From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Apr 7 10:17:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00699 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:17:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA31757 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:09:47 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:09:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199904071509.KAA31757@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1192 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, April 7 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1192 In this digest: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? IN> Attunements for Everyone or I found a loophole Re: IN> Seraphim of Novalis Re: IN> Attunements for Everyone or I found a loophole Re: IN> Seraphim of Novalis Re: IN> Seraphim of Novalis Re: IN> Attunements for Everyone or I found a loophole Re: IN> Attunements for Everyone or I found a loophole IN> Re: Why can't Malakim Fall? (or why I hate Elohim) Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Seraphim of Novalis Re: IN> Re: Why can't Malakim Fall? (or why I hate Elohim) IN> Webpage update. . . IN> Original Dan Smith (SMIF) artwork auction! Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? IN> Elohim and free will Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Re: IN> Re: Why can't Malakim Fall? (or why I hate Elohim) Re: IN> Attunements for Everyone or I found a loophole ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:04:16 -0500 (CDT) From: paranial@creighton.edu Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Eeyore wrote: > > > Yeah, Novalis is going to give them a lecture they've never imagined. > > Does anybody else have images from Addams Family Values and the camp hut? > > I don't think Novalis would settle for a lecture. I think Novalis would > inflict Discord. Merciful and Selfless, probably..... > > Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com > > > Ouch, The Archangel of Flowers can be rather sadistic when she wants to be. But they should still be thankful that it wasn't on of Michael, Dominc, Laurence or (Heaven help them) GABRIEL'S Servitors that they gave the Jimmy Hoffa Burial to. Bradley Paranial, Mecurian of War, who for some reason always pictures Dominc with as Tim Curry. And thinks that Seraphim and Balseraphs could be made into rather adorable plush dolls. (Celestal Forms anyway, On my God, I think I gave Nybbas a new idea.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:30:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? On Tue, 6 Apr 1999 paranial@creighton.edu wrote: > Ouch, The Archangel of Flowers can be rather sadistic when she wants to > be. Peaceful doesn't mean *nice*. Novalis does wish everybody well, but she's willing to be seriously underhanded and occasionally nasty to accomplish what she wants done. > Bradley Paranial, Mecurian of War, who for some reason always pictures > Dominc with as Tim Curry. And thinks that Seraphim and Balseraphs could be > made into rather adorable plush dolls. (Celestal Forms anyway, On my God, > I think I gave Nybbas a new idea.) Superior Beanies! Read Fiat Justica and get your Superior Beanies! http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html (Speaking of Fiat Justica, is it still ongoing? The site hasn't been updated in a while and I miss my Fiat Justica fix.) Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 20:33:32 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? James M. Zoshak wrote: > >>On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Steel Angel wrote: >>> Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >> >>> > Now, take the angel and put one of those convenient little artifiacts >>> > that prevent the spending of essence around one of its limbs, and bury >>> > the angel in a block of concrete, covering the artifact. Now, when the >>> > dissonance binding wears off, it will still be immobilized and helpless. >> >>> Yes but, can't it go Celestial -then-? >> >>It costs Essence to go Celestial. > >How did you get your PC _out_ of this mess? To explain, we'll need some context. Evi (aka Jo Baird) was the Impudite of the Game in charge of the local demons in-game. It happened that Jozer, one of the PCs, thought that she was redeemable. Hoycyr -- the PC who was imprisoned -- was a Malak of Creation in service to Michael who was really big on the whole demon-hunting thing. Among the angels, there were a lot of arguments about whether or not Jo should be smited; Jozer thought no and Hoycyr thought yes. Now, Evi had promised Asmodeus Jozer's soul, but one problem was that he was in frequent contact with other angels -- it's hard to trip up someone when he's around friends who will set him straight. So, she decided that she needed to cause a rift between the militant and pacifist angels. So she had her boys grab Hoycyr and put him in the concrete block. (Since he was a Malak, killing him would just mean that he shows up in thirty seconds later in a fresh vessel.) Then, when Hoycyr vanished, Evi convinced Jozer to make a deal he really shouldn't have to get Hoycyr back. (Jozer was afraid that the demons would summon a Prince and get him to obliterate Hoycyr completely.) Once he agrees to the deal (and since Jozer is a Cherub it's really hard for him to go back on a promise, and he was attuned to Evi to boot), one of Evi's thugs mutilates and tortures Hoycyr's body until the vessel croaks (and the soul returns to Heaven). Michael, who retrieved Hoycyr was *amazingly* not happy at what had happened to his warrior. Michael then told Hoycyr that he would lose the dissonance for capture once he had publically killed every demon in town.