From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Apr 13 17:08:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16782 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:08:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA04750 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:04:55 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:04:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199904132204.RAA04750@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1199 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, April 13 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1199 In this digest: Re: IN> ShoreCon '99 Re: IN> Principalities IN> Metatron IN> Soul Killing Re: IN> Principalities Re: IN> Principalities IN> A rather naive question Re: IN> A rather naive question Re: IN> A rather naive question IN> New PBEM Re: IN> A rather naive question RE: IN> A rather naive question IN> Levels and Resources Re: IN> Levels and Resources Re: IN> Levels and Resources Re: IN> Levels and Resources Re: IN> Levels and Resources IN> Survey... Re: IN> Levels and Resources ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:41:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> ShoreCon '99 At 1:59 PM -0400 4/12/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >>So long as you don't call them official IN rules, or try to sell them as >>IN rules (both of which would be trademark violations), I doubt that there >>would be any problem. >> >so if I were to run an In Nomine LARP at a convention but not for profit or >anything it would be perfectly acceptable by SJG standards. As far as I know, so long as you make it fairly clear that these are *your* LARP rules -- this makes sure that there's no confusion with any potential future rules. > If this is so then I will probably run one at DragonCon '99. You might want to browse around the sjgames.com site -- if you can find some MiBs in the area, you could possibly even get prizes for the game. >Ben Elohite of flowers serving stone soon to be habbalah of factions demon >of LARPs Hee hee hee! Have... _fun_.... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:52:39 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Principalities Earl Wajenberg wrote: >And why is the number sometimes given as 70 and at other times as 72? >Because two of the Principalities aren't typical. One is Michael, who, >besides being an Archangel, is the Principality of Israel. This >certainly includes the Jews; Christians claim it includes them, too, but >this can be left in Canonical Uncertainty. I like this idea. Running with the idea of Tyrannies, it makes sense that one of their number has to be a demon prince, as the Infernal opposite number to Michael. In the book of Daniel, when the angel Gabriel appears to Daniel and reveals the history of the world to him, Gabriel reports that he was detained by a struggle with "the prince of Persia", until Michael arrived to stomp said this mysterious spirit. So who is this being? Persia was for most of its history a Zoroastrian land, and it would therefore make sense to find a demon who exists in both the Jewish and Zoroastrian myth-systems. The logical choice is probably Aeshma, one of the 6 archdemons who stands just below Angra Mainyu, the evil principle. In the book of Tobit, Aeshma was translated into Asmodeus, and his domain shifted somewhat from wrath and fury to generic lusts. Both are credited with similar abilities, however, such as travelling each day to Heaven to spy on the councils of the angels. (I'm not sure how Asmodeus became the demon of wisdom in the Jewish tradition; I guess it's his connection to Solomon -- see below.) Asmodeus also makes sense in In Nomine terms; he is a Djinn, and the Prince most associated with misrule and aribtrary, oppressive authority. We get a bonus tie-in to myth, too. According to legend, Solomon was able to bind Asmodeus and force him to construct the first Temple by using a magic ring engraved with the name of God (the seal of Solomon). Now, it happens that legend names Michael as the angel that gave Solomon his magic ring.... - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:35:19 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Metatron >From: Elizabeth McCoy >At 5:44 PM -0400 4/8/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >>This is a slightly embarrassing question, considering how well I like to >>think I know the IN universe, but what was Metatron the Archangel of? >APG, p. 22: Famous Seraphim: >"...Metatron, the first Archangel that Lucifer destroyed..." >No other data that I can remember. Pyramid #9 p39 "The expanse of hell, carved from the undying body of the Metatron, is..." Adam Angel of Philosophical warfare. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:35:21 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Soul Killing >Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:33:08 -0400 >From: David Edelstein >>>>Not to be caning a deceased equine or anything, but this set of answers >produces yet *another* problem with _Fall of the Malakim_. Therein, >Malphas >very casually force-strips poor Mira Klein (witnessed by Neck). The only >way I read that set of events is that it *is* very easy for a Superior to >soul kill a 9-force celestial.<<< > >If that celestial is your own Servitor, yes. Otherwise, you have to catch >the celestial in celestial form. Even a Superior can't point at a random >celestial in a vessel and expunge him from existence. > >- -David Mira was Blandines servitor at that point. And as far as we can tell she was in corporeal form. The song of creation would do it though. