From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Apr 29 10:00:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03736 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:00:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA25982 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:56:20 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:56:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199904291456.JAA25982@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1211 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, April 29 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1211 In this digest: Re: IN> Mosquitos Re: IN> Shedim and hosts IN> Question Re: IN> Question Re: IN> Question Re: IN> Gate (was Re IN: Attunements (Sorcery)) Re: IN> Shedim and hosts Fwd: Re: IN> Question Re: IN> Question Re: IN> Shedim and hosts Re: IN> Shedim and hosts Re: IN> Shedim and hosts IN> Bright Lilim IN> Re: IN- Bright Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and hosts IN> Ah, radiation... IN> Mosquitos Re: IN> Re: IN- Bright Lilim Re: IN> Mosquitos Re: IN> Shedim and hosts Re: IN> Mosquitos IN> Re: Heaven-Sworn Habbalah Re: IN> Re: Heaven-Sworn Habbalah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:27:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Mosquitos Leath Sheales wrote: > Jordi would be horrified to hear you say that. A mosquito's > idea of Heaven would probably be (for the females) a nice blood- > rich vein and no one swatting at them. Actually, when they're not getting ready to lay eggs, mosquitoes of both sexes live harmlessly on nectar from flowers. > Jordi and his angels kindly oblige (not that it's real blood...) In a discussion on the immortality of animal souls, C. S. Lewis remarked that a Heaven for mosquitoes and a Hell for humans could be conveniently combined. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:53:36 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and hosts At 10:21 AM -0400 4/28/99, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 21:24 -0400 4/27/99, Hilary Hayes wrote: > > However, the host =does= know they're suddenly > >doing stuff they wouldn't normally do. Similarly, the Shedite sometimes > >has to 'push' the host. The relationship is complex. If there was no form > >of communication, the host couldn't resist. > >I think we're using different meanings for "communication" here. I would have >said, instead, that there is a form of "interaction", not "communication", >though I can see using "communication" in the sense that physics might use >it.... > >I see it as more of a one-way process, though, in that the Shedite >is putting substantial information into the host's mind, and is able to >access the host's memories, but it's all driven by the Shedite's own intent. >All the host can really do is *reject* this outside input as being "abnormal", >but it can't limit memory access (that I recall). My take is the host feels like he's running on "automatic," perhaps with a cool anger or pleasure accompanying it -- especially when the Shedite's in full control. You know, that feeling when you're letting yourself do the things you know you'll regret but you just don't care. Just a thousand times worse, since when I get that way I'm usually writing e-mail, not making a bomb or pulling a gun on someone.... > > Perhaps I attribute more > >significance to the 'subconscious' than some people on this list. The > >concept of demonic possession is =not= all that alien to the modern mind. > >Otherwise why did movies like The Exorcist have such an effect on the > >public imagination? > >Well, I'd argue that this is simply an example of the fact that most people >*don't* have "modern minds"... but that's just my rationalist Elohite >prejudices speaking.... At the same time... people don't believe (usually) such things can happen to them. There are always explanations, and most people will cling to the thinnest ones. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:43:39 PDT From: "Lukman Shih" Subject: IN> Question Hi, I got a brief question about IN game mechanics. Some Choir/Band attunements give you bonuses to certain rolls. Are these bonuses applied to the "target number" of the roll or to the check digit of the roll? Thanks. Lukman Shih lukmanshih@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:42:00 -0700 From: "Steven Feldon (GW DogFood)" Subject: Re: IN> Question Page 39, third paragraph: "favorable modifiers may be seen as improving the skill or characteristic rolled against, or raising the target number (same thing)." steve Sent from Novell GroupWise via the Microsoft Exchange Connector for Groupwise. Please report any problems with this message to the sender. Web 4, baby! >>> Lukman Shih 04/28 9:43 AM >>> Hi, I got a brief question about IN game mechanics. Some Choir/Band attunements give you bonuses to certain rolls. Are these bonuses applied to the "target number" of the roll or to the check digit of the roll? Thanks. Lukman Shih lukmanshih@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:52:37 +0100 From: hjalkar@redbrick.dcu.ie (Kevin Walsh) Subject: Re: IN> Question On Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 09:43:39AM -0700, Lukman Shih wrote: > Hi, I got a brief question about IN game mechanics. Some Choir/Band attunements give you bonuses to certain rolls. Are these bonuses applied to the "target number" of the roll or to the check digit of the roll? Thanks. > The target number, except where stated otherwise (as in the Malakite of the Sword attunement). Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "It is an impressive thing to hear a helpless woman damned in every item of her life, every corner of her soul. For good reason, no one accused by the Temple has ever been found innocent." Ser Visal's Tale, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:24:13 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Gate (was Re IN: Attunements (Sorcery)) In message , Jason F. McBrayer writes >>>>>> "JB" == Julian Breen writes: > >["Gate" Attunement] > >JB> A celestial summoned to Earth from Heaven/Hell/The Marches, need >JB> _not_ have a Vessel! > >Although if they're a Servitor of Dreams or Nightmare, they're >screwed. That's a really nasty trick you could pull on someone if you >had their Heart... Corruptors and Dominations might have a hard time, >too. > Yes, although you still get a Per roll to help determine exactly who it is that is Gating you, and you get a chance to resist should you wish. It may be Dissonant for you to assume Celestial form on Earth as a servant of Dreams or Nightmares but if you *have* a Vessel then you can materialise in that. If you don't have one, well, do you wish to disobey a direct command from your Master/Baron? After all, it *must* be urgent if they would inflict such evils upon you. Better hope that you make that Per roll. ;) Obviously, Individuals who serve Dreams/Nightmares with this attunement are going to have to use discretion in doing so when Gating others to Earth. If they are aware that their subject has a Vessel then its not quite so bad. Their Superior is going to take notice if they are inflicting Dissonance upon lesser Celestials in a trivial fashion. Slapped wrist (or worse) and quite probably a revoked attunement. In the case of Kyrios/Shedim, then you had best ensure that there is a suitable host(s) available for them, or you might get into similar trouble with your Superior. >JB> Please note that this hasn't been playtested. I am still unsure of >JB> whether or not to make the transport between locales on earth more >JB> expensive (due to the laws of reality there being harder to tweak) but >JB> essentially, I was looking at allowing a possessor of this attunement to >JB> be able to Gate in perhaps two or three 7-9 force underlings and still >JB> have some Essence to play around with. It makes confronting >JB> Barons/Masters considerably more... unpredictable. :) > >It would be a really useful attunement of Seneschals, too. I'm not >sure whether the Essence cost for summoning servitors already in the >Corporal realm is too cheap, either. I don't really have any >suggestions for fixing it. > > Hmm . Considering the limitations on Celestial movement there, I can understand this. As for Seneschals, I really must get around to reading my Castellorum (with regard to how easily they can get their hands on Essence)... Note that I don't see this attunement as being _that_ widespread. I'm not proposing that all characters of at least Master/Baron rank possess it. You will possess it only if you are highly valued by your Superior in terms of your personal talents, and/or your strategic importance to The War. If you run into someone with it, then they're Major League V.I.P, or the Flavour of the Month, or both. - -- Julian 'You're late, Agonostis.' 'Yes, my lord.' There was no way not to be late getting to the throne room -- it could only be reached by walking down those steps, and the steps extended -- and kept extending -- until the petitioner going down to face Lucifer was exactly late enough to put the Archfiend into a fine rage. Hell's archtitects had designed it that way... and Agonostis hoped every one of them got a chance to try the damned steps out, too. -- 'Sympathy for the Devil' -- by Holly Lisle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:25:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and hosts At 10:53 AM -0400 4/28/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >My take is the host feels like he's running on "automatic," perhaps >with a cool anger or pleasure accompanying it -- especially when the >Shedite's in full control. You know, that feeling when you're >letting yourself do the things you know you'll regret but you just >don't care. The way I treat Shedim, in my own mind, has much to do with a nightmare I once had. In the dream, one of my cats had gotten her toes stuck in a screen (like a windowscreen or screen door), and they were sticking out like cute little grapes. And in the dream I was plucking them off. Being slightly bothered, but it was like my hand kept moving of its own volition. When I woke up, I wanted to scrub my mind out. To me, that was a very Shedite dream. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:25:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Question This showed up, for some reason, not on the list. Just my system not filtering? >From: "Steven Feldon (GW DogFood)" >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com, owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Question >Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:42:00 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Page 39, third paragraph: "favorable modifiers may be seen as improving the >skill or characteristic rolled against, or raising the target number (same >thing)." > >steve > >Sent from Novell GroupWise via the Microsoft Exchange Connector for >Groupwise. > >Please report any problems with this message to the sender. Web 4, baby! > >>>> Lukman Shih 04/28 9:43 AM >>> > Hi, I got a brief question about IN game mechanics. Some Choir/Band >attunements give you bonuses to certain rolls. Are these bonuses applied to >the "target number" of the roll or to the check digit of the roll? Thanks. > > > Lukman Shih > lukmanshih@hotmail.com > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:25:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Question At 9:43 AM -0700 4/28/99, Lukman Shih wrote: > Hi, I got a brief question about IN game mechanics. Some Choir/Band attunements give you bonuses to certain rolls. Are these bonuses applied to the "target number" of the roll or to the check digit of the roll? Thanks. Unless it says "bonus to the check digit," it means bonus to the target number. (Which, if the target number goes over 12, will do the usual bonuses to CD.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:54:29 -0400 From: Hilary Hayes Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and hosts >rationalist Elohite prejudices speaking....< Prejudice is subjective. The Elohim are objective. The rationalist way of looking at things is merely a point of view and not necessarily more valid than any other..... Hilary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:12:30 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and hosts At 3:54 PM -0400 4/28/99, Hilary Hayes wrote: > >rationalist Elohite prejudices speaking....