(*) He also extended Hoycyr carte blanche for fresh vessels. Evi had accomplished her goal -- she had talked Jozer into making a deal with her, and made Hoycyr absolutely unwilling to compromise on her death. She thought she had successfully created a breanch in angelic unity, which meant that it was now more feasible for her to cut Jozer off from the other angels and warp his thinking. (*) This wasn't simple bluster on Michael's part: there was a civil war in Hell at the time, and Michael wanted to toast as many demonic Roles as possible at a time when Hell was too busy to properly reconstruct them. He was willing to trade Vessels freely, since he thought removing demons from positions of influence in society was a more-than-worthwhile trade. Plus, Michael figured that demons were generally vengeful enough that after being cacked they would waste time retaliating against Hoycyr that they could have spent tempting mortals. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:52:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Evi had accomplished her goal -- she had talked Jozer into making a > deal with her, and made Hoycyr absolutely unwilling to compromise on > her death. She thought she had successfully created a breanch in > angelic unity, which meant that it was now more feasible for her to > cut Jozer off from the other angels and warp his thinking. So what happened then? Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:35:04 -0400 From: "Kelly W. West" Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? On Tue, 6 Apr 1999 Bradley Paranial wrote: >Bradley Paranial, Mecurian of War, who for some reason always pictures >Dominc with as Tim Curry. And thinks that Seraphim and Balseraphs could be >made into rather adorable plush dolls. (Celestal Forms anyway, On my God, >I think I gave Nybbas a new idea.) I can see it now. A saturday morning cartoon with Winged, furry, six-eyed snakes in pastel colors. Dolling out sickly sweet platitudes between commercials for cereal and toys. (Hey, get Haagenti and Mammon on the phone to sponsor this.) A line of plush dolls, activity books and even their very own computer games. The Seraphic Council is going to love it, NOT!!! (The cherubs will be glad to have somebody else getting ribbed. Babies with wings? Puh-Lease!) Obviously this has to be orchestrated by Kobal. Cabaniel (Call me Cob) Ofanim of Wind. AKA kelly W. West ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:19:31 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? >To explain, we'll need some context. Evi (aka Jo Baird) was the Impudite >of the Game in charge of the local demons in-game. It happened that Jozer, >one of the PCs, thought that she was redeemable. Hoycyr -- the PC who >was imprisoned -- was a Malak of Creation in service to Michael who was >really big on the whole demon-hunting thing. Fascinating -- thanks! Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:39:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Attunements for Everyone or I found a loophole I was thinking about humans in In Nomine the other day when I realized that while only soldiers can use songs and spend essence consciously, there is no such rule regarding attunements. I looked thoroughly through both the main rule book and Night Music and I could not find a statement anywhere explicitly stating normal humans couldn't be granted attunements. Theoretically any Superior or Word Bound could grant a servitor attunement to a mundane and he could use it provided it required no conscious spending of essence. That includes a lot of nifty attunements on both sides, like Yves' Divine Logic, Jean's Remote Control, Beleth's Dreamwalking, and Valefor's Passage. If I'm right this would affect how mortals are viewed, recruited, and used in the War. A mundane in the right place with the right attunement (like Divine Logic) can do as much good as a soldier or celestial. Mundanes might be given attunements as reward (from Angels) or bribe (from Demons) for working for them, with attunements being relatively less expensive than granting a sixth force. And mundane servants, even with attunements, can do nothing to disturb the Symphony. Mortal involvment in the War would be increased. So the queston is, does this loophole really exist, or has it been plugged somewhere I missed? And if it hasn't been plugged, should it be? If one considers all the options equally, one must conclude attunements for mundanes is a neat idea and should be at least be left open as a possibility if not a solid part of cannon. What does everyone else think? Ben Elohite of Eli, Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:42:36 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Novalis At 5:25 PM -0500 4/6/99, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > If you're shot at from a distance, use the Song of Shields (or for that > > matter, Celestial Motion). Anyway, why would you want to turn it off? > >Not every angel has either Song. I played a Mercurian of Novalis with >Seraph resonance who didn't have anything else combat-related (well, a >couple