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:15:05 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Principalities Thanks, Neel, for the Asmodeus vs. Michael idea. When interpreting the same passage from Daniel, Thomas Aquinas proposed that the "prince of Persia" was an unfallen Principality, but that even unfallen Principalities can be at odds, in the manner of human lawyers acting as advocates for their clients. So, according to this, Gabriel was not delayed by the equivalent of military action, but by the angelic equivalent of being tied up in litigation. This would indicate how life among the Principalities is not one long sweet song. The prince of Persia as an evil spirit is probably closer to the original intent of that scripture, though, I bet. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:19:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Principalities Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Both [versions of Asmodeus] are credited with similar abilities, > however, such as travelling each day to Heaven to spy on the > councils of the angels. (I'm not sure how Asmodeus became the > demon of wisdom in the Jewish tradition; I guess it's his > connection to Solomon -- see below.) I would have supposed that his wisdom comes from being able to spy on the angels. Jorge Luis Borges, in "The Book of Imaginary Beings," reports that Arabic djinn are said to be able to rise high enough in heaven to eavesdrop on the angels, and thus relay to human sorcerors occasional details of future events. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:07:35 +0100 From: "Helm, Matthew" Subject: IN> A rather naive question Hello, I started playing IN last Monday, so I have some pretty "newbie"ish questions, sorry. The one that is confusing me most is: How much do "non-artifact" (as in plain, ordinary, mundane...) things cost at character creation? Not being completely conversant with the rules, I bought a .44 at character creation for 1 character point. After a bit of reading I realised that this could mean that I was "attuned" to the gun... which was really a bit more than I wanted. On the same line, is there a guide anywhere of how much things should cost? The rule book seems to make vague references to an items "Ordinary cost", so that multipliers can be applied, but I haven't found anywhere that lists those ordinary costs (I will admit that I haven't read _every_ word of the rule book, but I had a good look through). If someone could point me to a page number, supplement or website, I would appreciate it. Finally, on a slightly more subjective tone, which supplements would people recommend? I only have the main book at the moment, and I am vaguely interested in finding out more, however, when I flicked through the first book of the Revelations Cycle, it wasn't exactly what I was looking for, so I would be interested to know what people thought were "Invaluable supplements" and what is "nice, but not essential" Thanks for your patience, Matt Helm. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:16:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A rather naive question At 3:07 PM +0100 4/13/99, Helm, Matthew wrote: >How much do "non-artifact" (as in plain, ordinary, mundane...) things >cost at character creation? Not being completely conversant with the >rules, I bought a .44 at character creation for 1 character point. >After a bit of reading I realised that this could mean that I was >"attuned" to the gun... which was really a bit more than I wanted. If the GM thinks it's plausible for you to have it -- you have it. See p. 203, the white text, last full paragraph on the page. Having mundane "stuff" doesn't cost character points, but the GM has to approve it. >On the same line, is there a guide anywhere of how much things should >cost? Point wise or dollar wise? Dollar-wise, you're either on your own or should flip through something like GURPS High-Tech (for guns)... > The rule book seems to make vague references to an items >"Ordinary cost", Give me a page-reference to this vague reference and I'll see what I can decipher. >Finally, on a slightly more subjective tone, which supplements would >people recommend? I'd recommend the _Infernal Player's Guide_, because it was the first book I had substantial Line Editor input into; the _Liber Castellorum_, because it was the first book I edited and I'm very proud of my baby; and the forthcoming _Liber Servitorum_, because I edited it and it was a project from Hell and it had blessed well *better* sell for all the headaches it gave me! (It looks very pretty, though, which makes me feel more cheerful about it.) Of course, all three of those are highly biased opinions, so be sure to factor that into any objective decisions you make. O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:23:55 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> A rather naive question Helm, Matthew wrote: > How much do "non-artifact" (as in plain, ordinary, mundane...) things > cost at character creation? Not being completely conversant with the > rules, I bought a .44 at character creation for 1 character point. > After a bit of reading I realised that this could mean that I was > "attuned" to the gun... which was really a bit more than I wanted. Mundane objects normally don't cost any character points. The character should probably have whatever it would be natural for them to have based on role, or things that can be picked up normally. GM's discretion is the best regulator of this. > On the same line, is there a guide anywhere of how much things should > cost? The rule book seems to make vague references to an items > "Ordinary cost", so that multipliers can be applied, but I haven't found > anywhere that lists those ordinary costs (I will admit that I haven't > read _every_ word of the rule book, but I had a good look through). There isn't a price list. Use your judgement for most items. Other role-playing games have price lists. If you were setting the IN game in the 1920s, I'd recommend the Call of Cthulhu list, but I'm not very familiar with modern games. In general, IN is pretty fuzzy with these kinds of real world subjects, as that isn't its real focus. > Finally, on a slightly more subjective tone, which supplements would > people recommend? I only have the main book at the moment, and I am > vaguely