From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun May 16 10:54:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20336 for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 10:54:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA23798 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 16 May 1999 10:54:19 -0500 Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 10:54:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199905161554.KAA23798@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1225 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, May 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1225 In this digest: Re: IN> Loose Canons (Perry's) Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) IN> Angelic Player's Guide Re: IN> Hey, Elizabeth: About that IN Survey Re: IN> Hey, Elizabeth: About that IN Survey IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1221 IN> Re: Holy prescences Re: IN> Re: Holy prescences ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 06:17:52 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Loose Canons (Perry's) >From: Earl Wajenberg > >We often hear, on the list, of various additions and departures >people make to canonical IN. I'm interested, and I think others >would be as well, in hearing about this a little more systematically. > >Could the GMs and GM-wannabe's on the list post their variations >and additions to canon, everything in one message, instead of >mentioning the variations individually under various threads? > >Thanks. > >Earl Here's a little of my game world: (enjoy :) Perry's In Nomine House Non-canon Ruls ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (1) Every Celestial is a God "Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." - Baron Munchausen The Adventures of Baron Munchausen Okay, hold up, I bet you're about to ask how the Hell In Nomine can remain the same game if every Celestial is a God. Well, the Truth is that there're only TWO Celestials who know this fact: Yahweh and Lucifer, and both are Gods. Only thing is, Yahweh is THE GOD and Lucifer is only Second Fiddle. That's why they're at war, see. (Oh, and some Old Gods *may* remember, but, they're not really important, right?) A long time ago, long before Earth was created, there was a council of Gods, or something, and Yahweh was one of them. Anyway, something happened that pissed Yahweh off and so He stomped out of there muttering something about making his own reality to play with. Well, He made it. Kinda. Okay, more technially, he found one, set up camp and took over. See, once upon a time here on Earth there were a whole lot of little gods being worshipped by different peoples all over the globe, Gods like Coyote and Set and Zeus and whatnot. And yes, they were Celestial beings, their natures fueled directly by the Truths which they represented. Then, this young upstart god named Yahweh came in and gathered his own worshippers. Now this new god was smart. He looked over at the other gods and saw where their flaw was: not one of them held enough power to claim all of the Celestial Realm. As one would grow in power, the others woud tear him down in order to maintain the power balance. And so, Yahweh began trying to figure out a way to gather more and more personal power without the others recognizing it and stopping him. It came to Him in a flash: He could make little gods without their own Symphonies, they would have to SHARE HIS. This would enable Him to appear as merely having many servants, but in reality each servant would be a part, an extension of Himself. Yahweh grew and grew in power until the moment came when he had enough power to force the other gods into the Dreamlands, were their power would surely wane. For this god was a jealous god and would have no other gods before Him. "The Lord watches over all who love him, but the wicked he shall destroy." - Psalm 145:20 That time came. Pantheon after Pantheon fell before His wrath. Yahweh, God of War kicked the other Gods into the Dreamlands to be merely afterthoughts compared to his celestial army. His power continued to grow and expand over the globe. Soon, He thought, He could dominate Mankind. And so, in order to understand Mankind, He ordered His angels to serve Mankind and in the meanwhile He created an experiment to test Man's will. He called it Eden. Now, of God's Angels, the small gods who did not fully realize their potential, there was one who was the brightest of them all, Lucifer the Bringer of Light. Lucifer, tall and as proud as His creator, did not wish to serve the humans. They were lower on the chain of existance after all. Lucifer began to build political support among the other Angels for his cause. Soon he realized that he could turn away from his creator, and his creator's Will within him, if he chose. The Lord of all He saw would not be the Lord over him. Yahweh had not anticipated, prepared for, or was willing to believe that part of Himself could rebel against the whole. Worse yet, it spread like a disease, poisoning other parts of Himself and turning them against Him as well. Yahweh investigated this, but only discovered that all would be explained in due time. "So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Dark Helmet Spaceballs The rebellion took place, Lucifer and his armies of angel rose up against their Lord and a terrible war ensued in Heaven; Mankind was tempted into defying the Lord's will as