of skills at 1, I think) until I acquired Corp Shields in play. >Furthermore, Songs take Essence, which you can easily run low on. > >You want to turn the ability off if you need to be violent, or let your >friends be violent. Novalis prohibits unnecessary violence, after all, >not all violence whatsoever. Mm. But I would think that (barring Armaggedon) the Seraphim, as Most Holy, would be encouraged to call in someone else to be violent and to try and find a nonviolent resolution, regardless... I would think that it would be practically dissonant for a Seraph to even engage in necessary violence -- it would certainly be traumatic. >(Being able to stop fights and then allow them to start again is >incredibly powerful. Think what Michael's people would do with it.) Wouldn't forcing a fight to stop constitute a form of withdrawal without a direct order, and therefore be dissonant? (Besides, they *can* do this. It's called Invocation. Trust me, I don't care *what* demon you are. The appearance of an Archangel in jeans, no shirt, and long hair holding a battleaxe will make you *very* willing to talk peace terms.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:55:25 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Attunements for Everyone or I found a loophole At 9:39 PM -0500 4/6/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: >I was thinking about humans in In Nomine the other day when I realized >that while only soldiers can use songs and spend essence consciously, >there is no such rule regarding attunements. Why do I see Kobal granting attunements to eight year old children.... > So the queston is, does this loophole really exist, or has it been >plugged somewhere I missed? And if it hasn't been plugged, should it be? >If one considers all the options equally, one must conclude attunements >for mundanes is a neat idea and should be at least be left open as a >possibility if not a solid part of cannon. What does everyone else think? Neat idea! (Oh great, I just gave Ben essence.) I'm not sure about it, though. It seems to me that attunements would require being Symphonically aware to properly use, which implies having that sixth force. I'm not against the idea, but I'm not sure that the spirit of the rules permits it. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:07:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Novalis On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > At 5:25 PM -0500 4/6/99, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: [Seraphim of Novalis] > >You want to turn the ability off if you need to be violent, or let your > >friends be violent. Novalis prohibits unnecessary violence, after all, > >not all violence whatsoever. > Mm. But I would think that (barring Armaggedon) the Seraphim, as > Most Holy, would be encouraged to call in someone else to be violent > and to try and find a nonviolent resolution, regardless... I would > think that it would be practically dissonant for a Seraph to even > engage in necessary violence -- it would certainly be traumatic. First, the ability can be given to other Choirs who serve Novalis. Second, I don't see why Seraphim would be less violent than other angels of Novalis. The Seraphim are the closest Choir to God, but that does not necessarily mean they're the closest Choir to their Archangel. I would think that the Archangel's own Choir would be closest in nature and nonviolence to her -- and that even Fire Cherubim will be more than willing to engage in violence to protect their charges. The Seraph resonance is a blunt, uncompromising thing. Things are true or untrue, black or white. I don't see any connection to nonviolence in it. In fact, I think it's part of why the two Seraph Archangels are War Party. > >(Being able to stop fights and then allow them to start again is > >incredibly powerful. Think what Michael's people would do with it.) > Wouldn't forcing a fight to stop constitute a form of withdrawal > without a direct order, and therefore be dissonant? I didn't think of that. Hm. I don't think so, no. Using the attunement is not fleeing the scene or giving up on the current fight. It's analogous to ducking behind cover while you Sing Claws or Form, not running away. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:21:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Novalis On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > Second, I don't see why Seraphim would be less violent than other angels > of Novalis. The Seraphim are the closest Choir to God, but that does not > necessarily mean they're the closest Choir to their Archangel. I would > think that the Archangel's own Choir would be closest in nature and > nonviolence to her -- and that even Fire Cherubim will be more than > willing to engage in violence to protect their charges. Um, that was Flower Cherubim. My fingers got away from my brain. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:01:33 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Attunements for Everyone or I found a loophole I wouldn't allow humans to have attunements unless they were Symphonically aware. (And I need to think about I putting this into GURPS IN somewhere....) Basically, attunements are stronger connections to the Symphony that allow you better perception or manipulation of it, in some aspect of some Word. That sounds to me like it shouldn't work for mundanes. Note also that servitor attunements are the same point cost (10) as extra Forces, so it isn't really cheaper to make an attuned mundane than to make a Soldier. And a Soldier is a lot cheaper to upgrade (and more flexible), using Songs. In GURPS IN, there's another advantage to making Soldiers -- they regenerate Essence a *lot* faster than celestials, though they have a lot less to work with at one time. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:13:18 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Attunements for Everyone or I found a loophole At 12:01 AM -0400 4/7/99, Walter Milliken wrote: > In GURPS IN, there's another advantage to making >Soldiers -- they regenerate Essence a *lot* faster than celestials, though >they have a lot less to work with at one time. I know we discussed that when it first came up... there was a certain amount of resistance to the idea. However, I wonder if that might not be a good idea in IN proper as well. Somehow, it implies that mankind (while still living) has a value to the most selfish of demons, beyond metaphysics. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 04:29:11 PDT From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Re: Why can't Malakim Fall? (or why I hate Elohim) >>this is so so evil that I am tempted to fall myself just so i can do evil >>things like this. >> >>Ben Elohite of Flowers serving stone(but doubting) > >Now that's an interesting image. > >"Master... I have considered all of my options and elected to fall." > >"Excuse me? You're not dissonant -- you're still purely objective. >Why would you want to Fall?" > >"It is a truism that one should enjoy what one does, yes?" > >"Well, yes...." > >"Therefore, one should objectively determine what professions allow >the most opportunity to enjoy their work, yes?" > >"Yessss...." > >"Therefore, I am going to become a Habbalite of Dark Humor. >Objectively, it's the only recourse." And of course once this does happen, The resulting Habblite will of course know that it was right all along... On second thoughts, why become a Habblite? After all, if the Elohite's motives aren't selfish, if could objectively conclude that the rebellion was right. After all, they have only the word of the Angels that it was wrong, and they are, you have to admit, sort of biased about the whole thing. I can easily see an Elohite, if all the facts prove that heaven was wrong, deciding to throw in with hell. On third thoughts, it would be dissonant for it not to! I've always had this problem with Elohim, because they have basically, no free will. They can't act according to their wishes, or even according to their archangel's will, unless they have an objectively good reason to. They can't follow up on their faith, they need evidence. And that means that they would find it very difficult to serve heaven, because there is no real, concrete proof that god exists, and even if he does exist, there is no real reason for them to serve him. What do they objectively gain? What's to stop them from concluding thatLucifer was right? So can someone explain them to me? Confused, ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:04:43 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 01:39:04PM -0500, EDG wrote: > I agree. Perhaps it should be amended, though; not only the > non-violence radius, but anyone trying to be violent to one of these > guys must make a Will roll (minus the Flowerite's Celestial Forces, > maybe?). > I say no. It's already immensely powerful when it can't be turned off. I can think of a number of occasions when characters of mine would have been much better off if they had the attunement, and very few when it would have been a disadvantage. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I shall stomp upon all who oppose me. The stomping shall be swift. The stomping shall be painful. And I shall show no mercy In all of my stomping. Amen." - Jeff Tidball philosophises. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 08:49:07 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Novalis Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > >You want to turn the ability off if you need to be violent, or let your >friends be violent. Novalis prohibits unnecessary violence, after all, >not all violence whatsoever. (Being able to stop fights and then allow >them to start again is incredibly powerful. Think what Michael's people >would do with it.) Er, that's the Mercurians of War, who have what is probably the most powerful of all the angelic choir attunements. They know what it will take to bring peace between any two people they have ever met, however briefly. (The Seraph of Judgement is a close second, though.