From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 5 17:16:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11848 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:16:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA24951 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:07:41 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:07:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199904052207.RAA24951@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1190 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 5 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1190 In this digest: IN> Various IN> A Small Seed Re: IN> Cherubs and Djinn IN> Relic Limitations / Fate-Destiny Questions Re: IN> Relic Limitations / Fate-Destiny Questions Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? IN> A Lilith Attunement.... IN> Correction Re: IN> Cherubim and Djinn Re: IN> Relic Limitations / Fate-Destiny Questions Re: IN> Relic Limitations / Fate-Destiny Questions Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 12:20:52 PDT From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Various Regarding O.J.'s eventual destination, I would say either Nybbas or Malphas. Regarding the celestial appearance of superiors, I like the idea of Novalis as a giant hummingbird or ladybug. However, I didn't know Cherubim could have forms that were non-mammalian! (I don't know why; maybe because all the ones they named in the book were mammals.) So Cherubim could look like praying mantises or eagles or tortoises ... I like this. (On the other hand, I think of Cherubim as warm and snuggly as well as fierce and protective, and it's probably very difficult for even a celestial ladybug or praying mantis to be warm and snuggly, and almost as hard for an eagle or tortoise.) Janet Anderson Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:07:31 -0500 (CDT) From: paranial@creighton.edu Subject: IN> A Small Seed As I said before I am new to all this but however I decided to come up with the small adventrue seed.: They Want a Hangin' This adventrure is more or less for starting angel charecter, any number shall do. But they have to be traveling together. Well while there going along their car breaks down. And they have to walk, in the sun, during summer, for five miles to the nearest town, (Yes their Celestials, But it's still annoying.), Blackwood Mississippi, did I forget to mention that this 1952. When the PC's arrive in town. The will see a group of pepole gathered along Main Street. They are gather around an impreesive dressed man who is giving a speech that is getteing the locals real riled up, a Precpetion Roll should dectect some sort of disturbance in the Symphony revaling the man to be a Celestial soon after, a loud bouming voice should be calling out to "Break it up" this is coming from a tall muscular man in the Glasses and wide brimmed hat of Southeren Sheriff's everywhere, acompanied by a few of his deputies, the speaker shall attempt to turn the crowed against the sheiriff but, guess what, the sheriff preforms the Etheral Song of Harmony (yup, he's a Celestial too), and the crowd disperces and the speaker sulks away. The PC's should be trying to digest the events. The Sheriff will we suddly notice them, note confused look on their face and ask, "Heard a little noise boys?" If they don't get what he is trying to say right away have them make an Intelligence roll, they should answer yes and the sheriff should lead them to his office. Once in his office the Sheriff should identify himself as Lucaziel, Seraph of Judgement "but to everyone here in Lucas McCord, Sheriff of Blackwood". He will then wait for the PC's to identify themselves, and explain the situation. Appearently a girl the town got "in trouble", (this is the words he will use, this is 1952 remeber "Pregnant" is not a word you say in polite conversation) and of course Daddy wanted to know why so she gave the standard answer that lose Southeren girls gave when father wanted to know why the were "with child", a black man raped her. When he wanted to know who, she picked one that worked for a nearby grocer foutunatly for the Black man the father went to the sheriff. He questioned both the black man and the girl and naturally learned the Truth, that the Black man didn't rape and the true father of the child was the Quaterback of the High School Football team. Scince he, of course had reputation of finding the truth, and was trusted by the pepole of Blackwood, that would've been the end of the matter. Enter Fulatolok, aka Randall Fulerton a Balseraph of Factions who was waiting for this very opprutunity. He went around leaking the matter to the pepole in the town, (Gossip spreads in small towns, ask Rezog, demon of Small Town Gossip). And get eveyone relied up and ready to exact "Justice", (1952, Black Man, Small Town, Mississippi. You do the Math). Of course he has turned much of town against Lucaziel branding him a "n*gg*r lover". He is not even sure if he can trust his deputies. So asks the PC's to help. The rest is left to the GM. I'll come uo with Sats later Comments Welcome Bradley Paranial, ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 16:58:01 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Cherubs and Djinn Bradley Paranial paranial@creighton.edu