interested in finding out more, however, when I flicked through > the first book of the Revelations Cycle, it wasn't exactly what I was > looking for, so I would be interested to know what people thought were > "Invaluable supplements" and what is "nice, but not essential" The Infernal Players Guide is extremely useful; the Angelic one less so, as it wasn't well play-tested, but it still has some good information. The Libers (Reliquariam - for Artifacts, Canticorum - for Songs, and Castellorum - for Tethers) are good rules supplements that give examples of their subject as well as expanding the rules and concepts around them. I'd put them in descending order of importance in the list above. Revelations Cycle - Hoo, boy. They're ones we still go around on quite a bit. The expanded Superior write-ups are often, though not always, very helpful if you are using that particular Archangel/Demon Prince. The adventures are spotty, at best. The other source material is hit-or-miss. I'd take a closer look at each individual book before deciding on purchasing it. j. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:37:05 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: IN> New PBEM I've been reading the list for a while lurking, but not really posted, but I'm playing in a tabletop game of IN atm anyway, and while I'd prefer to run one tabletop the potential player base is kind of in use :) so I thought this would be a good place to ask if anyone was interested in a PBEM. Please reply to me off-list, thanks. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) IN sig>Ofanim of Light, Master of the the Realms of Night(long story) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:49:48 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> A rather naive question Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 3:07 PM +0100 4/13/99, Helm, Matthew wrote: > > >How much do "non-artifact" (as in plain, ordinary, mundane...) things > >cost at character creation? Not being completely conversant with the > >rules, I bought a .44 at character creation for 1 character point. > >After a bit of reading I realised that this could mean that I was > >"attuned" to the gun... which was really a bit more than I wanted. In Nomine tends to play 'fast and free' with mundane equipment. If it's reasonable to your role, or even if you can just convince the GM, you pretty much have it. > >On the same line, is there a guide anywhere of how much things should > >cost? > > Point wise or dollar wise? Dollar-wise, you're either on your own > or should flip through something like GURPS High-Tech (for guns)... Or you can just look in a catalog or on the web. That won't help if you are trying to buy a black market nuclear weapon, but I suspect that is more of a role playing challenge than a financial one! If you are the GM, don't bother to count pennies! If the players have been spending less than their Roles would earn them, don't sweat a few bucks. If they have been spending more, just mention they are running out of cash. If they want big items, make it into an adventure to get it, or the money to procure it! > >Finally, on a slightly more subjective tone, which supplements would > >people recommend? > > I'd recommend the _Infernal Player's Guide_, because it was the first > book I had substantial Line Editor input into; the _Liber Castellorum_, > because it was the first book I edited and I'm very proud of my baby; > and the forthcoming _Liber Servitorum_, because I edited it and it > was a project from Hell and it had blessed well *better* sell for > all the headaches it gave me! (It looks very pretty, though, which > makes me feel more cheerful about it.) > > Of course, all three of those are highly biased opinions, so be sure > to factor that into any objective decisions you make. O;> Angelic Player's Guide, though it has some flaws in its free use of canon (and the introduction of... unfortunate... new rules) is also of use. My personal bias is for Liber Reliquarum, but even I will admit it's not needed for a starting player! (It does have a lot of cool artifacts, since you were asking about items above... plus the character point cost of creating them. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:42:15 +0100 From: "Helm, Matthew" Subject: RE: IN> A rather naive question >>Having mundane "stuff" doesn't cost character points, but the GM has to >>approve it. > >Thanks. > >>>On the same line, is there a guide anywhere of how much things should >>>cost? > >>Point wise or dollar wise? Dollar-wise, you're either on your own >>or should flip through something like GURPS High-Tech (for guns)... > >Point wise. > >>> The rule book seems to make vague references to an items >>>"Ordinary cost", > >>Give me a page-reference to this vague reference and I'll see >>what I can decipher. > >P. 43 - White Text - It states that Corporeal objects cost their "Level as a >resource", ethereal "Twice their level as a resource", and Celestial 3x. >Where do I find out what the "Level as a resource" is? (Or am I being stupid >and misunderstanding something?) > >>>Finally, on a slightly more subjective tone, which supplements would >>>people recommend? > >*snip* > >>Of course, all three of those are highly biased opinions, so be sure >>to factor that into any objective decisions you make. O;> > >I did say "Subjective" :-) > >Thanks for your help, > >Matt Helm > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:24:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Levels and Resources At 4:42 PM +0100 4/13/99, Helm, Matthew wrote: >>>Give me a page-reference to this vague reference and I'll see >>>what I can decipher. >> >>P. 43 - White Text - It states that Corporeal objects cost their "Level as a >>resource", ethereal "Twice their level as a resource", and Celestial 3x. >>Where do I find out what the "Level as a resource" is? (Or am I being stupid >>and misunderstanding something?) p. 42, just above "Ethereal Artifacts" -- "The character point cost is