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:43:04 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: Why can't Malakim Fall? (or why I hate Elohim) At 4:29 AM -0700 4/7/99, Hydrax 59 wrote: >I've always had this problem with Elohim, because they have >basically, no free will. They can't act according to their wishes, or >even according to their archangel's will, unless they have an >objectively good reason to. They can't follow up on their faith, they >need evidence. And that means that they would find it very difficult >to serve heaven, because there is no real, concrete proof that god >exists, and even if he does exist, there is no real reason for them >to serve him. What do they objectively gain? What's to stop them from >concluding thatLucifer was right? > >So can someone explain them to me? All right, here's my at-bat for it.... Elohim are attuned, if you will, to two things. One is an overall objective -- the promotion of selflessness over selfishness. Objectivity is the method they use to reach that, and in a way it makes them the best at it, since they're not biased by selfish subjectivity but instead they can follow an objective path. This is why they serve in the war. Why do they accept that selflessness is better than selfishness? Because that assumption is the baseline of their creation. It is reflected in the sounds of the Symphony that they hear -- *all* evidence suggests that selflessness is the proper course. Not only all of the Angels they meet (which in their formative years is almost all beings they encounter) but the very notes of the universe echo with the glory of setting the whole before the one. That is the very *heart* of the Elohite perspective -- they objectively seek all viewpoints instead of a single viewpoint, and decide from there. Literally every demon they meet is fixated on a single, selfish viewpoint and therefore is anathema to the Elohite's way of doing things. Therefore, he is more likely to credit other, more inclusive viewpoints than the demon's, which leads them to promoting the Angelic way of doing things. Secondly, Elohim are attuned to their Superior's Word. That Word (and then Words of their own if they are given one) are a huge part of the Elohite's being. The promotion of that Word is literally what the Elohite's existence cries out for. The Elohite makes his decisions with that Word in mind. When he works against that Word, he takes Dissonance -- his very being fractures, and he has direct evidence that his course of action is incorrect and objectively should be changed. Their Superiors are the Word Bound for that Word. In serving that Word, the Elohim are serving the personification of that Word and that Word's promotion. The Superior (even Gabriel in her insanity) has a far wider perspective of the needs of the Word, and therefore are difficult to disagree with -- if Dominic tells a Servitor to judge someone that the Elohite does not feel warrants it, he must assume that his Superior, the very Embodiment of the Word Judgement, knows what he is doing and execute his will. He cannot possibly gather enough viewpoints to contridict someone with so broad a perspective. To believe his opinion is better than his Superior's therefore is an act of faith. Subjective faith. Dissonant faith. Emotion is outweighing rationality. Therefore, Elohim obey their Archangels because they have to assume the Archangel has a better grasp of the Word they serve and the situation of that Word than the Elohite does. To believe otherwise is to believe the Elohite's limited perspective is superior to the Archangel's wider perspective, which being an emotional decision means dissonance if acted upon. When acting against the Word itself (and therefore violating Dissonance conditions), the Universe objectively lets the Elohite know he is wrong. And selflessness and Heaven's side, objectively, is the correct course of action because it is centered on the Symphony of the whole, not the Symphony of the individual demon. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:16:01 -0500 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Webpage update. . . Greetings, All right my personal IN webpage has gotten a major overhaul and retrofit (URL in my .sig). Go check it out, and let me know (visa-via - -PRIVATE- email) what you think of the changes. (The changes include compabitility with SJGames current Online Policies concerning IN NOMINE.) Oh, and anyone who -had- linked to my character sheets, please note the new URL is: http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine/resources/csheets.html They are also -directly- linkable by my new index page. . . *grin* Enjoy! Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:55:36 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Original Dan Smith (SMIF) artwork auction! I'm posting this to the list because I think people will be interested, and because it's *SMIF* -- can we get more on-topic than this? (But I don't want this to turn into a *general* marketplace, 'kay?) Send Smif Email -- he doesn't read this list, and so if you bid on the list, he won't get it! I don't know if I'll be posting *daily* results -- but I'll try! >From: Dan Smith > >FOR SALE, TWO UNIQUE IN NOMINE HARDCOVERS (BLACK AND WHITE) > >WHITE BOOK: Has the ORIGINAL illustration of the angel on the players >sheet attached to the inside front cover (with photo corners for easy >removal if wished, signed), autographed on the inside by the artist (in >his inimitable style ;) ), and an ORIGINAL color pencil illustration of >the book's GUARDIAN ANGEL on the inside back cover! This one's >straight out of Yves library, a keeper. > >BLACK BOOK: Same as above with the following changes: The ORIGINAL demon >illustration from the players sheet, ORIGINAL color pencil illustration >of the book's GUARDIAN DEMON on the inside back cover! You will be >the envy of all in your band, with this tome. > >I have created these with the intent to make a special book set unlike >any other. I will NOT do this type of presentation again. Due to the >nature of these books, the significance of the key illustrations >presented and