as insects." > > Ooooooh! Rush of Essence good! ;) > > I'd forgotten to go look at the animal-stats. That's because any sensible person wouldn't look there for a choir-specific resonance. Just one more reason that IN2 is a Good Thing. Heh. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:31:50 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects Steve Jessop wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > Considering the havoc that a one-flea Kyriotate can get up to, > > That would be the one-flea Kyrio with Strength 12 and Claws/6 ? :-) Heh. Canon on that is that you need at least a swarm to make full use of mondo stats and Songs like that. Mind you, a very, very strong flea could burrow INTO someone with alarming effects, but things that small don't have the leverage to really use their Strength. A swarm of fleas is an eeeeeeeevil thing, though! It's a variation on the 'Why Superman can't pick up a building shtick'. And don't give me that bull about how he has some sort of telekinetic power that works on what he touches... I ain't buyin' it! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 04:11:20 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions > >I think vessels are immune to disease, but I'm not sure. > The issue is not effects but carrying. Could there be a sort of celestial typhoid Mary. Also how about Kyriotates or Shedim in this equation? Say a Shedite possesses someone with AIDS and has unprotected sex with an uninfected person. Can the uninfected person be infected or not? Also in this would their later death cause noise because the disease was given to them by a celestial(let's assume willfully)? Ben, Elohite of Flowers serving Stone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:14:29 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> SJ Games doesn't have the license to produce IN fiction. Don't ask >> me why not -- it could be anything from price to Croc hating what >> happened to Eli and the invention of Lilith to simply not having >> the time during the recent (current, probably, too) roleplaying >> games slump. > >Okay, now I gota ask: How did Eli change from INS/MV? And I was under the >impression that Lilith existed in the French version. > >Please explain, O Archangel. Well, in lieu of the Archangel of Archives (and as I have some of the INS/MV stuff currently on my shelf) ... Lilith did _not_ exist in the French version, ever. No hint of her. Nothing. There is a Renegade Archangel, Catherine, Archangel of Women, who is later revealed to be Eve under a new name. (Adam apparently committed suicide.) There's even a campaign involving her, the likewise Renegade Archangel of Confusion, the Celtic gods, Jack the Ripper, the Cauldron of the Dagda being buried under Notre Dame, the PCs on trial for high treason... but that's a different matter. Re Eli -- yes, he does exist as the Archangel of Creation, but he's purely an Islamic Archangel. (In INS/MV, Gabriel (who was not openly known to be an Archangel, other than by God and Yves) got together Khalid (Faith), Hasan (Culture), and Eli (Creation), _none_ of whom were at that point Archangels, to create a workable synthesis religion. Islam. Which he then dictated to Mohammed. There was then the matter of being publicly declared a traitor, duelling with Laurent, and being lost in battle... but that's another story.) Anyhow, Eli _is_ Archangel of Creation, but the aspect is more of all creation than of creation as a process, if you like. To Eli, the animals, the plants, even the rocks are all as valuable as humans. He has an unsettling regard. And don't walk on the grass. Fascinating game. But IN/SJ has some _big_ differences from INS/MV. - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:30:15 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Addictions (Re: CDaU) At 7:31 PM -0500 3/29/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >And then... *then* I went to *Arisia.* And a Servitor of Fleurity in >the role of an SJGames MIB >Except... except they wouldn't. Because my entire life is a >testement to furthering Fleurity's word. I addict others, I feed my >addiction. I am lost.... ("Join with us! It's your destiny!") At 12:00 AM -0500 3/30/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 11:44 PM -0500 3/29/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >> I don't know about Fleurty.. >> Maybe, maybe not. >> What Word would "Having to buy every book in order to have that sense of >> completion" go under? (Gluttony?) >Archives. > > > >Waaaaaaaaaaaait a minute.... O;> - --Beth, Archangel of Archives http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Angels/Arcangel.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:35:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions At 10:38 PM -0800 3/29/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > on another issue (please forgive me if this has been covered >countless times before), do Celestial vessals act as carriers of diseases >even if the Celestial itself doesn't bear the brunt of the virus/bacteria? I _think_ that's in the APG or IPG or FAQ as a yes, they don't get sick but they can be carriers. But I don't recall exactly where... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:36:46 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Second Edition At 4:05 PM +0100 3/30/99, Steve Jessop wrote: >On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Walter Milliken wrote: > >> Generally, newer books list edition with book name in the >> introduction, where page references are discussed. But IN uses a >> different inter-book reference style than GURPS, so I don't know how >> this would be handled. > >I'd pay at least $75 or so for a CD containing an HTML 2/e of everything >significant that's come out so far (All the rules, the superior write-ups, >the songs and the McGuffins) - and I've got most of the books already. I >bet others would pay more - how much would it cost SJGames to sit >Archangel Beth down with a technical chap(pess) and just do it? Basically, you're going to have to lobby for a GURPS CD-ROM project, and if that sells, then they'll think about an IN one. I'm pretty sure they won't think about an IN one until the GURPS one exists. >I guess that's a whole other 'future of the industry' discussion, though. It's certainly nothing *I* can do... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:39:07 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions At 3:58 PM -0800 3/29/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > i was thinking about this the last couple of days, and while i'm >sure demons are capable of feigning affection, compassion, or any other >selfless emotion to varying degrees, it's only the Lilim of Lust who >really have a hard time with Adre's dissonance: despite selfish reasons, >it's incumbant upon Lilim to care about people, and what they can do for >those people so that Needs can be met and Geases laid. Yes and no -- some Needs, true, they'd have a hard time with. (It's that "show no concern" aspect that's the kicker. They, technically, can't even fake it...) However, if they take the right vessels, they can probably make sure they get lots of hooks just from the "want to have sex" Needs. (Since they *can* do that, without it counting as 'concern.') One also hopes they could be seductive... But it does look like Lusties have to be careful... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:39:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Book Breakdowns (Re: CDaU) At 4:04 PM -0800 3/29/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> At 1:50 PM -0500 3/29/99, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >> >At 1:26 PM 3/29/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >>Just as a note, count up the pages... And how much the pages cost... >> >>Words per page are approximately 625. >> >Counter-note: Extended Superior Dance Mixes (which is a damned cool >> >appellation and will be stolen) for all the presently available superiors >> >in a single book, not just the ones that have been done so far. >> 27 Superiors (not counting the minors), 12 pages per. I >> don't think anyone's buying the *dictionary* here... > so do 'em in Angelic and Demonic Editions 0 :-) Okay, breakdown further... 128 pages. 5 for the front page, table of contents, and index. That leaves 123 pages. 12 Archangels (not counting the bitty ones). If you want to flip books, you could barely squeeze the expanded writeups into one book (10 pages each). That would mean No New Material for the already-published ones. If you add in the 2 pages from the main book, then that goes to 144 pages, which is the next size up, but you need 149 to fit in the index and whatnot, and for various reasons, that's not possible. (The printers aren't set up to do it.) However, it breaks for the Princes immediately, because there are 13 of them, which puts you at 135 pages right there. Or 156. But you can't do them that way. You have to go up in increments of 16. No dictionaries. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:39:14 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakim, Attraction (I think) and Possession At 5:30 PM -0500 3/29/99, EDG wrote: >Okay: a scenario. > >Malakite has the Oath: Don't let harm come to anyone under my care. >Malakite is possessed, via the eponymous Song, and then the possessor >uses the Song of Attraction (I believe, the one that mimics the Cherubim >Resonance) on someone, then leaves the body. > >Who's then attuned to the target of the second Song? The possessor - or >the Malakite whose body it is? The possessor. While he can use his host's attunements, he has no access to the host's Songs. So the Song of Attraction would have to be one *he* knew, and therefore it would go with *him* when the possession ended. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:39:53 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: IN> IN: celestial typhoid marys? On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Ben Aldred wrote: > >I think vessels are immune to disease, but I'm not sure. > The issue is not effects but carrying. Could there be a sort of thank-you for re-interating my querry. > celestial typhoid Mary. Also how about Kyriotates or Shedim in this > equation? Say a Shedite possesses someone with AIDS and has unprotected damn, here we go into possessions. that wasn't the focus of my question, and i'd like to stay away from it, but let's see how the answers pan out anyway ;) > sex with an uninfected person. Can the uninfected person be infected or > not? Also in this would their later death cause noise because the > disease was given to them by a celestial(let's assume willfully)? i'd say someone having sex with a person with an STD (AIDS in this case) possessed by a celestial would contract said STD in the standard ways and with standard probabilities. assuming a human _were_ infected and later died *of that disease*, then i would rule the death makes noise as per standard human-death