From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Apr 10 11:04:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25355 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:04:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA32573 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:02:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:02:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199904101602.LAA32573@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1196 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, April 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1196 In this digest: IN> Angel of Death Re: IN> Angel of Death Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Angel of Death Re: IN> Worded Humans/Saints Re: IN> Metatron IN> CPG (Re: Abbreviations) Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Metatron IN> ShoreCon '99 Re: IN> ShoreCon '99 IN> Principalities Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Principalities Re: IN> ShoreCon '99 Re: IN> Principalities IN> Health Related Reports Re: IN> Big Block o' Concrete Angel Re: IN> Angel of Death Re: IN> Big Block o' Concrete Angel IN> Patron Saints Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Big Block o' Concrete Angel Re: IN> Patron Saints Re: IN> Big Block o' Concrete Angel Re: IN> Patron Saints IN> The Four Types of Role Player and In Nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:57:06 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Angel of Death On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: > >Uriel and, as you obviously know, Azrael are also Angels of Death. > >There are lots. > > Raphael, too. And Michael. Thinking about the Angel of Death, I have a theory about why he's never really been mentioned in In Nomine. There isn't one, really. Instead, the Angel of Death is a title assumed by various Archangels when the Angel of Death is needed. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:35:42 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Death At 11:57 AM -0400 4/9/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: > > > >Uriel and, as you obviously know, Azrael are also Angels of Death. > > >There are lots. > > > > Raphael, too. > >And Michael. > >Thinking about the Angel of Death, I have a theory about why he's never >really been mentioned in In Nomine. There isn't one, really. Instead, >the Angel of Death is a title assumed by various Archangels when the Angel >of Death is needed. He has been mentioned, in Night Music. Whatshisname, the Angel of Psycho Teens, hoped to meet him but didn't. So in Canon, there *is* an Archangel of Death. We just don't know who, and Angels with Words related to Death also don't know. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 12:44:18 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Metatron "James M. Zoshak" wrote: > >>Uriel and, as you obviously know, Azrael are also Angels of Death. >>There are lots. > >Raphael, too. Don't forget Michael. (Well, he was actually the psychopomp, the angel who guarded souls on their journey from Earth to Heaven after they died.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:52:05 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Death >Thinking about the Angel of Death, I have a theory about why he's never >really been mentioned in In Nomine. There isn't one, really. Instead, >the Angel of Death is a title assumed by various Archangels when the Angel >of Death is needed. Believe what you will.... Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:03:54 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Worded Humans/Saints At 11:54 -0400 4/9/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >I believe that Canonically, Saints cannot have Words. If I am correct >(and I would like to stress "if", since I don't remember for certain), >this makes very little sense. This is canon, as I understand it. The only canon exception is Lilith. The (non-canon) theory I have for why this is true is that the difference between humans and celestials is a lot like the difference between humans and machines. Humans are generalists -- every individual human is a tangle of Symphonic themes, some stonger than others, but all present. Celestials, on the other hand, are more like specialized machines -- they are much *simpler* beings, in many ways; they embody only specific parts of the Symphony. This makes them "purer" and a lot more efficient, but a lot less flexible. Words, being a connection to a pure concept in the Symphony, don't fit well with humans in this model. Humans are too chaotic and "fuzzy" for a pure linkage to "stick". David may have put something like this in the CPG, though I don't think it's quite the same. This doesn't really explain Lilith, though it's possible the nature of her Word is such that it's one of the few that *could* be given to a human and stick -- to use another analogy, Words are normally "spectral lines" in the Symphony, similar to the "pure tone" nature of celestials. Humans are "continuous spectrum" sources in the Symphony, and so don't match well with Words. But the Word of Freedom may, by its very nature, not be confinable to a few spectral lines. So it could be linked to a human with a similar "spectrum" -- Lilith. Then there's my conspiracy theory for Lilith -- she was *created* with (or specifically for) the Word of Freedom, for some ineffable reason of God's. *He* gets to break His own rules if He wants.... This was the basis for my "Third Avatar" plot a while back. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:18:16 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Metatron Our spies report that on 08:59 AM 4/9/99 -0400, gantr@NKU.EDU said: > >On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: > >[snip stuff about the Metatron] >> I don't know about Canon, but Metatron is Azrael's Hebrew name. > >Depends on the source, actually. The Metatron is also identified quite >strongly with the prophet Enoch. Which reminds me... > >In my campaign, Metatron is dead at the hands of Lucifer. However, he has >been replaced by Enoch, who has The Metatron as a title. I've never been >quite sure what Word he possesses, but it's something along the lines of >The Voice of God. He's Archangel-status, but is a Saint. > >(And yes I know full well that Canonically, humans can't have Words. I >simply chose to ignore it.) > >Richard Gant Well, if Lucifer can hook Lilith up in...whatever way he did, surely God can Ascend whoever He wants to. They sure don't make them like they used to. Humans were around, but not amounting to too much yet at the time of the Garden. God created Adam, Lilith and Eve, although Eve was sort of remanufactured. These people were great. Adam probably invented a huge spoken language if you give him credit. Eve doubtless did several important things too. And Lilith became a Demon Princess! Their children were second generation copies of the Real Thing made by God. They weren't that cool. They interbred with the outside world, too, which theoretically got the Hebrews their origin. Other parts of the world, things progressed... More and more generations pass, more flawed copies. But back in Old Testament days, people lived for hundreds of years. Maybe it's not an exaggeration/different calendar. Maybe they really did. Oh sure, humans these days don't get Words or anything. But they aren't close enough to the Original Model. Maybe it isn't Grigori blood that determines who can have extra Forces. It might be simple genetics.. What if Vapula discovered this and tried to cook up something close to the original model? What if he needed to send some poor demons to try to get a DNA sample off Lilith? Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:52:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> CPG (Re: Abbreviations) At 10:55 PM -0400 4/8/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: >>CPG = Corporeal Player's Guide > >When's this slated to come out? It sounds fascinating. It's in production now. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:56:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Metatron At 4:24 AM -0400 4/9/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 2:00 AM -0400 4/9/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: >>No way! "I serve Metatron, Archangel of Mecha! Prepare to meet laser-y >>dooooom, demon scum!" > >Metatron's Malakim are the vanguard of his fight. They have the >ability to transform into laser packing jets, and can further >transform in groups of five into giant robots with unlimited missiles >and death rays. This attunement also gives the Malakim the ability >to have heavy metal theme music playing in the background. You people are sick, sick puppies, do you know that? (And, okay, I've seen just enough Transformers to have had that niggling at the back of my head too. Yeesh. Must be a Nybbas plot.) [And so long as you can link them, as above, then I won't gripe...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:01:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Metatron At 10:01 AM -0500 4/9/99, Seth Buntain wrote: >>On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, James M. Zoshak wrote: >>(And yes I know full well that Canonically, humans can't have Words. I >>simply chose to ignore it.) (Always fine by me...) >This is a curious bit of discussion that I was going to bring up, but might >as well start here. While cannonically its true that humans cant have >words, what about saints? Canonically, they don't get them either. Humans aren't able to be filed down to the laser-preciseness of focusing on a single Word. They're just too full of metaphysical *stuff*. (Patron Saints are also in the CPG, BTW. They don't have Words, but they are "patrons" of certain things. p. 84, last I saw.) Yes, Lilith is an exception. No, the Seraphim Council isn't sure how Lucifer did it. Yes, that disturbs them. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 13:19:32 +0000 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Metatron > Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Metatron's official IN status isn't known. In Enochian history, > however, he's described as the right hand and voice of God, the > Little Yaweah, and the archangel of Humanity. (Of course, he's not > the first one killed in the Fall at Enoch, either ). > > In IN terms, I would put Metatron as the Archangel of the Presence. > One could look at him as the Holy Ghost, or the voice of God. He > would be an incarnation of God directly. For instance, when Lucifer > went off after the Eden experiment and spoke to God, he might have > been *actually* talking to Metatron and God through him. > > One could even say that the reason God was among the Archangels and > easy to talk to before the fall and not after the fall is because > Lucifer specifically targeted Metatron first. > > However, humanity was around before the fall, so Metatron could be > that Archangel too. If so, his word's done pretty well after his > death. Ideas being fired up here: Caution, these are very rough and not polished yet. Metatron had to go, in order to bust Humanity loose from God's side. It wasn't God's Presence in Heaven that made Metatron the number One target at the time of the Fall; it was God's Presence on Earth, walking in the Garden, answering Mankind's questions, ratting out the demons, and giving the earliest Humans the straight poop on all the lies and deceptions of Lucifer and his demons. Lucifer, AA of Light, while contemplating his Rebellion and Fall, saw all of this quite clearly -- He was the AA of Light for a reason. So who's was the first throat he went for when the cards were laid on the table, just before Michael left a permanent mark on Lucy's backside? Metatron, of course. And here's another tidbit for your mental pleasure: There were no Grigori prior to Metatron's [reported] demise. Just as the Malakim were the result of the Rebellion, so were the Grigori a result of Metatron's reported demise. Not really based on anything that I can quote, just fanciful thinking -- my two cents worth, if you will. Another thought: If Metatron really did die, how loud was the noise of his death, disturbance-wise? How would the echoes manifest themselves? And what would be cumulative with it, since closely associated events, in either space or causative agency [who made the noise], are cumulative with regard to the Disturbance that is heard? Yet another thought: how rude a shock is Hell going to have at Armageddon, if the Upper Heaven opens and not only Uriel but a fully recovered Metatron return to take the field against Lucy & Co.?? 0:-} *g* And _then_ , God plays his Trump card and calls up the entire Choir of Grigori, carefully hidden among Humanity all these years, some even hidden among the damn souls in Hell, all rise up when the paradigm of their Choir, Metatron, returns from his recovery in the Upper Heavens, disrupting the flow of Essence from the Damned and sabotaging Hell's homebase from within, just when Hell needs a stable fallback position the most...... Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "Wolfen one, you are my midday moon and I, your midnight sun...." Heather Alexander, "Wolfen One" on the album, "Midsummer" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 15:00:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Metatron I like the scenario. There could also be an army of all the blessed who have gone up Jacob's Ladder. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 16:25:15 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: IN> ShoreCon '99 Greetings. I'm the RPG coordinator for ShoreCon '99, which will be held on September 9-12 1999 at the Hilton in Cherry Hill, NJ. In that capacity, I'm looking for GMs (and players, too) for RPG events at the convention. The deadline for event submissions is June 1st, and by visiting you can find complete information on hotel accomodations, online GM registration, and even get on the mailing list to have our pre-registration book sent directly to you. If you are interested in GMing an event, the time to sign up is now! This year I'd like to be able to schedule several In Nomine events (at MonCon last month, the single IN game had more preregistrations than any other single event!) That same GM has promised 2-3 games for ShoreCon, but he'd welcome the opportunity to play... This year ShoreCon will will be having several special guests, including Steve Jackson (of Steve Jackson Games), Peter Adkison (Pres/CEO of WotC/TSR), and Jolly Blackburn, creator of KotDT! (Several other guests are as yet unconfirmed... watch our website for updates!) There also exists the possibility of an In Nomine LARP (but this has not yet been confirmed/scheduled). Thanx for your time... - -- talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic & Dilettante ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 Homepage - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 16:46:21 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> ShoreCon '99 At 4:25 PM -0400 4/9/99, Tal Meta wrote: >Greetings. > >I'm the RPG coordinator for ShoreCon '99, which will be held on >September 9-12 1999 at the Hilton in Cherry Hill, NJ. In that capacity, >I'm looking for GMs (and players, too) for