wrote: > >As we all know the afromention Celestial Beings are winged animals, or in >the case of Djinn, animal Mishmashes in Celstial Form so what do the >Supirors look like. > >Blandine & Novalis: For some reason i'd have to say Unicorns in both >cases. IMC, Blandine was a unicorn, too. But Novalis appeared as a giant lion, 10 feet tall at the shoulder, with teeth to match. I was inspired by Aslan from CS Lewis's Narnia stories. >Asmodeus: Not pick up any visual. Let's consult Loius Ginzberg's _The Legends of the Jews_ for a description straight from the source: "One day [Solomon] told Asmodeus that he did not understand where the greatness of the demons lay, if their king could be kept in bonds by a mortal. Asmodeus replied, that if Solomon would remove his chains and lend him the magic ring, he would prove his own greatness. Solomon agreed. The demon stood before him with one wing touching heaven and the other reaching to earth. [...] The sight of Asmodeus in all his forbidding ugliness had so terrified him that henceforth he surrounded his couch at night with all the valiant heroes among the people." So I think it's safe to say you don't want to meet him in a dark alleyway. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:27:49 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Relic Limitations / Fate-Destiny Questions >>> Just got my hands on the LR, and ended up wondering a few things about the relic limits. It's possible for a relic to be limited to use by Angels, Demons, or Humans, but can this limitation be fooled?<<< Probably not. The relic isn't intelligent and isn't making a conscious decision as to whether or not to "let" someone activate it -- you have to have the correct nature. >>> I was thinking, specifically, about if a Demon with the Humanity attunement can use a Human-only relic, but unable to use Demon-only relics.<<< I'd say no -- he's still a demon. >>>Also, can Kronos' Belseraphs use their claims to Angelic resonances enough to lie to the Symphony and use an Angel-only relic?<<< No. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:41:07 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Relic Limitations / Fate-Destiny Questions At 8:32 AM -0500 4/4/99, Shadowstar wrote: > > Just got my hands on the LR, and ended up wondering a few things about > >the relic limits. It's possible for a relic to be limited to use by > >Angels, Demons, or Humans, but can this limitation be fooled? > > As a Malakite of Fate, I too would like to know the answer to this >question. Certainly any GM could rule one way or another, but perhaps a >Canon clarification will help. It's not like this falls under CDaU after >all. . . > > >Kronos' Belseraphs use their claims to Angelic resonances enough to lie > > (BTW, It's Balseraphim for the plural, and Balseraph for the singular. >I'll take that Nitpicking Essence now. . .) I'll see that nitpick and raise you a nitpick. In the description of the Balseraph Band and in every Superior description with the Balseraph band attunement, it is consistantly spelled "Balseraphs." So, Seraphim fall and become Balseraphs. Balseraphs redeem and become Seraphim. Nit a nitpicker -- is that a rite? - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:52:17 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? At 1:03 PM -0400 4/4/99, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy > >Now all that remains to be done is to put duct tape over the eyes and >mouth, and wax in the angel's ears, and you have the perfect accessory >for any demonic meeting place -- a big hunk of concrete that prevents >the people meeting there from being violent. > >(This actually happened to one of the PCs in my game. Trauma was deemed >to remove him from the picture too briefly for certain schemes to come >to fruition, so more complicated means were called for.) Neel -- that is evil. Full out, one hundred percent evil. My compliments. Keep up the good work. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 18:40:34 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? At 01:03 PM 4/4/99 -0400, you wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy >>At 5:05 PM +0200 4/2/99, Yossi Gurvitz wrote: >>>At 11:58 02/04/99 , you wrote: >>> >>>>And this is why every so often instead of giving that vessel to a Malakite >>>>it is instead given to, say, a Mercurian of Novalis... >>> ...which still identifies the Mercurian as an angel. Bad idea. >> >>. o O (So give it to a Seraph of Novalis. Sure, it's an angel, >> but what are they going to *do* about it?) > >That's *easy*. You call the Game. > >Three or four Servitors of the Game show up, and nail the angel with >their chains of Dissonance Binding. (AFAICT, it doesn't require that >the target actually have dissonance to work.) Now, the angel is >immobilized and can't flee by going celestial. > >Now, take the angel and put one of those convenient little artifiacts >that prevent the spending of essence around one of its limbs, and bury >the angel in a block of concrete, covering the artifact. Now, when the >dissonance binding wears off, it will still be immobilized and helpless. > >Now all that remains to be done is to put duct tape over the eyes and >mouth, and wax in the angel's ears, and you have the perfect accessory >for any demonic meeting place -- a big hunk of