From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Apr 9 10:59:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12828 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:59:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA21546 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:54:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:54:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199904091554.KAA21546@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1195 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, April 9 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1195 In this digest: IN> Abbreviations IN> CDaU (Re: Humans and attunements) Re: IN> Big Block o' Concrete Angel Re: IN> Metatron RE: IN> Metatron Re: IN> CDaU (Re: Humans and attunements) Re: IN> CDaU (Re: Humans and attunements) IN> Servitors of War and Demon Princes IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> IN list acronyms Re: IN> IN list acronyms Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Abbreviations Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Abbreviations Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Abbreviations IN> Transformers Fluff (was re: Metatron) Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Transformers Fluff (was re: Metatron) Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Use of humans Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Abbreviations Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron IN> Patron Saints Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Patron Saints Re: IN> Patron Saints IN> Worded Humans/Saints ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:24:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Abbreviations At 4:44 PM -0400 4/8/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: >>>-David (damn, I think the CPG has already gone to print) > >Could someone give a rundown of common abbreviations used on this list? >I'm recognizing about half of them, but CPG and CDaU continue to elude me. (Wish I could find my old abbreviations listing. Next time I run across it, I'll send it to the INC, maybe...) IN = In Nomine CPG = Corporeal Player's Guide APG = Angelic Player's Guide IPG = Infernal Player's Guide FotM = Fall of the Malakim H&H = Heaven & Hell FT = Final Trumpet NM = Night Music LR = Liber Reliquarum (Also "Relics") (Book of Relics) LS = Liber Servitorum (Also LiberS, or Liber S) (Book of Servitors) LCast = Liber Castellorum (Also "Tetherbook") (Book of Tethers) LCant = Liber Canticorum (Also "Songbook") (Book of Songs) AA = Archangel DP = Demon Prince INC = In Nomine Collection (unofficial material, hosted by sjgames) www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles GURPS IN = GURPS In Nomine (I never use GIN!) LE = Line Editor CDaU = Canon Doubt and Uncertainty (Things that Will Never Be Answered) IIRC = If I Recall Correctly SJ = Steve Jackson SJG = Steve Jackson Games (the prefered usage is SJ Games) WotC = Wizards of the Coast WW = White Wolf GURPS = GURPS (Generic Universal Role-Playing System) TSR = TSR (Seriously. Legally. Used to be Tactical Studies Rules or something.) Also seen may be things like "SoJ" -- this is usually Seraph/Soldier of Judgment/Janus/Jean/Jordi. Etc. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:25:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> CDaU (Re: Humans and attunements) At 5:04 PM -0400 4/8/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >CDaU - Canon Doubt and Uncertainty. Issues that will never recieve a >concrete answer in official game material (such as whether or not Janus is >Valefor, who Jesus is, whether or not free will exists, and so on). As a note, Janus/Valefor is *not* necessarily under CDaU. Jesus is. Mind, I sometimes think there should be some kind of marker for CDaU material in the text, but I currently can't think of a way to do it such that it's not kind of messy-looking. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:26:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Big Block o' Concrete Angel At 5:04 PM -0400 4/8/99, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > As to casually wiping out a few Malakim... ANY DP can do >that, though it may cost them a lot of Essence. Some can do it >much more easily (Baal, Saminga and Vapula spring to mind), I'm sure. Though this may be simply vessel-killing them, not soul-killing them. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:28:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Metatron At 5:44 PM -0400 4/8/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >This is a slightly embarrassing question, considering how well I like to >think I know the IN universe, but what was Metatron the Archangel of? APG, p. 22: Famous Seraphim: "...Metatron, the first Archangel that Lucifer destroyed..." No other data that I can remember. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:39:55 -0700 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Metatron There isn't any other data. http://www.incyclopedia.org/byname.html#277. Pre-Canon, the Metatron was the name of the entity that Hell was carved out of, but that was a very, very different take on Hell, and couldn't really fit into today's canon. steve - -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth McCoy [mailto:emccoy@nh.ultranet.com] Sent: Thursday, April 08, 1999 3:28 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Metatron At 5:44 PM -0400 4/8/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >This is a slightly embarrassing question, considering how well I like to >think I know the IN universe, but what was Metatron the Archangel of? APG, p. 22: Famous Seraphim: "...Metatron, the first Archangel that Lucifer destroyed..." No other data that I can remember. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:33:44 -0400 (EDT) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> CDaU (Re: Humans and attunements) At 6:25 PM 4/8/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >Mind, I sometimes think there should be some kind of marker for CDaU >material in the text, but I currently can't think of a way to do it >such that it's not kind of messy-looking. Since most IN books are black text on white background, couldn't CDaU text be done in a greyscale? I'm inspired by the idea that, in some Bibles and copies of the Torah, the words of God or Jesus are printed in red ink. - - J - --- jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life) Amalgam of the Day: Wesley Dodds and werther@hilander.com (play) Tom Servo in SANDMAN MYSTERY THEATRE jayafter12am@hotmail.com (late-night) 3000. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:36:30 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> CDaU (Re: Humans and attunements) On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > As a note, Janus/Valefor is *not* necessarily under CDaU. > Jesus is. Oh? It is? Hmmm... my mistake, then. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:42:40 PDT From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Servitors of War and Demon Princes In my first IN game, the GM said to those of us who were playing Servitors of War (two Malakim and a Cherub): "Michael has given standing orders to his Servitors that if they encounter a Demon Prince they are to run away unless they feel they can accomplish something useful in the short time before the Demon Prince kills them." (I've always assumed that the last part was mostly for the Cherub in case he had to sacrifice himself to give someone he was attuned to time to escape.) Janet Anderson _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:47:57 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Humans and attunements >>>(I'd been considering it more of an advantage, like Toughness... Drat, it's not listed that way. Ah, well, more errata. Funfunfun. Gods, but I hate trying to read things while sick.)<<< No, I don't think Sorcery should be an advantage. Advantages are things that are usually inborn or otherwise develop naturally within the Symphony. Sorcery is literally an attunement (it opens a human's mind and attunes him to certain parts of the Symphony), and it's something that celestials can bestow. It's just a special attunement because of the way sorcery is an exclusively human power. >>>Should I make that "Only Superiors can grant Servitor and Band/Choir Attunements to humans" or "Only Word-bound celestials can grant Servitor Attunements to humans"?<<< It should be "Only Word-bound celestials can grant attunements." To humans or anyone else. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:50:24 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements >Sorry, Az. :) No problem -- thanks! Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:52:37 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> IN list acronyms >Besides the usual ones for net messages, we have the following: Thanks! >GIN = GURPS In Nomine (which Elizabeth and I are writing, sometimes used >by us) Of course, after I get standard In Nomine.... Ah, I'll probably buy it anyway. Do a good job. :) Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:52:49 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> IN list acronyms >Besides the usual ones for net messages, we have the following: Thanks! >GIN = GURPS In Nomine (which Elizabeth and I are writing, sometimes used >by us) Of course, after I get standard In Nomine.... Ah, I'll probably buy it anyway. Do a good job. :) Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:53:45 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Metatron >This is a slightly embarrassing question, considering how well I like to >think I know the IN universe, but what was Metatron the Archangel of? I'd >heard that he was the Voice of God, and I even heard him once described as >the Archangel of Humanity, (which I don't like since wasn't he around WAY >before humans existed?) Also how did he die? I might personally decide that >he's still around, hidden, like Magog, and write up some stats for him, if I >deem him Cool enough. I don't know about Canon, but Metatron is Azrael's Hebrew name. Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:55:46 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Abbreviations >(Wish I could find my old abbreviations listing. Next time I run >across it, I'll send it to the INC, maybe...) Thanks a whole bunch! >CPG = Corporeal Player's Guide When's this slated to come out? It sounds fascinating. >TSR = TSR (Seriously. Legally. Used to be Tactical Studies Rules or >something.) Tactical _Systems_ Rules, I think. Not sure, though. Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:57:13 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Metatron >At 5:44 PM -0400 4/8/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >>This is a slightly embarrassing question, considering how well I like to >>think I know the IN universe, but what was Metatron the Archangel of? > >APG, p. 22: Famous Seraphim: > >"...Metatron, the first Archangel that Lucifer destroyed..." > >No other data that I can remember. Is anyone else forcibly reminded of the Transformers when you hear that name? Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 21:38:24 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements At 6:11 PM -0400 4/7/99, Adam Canning wrote: >Marches p54 > >...an appropriate Initiation. It may be self initiation - for instance read >from a sorcerous book - or a full blown dark ritual with 13 cowled, >blackrobed sorcerers chanting your name in assyrian. >This initiation servers as the process the sorcerer acquires the necessary >attunement (see p.57) for sorcery to work for him. > I'd always viewed Sorcerous self- or cabal-initiation as attracting the attention of Hatiphas, or another entity capable of granting the Attunement, whether the Sorcerors know it or not. The entity then decides whether or not to bestow the attunement on the initiate, and often takes note of the who, when, where, how, and, if possible, why of the initiation. It's a bit closer to the standard "Humans can't grant attunements" line, at the expense of "Hey, why can't anybody else grant attunements at long distance" and "If you can grant them at long distance, why can't you take them away at long distance?" - -- ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Melvil, Djinn Knight of Fate, the Demon of Dewey Decimal System. | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 23:08:24 -0400 From: Casey Hartman Subject: Re: IN> Metatron James M. Zoshak wrote: > > >At 5:44 PM -0400 4/8/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > >>This is a slightly embarrassing question, considering how well I like to > >>think I know the IN universe, but what was Metatron the Archangel of? > > > >APG, p. 22: Famous Seraphim: > > > >"...Metatron, the first Archangel that Lucifer destroyed..." > > > >No other data that I can remember. > > Is anyone else forcibly reminded of the Transformers when you hear that name? > > Azrael, Malakite of Death. Oh, whew, it's not just me. Casey Hartman The End is Nigh, play on ArmageddonMUSH: eris.silvren.com:6996 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 00:47:06 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Metatron In a message dated 4/8/99 9:59:04 PM Central Daylight Time, jzoshak@haverford.edu writes: << Is anyone else forcibly reminded of the Transformers when you hear that name? >> Yep!!! :) That's why I think it's so cool! If you were a Servitor of Metatron, wouldn't you just be sooo embarrassed when you tried to tell your Soldiers what your boss's name is? Brian A Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 21:45:55 -0700 From: "Kelly St.Clair" Subject: Re: IN> Metatron >> >"...Metatron, the first Archangel that Lucifer destroyed..." >> Is anyone else forcibly reminded of the Transformers when you hear that >> name? >Oh, whew, it's not just me. "Ofanim, transform and roll out!" :) Then there's the version, imagined by Ben "Gryphon" Hutchins and inspired by the anime series OH MY GODDESS, where Metatron is the computer system that the Universe runs on... - -------------- Kelly St.Clair kellys@efn.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 00:45:25 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Abbreviations In a message dated 4/8/99 9:57:05 PM Central Daylight Time, jzoshak@haverford.edu writes: << >TSR = TSR (Seriously. Legally. Used to be Tactical Studies Rules or >something.) Tactical _Systems_ Rules, I think. Not sure, though. >> I'm quite sure it's Tactical Studies Rules. (Not the greatest name for a role playing company, but IMHO it suits the AD&D company just fine) :) Brian A Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 02:00:12 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Metatron >Yep!!! :) >That's why I think it's so cool! If you were a Servitor of Metatron, wouldn't >you just be sooo embarrassed when you tried to tell your Soldiers what your >boss's name is? No way! "I serve Metatron, Archangel of Mecha! Prepare to meet laser-y dooooom, demon scum!" ^_^ Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 02:03:42 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Metatron >Then there's the version, imagined by Ben "Gryphon" Hutchins and inspired >by the anime series OH MY GODDESS, where Metatron is the computer system >that the Universe runs on... One of the reasons I like the idea that Hell is carved out of Metatron is the definite Omnicron (?) similarity from Transformers -- if anyone remembers, he was the evil cybernetic head floating through space that was big enough for the Transformers to walk around inside...? I think he held the secret of giving robots life or something like that.... Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 02:04:32 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Abbreviations >I'm quite sure it's Tactical Studies Rules. (Not the greatest name for a role >playing company, but IMHO it suits the AD&D company just fine) Be nice -- they did start out with war games and combat sims. :) Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 01:46:02 -0500 From: EDG Subject: IN> Transformers Fluff (was re: Metatron) "James M. Zoshak" wrote: > One of the reasons I like the idea that Hell is carved out of Metatron is > the definite Omnicron (?) similarity from Transformers -- if anyone > remembers, he was the evil cybernetic head floating through space that was > big enough for the Transformers to walk around inside...? I think he held > the secret of giving robots life or something like that.... You're referring to Unicron, if I remember correctly. However, this is getting _way_ off-topic... I move to stop before our beloved Archangel Beth goes DP on us... - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Saints have been tempted by the devil." "You're not a saint." "Exactly. That's why I fell." - Milly and Wormold, "Our Man In Havana" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 04:12:26 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Metatron At 5:44 PM -0400 4/8/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >This is a slightly embarrassing question, considering how well I like to >think I know the IN universe, but what was Metatron the Archangel of? I'd >heard that he was the Voice of God, and I even heard him once described as >the Archangel of Humanity, (which I don't like since wasn't he around WAY >before humans existed?) Also how did he die? I might personally decide that >he's still around, hidden, like Magog, and write up some stats for him, if I >deem him Cool enough. Metatron, my personal favorite -- the mighty Archangel who sounds like he *should* be able to transform into a giant robotic dinosaur or a really big gun. Metatron's official IN status isn't known. In Enochian history, however, he's described as the right hand and voice of God, the Little Yaweah, and the archangel of Humanity. (Of course, he's not the first one killed in the Fall at Enoch, either ). In IN terms, I would put Metatron as the Archangel of the Presence. One could look at him as the Holy Ghost, or the voice of God. He would be an incarnation of God directly. For instance, when Lucifer went off after the Eden experiment and spoke to God, he might have been *actually* talking to Metatron and God through him. One could even say that the reason God was among the Archangels and easy to talk to before the fall and not after the fall is because Lucifer specifically targeted Metatron first. However, humanity was around before the fall, so Metatron could be that Archangel too. If so, his word's done pretty well after his death. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 04:16:42 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Transformers Fluff (was re: Metatron) >You're referring to Unicron, if I remember correctly. That was it. >However, this is getting _way_ off-topic... I move to stop before our >beloved Archangel Beth goes DP on us... What's off-topic about Transformers? :) [hmm, I was kidding when I wrote that, but Transformers and In Nomine do have VERY similar concepts. We can stop talking about it now, though.] Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 04:21:11 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Metatron At 10:53 PM -0400 4/8/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: > >This is a slightly embarrassing question, considering how well I like to > >think I know the IN universe, but what was Metatron the Archangel of? I'd > >heard that he was the Voice of God, and I even heard him once described as > >the Archangel of Humanity, (which I don't like since wasn't he around WAY > >before humans existed?) Also how did he die? I might personally decide that > >he's still around, hidden, like Magog, and write up some stats for him, if I > >deem him Cool enough. > >I don't know about Canon, but Metatron is Azrael's Hebrew name. > Metatron has over seventy-eight "known" names, Azrael being but one of them. The entire list gets impressive. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 04:24:17 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Metatron At 2:00 AM -0400 4/9/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: > >Yep!!! :) > >That's why I think it's so cool! If you were a Servitor of >Metatron, wouldn't > >you just be sooo embarrassed when you tried to tell your Soldiers what your > >boss's name is? > >No way! "I serve Metatron, Archangel of Mecha! Prepare to meet laser-y >dooooom, demon scum!" Metatron's Malakim are the vanguard of his fight. They have the ability to transform into laser packing jets, and can further transform in groups of five into giant robots with unlimited missiles and death rays. This attunement also gives the Malakim the ability to have heavy metal theme music playing in the background. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:12:42 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Use of humans On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 02:34:09PM -0400, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > IMC, damned souls continued to generate Essence, That was the assumption I made. (This is also why > demons of the Game regenerated two Essence each day; the Game was > in charge of distribution of souls to the Princes, and took an > additional cut as management fees.) > IMHC, this is the story the Game use as their cover for the fact that most of their Essence is got from the millions of 'Renegade' demons they have locked up in work camps in restricted areas of Hades. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I shall stomp upon all who oppose me. The stomping shall be swift. The stomping shall be painful. And I shall show no mercy In all of my stomping. Amen." - Jeff Tidball philosophises. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 08:54:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Metatron James M. Zoshak wrote: > Is anyone else forcibly reminded of the Transformers when you > hear that name? Apparently Terry Pratchett or Neil Gaiman was. In their book "Good Omens" (listed in the IN bibliography), a group of children meet Metatron face to face. When told who it is, one remarks, "I had a metatron. It folded up into a jet airplane, but the head fell off." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 08:59:54 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Metatron On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: [snip stuff about the Metatron] > I don't know about Canon, but Metatron is Azrael's Hebrew name. Depends on the source, actually. The Metatron is also identified quite strongly with the prophet Enoch. Which reminds me... In my campaign, Metatron is dead at the hands of Lucifer. However, he has been replaced by Enoch, who has The Metatron as a title. I've never been quite sure what Word he possesses, but it's something along the lines of The Voice of God. He's Archangel-status, but is a Saint. (And yes I know full well that Canonically, humans can't have Words. I simply chose to ignore it.) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:33:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Metatron "Metatron" is Greek, from "meta," for "after" or "next to," and "tronos," for "throne." "By the Throne (of God)." This made me think of "the power behind the throne" and folk like Cardinal Richelieu, the "Grey Eminence." Not that I picture Metatron as manipulating God, but the idea of a grand vizier in heaven is about as uncomfortable as the idea of a grand inquisitor in heaven, like Dominic. I might make Metatron the celestial spin-doctor, not only the official "Voice of God" ("This is WMET, the Voice of God, broadcasting to the *entire* Celestial Plane, Heaven *and* Hell, around the clock, for all eternity...") but also in charge of "mysterious ways," as in "the Lord works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform." In short, if Gabriel is nuts, Yves is enigmatic, and Dominic is fanatical, Metatron was, or is, terrifyingly devious ... but all in a good cause, mind you. "Be cunning as serpents but innocent as doves," as Paul said. If he's so devious, the reports of his death might have been greatly exaggerated. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:36:33 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Metatron At 8:59 AM -0400 4/9/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: > >[snip stuff about the Metatron] > > I don't know about Canon, but Metatron is Azrael's Hebrew name. > >Depends on the source, actually. The Metatron is also identified quite >strongly with the prophet Enoch. Which reminds me... > >In my campaign, Metatron is dead at the hands of Lucifer. However, he has >been replaced by Enoch, who has The Metatron as a title. I've never been >quite sure what Word he possesses, but it's something along the lines of >The Voice of God. He's Archangel-status, but is a Saint. > >(And yes I know full well that Canonically, humans can't have Words. I >simply chose to ignore it.) Canonically that's true, but it's very appropriate for Enoch according to his Books. I handled that slightly differently, myself. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:41:07 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Metatron >On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: > >[snip stuff about the Metatron] >> I don't know about Canon, but Metatron is Azrael's Hebrew name. > >Depends on the source, actually. The Metatron is also identified quite >strongly with the prophet Enoch. Which reminds me... Well, my source is a currently living Jewish friend of mine, who told me Metatron is the Judaic Angel of Death. I figured he'd know. Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 10:53:24 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Metatron James M. "Azrael, Malakite of Death" Zoshak wrote: > Well, my source is a currently living Jewish friend of mine, who > told me Metatron is the Judaic Angel of Death. I > figured he'd know. According to "A Dictionary of Angels," by Gustav Davidson, Metatron has been assigned to just about every imaginable task in Heaven, so Angel of Death is almost certainly one of them. As are Angel of Prayer, Angel of the Countenance, and Recording Angel. Uriel and, as you obviously know, Azrael are also Angels of Death. There are lots. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:59:30 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Abbreviations At 22:55 -0400 4/8/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: >>CPG = Corporeal Player's Guide > >When's this slated to come out? It sounds fascinating. It's at the printers, so probably within the next month or so. The SJGames website shows the release date as May. >>TSR = TSR (Seriously. Legally. Used to be Tactical Studies Rules or >>something.) > >Tactical _Systems_ Rules, I think. Not sure, though. No, it was Tactical Studies Rules, I think -- I'd have to check the old white-box D&D set to be sure.... But they officially changed their name to just "TSR" quite a while back. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:02:52 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Metatron At 4:12 -0400 4/9/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >In IN terms, I would put Metatron as the Archangel of the Presence. >One could look at him as the Holy Ghost, or the voice of God. He >would be an incarnation of God directly. For instance, when Lucifer >went off after the Eden experiment and spoke to God, he might have >been *actually* talking to Metatron and God through him. > >One could even say that the reason God was among the Archangels and >easy to talk to before the fall and not after the fall is because >Lucifer specifically targeted Metatron first. Hmmm... no one really knows where Kronos came from, and he *is* an avatar like Yves.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:01:37 -0500 From: Seth Buntain Subject: Re: IN> Metatron >On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: >In my campaign, Metatron is dead at the hands of Lucifer. However, he has >been replaced by Enoch, who has The Metatron as a title. I've never been >quite sure what Word he possesses, but it's something along the lines of >The Voice of God. He's Archangel-status, but is a Saint. > >(And yes I know full well that Canonically, humans can't have Words. I >simply chose to ignore it.) This is a curious bit of discussion that I was going to bring up, but might as well start here. While cannonically its true that humans cant have words, what about saints? They are a bit above humans in terms of being able to go celestial, having vessels instead of bodies, can use all types of songs and attunements... so why not words? i know someone in the past mentioned "Patron Saints", saints with words, which, for me, make a heck of a lot of sense. I have even been working on write ups for two patron saints, but Im too embarrased to post them yet :P >Richard Gant - -- Seth Buntain Northwestern University enthar@nwu.edu "Magic is always the best solution, especially reliable magic." - -from the program 'fortune'. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:16:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Patron Saints Seth Buntain wrote: "This is a curious bit of discussion that I was going to bring up, but might as well start here. While cannonically its true that humans cant have words, what about saints? They are a bit above humans in terms of being able to go celestial, having vessels instead of bodies, can use all types of songs and attunements... so why not words? i know someone in the past mentioned "Patron Saints", saints with words, which, for me, make a heck of a lot of sense." I have, in the past, proposed a "College of Saints" to be a sort of human counterpart to the Seraphim Council, and proposed that really major saints could have angel servitors. I'd prefer to have saintly patronage be a matter of the saint's personal interest, rather than a Word. Words suit angels because angels start out as very abstract beings. But saints are still human, and, in the case of real saints on the Church calendar, their patronage can be just as disparate as any living human's. For instance, Saint Nicholas is a patron saint of children (which, together with his feast day being near Christmas, gives us the nucleus for the Santa Claus mythos), sailors, pawnbrokers, and, I think, bakers. These areas of interest just reflect several disparate adventures Nicholas had during his earthly life. There are advantages to being un-Worded. If major saints can have their own servitors, then those servitors would have no word-specific dissonance conditions. Of course, there are no Word-specific powers, either, but one could compensate for that by, say, letting major saints be freer at handing out Rites, Songs, and artifacts. Also, being Wordless in Heaven just makes for an interesting change of dynamic. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:15:30 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Metatron At 10:41 AM -0400 4/9/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: > >On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: > > > >[snip stuff about the Metatron] > >> I don't know about Canon, but Metatron is Azrael's Hebrew name. > > > >Depends on the source, actually. The Metatron is also identified quite > >strongly with the prophet Enoch. Which reminds me... > >Well, my source is a currently living Jewish friend of mine, who told me >Metatron is the Judaic Angel of Death. I figured he'd know. > It's very possible. Metatron does... well, almost everything, depending on where you look. His "Dictionary of Angels" entry is considerably longer than Michael's. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:34:48 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Metatron >Uriel and, as you obviously know, Azrael are also Angels of Death. >There are lots. Raphael, too. Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:31:42 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: IN> Patron Saints Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > For instance, Saint Nicholas is a patron saint of children (which, > together with his feast day being near Christmas, gives us the > nucleus for the Santa Claus mythos), sailors, pawnbrokers, and, > I think, bakers. These areas of interest just reflect several > disparate adventures Nicholas had during his earthly life. You forgot prostitutes. :) (This is a popular, though possibly non-factual attribution). - -- talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic & Dilettante ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 Homepage - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:50:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Patron Saints Tal Meta wrote: > Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > For instance, Saint Nicholas is a patron saint of children (which, > > together with his feast day being near Christmas, gives us the > > nucleus for the Santa Claus mythos), sailors, pawnbrokers, and, > > I think, bakers. These areas of interest just reflect several > > disparate adventures Nicholas had during his earthly life. > > You forgot prostitutes. :) (This is a popular, though possibly > non-factual attribution). No, that's probably real. One of Nicholas's adventures was when he heard of three young girls who, because of their family's poverty, were in danger of being sold into prostitution. Nicholas secretly tossed three bags of gold through their window one night, to provide doweries, so they could marry descently. This both associates Nicholas with gift-giving and explains the three gold balls that are the symbol of pawnbrokers. A detail of the legend has it that the bags of gold landed in the girls' socks, which they had hung up for the night on their bedposts. Hence Christmas stockings. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:54:12 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Worded Humans/Saints On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Seth Buntain wrote: > >(And yes I know full well that Canonically, humans can't have Words. I > >simply chose to ignore it.) > > This is a curious bit of discussion that I was going to bring up, but might > as well start here. While cannonically its true that humans cant have > words, what about saints? They are a bit above humans in terms of being > able to go celestial, having vessels instead of bodies, can use all types > of songs and attunements... so why not words? i know someone in the past > mentioned "Patron Saints", saints with words, which, for me, make a heck of > a lot of sense. I believe that Canonically, Saints cannot have Words. If I am correct (and I would like to stress "if", since I don't remember for certain), this makes very little sense. Saints are essentially humans that have been made into high-powered Relievers/low-powered Angels (at first, anyway). They may recieve Choir Attunements (if said attunements are not resonance-specific), Distinctions, Servitor Attunements, Rites, Vessels, and everything else that Angels may recieve. So why not Words? My theory is that they *can* recieve Words, but they often do not. For a few reasons. Primarly, they do not recieve Words because the Seraphim Council is more likely to grant Works to Angels because they *understand* Angels. Humans, even Saints, are alien to the Council. Secondarily, the human nature of Saints makes them poor candidates for most Words. Words are typically extremely abstract concepts, and humans (even Saints) do not handle them well. A true mortal existance in the Corporeal realm prepares them for concrete concepts, and gives them a time-based perspective. Angels, on the other hand, exist in Eternity and intuitively understand the abstract (Eternity itself is abstract). Therefore, a Worded Saint would typically require a very concrete Word. Most of these have already been given out, but they could make very competant Word-bound Seneschals. (This is not to say that Saints *cannot* handle abastract Words in this scenario, just that they typically do not.) Comments? I'm also hashing out canon for my campaign here, so I want to make certain it makes sense. Richard Gant PS: Bring on those Patron Saints you mentioned. I'd like to see them - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1195 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.