Disturbance, whether infected intentionally (as in your example) or not in any host of other possibilities. all of this is because the participants in the sexual act are both human, despite one's acting on celestial manipulation. --ohh, there's a phrase: "celestial manipulation." a Lilim has sex with AIDS victims, and since so few others will, picks up several Geases. she then Geases them to each have sex with someone she points out. is this different enough from a celestial having a Soldier or other human kill someone to require Disturbance, or just as silent? the tangeants crop up whether i want them to or not, it seems . -=|horsefly|=- "What the hell are you doing?!" "There was a rat. So I shot it." "You shot my *kitchen,* that's what!" --Dets. Stone and Dirken, SPLIT SECOND ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:42:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas At 3:11 AM -0500 3/30/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 2:57 AM -0500 3/30/99, Casca wrote: >> On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >>> SJ Games doesn't have the license to produce IN fiction. Don't ask >>> me why not -- it could be anything from price to Croc hating what >>> happened to Eli and the invention of Lilith to simply not having >>> the time during the recent (current, probably, too) roleplaying >>> games slump. >> >> Okay, now I gota ask: How did Eli change from INS/MV? And I was under the >> impression that Lilith existed in the French version. >> >> Please explain, O Archangel. >And did Croc truly hate these points, or are these simply examples? They are simply examples. That's usually what I mean when I say "it could be anything." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:42:16 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions At 4:11 AM -0500 3/29/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >> >>I think vessels are immune to disease, but I'm not sure. >> >The issue is not effects but carrying. Could there be a sort of celestial >typhoid Mary. Also how about Kyriotates or Shedim in this equation? Say a >Shedite possesses someone with AIDS and has unprotected sex with an >uninfected person. Can the uninfected person be infected or not? I'd rule yes. > Also in >this would their later death cause noise because the disease was given to >them by a celestial(let's assume willfully)? It might, though there's an implication that if someone dies slowly enough, they don't make as much disturbance. Look at Scamper's pickled singers, in FotM. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:40:41 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Live! At 9:11 AM -0800 3/30/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Eeyore wrote: > [snip] >> wedding vows. One of my opposite numbers made the following statement: >> "Come on, responsibility >> means nothing if you are looking for happiness." Whether or not one applies it to Lilim, I'd certainly apply it to *Shedim*. They have their fun, and they move on, and they never, ever, have to take responsibility. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:04:20 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Book Breakdowns (Re: CDaU) On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 4:04 PM -0800 3/29/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: ['Superior Dance Mixes'] > > so do 'em in Angelic and Demonic Editions 0 :-) [snip] okay, i can handle that :) > However, it breaks for the Princes immediately, because there are > 13 of them, which puts you at 135 pages right there. Or 156. But > you can't do them that way. You have to go up in increments of 16. so kill one of the Demon Princes. -=|horsefly|=- ...preferrably Beliel ;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:00:11 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > I _think_ that's in the APG or IPG or FAQ as a yes, they don't get sick > but they can be carriers. But I don't recall exactly where... Found it. From the FAQ: "Celestials are unaffected by Corporeal diseases (but can contract certain diseases designed just for them). This also means that Celestials cannot be 'carriers' in the classic sense of the word, but if one were doused in a bubonic plague culture, someone could be infected from the germs on the outside of the Celestial's skin or clothing." - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:49:02 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > Yes and no -- some Needs, true, they'd have a hard time with. > (It's that "show no concern" aspect that's the kicker. They, > technically, can't even fake it...) However, if they take > the right vessels, they can probably make sure they get lots > of hooks just from the "want to have sex" Needs. (Since they > *can* do that, without it counting as 'concern.') > > One also hopes they could be seductive... > > But it does look like Lusties have to be careful... You probably want to leave this in the non-canon category. The Djinn of Lust attunement is all about faking that you care, so it probably doesn't cause dissonance. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:39:51 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Book Breakdowns (Re: CDaU) On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [page-counting snipped] > No dictionaries. Hm. Couldn't you fiddle around a bit with the art and stuff like that? Less art means more room for text means fewer pages per Supe. Still impossible? How about smaller type? :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:43:40 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 3:58 PM -0800 3/29/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > > i was thinking about this the last couple of days, and while i'm > >sure demons are capable of feigning affection, compassion, or any other > >selfless emotion to varying degrees, it's only the Lilim of Lust who > >really have a hard time with Adre's dissonance: despite selfish reasons, > >it's incumbant upon Lilim to care about people, and what they can do for > >those people so that Needs can be met and Geases laid. > Godspeed to quick recovery! > Yes and no -- some Needs, true, they'd have a hard time with. seems this would dramatically inhibit and thereby necessarily focus a Lilim to look specifically for those needs she can fulfill. talk about pragmatic! > (It's that "show no concern" aspect that's the kicker. They, heh, that's what i get for paraphrasing ;) > technically, can't even fake it...) However, if they take SHEESH, that makes the impudites' lives... nah, i won't say it ;) > the right vessels, they can probably make sure they get lots > of hooks just from the "want to have sex" Needs. (Since they > *can* do that, without it counting as 'concern.') one would think Andre simply doesn't assign or ALLOW ordinary, bland, unattractive vessals. i'm frankly surprised his Band Attunements don't include an automatic +1 Charisma (sex appeal effective on both genders), and that as Andre's "favorite band," the Lilim don't get +2 or +3 in addition to sensing Needs by touch of those they've had sex with. querry: does this work only *after* sex, or does it work during sex? obviously it could be used on a previous sex-partner for later sex, making the Lilim more and more adept at doing what that person wants (and garnering BUKKU hooks!), but it would be interesting to see it used during a first time as an eerie "She knows what I want even better than I do!" when they said sex with the devil was spooky, they weren't kidding! also, the "show no concern" crops up again for further difficulty: how attractive--no, i'm not going to bother asking and just go on record as saying it doesn't strike me as attractive to have sex with a limp fish, as it were. lying through body language and the sounds people make during sex to indicate enjoyment... then again, this can be done purely selfishly.... another point: we have the stereotypical bondage den, with accompanying S&M dungeon. everyone assumes Lusties would be great as hosts, right? yet a primary concern of bondage as well as most mainstream S/M (an oxymoron if i ever coined one) is *concern* for the submissive. you can't go around flaying the skin from people's backs (or any number of other sadistic behaviors) and A) expect them to come back (well, without the Balseraph Attunment or the Servitor Attunement whose name i'm blanking on) or B) maintain a role where police aren't constantly storming the establishment to arrest and imprison you. this just isn't practical. Andre is theoretically trying to strengthen his Word. the Word being Lust and not Suffering, one would think he'd try to inspire it in humans _through_ his Servitors rather than have his Servitors act out his Word. further, since actually wounding humans makes a dispicable *noise,* which angels can hear and track you by, it's probably reasonable to conclude that nine times out of ten, Lusties will supervise or inspire lustful actions, but not actually participate. > One also hopes they could be seductive... one would hope! unlike Gabriel's Servitors, who become dissonant by *not* serving their Superior's Word, Lusties become dissonant incidentally almost as a result of serving their Superior's Word. Lust seems a vital Word, and that vitality springs from peoples enjoyment of it, participation in it, and desire to act it out. if Andre's demons are using humans wantonly, Lustfully, for their own ends, humans are going to be *turned off* to sex and lust, rather than depraved to the degree they need to be in order to one day arrive in Hell, having reached their Lustful Fates. seems kinda broken, i'd say. i can't remember the rites ver batim, but between 'have sex for half an hour' (which can possibly garner LOTS of Essence just in one day!)--a rite which involves someone else and possibly inspires Lust in them--and 'publicly and pleasantly view pictographic pornography' (the rewording is deliberate here), it seems Andre awards Essence for either participating in his Word or by luring others to it. the focus is off here. > But it does look like Lusties have to be careful... much more than i had originally thought, and hence my examination of them now. if we see an IN2, it would be nice if the Dissonance Conditions of Lust were revised or revamped entirely. something more along the lines of "concern for human welfare apart from sexual appetites" might work. this neatly fixes the problem and helps devote Servitors to *finding and enhancing* human lust. > huh? -=|horsefly|=- "I'm your huckleberry." --Doc Holiday, TOMBSTONE ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:02:12 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions thank-you, EDG, for answering the question of typoid-mary celestials. -=|horsefly|=- "You better bury Ned right. You better not cut up nor otherwise harm no whores. Or I'll come back and kill every one of you sons of bitches." --William Munny, THE UNFORGIVEN ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:06:11 