equal to its level as a Resource." So if you have a corporeal artifact at level 3, it costs 3 points. p. 42: "The character point cost of an ordinary talisman is twice its level as a Resource" -- so a Lockpicking/3 talisman is 6 points. p. 42: "The cost of a normal celestial artifact is _three times_ its level as a Resource" -- so a Body Bag/3 is 9 points. These all grant the "attuned to it" benefits of being able to track it down if it should happen to get lost, as per "Using Artifacts," p. 41, second paragraph in that section. A mundane "thing" is not an artifact, and therefore has no level as a Resource. (A Resource is, basically, anything you pay points for! And they cost points according to their level and other modifiers. All levels of Resources max out at 6.) For Artifacts, their level is how attuned to it the character is -- add the appropriate realm of Forces to the level, and roll to see if you can find it. The cost is based on whether it's a corporeal artifact, a talisman, or a relic/reliquary. (1/2/3 per level, respectively, plus points for special Features/Limitations.) For Roles, the level is how integrated into the Symphony the character is -- roll against Corporeal Forces + Role level to see if you can muffle a Role-oriented Symphonic Disturbance. The cost of a Role depends on its Level and the Status associated with it. For Servants, the level is subtracted from their Will when you order them to do something they don't wanna. The cost of a Servant depends on its Level and Class (how powerful a being the servant is). For Skills, the level is added to an attribute (like Strength or Perception) to get the Target Number which you roll against to perform a skill. Cost of Skill levels is one-for-one. For Songs, the level is added to appropriate Forces to get the Target Number which you roll against to perform the Song. Cost of Song levels is one-for-one. For Vessels, the level indicates how tough the vessel is, in part. You add their level into the equation that figures Body Hits. These levels cost 3 per level. Does that help? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:40:51 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Levels and Resources At 12:24 -0400 4/13/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >For Artifacts, their level is how attuned to it the character is -- add >the appropriate realm of Forces to the level, and roll to see if you can >find it. And, more importantly, for Ethereal and Celestial artifacts, the level is how powerful the artifact is. This doesn't arise for Corporeal ones; all they get is the attunement part. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:41:19 -0400 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Levels and Resources >For Artifacts, their level is how attuned to it the character is -- add >the appropriate realm of Forces to the level, and roll to see if you can >find it. The cost is based on whether it's a corporeal artifact, a >talisman, or a relic/reliquary. (1/2/3 per level, respectively, plus >points for special Features/Limitations.) So a gun is worth as much as a Dodge Durango, if they're both attuned to their celestial at the same level? Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:46:52 +0000 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Levels and Resources "Azrael" wrote: > > >For Artifacts, their level is how attuned to it the character is -- add > >the appropriate realm of Forces to the level, and roll to see if you can > >find it. The cost is based on whether it's a corporeal artifact, a > >talisman, or a relic/reliquary. (1/2/3 per level, respectively, plus > >points for special Features/Limitations.) > > So a gun is worth as much as a Dodge Durango, if they're both attuned to > their celestial at the same level? As far as Character Points are concerned, yes, TTBOMK. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "Wolfen one, you are my midday moon and I, your midnight sun...." Heather Alexander, "Wolfen One" on the album, "Midsummer" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:03:30 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Levels and Resources At 1:41 PM -0400 4/13/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: >>For Artifacts, their level is how attuned to it the character is -- add >>the appropriate realm of Forces to the level, and roll to see if you can >>find it. The cost is based on whether it's a corporeal artifact, a >>talisman, or a relic/reliquary. (1/2/3 per level, respectively, plus >>points for special Features/Limitations.) > >So a gun is worth as much as a Dodge Durango, if they're both attuned to >their celestial at the same level? Yup, character point-wise. Or the same as the Titanic. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:19:50 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Survey... Want something in the line? Check out www.sjgames.com/in-nomine and follow the link to the survey... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:58:57 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Levels and Resources At 3:03 PM -0400 4/13/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 1:41 PM -0400 4/13/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: > >>For Artifacts, their level is how attuned to it the character is -- add > >>the appropriate realm of Forces to the level, and roll to see if you can > >>find it. The cost is based on whether it's a corporeal artifact, a > >>talisman, or a relic/reliquary. (1/2/3 per level, respectively, plus > >>points for special Features/Limitations.) > > > >So a gun is worth as much as a Dodge Durango, if they're both attuned to > >their celestial at the same level? > >Yup, character point-wise. Or the same as the Titanic. Oh great. Now I *know* one of my players will list "Titanic" on his sheet under possessions, with a level one attunement. Probably one of the Kobal Servitors. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1199 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.