From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 11 23:36:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02828 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 23:36:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA00571 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 11 May 1999 23:32:38 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:32:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199905120432.XAA00571@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1220 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 11 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1220 In this digest: RE: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question IN> Discord Re: IN> Interesting spam? Nah... IN> Noachide Law Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question IN> PBem rules Re: IN> Discord Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question Re: IN> Celestial Time Limits? Re: IN> Celestial Time Limits? Re: IN> Celestial Time Limits? Re: IN> Interesting spam? Nah... Re: IN> Interesting spam? Nah... Re: IN> Interesting spam? Nah... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:29:59 -0700 From: "McCarthy, Douglas J" Subject: RE: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question > From: Benjamin Acosta > In the rules the bodies of those possessed are considered vessels and gain > all the benefits of Celestial vessels. What I'm wondering is do such > bodies count as "vessels" in the event of celestial death? If a > kyriotate's three celestial forces are destroyed in a fight while the rest > of him is in Joe Mortal or a shedite spending essence makes its ressonance > roll (through luck and use of essence) to slip into a body just as it's > last Celestial Force is destroyed then do the remaining forces in the body > dissapate into the Symphony or do they remain entwined within the force > pattern of the possessed human? And if so, do they just lie there > dormant, or are the songs, attunements, skills, and memories locked within > them accessible by the host, free to use as he wishes since no will is > left to oppose him? Does the host become some sort of half-celestial > hybrid or will the forces locked within him separate upon his death? > Would the result be different depending on whether it was a mundane or > soldier host? Could absorbing a kyriotate/shedite jump a mundane to > soldier status with the infusion of forces and knowledge? Would a soldier > who had this happen to him have access to ethereal songs due to the late > celestials connection? If any of the above is possible I see some neat > possibilites for neutral or wild card soldiers created by such a process, > as well as a super-soldier to throw at pc celestials who keep on > underestimating humans. So, is there a cannon answer to this, or is it > still an open area yet to be decided? Or will it become a RACDAU? What's a RACDAU? IMC there is a quasi-Remnant Kyriotate of Laurence that has been wandering around in his unnecessarily-killed-soldier vessel for twenty-seven years. He was in a big celestial fight, and he got celestially "blown to bits" (for lack of a better term) - two of his Corporeal Forces stayed in the host vessel while the other ones splattered all over the place and landed in nearby objects. The PC's have found this 2-Force shell of a vessel and have been trying to put the Kyrio back together. It's not like they're just trying to pump him back up with more Forces in order to revive him, which wouldn't work; they are tracking down his *original* Forces and getting them back in him. Sort of like what Legion did, in reverse. It may not be canon, but it's fun. I don't know if this applies to the original question, since Kyrios of Laurence are special in regards to vessels, but it's one take on it. In general, I'd say that a Kyrio that lost all his CelF while in a vessel hasn't really vacated the vessel for the original human to come back in, so the human would be stuck in dreamland until his body actually died. Not a pleasant thing to do to a human, but the Kyrio probably didn't mean for it to happen anyway. Now a suicidal Shedite, on the other hand... - -- D. J. McCarthy And this is artificial moonlight... dmccart@intel.com and artificial sky. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:35:46 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question Assuming that what I remember is correct, Kyriotates and Shedim don't work like that. When they put three Forces into a body, they're not three specific Forces. Rather, they're putting 3/X of their total Forces in, where X is their total Forces. A Kyrio with 9 Forces, then, distributed 3/2/4, would have 1/3 of his Forces distributed into that body at any given time. Additionally, the Forces aren't divided so much as they're fractioned; the Kyrio in question would have 1/3 of his Forces in that body, of which 1/3 were Corporeal, 2/9 were Ethereal, and 4/9 were Celestial. However, that partially doesn't answer your question. A Kyriotate remnant, depending on campaign style, could, theoretically, stay alive indefinitely, via really good rolls and well-timed use of Essence. After being forced out of the current host, he could spend a bunch of Essence and roll really damn well - remember, his Will is 0! - and get into another one... then after another few days, do the same and get into another one... and so on and so forth. This is, of course, assuming that your remnants gain Essence every day and can spend it when they wish. A Shedite remnant is in a slightly better position. He can choose to either take Dissonance upon Dissonance for not corrupting his host, or corrupt away until he can no longer, and then do the same as the Kyrio remnant (leaving time to corrupt again, of course). However, these would not be Super-soldiers; they'd still be detectable as celestial-infested vessels to those who can detect that sort of thing. - -EDG rambling, sorry - -- EDG, Mercurian of Lightning ist Archives, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu www.gamingoutpost.com www.insanitymag.