From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 14 17:25:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01154 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 17:25:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA04512 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 14 May 1999 17:24:27 -0500 Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:24:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199905142224.RAA04512@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1223 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 14 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1223 In this digest: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) IN> Off-topic, but just this once... Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question Re: IN> Ethereal Question (was: A Demon We All Know) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) IN> Loose Canons Re: IN> Hey, Elizabeth: About that IN Survey Re: IN> Hey, Elizabeth: About that IN Survey Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Hey, Elizabeth: About that IN Survey Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:51:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Eslin Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Anders wrote: > Trying to bring this back on the topic of this list: what kind of > reactions would percieving the celestial forms of different Choirs inspire > in humans? Kyriotates would definitely be scary, as would Seraphim, > Ofanim, Malakim and quite possibly Cherubim. Suddenly, I have the image of winged border collie Cherubim. Think about it. Romping, panting, licking faces, happily herding their flocks of attuned... This could really get quite disturbing, couldn't it. :) Especially to the attuned... :) - Es ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:11:48 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) At 8:51 AM -0400 5/14/99, Eslin wrote: >Anders wrote: > > > Trying to bring this back on the topic of this list: what kind of > > reactions would percieving the celestial forms of different Choirs inspire > > in humans? Kyriotates would definitely be scary, as would Seraphim, > > Ofanim, Malakim and quite possibly Cherubim. > > Suddenly, I have the image of winged border collie Cherubim. > > Think about it. Romping, panting, licking faces, happily herding >their flocks of attuned... This could really get quite disturbing, >couldn't it. :) > > Especially to the attuned... :) My favorite Cherub character (Brooklyn is his name) has a Celestial Form of a big ol' Irish Wolfhound. Not the prettiest of dogs, but one of the most fiercely loyal, most protective and most loving animals you'll ever meet. That they're big enough to ride doesn't hurt.... Which is more of how I see Cherubim than I do Border Collies, but on the other hand, this *could* explain Lassie, Cherub Servitor of Christopher. Or at least her communication skills.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:20:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Eslin wrote: > Suddenly, I have the image of winged border collie Cherubim. > > Think about it. Romping, panting, licking faces, happily herding > their flocks of attuned... This could really get quite disturbing, > couldn't it. :) Yeah, but it fits right in with all the shepherding imagery in the Psalms and Gospels -- Christ as the Good Shepherd, humans as the sheep, angels as sheepdogs. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:50:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question Benjamin Acosta wrote: "Isn't the reason a Remnant is immune to Perception Resonances because they lack any Celestial Forces to percieve? If this is the case, it might not hold for a Remnant/Host Composite because of the Host's Celestial Forces." Then Perception rolls would get the same results as on an unoccupied but unconscious host, I'd think. "Is it the Will contained in the Celestial Forces which displaces a host's mind into a dreamscape during a Kyriotate possession? If so, then the host's consciousness could snap back to his body once the Kyriotate's C-Forces are gone." I would suppose this to be the case, since Shedite hosts resist with contests of Wills, and not, say, Wits (which would be Ethereal). "And what is the relationship between the Forces of the host and Kyriotate/Shedim? Normal Remants are confused and erratic because of their lack of Celestial Forces. Are the host and Remnant's Forces mingled enough that the C-Forces of the host can fit into the gap in the Remnant's Force Pattern?" Wouldn't think so, in the case of Kyrios, since the host's mind is just plain absent when the Kyrio is in possession. "If this is the case, then that means the Remnant wouldn't really be a Remnant but rather some sort Spiritual Symbiote. With no Will of its own the Remnant would become nothing more but an extension of the host, who would have full access to the skills, songs, and attunements locked in the Remnant's Forces. If the C-Forces of the Host can't fit in the gap, then all that stuff would be unaccessible." I would think it would be inaccessible in Remnanthood just as in normal possession. For Kyrios, there's a clean break between them and the host's mind. For Shedim, the traffic of knowledge is strictly one-way, with no indication that they have to use their Wills to keep the hosts out of their minds. In general, I think a Kyrio or Shedite remnant is a very transient phenomenon. A Kyrio remnant gets pushed out when its time is up, and promptly dissipates. A Shedite remnant automatically loses the first battle of Wills the host puts up, gets pushed out, and dissipates. Those are my guesses, anyway. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:17:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) At 11:42 AM +0200 5/14/99, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >[...] Feeling moved by the Holy Spirit also doesn't get >close to being evidence for Christianity, God, or even the Holy Spirit >itself - people have felt moved by the spirit of Napoleon Bonaparte, which >hardly makes a (hypthetical, I hope) religion based around him true. To combine this with Nightmares (you'll see why in a minute), ethereals, creation of ethereals, and religion... Elvis. (Just think about it.) emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:56:42 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) - -----Original Message----- From: Anders Gabrielsson >Elohim look a bit like Greys, I suppose... could >be scary or not, depending on if you believe you've been abducted or not. Hmmmm, maybe all those stories of alien abductions are actually based on peoples' memories of encountering Elohim in the Marches? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:57:33 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) On Fri, 14 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > To combine this with Nightmares (you'll see why in a minute), ethereals, > creation of ethereals, and religion... > > > > > Elvis. > > (Just think about it.) > > > > This makes me want to post my INWO "The King is Back" deck, but that would be a little bit too far OT, I fear. :) Seriously, I think Elvis, along with some other mythified real or imaginary people could be etherealized (cool word, huh?:). Oooh! Evil idea! Let's say Jesus wasn't part of the Divine Plan, but "only" a Jewish guy who had some cool ideas and gathered a bunch of followers. Not a Soldier, not an Angel (or Demon), not Eli in disguise, not the Son of God... just an ordinary guy. But people believe in him. A lot. A whole bunch of 'em. A -really- big bunch. Millions. Hundreds of millions. Definitely more than the Aesir ever had. So one day this bearded guy strolls out of the Marches and knocks on the Pearly Gates... Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:11:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) On Fri, 14 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > From: Anders Gabrielsson > > >Elohim look a bit like Greys, I suppose... could > >be scary or not, depending on if you believe you've been abducted or not. > > Hmmmm, maybe all those stories of alien abductions are actually based on > peoples' memories of encountering Elohim in the Marches? That's a credible in-world explanation, I think. Or maybe there is a group of Elohim working for Jean (or some other suitable AA) who are examining humans for infernal influences in a more, ah, physical way. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:33:11 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) From: Anders Gabrielsson >On Fri, 14 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > >> From: Anders Gabrielsson >> >> >Elohim look a bit like Greys, I suppose... could >> >be scary or not, depending on if you believe you've been abducted or not. >> >> Hmmmm, maybe all those stories of alien abductions are actually based on >> peoples' memories of encountering Elohim in the Marches? > >That's a credible in-world explanation, I think. Or maybe there is a group >of Elohim working for Jean (or some other suitable AA) who are examining >humans for infernal influences in a more, ah, physical way. :) Now that I've had more time to mull that idea over, I'm starting to think it is actually Habalites of Vapula. Would explain both the inhuman looks, and the inhumane methods. And Nybbas and Kobal are definitely assisting, since it sells tabloids and spurs plenty of probe jokes. And Malphas, because it spurs distrust of the government, by way of cover-up rumors. And Kronos, now that I think about it, because whenever a UFOlogist is dismissed as a kook, it pushes them further toward their Fate. Oh my, this is starting to form the basis of a particularly nasty adventure... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:29:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) The Book of Servitors provides an explanation of Greys as a bunch of predatory Ethereals in service, or allied with, Beleth. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:54:45 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) From: Earl Wajenberg >The Book of Servitors provides an explanation of Greys as a >bunch of predatory Ethereals in service, or allied with, Beleth. Thank you for the info! In my game, though, I'm going to have it be a vast Hellish conspiracy (I'll have to add Beleth to the mix for the nightmare angle, though,) since I've always loved conspiracy theory. *s* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:07:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Off-topic, but just this once... It has to do with Steve Jackson Games, and who knows, celestial blood typing. (In my IN IOU game, someone discovered a bunch of angels are all type O-, universal doners. At least one demon is AB+, universal receiver.) Forwarding this to the list from