concrete that prevents >the people meeting there from being violent. > >(This actually happened to one of the PCs in my game. Trauma was deemed >to remove him from the picture too briefly for certain schemes to come >to fruition, so more complicated means were called for.) > this is so so evil that I am tempted to fall myself just so i can do evil things like this. Ben Elohite of Flowers serving stone(but doubting) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 20:25:55 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? At 6:40 PM -0400 4/4/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >At 01:03 PM 4/4/99 -0400, you wrote: > >this is so so evil that I am tempted to fall myself just so i can do evil >things like this. > >Ben Elohite of Flowers serving stone(but doubting) Now that's an interesting image. "Master... I have considered all of my options and elected to fall." "Excuse me? You're not dissonant -- you're still purely objective. Why would you want to Fall?" "It is a truism that one should enjoy what one does, yes?" "Well, yes...." "Therefore, one should objectively determine what professions allow the most opportunity to enjoy their work, yes?" "Yessss...." "Therefore, I am going to become a Habbalite of Dark Humor. Objectively, it's the only recourse." - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 20:46:32 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> A Lilith Attunement.... So, *THE* Mason Kramer and I were talking, and playing with some ideas for a couple of soldiers in imminent danger of being recruited by a Lilim. And in playing with dialogue as one (the wife) is speaking to a doctor, she said "I would pay *any* price if you could make him well? Can you? If not, then get out." So I comment to Mason that those are the magic words, and he ran with it. "Yes! Reverberating throughout the Symphony like a beacon of desire, Lilim being drawn like flies...." He then got that thoughtful look I fear (and made up, since we communicate digitally). "Hm. A distinction Lilith might give her favored children... at a price...." He offered to let me write it up. On reflection, it won't be a distinction, since Lilith doesn't really play that... but as a rare attunement.... YOU CALLED...? A Lilim with this attunement has a chance to hear when someone in her area 'invokes' her presence. Whenever someone says "I would pay anything for..." or any variant of this, and the Lilim is in the general area, she can make a perception roll to "overhear" the reverberations of the wish through the symphony. The Lilim doesn't know who made that wish just yet, or what they want. However, she may *immediately* make a resonance roll. Success means both knowing who the person is, and what it is they want. From this point forward, the Lilim can treat the need like any other. If fulfilled, it gives the Lilim a hook she can call in at any time. One important difference is that a person who *says* "I'd give anything for a night with Cindy Crawford" probably doesn't mean it -- but unlike a need seen within his eyes, a Lilim may treat that stated goal as a real one. So be careful what you wish for.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 20:49:18 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> Correction In that last post, I *meant* to say that it was a distinction, since (according to p.150 of IN) she doesn't grant attunements, but uncommonly gives distinctions. Really. Honest. That's what I meant.... (Nitpicking dissonance. And I don't even Serve that Superior. Ugh.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 09:26:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Cherubim and Djinn Novalis: A while back, I decided Novalis's native shape was a bumblebee the size of a carthorse, wreathed with pink and green haloes.This might also meet Janet Anderson's requirements for something cuddly ... broadly speaking. Blandine: Hm. I toyed with a swan, but I think a dove would work better, symbolically. If it should look a little supernaturally unnatural, it could have four wings, like the cherubim in Ezekiel's vision. Beleth: A raven, the dove's opposite number in the Noah story. Nightmarishly, it is a skeletal raven, with ragged remains of feathers on the wings. Asmodeus: How about a vulture with far too many heads? 'Course, this means that, underneath the appearance of a Schwartzeneggery hunk, Michael is really a six-eyed snake. (Personally, I prefer to picture seraphim and bals as Chinese dragons with six wings. This lets them be snakey, but also lets them match the description in Isaiah, where they have six wings, hands, and feet.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:33:43 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Relic Limitations / Fate-Destiny Questions At 1:15 +0100 4/4/99, Molt wrote: > Just got my hands on the LR, and ended up wondering a few things about >the relic limits. It's possible for a relic to be limited to use by >Angels, Demons, or Humans, but can this limitation be fooled? I was >thinking, specifically, about if a Demon with the Humanity attunement can >use a Human-only relic, but unable to use Demon-only relics. I would say that generally, you can't fool such limits. But the Humanity attunement is *very* powerful -- in my campaign, I think I'd treat the demon as a human, even for the purposes of using a relic. Of course, demons using Humanity can't use Songs, so in generaly, they can't use *any* relic, unless maybe it's one a mundane could operate. > Also, can >Kronos' Belseraphs use their claims to Angelic resonances enough to lie >to the Symphony and use an Angel-only relic? I would say no, though I'd allow them to use a Choir-restricted relic that matches their adopted Choir (ditto for those angels using Yves similar distinction). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:10:56 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Relic Limitations / Fate-Destiny Questions Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >I was > >thinking, specifically, about if a Demon with the Humanity attunement can > >use a Human-only relic, but unable to use Demon-only relics. > > I could *easily* see that. (With the sole exception of things which > were created by Lucifer or God -- which *might* be usable, or might not.) I would allow it with no problem. I like Beth's take on God/Lucifer items. Both of the two obviously are good enough to make something to detect human-ness and both evidence a sense of humor as well. ;) > > >Also, can > >Kronos' Belseraphs use their claims to Angelic resonances enough to lie > >to the Symphony and use an Angel-only relic? Nope. Their nature is not angelic, they can just fake some of the abilities. Now if a relic were restricted to a certain Choir, there would be a plausible argument... > > Whilst thinking about Kronos I also remembered something I ended up > >dealing with whilst dealing with one of his followers in a game I ran. > >A PC Demon determined that a certain human's Fate was to kill his mother, > >but later on in the game session a different PC demon killed the mother. > >I played it that the Human had successfully avoided their Fate in this > >life, but is that right? > > It seems plausible, yes -- though you could (and I would) expand that > to mother-figures. An adopted mother, a "she's always been like a mother > to me" mentor/teacher/neighbor down the street, etc. Heh, fun take on things. Or, if you want to get LITERARY and all, perhaps that the dead woman was the adopted mother and his/her real mother is still out there... ;) > > >If a human had the Destiny to become the world's > >foremost child pianist, who's music would soothe leaders and avoid a war, > >would they still have the same Destiny further down the line when they've > >ended up in the army fighting in the very war they were Destined to > >prevent? In short, is Destiny (and Fate) a fluid possibility which gets > >reduced as someone goes through life, or an absolute determined at birth, > >or even determined when a Celestial looks at it? IMO, this is a GM call (see Beth's answers... she gives two valid POVs, both of which have interesting correlaries). Some possibilities: F/D are fixed when a soul is created and follow it from life to life until one or the other is reached F/D are set at birth, and cannot change until a soul dies (but may follow to a next life) F/D are set at birth, but can shift depending on circumstances Then you can throw in the bizarre axis: Both F and D are ALWAYS possible in a human's life regardless of circumstances. The symphony always provides a way to achieve both. F/D can be 'missed' during a lifetime if the opportunity goes by. Free Will: F/D can be superceded by a _greater_ Fate or Destiny (or sidetracked) F/D are fixed, so if someone doesn't achieve it, it means the time wasn't 'right' I much prefer that GMs be able to mix and match the above (plus other spins, I'm sure). - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:14:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? At 1:03 PM -0400 4/4/99, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy >>At 5:05 PM +0200 4/2/99, Yossi Gurvitz wrote: >>>At 11:58 02/04/99 , you wrote: >>> >>>>And this is why every so often instead of giving that vessel to a Malakite >>>>it is instead given to, say, a Mercurian of Novalis... >>> ...which still identifies the Mercurian as an angel. Bad idea. >> >>. o O (So give it to a Seraph of Novalis. Sure, it's an angel, >> but what are they going to *do* about it?) > >That's *easy*. You call the Game. > >Three or four Servitors of the Game show up, and nail the angel with >their chains of Dissonance Binding. (AFAICT, it doesn't require that >the target actually have dissonance to work.) It requires that the target have at least one note of dissonance, yes. (It wouldn't use the term "dissonance" if it didn't!) >(This actually happened to one of the PCs in my game. Trauma was deemed >to remove him from the picture too briefly for certain schemes to come >to fruition, so more complicated means were called for.) Hee. That's funny. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 08:12:04 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Insects At 10:50 AM -0500 3/30/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Steve Jessop wrote: > >> That would be the one-flea Kyrio with Strength 12 and Claws/6 ? :-) > >Yeah, sort of like a free-ranging dentist drill, out gouging for God. I'm reminded of a certain Orange Juice commercial... - -- Nana Yaw Ofori nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1190 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.