well . . . it was a Dark Day for God. Yahweh, who at this time had grown large enough to allocate Himself more adequately to His parts, kicked Lucifer from His sight through Michael, God's aspect of War. Unfortunately, God had grown fat and Lucifer was out to throw Him into the fire. Rather than flee Yahweh completely, Lucifer commanded his army to carve out a residence in the fallen body of the Metatron, a high ranking angel who had perished in the rebellion. Now, Lucifer's army was in the belly of the beast it called The Enemy and would continue to carve away at God from the inside out. Lucifer spent much time alone, allocating duties to those directly beneath him. It had been only shortly after the Rebellion that he had discovered the ultimate secret. Those who had turned from the light of God could become gods themselves. Being a Celestial with one's own Symphony could allow one to stake claim on local reality and impose one's Will upon it, shaping it as one desired. Yahweh had granted His angels Words, or aspects of Himself. Lucifer, himself a god, was able to grant his devils Words as well by shaping their souls so that they would properly attach to reality and be fueled by it. The Demon Princes he showed how to attune lesser Demons to the Demon Prince's Word. Lucifer's Word is essentially "Antithesis of God", he receives power like any deity, through the activation of that concept in the local reality, in this case Yahweh's Symphony. And since Lucifer had tied to himself a portion of all the power his Demon Princes received, he would continue to grow in power so long as his armies did well. So long as no others discovered their full potential for God-hood . . . "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled, was convincing the world he didn't exist." - The Usual Suspects Lucifer's current goals are to claim and control the local reality which Yahweh has staked claim to. Lucifer must also take over the Marches, but he believes that to be only a matter of time once Yahweh is brought down. Besides, the Old Gods were once Celestials and some may remember the Truth, that all Celestials are Gods, if they have their own Symphonies. The Old Gods still retain some of their power; belief in them still fuels them as it does all dream spirits. Rumors are that in the realms of the Dreamlands which God, through Uriel, was unable to conquer, the horrific dreams of God and Lucifer are beginning to take a more solid and dangerous state. Yahweh, on the other hand, in an effort to remain in control over Himself has infused all that He can with His Will, seeking to preserve as much of Himself as He can, as well as watch over as much of what He views as His own as much as possible. Unforunately, this has caused Him to become even more estranged from Himself and He find Himself only able to occassionally speak through Gabriel, his mouthpiece. Yves is a direct manifestation of God's consciousness and self-awareness. Kronos, on the other hand, is Lucifer's creation (unknown to Lucifer). As God became more and more fractured by Lucifer's power, Kronos is a manifestation of Yahweh's Symphony slipping into Lucifer's grasp, perhaps even an aspect of God Himself. Regardless, if Kronos become more powerful than Yves (God's dark half beginning to consume the bright half), then Lucifer's Word will grow in power a hundred-fold. If only Yahweh knew the peril. Or perhaps he doesn't care any longer . . . PCs who are removed from God's Symphony may have opportunity to become deities in their own right. Oh, but I pity the Malakim. See, a demon has a personal Symphony to hold it together, since angels rely on God's Symphony, well, they take a point of Dissonance every fifteen minutes that they're without their Symphony. Once they're reached their Total forces in Discord in each Sphere (if they haven't fallen yet), additional levels of Discord displace a Force, essentially causing the angel to begin to shatter. Not individual soul hits, just whack off that Force, baby. Sucks to be without your spiritual glue. Once a God, Worded Devils gain abilities related to their Word (non-Worded devils obviously do not). Each new God should be shaped by the player and GM. The new god need not be evil, necessarily, but probably won't be particularly good, either. Of course, how does one go from devil to god? That can be an adventure in itself. :) (2) Celestials may travel to earth in Celestial form "Thou shalt not be afraid of the terror by night, nor the arrows that flieth by day, for He will give His angels charge over thee." - Psalm 91 only though Tethers at by the Will of their Superior. Upon leaving the Tether, they have the normal amount of time before manifesting corporeally. Relievers, Imps and Gremlin may remained in celestial form indefinitally, their small number of forces allows them to exist on the corporeal plane without being reject by the Symphony. The fully fledged (angels and demons proper) may remain in Celestial form for another Celestial Forces + CD of Will roll minutes or whatever it is for the cost of 1 Essence. (3) Ethereals may take ethereal form on earth for indefinite periods of time "I will not carve gods" - Bart Simpson Ethereal beings, because of their unique relationship to the corporeal plane (they are sustained by the beliefs and dreams of all life on earth, particularly the humans), are able to journey to the Corporeal plane in their Ethereal form through Ethereal