Reese Harrell, Retail Sales Mgr and Assistant to the President of Steve Jackson Games: >Hello one and all, > >Reese is going to be selfish now. I want something and I'm damned proud to >admit it. I don't ask for much, but this is something I really, really >want. > >I want your help in helping to save someone else's life. > >Okay, how does this help me? It doesn't. > >I have a coworker named Gina. Some of you have heard me talk about her. In >short, she's wonderful and comes from a really close-knit family. So close >>that she and her brother's sister had male children two weeks apart and >these two kids have grown up like brothers. Gina's son's name is Clayton, >his cousin's name is Dalton. > >Yesterday Dalton was run over by a riding lawn mower here in Austin. He's >lost his left eye and his left arm. Also, part of his skull is missing and >there is some damage to the brain. They don't know just how much yet. >Mercifully, the accident sent him immediately into shock. > >He was taken by Life Flight to Beckenridge Hospital here in Ausin, and then >later flown to UTMB in Galveston. Anyway, he's been in surgery for the last >fifteen hours or so, and is listed in serious critical condition. > >The Shriners have stepped in and along with Ronald McDonald House are going >to take care of his medical bills and the famiy's housing. SJG is kicking >in money along with other private individuals and businesses to help. To be >honest with all of you, at the very least Dalton is going to need lots and >lots of surgeries. If you want to donate money (which is not the point of >this letter at all . . .), e-mail me and I'll send you the information >because there is an account set up for his medical bills at a bank in >Lockhart. > >What I'm asking for is blood. > >Yes, blood. > >For those of you that can, I would like for you to donate blood. You can do >this through the Red Cross, at a hospital, or through the Gulf Coast >Regional Blood Bank locations. You can start donating blood for him on >Monday. You will need to tell them that the blood is for Dalton Ayers at >UTMB - Galveston. > >For those of you who are in Austin, the best place for you to contact is >the Central Texas Blood adn Tissue Center. They're pretty much booked for >Monday (I called and checked), mostly with people who worked with Dalton's >parents donating blood. The rest of the week is fairly open, but as word >gets out, that may not be true. You can call (512) 458-1121 to set up an >appointment. If you walk in on any other day but Tuesday, expect to wait >about ten to fifteen minutes. > >For those of you who are in Houston, you can donate at the Gulf Coast >Regional Blood Center. Thier website is located at >http://www.giveblood.org, but you can call (713)-790-1200. You can also >call St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital, (713)-791-4116, Methodist Hospital, >(713)-790-2386, The University of Texas, (713)-792-8630, or the Red Cross >to donate. > >For those of you in and around Dallas, you can donate at Bloodcare, >(214)-351-8577, Parkland Memorial Hospital, (214)-590-8211, or the Red >Cross. > >For those of you who are in the San Antonio area, you can donate at >theSouth Texas Blood & Tissue Center, (210)-731-5555, the University >Health System, (210)-616-4169, or at the Red Cross. The South Texas Blood & >Tissue Center website is located at http://www.bloodntissue.org/. > >If you need other locations in Texas (or anywhere else in the United >States), you can check http://www.aabb.org/docs/bloodmonth.html to find >donation centers and phone numbers. > >Also, I would greatly appreciate it if you would forward this to other >people both in and out of the state. Anyone in the US can donate to anyone >else in the US. The American Association of Blood Banks keeps up with the >number of units donated for each person and moves the blood around in the >local region to make sure that the supply is there if it's needed. So, you >don't need to worry about blood types matching. Even if Dalton doesn't use >the blood you donate (and I can't imagine how he wouldn't), someone will. >You're helping to save someone's life. > >One last thing . . . If this five-year-old makes it, he'll be needing lots >of surgeries and lots of blood. You can redonate blood every four to six >weeks safely. And, please, keep him and his family in your thoughts and >prayers. They need it! > >Reese - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:08:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) At 11:29 AM -0500 5/14/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >The Book of Servitors provides an explanation of Greys as a >bunch of predatory Ethereals in service, or allied with, Beleth. _One_ explanation of Greys, really. Where they got the idea from? Who knows... O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:08:06 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) On Fri, 14 May 1999, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > Trying to bring this back on the topic of this list: what kind of > reactions would percieving the celestial forms of different Choirs inspire > in humans? Kyriotates would definitely be scary, as would Seraphim, > Ofanim, Malakim and quite possibly Cherubim. The only ones that look > "nice" are Mercurians - Elohim look a bit like Greys, I suppose... could > be scary or not, depending on if you believe you've been abducted or not. > :) Well, this