the special unique color illustrations in each book, there >will never be another set like them. > >Ever. > >The books will be sold separately, please state which book you are >bidding on by either preface WB or BB. (Example $55.00BB.) > >I will post daily results here. > >If you have any questions, feel free to email me. > >Smif ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:54:31 -0400 (EDT) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? At 7:04 PM 4/6/99, paranial@creighton.edu wrote: >Bradley Paranial, Mecurian of War, who for some reason always pictures >Dominc with as Tim Curry. And thinks that Seraphim and Balseraphs could be >made into rather adorable plush dolls. New Hug-a-Bals! They're Ser-iffic! (Available in red, garnet, crimson, vermillion, burgundy...) - --- jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life) Amalgam of the Day: Wesley Dodds and werther@hilander.com (play) Tom Servo in SANDMAN MYSTERY THEATRE jayafter12am@hotmail.com (late-night) 3000. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:04:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: IN> Elohim and free will On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Hydrax 59 wrote: > I've always had this problem with Elohim, because they have > basically, no free will. False. (Unless you believe in predeterminism, in which case NO ONE has free will, but I won't get into that.) > They can't act according to their wishes, or > even according to their archangel's will, unless they have an > objectively good reason to. True. See, the two sentences there are saying two totally different things. Elohim have the same amount of free will as everyone else, they can take the same initiative as everyone else, and they have the same feelings and emotions as everyone else - they just can't follow 'hunches' or put their feelings ahead of their objectivism. They can even go out and do something purely for frivolous fun, if there's nothing more important for them to be doing at that moment. You seem to think that "Elohim can't do something unless they have an objectively good reason to" is tantamount to being a robot. But look at your own life, and every small action you take. I'd be willing to bet that 80-90% of your own actions every day have good, objective reasons behind them. You go to work to make money, or you to go school to learn. You eat to stay healthy, even though you choose which place to eat based on your personal palette. (The only thing an Elohite would be biased for, if human, would be for healthier food instead of unhealthy food.) You get online to share information and learn, and so on. > They can't follow up on their faith, they > need evidence. And that means that they would find it very difficult > to serve heaven, because there is no real, concrete proof that god > exists, Er, perhaps we, as humans, can say that, but I think an ANGEL has quite a BIT of concrete proof that God exists! I mean, they live in Heaven, with the Archangels, and God himself - who MADE the forces that make up the angel (and I'd imagine this is ingrained in their subconscious memory some way - is just a ladder climb away! The concept of an athiest or agnostic angel is damned amusing though...might use that some day... > and even if he does exist, there is no real reason for them > to serve him. What do they objectively gain? Remember, it's part of Heaven's mindset that Good must prevail over Evil. Up there, it's taken as a pure, objective fact. Good is good, Evil is bad. If you think about it, it's not all that wacky an idea to take as fact. > What's to stop them from > concluding thatLucifer was right? What's to stop any angel? Heck, if you wanna fall, you're gonna fall! Elohim fall just as readily as any non-Malakim. > So can someone explain them to me? Hope this helps. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:42:40 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? At 8:33 PM -0400 4/6/99, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >To explain, we'll need some context. Evi (aka Jo Baird) was the Impudite >of the Game in charge of the local demons in-game. If this is a PC, I *admire* that player. That's devious. If this is an NPC, I worship the GM's evil. That's Game. That's definitely Game. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:13:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Why can't Malakim Fall? (or why I hate Elohim) At 8:43 AM -0400 4/7/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 4:29 AM -0700 4/7/99, Hydrax 59 wrote: [...] >>need evidence. And that means that they would find it very difficult >>to serve heaven, because there is no real, concrete proof that god >>exists, and even if he does exist, there is no real reason for them >>to serve him. What do they objectively gain? Well, if you take the possibly fuzzywuzzy notion that the Symphony they are bound to is linked to God (or even somehow one and the same)... Then to act in the best interests of the Symphony *is* to follow God's plan. And then there's what happens if one decides otherwise... Now, this is all *NON-CANON*. This isn't *GOING* to be canon. (I should know; we already told SJ about it as a weird side excursion and he said interesting-but-not-canon.) If you're going to discuss this overmuch, please keep the NON-CANON tags so that I don't have to get into *another* gripe at people who somehow think I'm revealing future