RPG events at the convention. Hm.... that might be driving distance for me. Who all else from here might be in the Northeast and of a mind to do this voodoo? - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 17:17:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Principalities I recently acquired a copy of Gustav Davidson's "Dictionary of Angels." Browsing this prompts me to re-visit the idea of Principalities. (I posted an example Principality, Samuel, now ensconced in the In Nomine Collection at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/Settings/Principalities.bound.html ) The most widely-accepted angelology of the Middle Ages was that of Pseudo-Dionysius, which had nine choirs in three triads: Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones Dominations, Virtues, Powers Principalities, Archangels, Angels IN uses eight of these nine, changing "angel" as a choir to "Mercurian," using "archangel" for the Superiors, and using alternate names for some of the others. But "Principalities" just got dropped. These are the guardian angels of peoples and nations. It would be easy enough to re-introduce them. The Principalities are a group of powerful, Worded Cherubim. Each is either a Cherub of Destiny in service to Protection or a Cherub of Protection in service to Destiny. The two kinds are about equal in number. The Word of each Principality is the nation or people it protects. they are something like the senechals of Tethers, on a grand scale. According to Davidson's Dictionary, there are 70 nations or peoples on Earth, for celestial purposes. According to other quaint books I've read, there are 72. More of the diffence anon. In any case, there are over 200 nation-states in the modern world, and far more ethnic groups. But the Principalities divide up the world differently. They don't ignore national, ethnic, and linguistic divisions, but they don't follow them slavishly, either. In fact, they divvy humanity up at their own convenience, to balance the work-load and re-group populations along lines of efficient administration. Thus, in the late 19th century, the British Empire would have been too large for one Principality; now, China is too large. And, as the world population has grown, the Principalities have acquired more servitors to help them. Principalities, even more than most Cherubim, have to juggle lots of conflicting goals. First, they're supposed to guide and protect their people, but in what sense? They have to balance spiritual gains against material gains. No doubt, spiritual gains should come first, but if your people are losing wars, or afflicted with poverty or tyranny, they are subject to all manner of temptations to wrath and despair, and, in the extreem case, their existence is imperiled. On the other hand, there are plenty of temptations to evil offered by prosperity and victory, especially if these involve conquest. Which brings up another juggling act. One nation's gain is often another's loss. Non-zero-sum games are great, but you can't always find them. They are easier to find on the plane of spiritual benefits, but even there, if party A is to learn pity or fortitude, there has to be a party B who is hurting or oppressing. Between these conflicts and fairly frequent re-shuffling of jurisdictions, Principalities do a LOT of business with each other. They are also called on, by Yves, to move their peoples toward certain events. Under Yves's direction, they are Heaven's instrument for controlling political history. They don't have an easy time of it. Besides the general opposition of Hell, they have their fallen counterparts, the Tyrannies, most Djinn, some of them former Principalities. And why is the number sometimes given as 70 and at other times as 72? Because two of the Principalities aren't typical. One is Michael, who, besides being an Archangel, is the Principality of Israel. This certainly includes the Jews; Christians claim it includes them, too, but this can be left in Canonical Uncertainty. The 72nd is the Principality of the Dispossessed. It watches over various classes of refugees, fugitives, homeless, stateless, and alienated peoples. Principalities or their servitors would be encountered when celestial activities intersect great issues of cultural, political, or military importance. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:24:43 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Metatron >I like the scenario. There could also be an army of all the >blessed who have gone up Jacob's Ladder. The einheriar. :) Cool. Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 18:07:14 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Principalities At 5:17 PM -0500 4/9/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >I recently acquired a copy of Gustav Davidson's "Dictionary of Angels." >Browsing this prompts me to re-visit the idea of Principalities. (I >posted an example Principality, Samuel, now ensconced in the In Nomine >Collection at This book is an IN junkie's best friend. > >The Principalities are a group of powerful, Worded Cherubim. Each is >either a Cherub of Destiny in service to Protection or a Cherub of >Protection in service to Destiny. The two kinds are about equal in >number. The Word of each Principality is the nation or people it >protects. they are something like the senechals of Tethers, on a grand >scale. I like this a lot. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 18:14:40 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> ShoreCon '99 >Hm.... that might be driving distance for me. Who all else from here >might be in the Northeast and of a mind to do this voodoo? I'm going to try and make it -- it is right by me. Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:22:26 -0500 (CDT) From: paranial@creighton.edu Subject: Re: IN> Principalities Nice Idea. In the Future some info on who each of the Princpalities are (excluding Big Mike of Course). and The Tyrannies. Bradley Paranial, Mecurian of War Slayer of Snuggles, Demon of Cuteness ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 03:46:37 From: hellofriend45@yahoo.com Subject: IN> Health Related Reports SPECIAL SALE! ALL OF THE ABOVE REPORTS ON DISKETTE FOR $5.95!!! ALL ORDERS MAIL TO: GLOBAL FINANCIAL ENTERPRISES, INC. P.O. BOX 14427 PHILADELPHIA, PA 19115 Growing Old Gracefully Safeguarding Your Food Your Personal Safety The Radon Problem Sensible Diet Tips Conquering The Smoking Habit Hay Fever Allergy And Asthma Fueling Up On Water New Therapy For Heart Attacks Getting A Second Opinion The Dangers Of Household Garbage The Positive Weight Loss Approach Lead Can Be Dangerous Facts About Alzheimer's Disease Social Security Information Walking And Weight Loss Alcohol And Society Today Live A Longer And Healthier Life You Can Have Healthy Skin Coronary Heart Disease Aids And Drug Abuse Ulcers Are No Laughing Matter Exercise Melts Body Fat Where Diets Go Wrong Handy First Aid Tips How To Beat Depression ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:10:46 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Big Block o' Concrete Angel Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 5:04 PM -0400 4/8/99, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > As to casually wiping out a few Malakim... ANY DP can do > >that, though it may cost them a lot of Essence. Some can do it > >much more easily (Baal, Saminga and Vapula spring to mind), I'm sure. > > Though this may be simply vessel-killing them, not soul-killing them. Heh. Soul killing takes a wee bit more effort, yes. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:14:50 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Death gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > Thinking about the Angel of Death, I have a theory about why he's never > really been mentioned in In Nomine. There isn't one, really. Instead, > the Angel of Death is a title assumed by various Archangels when the Angel > of Death is needed. Ooooh, fun idea! Plots begin to swirl in murky depths of imagination... - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 22:13:00 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Big Block o' Concrete Angel John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > > At 5:04 PM -0400 4/8/99, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > > > As to casually wiping out a few Malakim... ANY DP can do > > >that, though it may cost them a lot of Essence. Some can do it > > >much more easily (Baal, Saminga and Vapula spring to mind), I'm sure. > > > > Though this may be simply vessel-killing them, not soul-killing them. > > Heh. Soul killing takes a wee bit more effort, yes. ;) Not to be caning a deceased equine or anything, but this set of answers produces yet *another* problem with _Fall of the Malakim_. Therein, Malphas very casually force-strips poor Mira Klein (witnessed by Neck). The only way I read that set of events is that it *is* very easy for a Superior to soul kill a 9-force celestial. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:39:26 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Patron Saints >>>This is a curious bit of discussion that I was going to bring up, but might as well start here. While cannonically its true that humans cant have words, what about saints? They are a bit above humans in terms of being able to go celestial, having vessels instead of bodies, can use all types of songs and attunements... so why not words? i know someone in the past mentioned "Patron Saints", saints with words, which, for me, make a heck of a lot of sense.<<< I wrote about this a bit in the CPG. Short version: Saints can't have Words. At least not in the actual, celestial sense of being Word-bound. However, some Saints are so respected (even by the angels) for their expertise and devotion to a particular area that they may be *called" "the Saint of such-and-such." It's just a title, though, it doesn't actually give them any additional powers. >>>I believe that Canonically, Saints cannot have Words. If I am correct (and I would like to stress "if", since I don't remember for certain), this makes very little sense.