Tethers. To spot an Ethereal requires a simple perception roll by a Celestial or by a fellow Ethereal. Humans, however, do not see the Ethereal unless (a) they are in mind-altered state, such as drunk or high or (b) the Ethereal makes its presence known through use of an appropriate Song or a Soul Link. Because of Heaven's continued persecution of the Ethereals and Hell's continued jealousy, Ethereals rarely go out in places where they might be seen by Celestials. They can be soul killed in Ethereal form, for instance, though they have the edge in staying power, as remaining in Celestial form on Earth is taxing on Angels and Demons. (4) The Ethereals are POWERFUL and the Dreamlands are Infinite in size. "The many truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view." - Ben Kenobi Return of the Jedi Ethereal beings, contrary to what Heaven believes and what Hell says, can be quite powerful. Some of the Fae nobles are up around 15 forces and creatures such as the unicorn and dragon, elf and ogre, which are still dreamed of on earth, have quite a few forces, dragons pushing perhaps 17 and 18 forces, the unicorn hovering about 10, elves and orges and drawfs hovering about 5 to 7 forces. And the Dreamlands are BIG. Be careful where you dream at night. You think Blandine and Beleth know their way around the Dreamlands? No, no, no, they know their way around the *Vale*. You want directions through the Far Marches? Better find an Ethereal guide if you value your soul. There are rumors among the ethereals that another portion of the Celestial plane has been found, a portion which is not filled with Angels or Demons and its only a matter of time before the Old Gods discover how to become Celestial beings again . . . (5) Humans are important "And the Lord was very sorry that he made humankind on the earth, and it grieved his heart." - Genesis 6:6 Humans, I say, should be the focus of adventures. Who grants the Ethereals their power? Who fuels the Words of the Demons and Angels? That would be the humans, mostly. Sure, plants do some, animals more, but its the human souls that Hell wants. Human souls are Essence, Essence that can be put to use battling God. Sway the masses and you swell your Prince's word. Better, corrupt a do-gooder and you rob The Enemy of yet another soul! Or, alternatively, rescue a damned soul and score one for the Big Guy! And, here's the cool part: Destiny and Fate. "Fate sucks. I swear." - Drugstore Cowboy Technically, every human soul has one of each, but some have a powerful Destiny, a powerful Fate or both. Most have neither. Find one of these souls and help it find its future and you might just win yourself a title. I consider it to be a noble player who will play a human, take the lower target numbers, fewer forces, and still dish it out with the celestials. Power to ya, man. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Turn it off, man! Turn it off! It's sucking my will to live!" - Garth Wayne's Word _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:51:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Holy presences (going OT) On Sat, 15 May 1999, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >From: Anders Gabrielsson > > > > >Validity in what sense? If you mean credibility, then yes, of course. > >If > > > >you mean valid as in being actually true, then no, of course not. > > > > > > However, AFAIK perception = reality (credit to Ben Aldred), therefore > >truth > > > is in the eye of the beholder. Therefore credibility > > > (believablity/reliability) and validity (well-grounded in principles or > > > evidence/having legal force) both arise from cultural norms. > > > >That would be an extremely solipsist viewpoint, I think. > > solipism 1. the theory that the self can be aware of nothing but its own > experiences and states 2. the theory that nothing exists or is real but the > self > > I agree that what I am saying agrees with the first definition of solipism, > but it is wholly contrary to the second definition. Understanding of one's > experiences comes heavily from shared explanations and understanding of > reality. I guess I used the term sloppily. My bad. Anyway, when you say "perception = reality" you mean "perception = internal reality", right? > You have to make > >the distinction between internal reality (how you see the world) and > >external reality (that thing outside your mind). Whether you believe in > >external reality or not is of course dependant upon your internal reality, > >but most of us think it exists (which is not to say it does). > > By external I assume you mean "objective", that which exists without the > self necessarily being aware of it. Yes. > >Unfortunately, most people also believe external reality conforms with > >their internal reality. > > I would say that it is actually a fortunate thing! How unfortunate it would > be for humankind to NOT believe that external reality conformed to their > understanding of it! You misunderstand. I meant that people form opinions inside their heads and then think they are True (as opposed to true); that they have universal validity. Actually, I'm quite certain that the external, True reality is quite different from how I percieve and understand it. > It is also a good thing, IMHO that people are able to maintain an internal > reality which can be quite different from external reality. In some this > manifests as optimism, in others negativity, others appear