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:50:34 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question On Tue, 11 May 1999, EDG wrote: > Assuming that what I remember is correct, Kyriotates and Shedim don't work > like that. When they put three Forces into a body, they're not three > specific Forces. Rather, they're putting 3/X of their total Forces in, > where X is their total Forces. A Kyrio with 9 Forces, then, distributed > 3/2/4, would have 1/3 of his Forces distributed into that body at any given > time. Hmm - I'm not entirely sure about that - it doesn't say which Forces go where - but I'd say it was possible that given the way Kyrios can move Forces around within their Hosts it would be an instinctive reaction at the moment of Remnanthood to put the Corporeal and Ethereal Forces into Hosts - or if currently in no-one at all (rather than just having a portion of them Celestial) then at the last second attempt to possess someone nearby and shove them all into it. > > Additionally, the Forces aren't divided so much as they're fractioned; the > Kyrio in question would have 1/3 of his Forces in that body, of which 1/3 > were Corporeal, 2/9 were Ethereal, and 4/9 were Celestial. Judging by the way Fractured Forces Discord and the other one works - I suppose you could read it that way but I didn't see their Forces being split into bits like that. > > However, that partially doesn't answer your question. > > A Kyriotate remnant, depending on campaign style, could, theoretically, > stay alive indefinitely, via really good rolls and well-timed use of > Essence. After being forced out of the current host, he could spend a > bunch of Essence and roll really damn well - remember, his Will is 0! - and > get into another one... then after another few days, do the same and get > into another one... and so on and so forth. > Regarding both this and the Shedite below - Remnants do not gain Dissonance. They lose any they had - but keep Discord. I would say both Kyriotate and Shedite Remnants would simply remain in one Host(possibly remaining in multiple Hosts for the Kyrio). > This is, of course, assuming that your remnants gain Essence every day and > can spend it when they wish. > Everyone gains Essence - and for spending it they are either Symphonically aware still and can use Essence at will - or are not and will therefore spend it whenever they really want to succeed as per mortals. I can't find a clear ref in the book as it whether they can still here Disturbance etc or not. Although of course I may have missed it :) > A Shedite remnant is in a slightly better position. He can choose to > either take Dissonance upon Dissonance for not corrupting his host, or > corrupt away until he can no longer, and then do the same as the Kyrio > remnant (leaving time to corrupt again, of course). > > However, these would not be Super-soldiers; they'd still be detectable as > celestial-infested vessels to those who can detect that sort of thing. Be quite difficult to detect as all the usual problems of detecting a Celestial in a vessel apply - and they are immune to Perception resonances as well. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) Ofanim of Light, Master of the Realms of Nights, potentially Seneschal of the Dawnline. (Assuming I survive ordering LA napalm bombed by the USAF.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 04:53:38 PDT From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Discord Just out of curiosity, how many people who post to this list consider themselves discordian or discordian leaning? Please reply to me off list at hydrax@hotmail.com as I do not wish to face the wrath of an angry Demon Princess. If I get enough replies, I'll put them on the list (or link at my page). Anyway, reply. Jesus wants to save you Allah wants to protect you Cthulu wants to have you for lunch Hydrax 59 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:45:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Interesting spam? Nah... "Noachide" means "descendent of Noah," and is compounded of Noah's name plus the "-id"/"-ide" ending from Greek used to indicate descent. I've also seen the Hebrew form Bene Noah (singular, Ben Noah). We are all Noachides, since all surviving humanity is descended from Noah, according to the tale. Just as there is a specific covenant between God and Israel, so there is a universal covenant between the Noachides (everyone) and God, spelled out at the end of the Flood story. Well, not spelled out entirely, but spelled out in part and, for the rest, inferred. The result is Elizabeth's list (though I didn't recall the two about idolatry and blasphemy, myself. However, such would be appropriate to a sect of gentiles who believed the Jews were right but did not become Jews themselves.