< > >Prejudice is subjective. The Elohim are objective. The rationalist way of >looking at things is merely a point of view and not necessarily more valid >than any other..... In all things, there are preferences. When one is essentially rational, one can appreciate the rational far better than the irrational in one's argument. Objectivity demands that one not base their decisions merely on one's preferred point of views, but that does not cause one to not hold opinion or even prejudice. However, when one is speaking and expressing those prejudices, one must be certain the listener knows when subjective opinion is being rendered as opposed to objective analysis. Which in this case was done. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:29:48 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and hosts Hilary Hayes wrote: > I don't think so either. However, the host =does= know they're suddenly > doing stuff they wouldn't normally do. Similarly, the Shedite sometimes > has to 'push' the host. I disagree. Remember, Shedim are -subtle- about it to start with. They DO make the host do things the host would normally do, they just push a - -tiny- bit at first. Remember, it's the rare and usually inexperienced Shedite who grabs a new host and goes on a shooting spree the same day. At first, you may not tip a waitress...that's -hardly- call for a host to question his sanity. Then you up the ante -very- slowly and subtly, so that each new day brings a -tiny- increment of corruption in. A good Shedite can ride a host for -months- if it's careful, only then moving on to the much-coveted 'belltower time'. By then, the fall into corruption has been so gradual that no, the host probably -won't- be questioning their actions much at all. The relationship is complex. If there was no form > of communication, the host couldn't resist. Perhaps I attribute more > significance to the 'subconscious' than some people on this list. The > concept of demonic possession is =not= all that alien to the modern mind. > Otherwise why did movies like The Exorcist have such an effect on the > public imagination? Perhaps some hosts later decide they've been abducted > by aliens. I think you're giving people too much credit. People attribute most things to an internal cause. Whether they outwardly -deny- it or not doesn't mean that, deep down, their subconscious doesn't know it's probably been them the whole time. The point is the host, to a certain extent, is =present= whilst > the Shedite possesses him. Otherwise he could not be properly corrupted. > It's one of the things that makes Shedites different from Kyriotates and, > leaving host/Shedite communication out of the game makes life =far= too > easy for the Shedite. The host should become more and more difficult to > control and, personally, I find it hard to work out how this could be so if > there was no two-way communication. Life -far- too easy?? Shedim have to do something new EVERY DAY or gain Dissonance. They have one of the WORST and most crippling Dissonance conditions there is. Not acting on your emotions selfishly or not being caught in a lie is -cake- compared to that. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:29:59 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: IN> Bright Lilim in what book are Bright Lilim detailed? Dennis H. Groome V -- "Amo Nympham" Web Developer, AN Consulting nallix@bellsouth.net ICQ: 11340261 http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9651 "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" - -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:51:36 CDT From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Bright Lilim >Amo Nympham >Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 > >in what book are Bright Lilim detailed? > Bright Lilim are detailed in Revelations IV (4) Fall of the Malakim. The description starts on page 25 and ends on page 28. drakemagi Reality is my playground. And boy! what a playground! _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:08:15 -0400 From: Hilary Hayes Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and hosts >However, when one is speaking and expressing those prejudices, one must be certain the listener knows when subjective opinion is being rendered as opposed to objective analysis. Which in this case was done.< The problem of prejudice lies in the etymology of the word. 'Pre-judice' - to have an opinion prior to judging the evidence. One needs to look, carefully and objectively, at all the available evidence before forming a judgement. Opinions may be formed (provided they are neither acted upon without regard to the equally valid opinions or others nor 'held' in the sense of being hung onto despite evidence to the contrary) but judging an issue =before= the evidence has been assessed is, surely, dissonant. As to the question of rationality as opposed to irrationality - where does that leave Faith? H H ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:17:06 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Ah, radiation... >No -- sunburn isn't like a fire burn. It is ultraviolet radiation-caused >damage at the genetic level. I agree with the part about celestials being >tougher, but there isn't any reason for servitors of fire to be immune.... I'd let 'em be immune for cinematic, rather than realistic, reasons. Gabriel is the Archangel of the sun (among other things encompassed by her Word); the idea of one of her angels getting sunburn is just silly. (Unless maybe he's dissonant....) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:17:10 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Mosquitos >>>Given that a vessel gets bitten, it's another question whether they'll suffer swelling and itching. This is an allergic reaction to mosquito saliva, and might not be something the vessel has to do. So even if vessels attract mosquitoes, they might not generally notice the bites.<<< Vessels are immune to disease, but not poison...they are highly resistant to poison, however. Which category would allergic reactions to mosquito saliva fall under? I'd say most celestials would have no trouble ignoring mosquito bites in any case. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:31:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Bright Lilim At 4:51 PM -0500 4/28/99, Wade Hursman wrote: >>Amo Nympham >>Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 >> >>in what book are Bright Lilim detailed? >> > >Bright Lilim are detailed in Revelations IV (4) Fall of the Malakim. >The description starts on page 25 and ends on page 28. There's also a bit about them in the IPG, in the Redemption section. (IPG = Infernal Player's Guide.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:38:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Mosquitos At 7:17 PM -0400 4/28/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Given that a vessel gets bitten, it's another question whether >they'll suffer swelling and itching. This is an allergic >reaction to mosquito saliva, and might not be something the >vessel has to do. So even if vessels attract mosquitoes, they >might not generally notice the bites.<<< > >Vessels are immune to disease, but not poison...they are highly resistant >to poison, however. Which category would allergic reactions to mosquito >saliva fall under? I'd say most celestials would have no trouble ignoring >mosquito bites in any case. I'm not sure -- humans can be immune to even poison ivy, so it's a bit weird. (My mom was immune to it for a while -- then it finally bit her.) If even humans can be immune, then...? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:08:00 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and hosts Hilary Hayes wrote: > As to the question of rationality as opposed to irrationality - where does > that leave Faith? Elohim don't need Faith. They Know God's up there. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:41:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Mosquitos On the vital issue of mosquitoes biting celestials, David Edelstein wrote: > Vessels are immune to disease, but not poison...they are highly > resistant to poison, however. Which category would allergic > reactions to mosquito saliva fall under? I'd say most celestials > would have no trouble ignoring mosquito bites in any case. Allergic responses are made by the immune system. So far as my (nearly nil) knowledge of toxicology goes, the immune system is not generally involved in responses to poisonning. But of course the immune system IS involved in resisting and combating disease. So, on the whole, I'd say the issue of the mosquito-bitten celestial is more closely related to their response to disease (total immunity) than to their response to poison (strong resistance). There remains question of WHY are vessels immune to disease? Humans are immune to Dutch Elm disease (except for James Thurber's uncle), but it's not because our immune systems are especially good at fighting it off; rather, the organism in question has no taste for humans. If vessels are simply not good hosts for any disease organism, that leaves us unclear on the nature of their immune systems. However, if vessels are simply inedible or unpalatable to any disease organism, they wouldn't need immune systems at all. So they wouldn't have allergic reactions (unless such a reaction was specifically designed in, e.g. as a punishment). (You would also expect a vessel to be unpalatable or inedible to any *other* organism, too. Can you spot a vessel by its taste?) If, on the other hand, vessels are immune to disease because they have superhuman, perfect immune systems, then you might argue that the perfection would include perfect RESTRAINT from over-reaction, thus saving vessels from mosquito-bites, poison ivy, hayfever, and much more serious complaints such as Chrone's disease (sp?), lupus, asthma, and some forms of arthritis. I'd say the odds are that mosquito-bitten vessels don't itch. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:00:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Re: Heaven-Sworn Habbalah > >> I was wondering whether there is any particular reason that a recently > >> former Elohite turned Habbalah couldn't choose to stay with the forces of > >> Heaven rathern than defect to Hell. > > FL> 1. As demons, the Light of Heaven burns them as much as any other Band. Well, one could keep them assigned to extended service on the corporeal and/or Ethereal planes, with the proper supervision. > > Except, of course, for Malakim. > > That said, there are plenty of reasons that Habbalah wouldn't want to > work alongside the lower Choirs of Angels. It's not that they are > corrupted, as you suggest, but simply that they are pathetic to > watch. But the Bands are equally pathetic, and they are open flouters of God's will. At least the Choirs are trying to serve in their own limited way. Given the chance any Habbalah should choose to work with the Heavenly Host and against those so weak they couldn't make it as members of the lesser Choirs. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas And no, I'm not turning Habbalah, just using their own perceptions as part of a persuasive arguement. It's objectively the best thing to do. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:54:33 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Re: Heaven-Sworn Habbalah On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > That said, there are plenty of reasons that Habbalah wouldn't want to > > work alongside the lower Choirs of Angels. It's not that they are > > corrupted, as you suggest, but simply that they are pathetic to > > watch. > > But the Bands are equally pathetic, and they are open flouters of God's > will. At least the Choirs are trying to serve in their own limited way. > Given the chance any Habbalah should choose to work with the Heavenly > Host and against those so weak they couldn't make it as members of the > lesser Choirs. But the Choirs are doing worse things than the Bands, and sully God's name by justifying their actions as being His will. That should be worse, shouldn't it? The Bands are at least doing God's will, for the most part, by punishing the weak... :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1211 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.