to be insane, > others ... are just weird. This inner stability allows us to function. The > problems crop up when people need to change their > interpretation/understanding of reality in order to flourish and they fail > to do so, and end up shooting themselves in the foot. :) I think we're talking past each other here, but I'm not quite sure how. I mean that people think that their view of the world is how it actually is - - black people are lazy wellfare leeches, Christians are brainwashed zombies, They are bad people while We are good, and so on. > > > Example: Henry is shot by a gun, however no one he talks to believes > >that > > > guns exist. They attribute his wound (and misfortune) to an evil > >spirit. > > > In time, Henry may begin to believe what he is being told. Thus, as his > > > perception of what happened changes, what happened changes. He wasn't > >shot > > > by a gun he may tell you, he was harmed by an evil spirit. > > > >But the Truth is that he was shot by a gun, right? Whether he believes it > >or not, that's what happened. > > The Truth according to whom? The Truth just is, what we choose to label the > componants (sp?) of the Truth is subjective. A gun to one, a Colt .45 to > another, a boomstick to another, a unholy weapon to another. The object may > remain the same, but the name can change. Now you misunderstand again. The Truth is of course impossible to describe in words, but something actually happened. The thing that happened, which I will label "Henry got shot with a gun" is the Truth. What people think happened belong to their personal, little-t truths. They may or may not believe that their truths are the Truth. > And, unless we have a Seraph around who rolls CD 6 often, we don't have a > single being who could witness the event without a subjective understanding > of it (the Elohite, without access to the Truth as the Seraph is, is trapped > in the eternal paradox: seeking pure objectivity without the tools to be > purely objective). The mind is not a camera, it doesn't just record; in > order to store the memory it must make sense of the sensory information it > is receiving (so far as I can tell). Yes, of course. > And society would thus wish to push you out of its sight, you would be the > fly in the ointment so to speak. How lonely it must be to be a Balseraph > with strange beliefs . . . Is there any other kind? :) > In the *canonical* version of the game there is objective Truth. :) Personally, I can't imagine a reality without Truth, because that would mean communication was impossible, and even existance, I think. If you exist, then your existance is part of the Truth, what you think is part of the Truth - if there is no Truth, nothing can exist. Or at least my mind can't grasp such a concept. If you can describe it, please do. :) > >It's already there, mostly evident in the Seraph resonance. > > Not my bent on it. Oh, no. *shrugs* Then we've left the "normal" game far enough behind that there's not much point in discussing it, IMO. > >Research indicates > > > that, overall, regular church-goers tend to live longer and happier > >lives. > > > Of course, those *are* statistics. > > > > At the price of deluding themselves, yes. Also, how > >much time do they spend in church compared to how much longer they live? > >;) > > Delusion? Science is also delusion, mon ami. The beautiful thing about > science is that it cannot ever prove anything, merely fail to disprove! Which is not delusion. Science admits that it can't prove anything, while most religions very much deny that they could be anything but the pure Truth. > "Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." > - Albert Einstein I disagree. *shrugs* > "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled, was convincing the world he > didn't exist." > - The Usual Suspects Actually, that quote is older than the movie. ;) > There is a difference in being religious and being spiritual, though I did > make the two seem awefully similar up above. I agree, spiritually > fulfilling does not necessitate religion, and I attribute the benefits of > religion to any group with a shared cause or belief, in fact mereoy that act > of being part of a group of individuals is tremendously healthy. Yes, people need companionship. But exactly how do you define "cause or belief" here? Would atheism qualify, for example? > >Sure, though I think this has more to do with aesthetics than > >spirituality. That some people find a place to be "charged" doesn't mean > >there really is "something there". > > Which neither you or I could know as we are not Seraphim. Of course. > Have you never been "in the zone", where everything just begins to click? As > though you're not really thinking, but reacting, moving with something that > feels greater than yourself, or is perhaps yourself moving finally as one > whole complete being? No, I don't think so. Why? Sounds like the sort of experience people have at mass rallies. ;) > >Or, to show the other viewpoint, it's only those who delude themselves > >into believing there is anything beyond what we can see and touch who are > >able to allow their minds to trick them into believing there is a > >spiritual presence there. > > See and touch? People have visions and have touched the untouchable, they > have *felt* the presence of ghosts, angels, and ghastly things, felt them as > real as your keyboard beneath your finger tips. Are they mad or merely