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:57:16 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Noachide Law Chris V: >> I asked one of my friends, who is a chosen one, and he guestematied that >> "noahchide" might be a name of a tribe of Isreal. Elizabeth Bartley: >I believe it's the Jewish laws that the gentiles are expected to abide by. >There are seven of them. The ones I can remember: Yup. I got the spam myself, and that's what it's referring to. "Noachide" is the adjective form of "Noah," the flood guy. Those six or seven commandments were given to him after the Flood, and are thus binding on all humanity. Since the Jews later entered into a stricter covenant, the Noachide laws now apply as God's will for the Gentiles. Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campuscwix.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:22:23 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > In the rules the bodies of those possessed are considered vessels and gain > all the benefits of Celestial vessels. What I'm wondering is do such > bodies count as "vessels" in the event of celestial death? Yes, but with restrictions. Read on... > If a > kyriotate's three celestial forces are destroyed in a fight while the rest > of him is in Joe Mortal or a shedite spending essence makes its ressonance > roll (through luck and use of essence) to slip into a body just as it's > last Celestial Force is destroyed then do the remaining forces in the body > dissapate into the Symphony or do they remain entwined within the force > pattern of the possessed human? You should take a breath in sentences this long! ;) First, it's not that a kyrio has 'three celestial forces' in a fight. It require three forces of any type to manifest a celestial form. No part of the kyrio is divided from another part, it's still ONE being (though one that is vulnerable to celestial attacks). The Kyrio _does_ lose the ability to maintain a celestial form when they become a remnant, so that form vanishes. If they are in possession of a host at that time, that's where the last of their consciousness exists. But there's the whole problem of that time limit. Typically the kyrio gets kicked out and DIES. Agh! (With no WILL to take over anyone new, they are SOL). IMC, however, I leave the options a bit more open. It's a rather bizarre situation, so I get creative! =) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:50:00 -0300 From: Felipe Pereira Subject: IN> PBem rules Hi all, long time I dont write, think I dont have enought time Well, now I will. Could anyone tell me where I could find some PBem rules??? thank you for your attention. Felipe W. Pereira a.k.a. Azrael fwp@globalsite.com.br ICQ number: 2192991 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:49:27 -0500 From: "James Bearse" Subject: Re: IN> Discord This doesn't have to be considered an off-topic post... after all, from an IN point of view, Eris is in an interesting position. Either she's (a) one of the few Greco-Roman deities pulling in Essence in this day and age, (b) a Dream Spirit of some sort who *thinks* she's Eris - not too different from above, (c) a servant of Eli - possible making the Principia Discordia an artifact or really strange form of mobile tether, or (d) a servant of Kobal working towards a hitherto unknown punchline. I may have to sit down and write some stats. Maybe four sets of stats even. Jim Bearse, a.k.a. Savage Wombat - -- who's been really enjoying showing his contributor's copy of Liber Servitorum to everyone in a twenty mile radius - ----- Original Message ----- From: Hydrax 59 To: Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 6:53 AM Subject: IN> Discord > Just out of curiosity, how many people who post to this list consider > themselves discordian or discordian leaning? Please reply to me off list at > hydrax@hotmail.com as I do not wish to face the wrath of an angry Demon > Princess. If I get enough replies, I'll put them on the list (or link at my > page). > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:20:00 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question At 7:40 PM -0500 5/10/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: >In the rules the bodies of those possessed are considered vessels and gain >all the benefits of Celestial vessels. What I'm wondering is do such >bodies count as "vessels" in the event of celestial death? For a while, for Kyrios -- but then the resonance is lost to the remnant, and since it can't repossess... For the duration, it will be an amnesiac with all the stats of the Kyrio, while the human is in the Marches. A Kyrio with a vessel is treated like any other remnant with a vessel. Shedim are _much_ easier to deal with if you simply don't let them get that "destroy last Celestial Force and possess on the same turn." If you _do_ want to let them do that, on your head be it, and you get to figure out your own rules. O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:27:17 +0300 From: "Tick Tock" Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question - -----Original Message----- From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC >Benjamin Acosta wrote: > >> If a >> kyriotate's three celestial forces are destroyed in a fight while the rest >> of him is in Joe Mortal or a shedite spending essence makes its ressonance >> roll (through luck and use of essence) to slip into a body just as it's >> last Celestial Force is destroyed then do the remaining forces in the body >> dissapate into the Symphony or do they remain entwined within the force >> pattern of the possessed human? > > You should take a breath in sentences this long! ;) >First, it's not that a kyrio has 'three celestial forces' in >a fight. It require three forces of any type to manifest a celestial >form. No part of the kyrio is divided from another part, it's >still ONE being (though one that is vulnerable to celestial attacks). > The Kyrio _does_ lose the ability to maintain a celestial >form when they become a remnant, so that form vanishes. If they >are in possession of a host at that time, that's where the last >of their consciousness exists. But there's the whole problem of >that time limit. Typically the kyrio gets kicked out and DIES. >Agh! (With no WILL to take over anyone new, they are SOL). > Actually I rather like the idea of such an event, rare by definition, as being a catalyst for the gaining of a sixth force. I would guess that such an event would involve a moment of opening one's self to the visitor and joining/incorporating the former angel's being into your own soul. Makes for an interesting scenario with such a character being somewhat of a wild card. As for your thought provoking comments, even if the there were not an actual joining I wonder if the time limit need apply? I'm having difficulty envisioning the Kyrio retaining enough of it's original nature that such be a requirement? Of course I'm assuming that such a desperate act as is being described would require a willing host. An intruder in the mind would seem to provoke a fear or anger response the bodiless cannot hope to best as it has no will. A more "helpful" or at least less frightening presence might be that muse that artists, writers and musicians strive to invoke... Can't see the need to use such an event for creating a super agent , though. A group of trained and motivated soldiers is bad enough. A wild card with knowledge of the nature of the symphony is actually frightening. A most interesting thread... Tick Tock ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:30:04 +0300 From: "Tick Tock" Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question - -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth McCoy >At 7:40 PM -0500 5/10/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: >>In the rules the bodies of those possessed are considered vessels and gain >>all the benefits of Celestial vessels. What I'm wondering is do such >>bodies count as "vessels" in the event of celestial death? > >For a while, for Kyrios -- but then the resonance is lost to the remnant, >and since it can't repossess... For the duration, it will be an amnesiac >with all the stats of the Kyrio, while the human is in the Marches. > >A Kyrio with a vessel is treated like any other remnant with a vessel. > >Shedim are _much_ easier to deal with if you simply don't let them >get that "destroy last Celestial Force and possess on the same turn." >If you _do_ want to let them do that, on your head be it, and you >get to figure out your own rules. O;> Ah, well. It's always fun until canon rears... ...but it's such a *cool* idea! Tick Tock ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:04:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question At 10:30 PM +0300 5/11/99, Tick Tock wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Elizabeth McCoy [schtuff] >Ah, well. It's always fun until canon rears... So make up your own rules... (Sometimes I wish people would say if they want a canon answer, or if they just want to collect all the neat, nifty non-canon ones they can find. I can come up with those, as well...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:52:34 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Time Limits? On Fri, 7 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >There's a limit on how long someone can remain in Celestial form? Where > >is this? I don't remember seeing it in the rules. (Not that it isn't > >there; I just don't remember it.) > > p. 54, Taking Celestial Form section. Ah, yes. There it is. Now for the related question: *Why* is there a time limit on how long someone can remain in Celestial form? After all, they handicap themselves far worse then they benefit themselves. Now they can't interact with the Corporeal world, and they're vulnerable to Force-stripping from Celestial attacks. Just wondering. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:04:21 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Time Limits? At 4:52 PM -0400 5/11/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Fri, 7 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> >There's a limit on how long someone can remain in Celestial form? Where >> >is this? I don't remember seeing it in the rules. (Not that it isn't >> >there; I just don't remember it.) >> >> p. 54, Taking Celestial Form section. > >Ah, yes. There it is. Now for the related question: > >*Why* is there a time limit on how long someone can remain in Celestial >form? Because celestials are not supposed to be on Earth in celestial form. They're alien. The Symphony rebels and pushes them away. If you want the meta-reason, then don't look at me. It was like that when I got here. O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:04:21 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Time Limits? At 4:52 PM -0400 5/11/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Fri, 7 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> >There's a limit on how long someone can remain in Celestial form? Where >> >is this? I don't remember seeing it in the rules. (Not that it isn't >> >there; I just don't remember it.) >> >> p. 54, Taking Celestial Form section. > >Ah, yes. There it is. Now for the related question: > >*Why* is there a time limit on how long someone can remain in Celestial >form? Because celestials are not supposed to be on Earth in celestial form. They're alien. The Symphony rebels and pushes them away. If you want the meta-reason, then don't look at me. It was like that when I got here. O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:31:44 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Interesting spam? Nah... Our spies report that on 09:45 AM 5/11/99 -0500, Earl Wajenberg said: >"Noachide" means "descendent of Noah," and is compounded of >Noah's name plus the "-id"/"-ide" ending from Greek used to >indicate descent. I've also seen the Hebrew form Bene Noah >(singular, Ben Noah). > >We are all Noachides, since all surviving humanity is descended >Earl If we are all Noachides... I may be about to make a major mistake here, but I thought the Covenant was pre-flood in origin. If Noah wasn't a Jew, where did that racial line begin? Sean(feeling real ignorant all of a sudden) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:50:09 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Interesting spam? Nah... At 02:31 PM 5/11/99 -0700, you wrote: > If we are all Noachides... I may be about to make a major mistake here, >but I thought the Covenant was pre-flood in origin. If Noah wasn't a Jew, >where did that racial line begin? The Covenant (as in the Ark of the Covenant) was, IIRC, made in King David's time, which vastly postdates the Flood. Noah was long since dead when it was created. Of course, I could be wrong. :) I believe, however, that Abraham is generally called the first Jew. This has nothing to do with the Covenant, however. :) - -EDG I wish I knew this as fact. - -- EDG, Mercurian of Lightning ist Archives, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu www.gamingoutpost.com www.insanitymag.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:30:59 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Interesting spam? Nah... In a message dated 5/11/99 9:51:20 PM, edg@gamingoutpost.com writes: >At 02:31 PM 5/11/99 -0700, you wrote: > > If we are all Noachides... I may be about to make a major mistake > >here, >>but I thought the Covenant was pre-flood in origin. If Noah wasn't a >Jew, >>where did that racial line begin? > >The Covenant (as in the Ark of the Covenant) was, IIRC, made in King >David's time, which vastly postdates the Flood. Noah was long since dead > >when it was created. > >Of course, I could be wrong. :) > >I believe, however, that Abraham is generally called the first Jew. This > >has nothing to do with the Covenant, however. :) > >-EDG > I wish I knew this as fact. > > >-- >EDG, Mercurian of Lightning ist Archives, Angel of Information Dissemination >anthoch@earlham.edu >www.gamingoutpost.com >www.insanitymag.com > Actually, you're both off. What follows is a sort of Theo 085 discussion. Noah was pre-Abraham, by about 14 generations (according to one count...) He is the father of humanity as we now are. The Noachide Covenant is, essentially, "I am the LORD. I shall not destroy the earth by water." Note that, under the Noachide covenant, animal sacrifice is the correct response to the LORD (YHWH). Abraham was chosen by the LORD to be "The father of a mighty people." He is the ancestor of both the Jewish and the Arabic peoples. His sons, Ishmael and Isaac, are the source of one part of that split, and Isaac's two sons Esau and Jacob/Israel are the rest of that split. Esau and Ishmael's descendants became the Arabs, and Jacob/Israel's descendants became the Jews. (Before you tear me up, I'm at 085 here, remember?) The Abrahamic Covenant was "I shall bless your seed and they shall become a mighty people, and he shall bless all the nations." The Abrahamic Covenant is considered (at least by Christian theologians) to be one of grace. The LORD chose Abraham to be His channel without consideration of Abraham's merits. The Ark of the Covenant is the repository of the Mosaic Covenant. Moses was a descendant of Abraham (085! Please! :) ). The Ten Commandments are the most famous portion of the Mosaic Covenant. King David was even later. He started the conceptual stages for building the Temple, to *hold* the Ark of the Covenant. He existed under the Mosaic Covenant, as do all modern Jews. So you know, Dispensationalism is the technical term for this way of looking at a series of covenants, each changing as God's relation to his people changes. Mark (Can you say Dispensationalism, boys and girls? I knew you could....) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1220 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.