happens on an infrequent but regular basis in my campaign. My players use celestial form to short circut questions when they try to recruit new Soldiers. I handle it in much the same way that it's handled in the Bible: fear and worship. The fear because they suddenly realise that they are in the presence of something greater than themselves, and the worship because they can sense the Divine within that presence (because they mande their Perception roll). However, the angels are required to not accept that worship, and are instead to tell the human to give glory to God (something which my players have had no trouble remembering to do). Demonic celestial forms only inspire terror. But many of them are good at persuading humans that the terror means that they are in the presence of something greater, and that that greater being deserves worship. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:47:13 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Shedim: Remnant Question At 09:50 AM 5/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >Then Perception rolls would get the same results as on an unoccupied but >unconscious host, I'd think. Hee hee! "I bet he's an angel - humans can't do that sort of thing." The other looked at the man in question, his gaze penetrating, for several seconds, then shook his head. "Nope. He's just asleep." - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:32:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Save it for a rainy day Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal Question (was: A Demon We All Know) On Thu, 13 May 1999 19:53:01 PDT Perry Lloyd wrote: > Which reminds me, does the creation of ethereal beings require belief that > the ethereals are *real*? For instance the little people are believed to be > real in certain parts of the globe, but Batman is widely known to be a > fictional character. Yet, Batman is a fictional character who have been > granted substantial life and breath, depth and autonomy. Might there not be > a Batman out there in the Marches, despite the knowledge that Batman is > merely a fiction character? Supergirl exists in my campaign world (unfortunately a world without players) so I'd imagine Mr Wayne (soldier of Laurence perhaps?) could appear sometime. Starsurfer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:28:24 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) > > He went on to talk about evidence and how Christianity didn't really >have > > much. He rejected my arguements that (a) it's sprung a world-wide >religion > > (not so much in the East, of course) and that (b) many people *have* >felt > > moved by the Holy Spirit. > >Well, a) is quite problematic, IMO, since there are several contradictory, >world-wide religions. Feeling moved by the Holy Spirit also doesn't get >close to being evidence for Christianity, God, or even the Holy Spirit >itself - people have felt moved by the spirit of Napoleon Bonaparte, which >hardly makes a (hypthetical, I hope) religion based around him true. Ha ha ha, touche. :) However, when a large group of people feel moved by something which they all call the Holy Spirit, that gives that thing which they call the Holy Spirit more validity. If American culture were to reject a major scientific theory, it would less believed and therefore by given less validity. It's all what the culture, or sub-culture, believes to be true. Truth is relative, AFAIK. > > So, in conclusion, people will only believe what they want to believe. >I > > find the human mind so pathetically maladapt at useful change. Even in >the > > face of a Holy Presence, those who are not willing to believe will see > > nothing. > >Well, how do you define "useful change"? A change which engables the organism to become more fuctional, better able to reproduce and rear its offspring to do the same. Those of us who don't believe in >holy presences will say that people who are willing to believe will see >something even if there is nothing there. *shrugs* I disagree. Haven't you ever gone to a place that someone else has found to be truly beautiful and wonderous and found yourself wondering what they found to be so incredible about the place? "It's only a church." "It's only a desert." "It's only a bunch of trees." Is this off topic? Well, In Nomine deals with religious topics and while this may not reflect game *mechanics* the feelings of Holy/Unholy presence (IMHO) should certainly be part of game *atmosphere*. >Trying to bring this back on the topic of this list: what kind of >reactions would percieving the celestial forms of different Choirs inspire >in humans? Kyriotates would definitely be scary, as would Seraphim, >Ofanim, Malakim and quite possibly Cherubim. The only ones that look >"nice" are Mercurians - Elohim look a bit like Greys, I suppose... could >be scary or not, depending on if you believe you've been abducted or not. >:) Oh, that would suck. Elohite: "I'm an angel." [takes celestial form] Abductee: "AHHHHHHHH!!!" [paralyzed in fear] - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:33:45 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) >Oooh! Evil idea! Let's say Jesus wasn't part of the Divine Plan, but >"only" a Jewish guy who had some cool ideas and gathered a bunch of >followers. Not a Soldier, not an Angel (or Demon), not Eli in disguise, >not the Son of God... just an ordinary guy. But people believe in him. A >lot. A whole bunch of 'em. A -really- big bunch. Millions. Hundreds of >millions. Definitely more than the Aesir ever had. > >So one day this bearded guy strolls out of the Marches and knocks on the >Pearly Gates... I'd say that's perfect. Jesus, Mary, Mohammad (sp?) haven't really been touched on as being Saints, nor have many of the saints for that matter. Which means that if they're not in Heaven yet so many people believe in them, they're most definitely in The Marches. Heh heh... Cult of Jesus, baby. Laurence better go smack it down 'lest that pesky Ethereal Jesus gets too pig-headed. Hell, with all the fish and crucifixed and crosses over the U.S. alone just imagine how much Essence good 'ole J.C. is raking in, let alone his pals "Holy Ghost" and "Holy Spirit" and his mother Mary. Oh, Uriel, where are you when we need you? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:35:17 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) >-----Original Message----- >From: Anders Gabrielsson > > > >Elohim look a bit like Greys, I suppose... could > >be scary or not, depending on if you believe you've been abducted or not. > >Hmmmm, maybe all those stories of alien abductions are actually based on >peoples' memories of encountering Elohim in the Marches? Elohim who strap them down and perform painful experiments on them that leave scars in the real world as well as bits of metal in their body? Nightmares maybe. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:24:45 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) From: Perry Lloyd > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Anders Gabrielsson >> >> >Elohim look a bit like Greys, I suppose... could >> >be scary or not, depending on if you believe you've been abducted or not. >> >>Hmmmm, maybe all those stories of alien abductions are actually based on >>peoples' memories of encountering Elohim in the Marches? > >Elohim who strap them down and perform painful experiments on them that >leave scars in the real world as well as bits of metal in their body? >Nightmares maybe. That occurred to me only after I had sent my initial response. That's why now I think it's Haballites that are responsible. (They're probably also responsible for the fact that I can never remember how to spell their Band name, too, for that matter...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:36:02 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Loose Canons We often hear, on the list, of various additions and departures people make to canonical IN. I'm interested, and I think others would be as well, in hearing about this a little more systematically. Could the GMs and GM-wannabe's on the list post their variations and additions to canon, everything in one message, instead of mentioning the variations individually under various threads? Thanks. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:04:17 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Hey, Elizabeth: About that IN Survey Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >At 11:18 AM -0400 5/13/99, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >>The latest edition of the Daily Illuminator says that the results of the In >>Nomine players poll have been tabulated. Any chance of posting the results >>to the list? After all, I'd like to know what the final breakdown was...and >>maybe get a jump on the chance to query the wish-list. :) > >Well, if people _want_ the full results -- I don't see why not. They're >anon. [...] And yes, I was startled too. This list is *weird*; I always thought that historicals sold poorly. >Name Yes Maybe No No Response >Pre-Columbus North America 298 259 53 43 I am not sure what the point of an angels-and-demons game is, in a setting where none of the inhabitants know anything about Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. The *only* way I can make this work in my head is to turn this into In Nomine Mormon Myth. Of course, put that way it's a premise offensive enough to be worth doing. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:30:56 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Hey, Elizabeth: About that IN Survey >From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > >At 11:18 AM -0400 5/13/99, Jason Schneiderman wrote: > >>The latest edition of the Daily Illuminator says that the results of the >In > >>Nomine players poll have been tabulated. Any chance of posting the >results > >>to the list? After all, I'd like to know what the final breakdown >was...and > >>maybe get a jump on the chance to query the wish-list. :) > > > >Well, if people _want_ the full results -- I don't see why not. They're > >anon. [...] And yes, I was startled too. > >This list is *weird*; I always thought that historicals sold poorly. > > >Name Yes Maybe No No Response > >Pre-Columbus North America 298 259 53 43 > >I am not sure what the point of an angels-and-demons game is, in >a setting where none of the inhabitants know anything about >Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. The *only* way I can make this work >in my head is to turn this into In Nomine Mormon Myth. > >Of course, put that way it's a premise offensive enough to be worth >doing. :) I view it as an excellent way to play In Nomine, from the point of view of Ethereal Deities. Yes, Uriel's crusade "purged" the Marches. Funny how the Native American's didn't loose their religion till the Europeans