of a > different opinion? They're definitely of a different opinion, which doesn't invalidate their opinion or mine. IMO, they have deluded themselves - they believe they have been touched/had visions/etc, which may be true in their subjective realities, but that doesn't change my view of objective reality, since that includes the possibility that people can delude themselves. Of course it's possible that I'm wrong - I freely admit it - but in my experience, which is all I can judge from, it's much more probable that they have deluded themselves than that they are correct. > I find it quite objectively possible that there are things out there which > not everyone is able to perceive. So do I, but that doesn't mean I believe each and every story about such experiences, or any specific one of them - or that what people describe is what actually happened, even if something Real did happen. > >I'm not sure if it's conscious or not from your side, but you keep stating > >these things as if they were True, which is debatable, and I find that > >mildly offensive. You should remember that the world isn't divided into > >the two groups "fellow believers" and "the deluded, soon-to-be-converted > >multitudes". ;) > > I speak truth with a little T. :P Well, it's good form to qualify such statements and not state them as if they were True. IMO. ;) And, yes, it is divided into those that > agree with me and those that don't. Simple boolean expression. > So there. Of course I believe myself to know the truth, if I didn't what > kind of spineless toad-eating bastard would I be? An honest one? I don't think I know the Truth. Of course I know my own (little-t) truth - in fact, that's -all- I know. But to claim to know anything for sure about objective reality is a very strong, and totally unverifiable, statement, IMO. > >*shrugs* That's your opinion. My opinion is that the human mind is > >mallable (sp?) enough to delude itself into believing there are things > >"out there" that actually don't exist. > > And I agree with you. The human mind *is* malleable enough to delude itself > into believing that there are things out there that don't exist. Doesn't > mean that there *aren't* a few things out there that do. Of course. But claiming one's own set of delusions (mine, yours, Vasco da Gama's) to be the Truth is dangerous, IMO. > Comparing it to > >being emotionally unsensitive is definitely offensive, and hints of the > >commonly held fallacy that atheism equals immorality and egoism. > > Immorality does not at all equal atheism, if it did then this world would be > in a whole lot of trouble. Egoism? Don't see why it would . . . too many > religious people are ful of themselves. Again, a misunderstanding. Your examples drew parallells between being "spiritually null" and insensitive towards one's lover. I guess I was a little imprecise above - i should have said "implies" or "contains" rather than "equals". Many Christians seem to think that there is no such thing as a moral atheist. *shrugs* > >Anyway, being "spiritually null" isn't a bad thing if there is nothing > >spiritual to be null in relation too, right? > > Ha ha ha . . . too true. It would be like being asfcally null. Uh... asfcally means... what? > >If I did IN the way I see the real world there wouldn't be much point in > >using the game, since I don't believe in God, Heaven, Hell, Angels, > >Demons, Destiny, Fate, or an afterlife, which pretty much kills off all of > >the interesting subjects. :) > > Nonsense! You can have programs of mass hypnosis, drug treatments, or > something like "The Matrix" to explain everything in In Nomine in terms of > "that which has no soul" Who knows? Maybe everyone's been locked inside a > computer and while we have no souls, we are on backup somewhere . . . > Demons and Angels are programs written by the "Mainframe", ethereal spirits > are programs written by the unconscious processes of the human minds stored > in the Mainframe . . . woah. > > What a neat thought. Sounds more like Paranoia to me. *shrugs* Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:47:25 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: IN> Angelic Player's Guide I just recently bought my APG, have only read it once, even only owned it about 3 weeks. now the binding is completely trashed, the cover is falling off and pages are slipping. has anyone else had this problem with the book? is this a somewhat common thing (like it is with Tor novels) or did I just get a bum copy? Dennis H. Groome V -- "Amo Nympham" Web Developer, AN Consulting nallix@bellsouth.net ICQ: 11340261 http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9651 "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" - -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:59:51 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Hey, Elizabeth: About that IN Survey At 2:30 PM -0700 5/14/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) >>Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> > >> >At 11:18 AM -0400 5/13/99, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >> >>The latest edition of the Daily Illuminator says that the >>results of the In >> >>Nomine players poll have been tabulated. Any chance of posting the results >> >>to the list? After all, I'd like to know what the final >>breakdown was...and >> >>maybe get a jump on the chance to query the wish-list. :) >> > >> >Well, if people _want_ the full results -- I don't