secrets of the universe. I meant to reveal future secrets of the universe on April 1, but I couldn't find the script that said that Laurence was going to Fall when it was realized that Uriel was a Fallen-Sideways ex-Seraph all along, who had been 'Balseraphing' the universe to the extent that he created more of his own kind, and this was discovered when Novalis redeemed a Malakite and it turned into a Seraph. But I couldn't find the exact quotes on April 1, so I didn't. In a potential future, which may not even come to pass in our personal campaign, it is revealed unto the Archangel of Lightning that there is a *VERY* strong probability that there is an Avatar of Free Will, that shall Choose between Fate and Destiny (who each have their own avatars -- Kronos and Yves). And it is revealed unto him that this "third Avatar" is... Lilith. Urk. (Well, with a very high percentage of probability.) And so he sets himself to intrigue her and psychoanalyze her and manipulate her until she leaves Hell. Because it is for the good of the Symphony that the Avatar of Free Will not be under the influence of Hell. And eventually, he manages this (more to save her own skin than out of selflessness of any sort -- she discovered she could Word-bind all by her lonesome, IN _OUR_ POTENTIAL FUTURE CAMPAIGN). And because she'd surely die if she were all alone and gang-able-up- on... Jean goes with her, and convinces Eli to do the same. They uproot their Cathedrals and shift them to a middle-ground they found/created [*], taking along the Servitors they can trust not to trash all the Free Lilim who are going to be there when they uproot the Guildhall. [*] Lilith created a Tether from the Marches. She sent a message. The gist of it was, "I do offer back to thee everything that thou gave me, that was not mine by right. And I take my Freedom in return." Some of this gets way silly (we call it the "Superior Soap Opera") but the point is that we decided that Jean would have reason to believe that the "point" of the Symphony wasn't necessarily Armageddon. The point might be that humanity must choose, and that the best thing for the Symphony is that it _does not end_. If Fate or Destiny are eliminated totally... then that indicates an endpoint. So, though he misses Heaven -- it's his *home*, and he has no tattoos -- he stays in this middle-realm, and is the force of reason and responsibility. Because he thinks it's best for the Symphony that he do so. But it does worry him, sometimes, that he might be *wrong*. He worries that some of his emotional reactions (why, yes, he loves her for her mind...) might have biased him, and that if this were revealed, he might be incapable of accepting it as a Power. He's thrown his eggs all in one basket -- because he believed it needed to be done, and that half-measures *could* not serve the Symphony. It's not joining Lucifer -- but it is leaving Heaven. *cough* Anyway, given the appropriate external stimuli, it would be theoretically possible for an Elohite to work against Heaven (or some of Heaven, or much of it...) if there seemed to be objective reasons to do this thing. But the GM would have to set it up such that there really *WERE* objective reasons. And it's kind of doubtful that many Servitor-Elohim would do this -- they'd be more inclined to ask their Archangel for guidance (for that wider perspective) and abide by that. It would take an Elohite who truly believed it had enough perspective to make such a scary choice. But if it *did* determine that was the Right Thing For The Symphony, then the Elohite would *have* to make that choice, because to fail to act from fear or repugnance... would be dissonant. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:42:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Attunements for Everyone or I found a loophole At 9:39 PM -0500 4/6/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: >I was thinking about humans in In Nomine the other day when I realized >that while only soldiers can use songs and spend essence consciously, >there is no such rule regarding attunements. There is probably something in the CPG... Ah, here it is. - --------- p. 23 (barring layout changes I don't know about): @C-HEAD: ATTUNEMENTS Attunements can only be granted by Superiors. Humans can be granted Servitor Attunements and distinctions, but only if they possess 6 Forces -- otherwise an attunement won't "stick." It's theoretically possible for a 6-Force human who is not Symphonically aware to be granted an attunement (in which case he wouldn't be able to use any abilities that required spending Essence), but if a Superior gave such a human an attunement, he'd surely grant him Symphonic awareness in the process. Servitor Attunements cost humans 10 points each, while distinctions have no point value but must be earned during play. Humans can't receive attunements or distinctions that depend on possessing other celestial abilities. @D-HEAD: CHOIR & BAND ATTUNEMENTS Humans don't have a resonance, so they cannot receive Choir or Band attunements. The only exception is if a human is given a Force that comes _from_ a celestial . . . this gives the human just enough celestial nature to allow him the Choir or Band Attunement of the angel or demon who "donated" that Force. - -------- All typos mine. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1192 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.