<<< It makes perfect sense, canonically, because being Word-bound is *only* possible for a celestial. >>>Saints are essentially humans that have been made into high-powered Relievers/low-powered Angels (at first, anyway).<<< That's not correct. Humans don't become celestials. Saints are humans who've ascended to the celestial plane and now have a celestial form -- this does not make them celestials. They don't have a resonance, they can't become dissonant or Discordant. >>>They may recieve Choir Attunements (if said attunements are not resonance-specific),<<< Also not correct, except in a rare case described in the CPG. >>>Distinctions, Servitor Attunements, Rites, Vessels, and everything else that Angels may recieve.<<< Mortal humans can also receive Distinctions, Servitor attunements, and Rites. And a Saint's vessel is a little different from a celestial's vessel. >>>So why not Words?<<< Because they're not celestials. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:37:19 PDT From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: Re: IN> Metatron >One of the reasons I like the idea that Hell is carved out of Metatron is >the definite Omnicron (?) similarity from Transformers -- if anyone >remembers, he was the evil cybernetic head floating through space that was >big enough for the Transformers to walk around inside...? I think he held >the secret of giving robots life or something like that.... Okay, just so as everyone gets it straight, The Omicron was the source of all transformer life, and it was used in the creation of new bots of both sides, and the upgrade of all of them several times. Unicron was a planet sized transformer who ate other planets (and transformers) who also upgraded people (Megatron into Galvatron, etc.) He was destroyed for a short while by Rodimus Prime in the transformers movie. He did turn into a giant head, but he also turned into a massive robot, shortly before his destruction. It is so scary that I remember all of this. >Metatron's Malakim are the vanguard of his fight. They have the >ability to transform into laser packing jets, and can further >transform in groups of five into giant robots with unlimited missiles >and death rays. This attunement also gives the Malakim the ability >to have heavy metal theme music playing in the background. That is so Anime. Of course to be truly Anime, massive destruction has to be done to the surrounding area then fixed in time for the next episode, scantily clad females have to be in plentiful supply, and plot has to be very thin on the ground. Oh, and in the distant past, there has to have been some major disaster which destroyed/enslaved most of the population. "What? Noooo! I can't be defeated!" Practically any manga villan just before he/she/it is defeated. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 06:30:52 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Big Block o' Concrete Angel At 10:13 PM -0500 4/9/99, Eeyore wrote: >John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > > > > At 5:04 PM -0400 4/8/99, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > > > > > As to casually wiping out a few Malakim... ANY DP can do > > > >that, though it may cost them a lot of Essence. Some can do it > > > >much more easily (Baal, Saminga and Vapula spring to mind), I'm sure. > > > > > > Though this may be simply vessel-killing them, not soul-killing them. > > > > Heh. Soul killing takes a wee bit more effort, yes. ;) > >Not to be caning a deceased equine or anything, but this set of answers >produces yet *another* problem with _Fall of the Malakim_. Therein, Malphas >very casually force-strips poor Mira Klein (witnessed by Neck). The only >way I read that set of events is that it *is* very easy for a Superior to >soul kill a 9-force celestial. > >J. Michael Neal I think that should be a given, actually. If a Major Demon Prince, who has been so since the Fall, can't casually tear apart a 9 Force Celestial... why on Earth, in Heaven or in Hell would a Prince last five years before Mob Violence tore him to shreds. There's a difference between that and a pack of Malakim. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 06:39:07 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Patron Saints At 11:39 PM -0400 4/9/99, David Edelstein wrote: > >I wrote about this a bit in the CPG. Short version: Saints can't have >Words. At least not in the actual, celestial sense of being Word-bound. >However, some Saints are so respected (even by the angels) for their >expertise and devotion to a particular area that they may be *called" "the >Saint of such-and-such." It's just a title, though, it doesn't actually >give them any additional powers. > [...] >It makes perfect sense, canonically, because being Word-bound is *only* >possible for a celestial. > Sigh. I don't mean to beat dead horses either, but every time I see that, I squick. Lilith, in Canon to date, was a human created to be the wife of Adam, who left and was given a Word. Handwaving and "no one knows how Lucifer did it" doesn't change that, unless the intention is to Canonically make her Celestial before she was given the Word. Words are only *given* to Celestials. But clearly they *could* be given to others. We have an example. Exceptions don't prove the rule, I'm afraid. They prove the loophole. Now, if Lucifer -- for reasons of his own -- never wants to give a Word to a Non-Celestial again, and the Seraphim Council clearly never wants to, great. But to simply state, categorically, that it is impossible is to state that the description of a Superior as listed in IN, Fall of the Malakim and the Infernal Player's Guide aren't Canon. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 06:06:46 -0700 From: "Sean" Subject: Re: IN> Big Block o' Concrete Angel >At 10:13 PM -0500 4/9/99, Eeyore wrote: >>John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> >> > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> > > >> > > At 5:04 PM -0400 4/8/99, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> > > >> > > > As to casually wiping out a few Malakim... ANY DP can do >> > > >that, though it may cost them a lot of Essence. Some can do it >> > > >much more easily (Baal, Saminga and Vapula spring to mind), I'm sure. >> > > >> > > Though this may be simply vessel-killing them, not soul-killing them. >> > >> > Heh. Soul killing takes a wee bit more effort, yes. ;) >> >>Not to be caning a deceased equine or anything, but this set of answers >>produces yet *another* problem with _Fall of the Malakim_. Therein, Malphas >>very casually force-strips poor Mira Klein (witnessed by Neck). The only >>way I read that set of events is that it *is* very easy for a Superior to >>soul kill a 9-force celestial. >> >>J. Michael Neal > >I think that should be a given, actually. If a Major Demon Prince, >who has been so since the Fall, can't casually tear apart a 9 Force >Celestial... why on Earth, in Heaven or in Hell would a Prince last >five years before Mob Violence tore him to shreds. > >There's a difference between that and a pack of Malakim. > Also bear in mind that LA was resounding from the earlier destruction, so essence spending might not be easily noticed even on a large scale...and Malphas has a LOT of effort tied up in this plot. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 10:08:51 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Patron Saints On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Saints are essentially humans that have been made into high-powered > Relievers/low-powered Angels (at first, anyway).<<< > > That's not correct. Humans don't become celestials. Saints are humans > who've ascended to the celestial plane and now have a celestial form -- > this does not make them celestials. They don't have a resonance, they can't > become dissonant or Discordant. Okay, so there's some *subtle* distinctions... :) > >>>They may recieve Choir Attunements (if said attunements are not > resonance-specific),<<< > > Also not correct, except in a rare case described in the CPG. Ah, yes. I misremembered the rule in Night Music about them recieving 10 points to purchase a Servitor Attunement. I hadn't looked it up until now, and was remembering it as saying *Choir Attunement*. Hence the mistake. > >>>Distinctions, Servitor Attunements, Rites, Vessels, and everything else > that Angels may recieve.<<< > > Mortal humans can also receive Distinctions, Servitor attunements, and > Rites. And a Saint's vessel is a little different from a celestial's > vessel. How is it different? The only thing I can find about it is that they don't have to spend any points for the first vessel. (Not arguing here, I'm just curious.) > >>>So why not Words?<<< > > Because they're not celestials. Well, if you're gonna get all *picky* about it... :) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:02:15 -0500 (CDT) From: paranial@creighton.edu Subject: IN> The Four Types of Role Player and In Nomine I have decicded to one of those Four Types of Role Player Lists for IN. For thoses of who don't know the Four Types are: Real Men(No offence to any Women out there): These Guys love to Fight. There Charecters are not over powered. Just Combat Oreinted. They do have brains, and accept a "No" from the GM. Real Role Players: These are are guys evrey GM loves. They spend the entire Session in-cahecter, effect accents and see the whole exersise as acting with dice. Loonies: More or less in it for laughs, there is little they take seriously, and asprie to be the "Comic Relief", these are the guys that play the "Teddy Bear Malakavians" in Vampire games Munchkins: No explination nessary Lets Begin Shall we: Favorite Choir: Real Men: Play Malakim and Cherubim Real Roleplayers: Play Seraphim, Ofanim, Elohim, Kryiotates and Mercurians Loonies: Play Ofanim and Kryiotates Munchkins: Anything as long as they get to be an Archangel Supirors: Real Men: Micheal, Laurence, David Real Roleplayers: Novalis, Domonic, Gaberiel, Blandine, Jean, Eli Loonies, Eli, Jordi, Jean(Think about they last one espeically the Kyrios) Munckins: They ARE Archangels anyone else want to add to this Bradley Paranial ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1196 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.