see why not. They're >> >anon. [...] And yes, I was startled too. >> >>This list is *weird*; I always thought that historicals sold poorly. >> >> >Name Yes Maybe No No Response >> >Pre-Columbus North America 298 259 53 43 >> >>I am not sure what the point of an angels-and-demons game is, in >>a setting where none of the inhabitants know anything about >>Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. The *only* way I can make this work >>in my head is to turn this into In Nomine Mormon Myth. >> >>Of course, put that way it's a premise offensive enough to be worth >>doing. :) > >I view it as an excellent way to play In Nomine, from the point of >view of Ethereal Deities. Yes, Uriel's crusade "purged" the >Marches. Funny how the Native American's didn't loose their >religion till the Europeans came over and destroyed them . . . > >Perhaps Uriel's crusade was not a single episode in Earth's History, >but one in Heaven's. Therefore 745 A.D. on Earth in Rome might also >be 15th - 16th century in North America. Remember how time flows >differently for Heaven and Earth? > >Anyway, pre-columbus North America, IMC, would see an entire host of >powerful Ethereal deities. The PCs would be lesser deities, >spirits, or shamans. Powerful deities (sp?) might wield as much >power as an AA or DP at this time in History. > >Hell, I'd *love* some "canon" stats on Coyote, Bear, etc . . . Oh... even *better.* What sort of Ethereal Spirits are formed in the abscense (largely) of Ethereals and their Words? I've long felt that Ethereals become different when they're truly preeminant. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:05:32 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Hey, Elizabeth: About that IN Survey At 1:59 PM -0400 5/15/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >Oh... even *better.* What sort of Ethereal Spirits are formed in >the abscense (largely) of Ethereals and their Words? I've long felt >that Ethereals become different when they're truly preeminant. > Of course, I mean Celestials and their Words. I chalk it up to little sleep during my formative years. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:14:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Secret Joe Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1221 what is that list??? what is up with the stupid PHONESEX add??? I don't need that at all!!!!!!!! _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 06:03:22 PDT From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Re: Holy prescences > > > > >So one day this bearded guy strolls out of the Marches and knocks on >the > > >Pearly Gates... >So the bearded guy looks around, and sees all the other bearded guys >sitting around outside the Pearly Gates - he sees the Catholic Jesus, the >Orthodox Jesus, the Presbyterian Jesus, all kinds of Jesii - all of them >just loitering, looking rather depressed. "Welcome to the club, kid" one >of them says. Actually, i've been meaning to ask about something tha'ts related to this for a while, but could never actually frame it withouit it sounding stupid, heretical, or just.... boring. I eliminated the first two, so here is the result of the third. What happens to people who claim (and get people believeing) that they are divine/have special powers or whatever (eg.Egyptian Pharohs, Aztec Tlatloani, Chinese and Roman emperors) . Also, what happens to people who live extremely remarkable lives and are later (claimed to be) deified. Does the actual person become an ethereal? Or if still living, do they gain the powers that they supposedly have? (I'm thinking of a scene in a Terry Pratchett book where the hero, a god king who was trained as an assasin, suddenly has plants growing wherever he steps) Please note, I want opinions, not the dreaded hammer of cannon, as i want to hear a variety of opinions. I mean sure give cannon if you want, but this is more about opinions and suggestions. Sorry for rambling, hydrax. "Oh great, now I'm going to be thinking serious thoughts for the rest of the day." Cordelia, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:53:36 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Re: Holy prescences On Sun, 16 May 1999, Hydrax 59 wrote: > What happens to people who claim (and get people believeing) that they are > divine/have special powers or whatever (eg.Egyptian Pharohs, Aztec > Tlatloani, Chinese and Roman emperors) . Also, what happens to people who > live extremely remarkable lives and are later (claimed to be) deified. Does > the actual person become an ethereal? > > Please note, I want opinions, not the dreaded hammer of cannon, as i want to > hear a variety of opinions. I mean sure give cannon if you want, but this is > more about opinions and suggestions. IMC, the ethereal gods fall into three categories: 1) Creatures of human myth, given life by the spark of the Divine that all humans possess. 2) The souls of dead humans who have fled into the Marches in an effort to escape Divine judgement, who have then amassed much power. (That spark of the Divine gives them an edge ofver J. Random Ethereal being.) 3) Outcast Angels and Renegade Demons who set themselves up as gods to gain a new source of essence. Humans who were worshipped as gods before death *may* become ethereal gods of the second category, but this is not guaranteed. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1225 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.