came over and destroyed them . . . Perhaps Uriel's crusade was not a single episode in Earth's History, but one in Heaven's. Therefore 745 A.D. on Earth in Rome might also be 15th - 16th century in North America. Remember how time flows differently for Heaven and Earth? Anyway, pre-columbus North America, IMC, would see an entire host of powerful Ethereal deities. The PCs would be lesser deities, spirits, or shamans. Powerful deities (sp?) might wield as much power as an AA or DP at this time in History. Hell, I'd *love* some "canon" stats on Coyote, Bear, etc . . . - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 07:34:03 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > Seriously, I think Elvis, along with some other mythified real or > imaginary people could be etherealized (cool word, huh?:). I'm working (slowly) on an IN adventure now that features Elvis in a central role. It also features the Fisher King, Elvis impersonators, Hunter S. Thompson's "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" and whatever I can dredge up about American roadside attractions. There's a reason why no-one ever pays for my adventure ideas... (Check the INC for "The Dumas Club", my ideas about running a campaign based on playing fictional characters that come to life in the Marches.) - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Journalism is not a profession or a trade. It is a cheap catch-all for fuckoffs & misfits - a false doorway to the backside of life, a filthy piss-ridden little hole nailed off by the building inspector, but just deep enough for a wino to curl up from the sidewalk and masturbate like a chimp in a zoo-cage. HUNTER S. THOMPSON, "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 23:40:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) On Fri, 14 May 1999, Perry Lloyd wrote: > > > He went on to talk about evidence and how Christianity didn't really > >have > > > much. He rejected my arguements that (a) it's sprung a world-wide > >religion > > > (not so much in the East, of course) and that (b) many people *have* > >felt > > > moved by the Holy Spirit. > > > >Well, a) is quite problematic, IMO, since there are several contradictory, > >world-wide religions. Feeling moved by the Holy Spirit also doesn't get > >close to being evidence for Christianity, God, or even the Holy Spirit > >itself - people have felt moved by the spirit of Napoleon Bonaparte, which > >hardly makes a (hypthetical, I hope) religion based around him true. > > Ha ha ha, touche. :) However, when a large group of people feel moved by > something which they all call the Holy Spirit, that gives that thing which > they call the Holy Spirit more validity. Validity in what sense? If you mean credibility, then yes, of course. If you mean valid as in being actually true, then no, of course not. What people believe to be true and what is actually true can be (usually are, if you're cynical) two very different things. > If American culture were to reject a major scientific theory, it would less > believed and therefore by given less validity. It's all what the culture, > or sub-culture, believes to be true. Truth is relative, AFAIK. Which has nothing to do with actual, capital-T Truth. Claiming that the Holy Spirit actually exists is an assertion about reality, not about what people believe about reality. That something is widely believed doesn't make it more or less True. Little-t truth, on the other hand, is all about what people believe. > > > So, in conclusion, people will only believe what they want to believe. > >I > > > find the human mind so pathetically maladapt at useful change. Even in > >the > > > face of a Holy Presence, those who are not willing to believe will see > > > nothing. > > > >Well, how do you define "useful change"? > > A change which engables the organism to become more fuctional, better able > to reproduce and rear its offspring to do the same. Well, IMO those who believe themselves to be facing a Holy Presence are not very well adapted, but YMM (and obviously does) V. :) > Those of us who don't believe in > >holy presences will say that people who are willing to believe will see > >something even if there is nothing there. *shrugs* > > I disagree. Haven't you ever gone to a place that someone else has found to > be truly beautiful and wonderous and found yourself wondering what they > found to be so incredible about the place? > > "It's only a church." > "It's only a desert." > "It's only a bunch of trees." I'm afraid I have no idea what you're getting at here, or what it has to do with what I said. I think the human mind is incredibly well adapted to believing what it finds nice or comfortable, whether that means belief or unbelief in God, the Holy Spirit, the Buddha, animistic spirits, the Age of Aquarius, Eris, the Easter Bunny or Invisible Pink Unicorns. Believing what's comfortable, what makes your life easier, is much, much easier than believing what's uncomfortable or problematic. People just have very different views of what it is that's comfortable. > Is this off topic? Well, In Nomine deals with religious topics and while > this may not reflect game *mechanics* the feelings of Holy/Unholy presence > (IMHO) should certainly be part of game *atmosphere*. How it is in the game is definitely on-topic. How it works (if it does;) in the Real World (TM) is off-topic, IMO. > >Trying to bring this back on the topic of