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 10:38 PM -0800 3/29/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > > on another issue (please forgive me if this has been covered > >countless times before), do Celestial vessals act as carriers of diseases > >even if the Celestial itself doesn't bear the brunt of the virus/bacteria? > > I _think_ that's in the APG or IPG or FAQ as a yes, they don't get sick > but they can be carriers. But I don't recall exactly where... From the FAQ: Do Celestials ever get tired? Feel extremes of temperature? Get sick? Nope. (I'm sure a certain unstoppable rabbit-vessel is a demon in disguise, for example.) As a rule-of-thumb, Celestials are unaffected by temperature down to freezing and up to 100F or thereabouts. Beyond that range they have reduced sensitivity when compared to humans. Celestials are unaffected by Corporeal diseases (but can contract certain diseases designed just for them). This also means that Celestials cannot be 'carriers' in the classic sense of the word, but if one were doused in a bubonic plague culture, someone could be infected from the germs on the outside of the Celestial's skin or clothing. They are, however, affected by drugs but typically have higher stats and withstand the effects better. So if the celestial has unprotected sex AND picks up enough virii/bacteria AND they survive long enough for s/he/it to have unprotected sex with someone else (not difficult for some of Andre's parties), then it's possible to transfer diseases. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:13:42 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Andre's dissonance conditions - -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > also, the "show no concern" crops up again for further difficulty: > how attractive--no, i'm not going to bother asking and just go on record > as saying it doesn't strike me as attractive to have sex with a limp fish, > as it were. lying through body language and the sounds people make during > sex to indicate enjoyment... then again, this can be done purely > selfishly.... You're straying into Djinn territory. When Andre says "show no concern", what he means is don't be sympathetic, not "always act bored". In other words, you can enjoy sex all you want - but there's no "pity sex", and "I've got a headache" should be responded to with "Dammit. Fine, then." Of course, a crafty Lilim could probably work "I've got a headache" into a Need to not have sex... > another point: we have the stereotypical bondage den, with > accompanying S&M dungeon. everyone assumes Lusties would be great as > hosts, right? yet a primary concern of bondage as well as most mainstream > S/M (an oxymoron if i ever coined one) is *concern* for the submissive. > you can't go around flaying the skin from people's backs (or any number of > other sadistic behaviors) and A) expect them to come back (well, without > the Balseraph Attunment or the Servitor Attunement whose name i'm blanking > on) or B) maintain a role where police aren't constantly storming the > establishment to arrest and imprison you. this just isn't practical. It's pragmatism, not concern. Be just sadistic enough that they like it and are begging for more, but not enough that they won't come back. You can even have an in-house medic - not that you're concerned for their well-being, of course, just that it's bad publicity to have people walking out of your store bleeding in funny places. > Andre is theoretically trying to strengthen his Word. the Word > being Lust and not Suffering, one would think he'd try to inspire it in > humans _through_ his Servitors rather than have his Servitors act out his > Word. further, since actually wounding humans makes a dispicable *noise,* > which angels can hear and track you by, it's probably reasonable to > conclude that nine times out of ten, Lusties will supervise or inspire > lustful actions, but not actually participate. > > > One also hopes they could be seductive... > one would hope! unlike Gabriel's Servitors, who become dissonant > by *not* serving their Superior's Word, Lusties become dissonant > incidentally almost as a result of serving their Superior's Word. Lust How? Again, showing no concern is not the same thing as being bored. It's just being unsymptathetic to the souls you're dragging down to the Pit. > seems a vital Word, and that vitality springs from peoples enjoyment of > it, participation in it, and desire to act it out. if Andre's demons are > using humans wantonly, Lustfully, for their own ends, humans are going to > be *turned off* to sex and lust, rather than depraved to the degree they > need to be in order to one day arrive in Hell, having reached their > Lustful Fates. seems kinda broken, i'd say. i can't remember the rites I'm not sure what you mean here. > verbatim, but between 'have sex for half an hour' (which can possibly > garner LOTS of Essence just in one day!)--a rite which involves someone Only one Essence per rite per day (unless it's a multi-Essence rite). > else and possibly inspires Lust in them--and 'publicly and pleasantly view > pictographic pornography' (the rewording is deliberate here), it seems > Andre awards Essence for either participating in his Word or by luring > others to it. the focus is off here. Well, sure. So does Belial. So does Asmodeus, so do Saminga and Valefor and... > > > huh? - -EDG sorry if this goes twice - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1185 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.