this list: what kind of > >reactions would percieving the celestial forms of different Choirs inspire > >in humans? Kyriotates would definitely be scary, as would Seraphim, > >Ofanim, Malakim and quite possibly Cherubim. The only ones that look > >"nice" are Mercurians - Elohim look a bit like Greys, I suppose... could > >be scary or not, depending on if you believe you've been abducted or not. > >:) > > Oh, that would suck. > > Elohite: "I'm an angel." [takes celestial form] > Abductee: "AHHHHHHHH!!!" [paralyzed in fear] Heh. In a game I played in (one of the very few IN games I've played, sad to say) we were supposed to convince a scientist who had been led astray by a Shedite possessing his wife that he should turn back to the straight and narrow, in essence making him a Soldier. They were holding some kind of ceremony that was going to seal his Fate, so to speak, and our plan was for me, the Mercurian, to show up in celestial form and give him the big Talk about how he had been tricked and so on. I did, and the Shedite also went celestial... so my friends the Seraph and the Bright Lilim barged in to help me fight him. That poor scientist was scared out of his wits. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 99 16:54:40 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Hey, Elizabeth: About that IN Survey >> >Name Yes Maybe No No Response >> >Pre-Columbus North America 298 259 53 43 >> >>I am not sure what the point of an angels-and-demons game is, in >>a setting where none of the inhabitants know anything about >>Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. The *only* way I can make this work >>in my head is to turn this into In Nomine Mormon Myth. >> >>I view it as an excellent way to play In Nomine, from the point of view of >Ethereal Deities. Yes, Uriel's crusade "purged" the Marches. Funny how the >Native American's didn't loose their religion till the Europeans came over >and destroyed them . . . Actually, I thought it was established that angels and demons did not depend on Judaeism/Christianity/Moslem to be present to work in a given area. Redneck Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... but his sig hasn't -- redneck@detnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:13:46 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Our spies report that on 04:57 PM 5/14/99 +0200, Anders Gabrielsson said: >On Fri, 14 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >So one day this bearded guy strolls out of the Marches and knocks on the >Pearly Gates... > >Anders Gabrielsson At which point Marc leans over and shouts, "I don't think he'll be too keen! We've already got one, you see!"... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:25:04 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) Our spies report that on 05:11 PM 5/14/99 +0200, Anders Gabrielsson said: >On Fri, 14 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > >> From: Anders Gabrielsson >> >> >Elohim look a bit like Greys, I suppose... could >> >be scary or not, depending on if you believe you've been abducted or not. >> >> Hmmmm, maybe all those stories of alien abductions are actually based on >> peoples' memories of encountering Elohim in the Marches? > >That's a credible in-world explanation, I think. Or maybe there is a group >of Elohim working for Jean (or some other suitable AA) who are examining >humans for infernal influences in a more, ah, physical way. :) > >Anders Gabrielsson Now I have to tell the story. The story of a group of demons who were characters in the local In Nomine tournament a few conventions running. The premise of it all was that there had been highly trained group of demons with a real working flying saucer. They abducted people to ruin their lives and credibility, pushing them towards their Fates and just generally being cruel. They were well-trained and competent. And they had a REAL flying saucer. You weren't them. They made a mistake and tried to abduct a pickup truck full of good ol' boys who turned out to be Malakim purely by accident. You were the hastily recruited replacements. A Balseraph of Andre who already had good skills with an anal probe(and an..unusual numinous corpus). An Impudite of Media to run the light show, since the real flying saucer was lost when the Malakim got upset. A Shedite of Dark Humour with a distinction who was mostly an observer, but also provided that odd, disjoined experience many abductees report. Slap Gray vessels on everyone, stick them in a helicopter with some theatrical lights and send them off. Of course, when Nybbas slapped the relevant knowledge for this job on you, he was in kind of a hurry and might have ripped out your old skills, identity and knowledge... So no one was really COMPETENT. It was a very fun game, so much so that the next few games involving those characters attracted repeat players, including two new converts who had never played before! But to this day I remember helping the GM make those characters. "Is Anal Probe based off strength or precision?" "I don't know. Maybe there are two versions of the skill." I'd give actual details of what we did, but it was rather demonic and I don't want to ruin anyone's lunch. The mileage gotten from the Balseraph of Lust attunement alone was...sickening, yet very impressive. Sean ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1223 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.