From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu May 27 08:17:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13584 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:17:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id HAA32017 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 27 May 1999 07:57:00 -0500 Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:57:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199905271257.HAA32017@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1238 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, May 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1238 In this digest: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Loose Canons Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Malakim and violent oaths Re: IN> Malakim and violent oaths Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Minimal Spirit Re: IN> Malakim and violent oaths Re: IN> Loose Canons Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) Re: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) Re: IN> Minimal Spirit Re: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) Re: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) Re: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) IN> Changing Vessels IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: Grey Situations (Was Re: IN> Azariel the Habbalakite) Re: IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths Re: IN> Changing Vessels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 05:22:16 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Wed, 26 May 1999, The Alien wrote: [snip] > Good thing for humans that Lilim and Shedim don't get along... heh, good thing for everybody most demons in general don't get along O;-) -=|horsefly|=- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:21:42 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Loose Canons At 12:23 PM -0400 5/22/99, EDG wrote: >At 09:30 AM 5/18/99 +0000, you wrote: > >>Of course relievers can have vessels. That's where familiars come >>from (on the angelic side, anyway). > >This has been bugging me since I read it, but I've only found implied >references to it. > >Is this true? I was under the impression that relievers and Heavenly >familiars were two entirely different types of creature. That's pretty much how I read it, too, with the primary difference between the two being that the Vesseled would be typically higher in Corporeal Forces, and the Vesselless higher in Celestial. - -- ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Jaraith, Shedite Baron of Nightmares, the Demon of NONONOAUUUAARRGGGHHH!!! Triad317@mypad.com | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@flashmail.com | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:53:40 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 2:10 AM -0700 5/26/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Here's a hypothetical situation. Let's say, just for argument's sake, >that a Shedite and a Lilim decide to really put the whammy on a human >important to the Host. Can said Shedite possess the human, find out or >-put- him in a situation that creates a large Need, then have the Lilim >come in and save him and owe her a Geas 5 or 6? I'm wondering since a >Shedite must struggle against the host's will to do evil and, most >importantly, canon states clearly that the host -is- corrupted by the >possession. So, opinions on either finding a need or creating one by the >host's actions? Also, if the Shedite pushes the host to agree to the >'trade', is it still a Geas on the host? > >- Abracax: Shedite of Riots I'd think so. If a Shedite, who *does* have better stats in the body than the human, more than likely, crawls out on a ledge and then abandons the human, that human will suddenly have a very strong Need not to plummet to his death and to be helped off that ledge. Enter: The Lilim. It's Hell -- they don't have to be fair. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:51:02 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and violent oaths Concerning the Malakite of Jordi who heals the semi-squished caterpillar and avenges it -- I'd recommend a species limitation on his animal-avenging. Insects... well, they die like flies. If he concerns himself with insects, being around humans in summer AT ALL is likely to turn this Malakite into a murderous loon, generating Disturbance like a drunken tuba player in the Symphony, and, especially if he keeps bouncing back in new vessels, looking grossly supernatural. And if Jordi backs this kind of behavior, he's going to get pressure from other Archangels, especially the more discreet, paranoid, or pro-human ones: "Hello, Jordi? This is Novalis. Yeah, fine, thanks. Look, you know, I've been thinking -- how about if grass became poisonous to ungulates? Everywhere. Right now. Uh-huh... uh-huh... Then STOP THAT DAMNED MALAKITE OF YOURS *NOW* OR I'LL PERSONALLY KICK YOU UP JACOB'S LADDER TO COMPARE BRUISES WITH URIEL! GOT IT!? Now hold the line. Here's Christopher and Zadkiel." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:13:59 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and violent oaths At 9:51 AM -0500 5/26/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >"Hello, Jordi? This is Novalis. Yeah, fine, thanks. Look, >you know, I've been thinking -- how about if grass became >poisonous to ungulates? Everywhere. Right now. Uh-huh... >uh-huh... Then STOP THAT DAMNED MALAKITE OF YOURS *NOW* OR >I'LL PERSONALLY KICK YOU UP JACOB'S LADDER TO COMPARE BRUISES >WITH URIEL! GOT IT!? Now hold the line. Here's Christopher >and Zadkiel." Do *not* taunt Happy Fun Novalis. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:33:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 2:10 AM -0700 5/26/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Here's a hypothetical situation. Let's say, just for argument's sake, >that a Shedite and a Lilim decide to really put the whammy on a human >important to the Host. Can said Shedite possess the human, find out or >-put- him in a situation that creates a large Need, then have the Lilim >come in and save him and owe her a Geas 5 or 6? Yup. But the Lilim has to see _that_ Need, which is going to require eye-contact (I'd rule, of the _un_possessed human), and a resonance roll with a -2 or worse to the target number. (See the Infernal Player's Guide for the Expanded Resonance Rules for Lilim.) Even if you think she can get human needs while the Shedite is in there, no Lilim will willingly resonate a Shedite after the first time they do, I generally figure. ("It needs _WHAT?_" *barf*) >Also, if the Shedite pushes the host to agree to the >'trade', is it still a Geas on the host? That, I'd say no. It would be the _Shedite_ agreeing, not the host. So any Geas would be on the _Shedite_. (Which some Lilim might use to get a Geas on an unwary Shedite!) Also remember that Lilim think Shedim are disgusting -- they're not likely to come up with this little scheme on their own, since the Lilim is going to be trying not to barf thinking of slimy Shedim. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 07:42:41 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) On Wed, 26 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [snip] > Even if you think she can get human needs while the Shedite is in > there, no Lilim will willingly resonate a Shedite after the first time > they do, I generally figure. ("It needs _WHAT?_" *barf*) this reminds me: i have no problem with Shedim as portrayed as slimy and disgusting, nor with Lilim aversion to Shedim, but are Lilim adverse to resonating or in general hanging around other demons? is there a choir or more that Lilim don't feel comfortable resonating (the hanging around part is... obvious )? [more snippage] > Also remember that Lilim think Shedim are disgusting -- they're not > likely to come up with this little scheme on their own, since the > Lilim is going to be trying not to barf thinking of slimy Shedim. point two: why are Lilim so weak-willed? or am i getting the wrong impression here, and *anyone* would be disgusted by what they saw in a Shedite's mind/soul? -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:43:20 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 10:33 AM 5/26/99 -0400, you wrote: >Even if you think she can get human needs while the Shedite is in >there, no Lilim will willingly resonate a Shedite after the first time >they do, I generally figure. ("It needs _WHAT?_" *barf*) *grins* Is "Get rid of this Shedite" a valid Need? If so, what level? >:) >That, I'd say no. It would be the _Shedite_ agreeing, not the host. So >any Geas would be on the _Shedite_. (Which some Lilim might use to get >a Geas on an unwary Shedite!) Even if the Shedite is just prompting the host ("You know you need it"s and tentacle kisses)? - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:41:24 +0100 From: hjalkar@redbrick.dcu.ie (Kevin Walsh) Subject: Re: IN> Minimal Spirit On Mon, May 24, 1999 at 01:30:13PM -0400, Walter Milliken wrote: > Good point. I'd argue that you could interpret this another way -- that > the Symphony objects to the sudden destruction of corporeal matter, but > then *creating* matter (switching from cel. form into a vessel) ought to make > noise, and it doesn't (as far as I recall). > Here it should be noted that the Corporeal Song of Healing creates disturbance. > In fact, I think this is simply a case of game balance driving world physics: > cel. form is too useful, so it needed a deterrent. Switching back is less > of a balance problem. > I happen to think of them as the same thing. If going celestial disturbs the Symphony, going from Celestial to corporeal should also disturb the Symphony, and to roughly the same degree. I feel especially strongly about this given that changing Vessels causes disturbance. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "It is an impressive thing to hear a helpless woman damned in every item of her life, every corner of her soul. For good reason, no one accused by the Temple has ever been found innocent." Ser Visal's Tale, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:47:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and violent oaths On Wed, 26 May 1999, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Concerning the Malakite of Jordi who heals the semi-squished > caterpillar and avenges it -- > > I'd recommend a species limitation on his animal-avenging. > Insects... well, they die like flies. If he concerns himself > with insects, being around humans in summer AT ALL is likely > to turn this Malakite into a murderous loon, generating > Disturbance like a drunken tuba player in the Symphony, and, > especially if he keeps bouncing back in new vessels, looking > grossly supernatural. A species limitation won't be necessary if there's an "intentional cruelty" clause in there - going after kids who pull wings off flies should be quite alright, IMO, even if you don't want him killing each and every human who slaps a mosquito. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:54:24 +0100 From: hjalkar@redbrick.dcu.ie (Kevin Walsh) Subject: Re: IN> Loose Canons On Wed, May 26, 1999 at 08:21:42AM -0400, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > >Is this true? I was under the impression that relievers and Heavenly > >familiars were two entirely different types of creature. > > That's pretty much how I read it, too, with the primary difference > between the two being that the Vesseled would be typically higher in > Corporeal Forces, and the Vesselless higher in Celestial. I assumed that any implied difference between a reliever and a heavenly familiar was due to bad writing, given the explicit statement that infernal familiars were imps or gremlins with vessels. (Or to be slightly more accurate, I believe familiars to be a subset of vesseled relievers.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "It is an impressive thing to hear a helpless woman damned in every item of her life, every corner of her soul. For good reason, no one accused by the Temple has ever been found innocent." Ser Visal's Tale, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:17:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 10:43 AM -0400 5/26/99, EDG wrote: >At 10:33 AM 5/26/99 -0400, you wrote: > >>Even if you think she can get human needs while the Shedite is in >>there, no Lilim will willingly resonate a Shedite after the first time >>they do, I generally figure. ("It needs _WHAT?_" *barf*) > >*grins* Is "Get rid of this Shedite" a valid Need? If so, what level? >:) Maybe! And probably however long it would take for the human to make the Will roll to resist enough times that the Shedite left... >>That, I'd say no. It would be the _Shedite_ agreeing, not the host. So >>any Geas would be on the _Shedite_. (Which some Lilim might use to get >>a Geas on an unwary Shedite!) > >Even if the Shedite is just prompting the host ("You know you need it"s and >tentacle kisses)? Yup. The Shedite is the one in control, the Shedite is the one saying, "Agree, agree." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:16:30 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) Oh, right -- I'm venturing into not entirely canon grounds at the moment. At 7:42 AM -0700 5/26/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Wed, 26 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > [snip] >> Even if you think she can get human needs while the Shedite is in >> there, no Lilim will willingly resonate a Shedite after the first time >> they do, I generally figure. ("It needs _WHAT?_" *barf*) > this reminds me: i have no problem with Shedim as portrayed as >slimy and disgusting, nor with Lilim aversion to Shedim, but are Lilim >adverse to resonating or in general hanging around other demons? It probably depends on the demon in question. Some, yeah, they wouldn't want to resonate. Others, like Djinn, are usually "safe" and even useful -- a Djinn, deep down, needs to be pampered and petted without having to care for the one doing the pampering. Hook-city. >is there >a choir or more that Lilim don't feel comfortable resonating (the hanging >around part is... obvious )? Well, Malakim generally Need to slay evil, so I'd think that Lilim aren't fond of resonating them. ("He needs to kill me, chop that axe into my vessel again and again and again...") > [more snippage] >> Also remember that Lilim think Shedim are disgusting -- they're not >> likely to come up with this little scheme on their own, since the >> Lilim is going to be trying not to barf thinking of slimy Shedim. > point two: why are Lilim so weak-willed? or am i getting the >wrong impression here, and *anyone* would be disgusted by what they saw in >a Shedite's mind/soul? Elohim are probably equally revolted, but they're strong . . . um, right. Other Choirs (and Habbalah) are less likely to get the nice detailed visions of what the Shedite _wants_, on a casual use of resonance. They get what the Shedite _has done_, more often, not what it'd like to do. Basically, if you could see what Shedim needed to do -- and these are the beings who ride around in humans and make the humans do more and more appalling things -- you'd be mildly ill too. Yeah, some Lilim could probably take it, but most of them are revolted. (And some Shedim may be less revolting than others -- Gamesters, for instance, aren't always having to think about what new thing they Need to make the host do.) You can go more places with this if you assume that Lilim have an instinct (learned or not) to complete the "Read the Need, fulfill the Need, get the hook" cycle. So they read the Need, start automatically thinking about how to fulfill it, and then get revolted. This also makes it possible for the "Lilim-trap" or "angel-trap" to exist (as it does in our campaign) -- the Lilim resonates an angel, and sees a Need for her to redeem, or at least understand the angelic mindset. Automatically, she starts thinking, "fulfill the Need, get the hook . . . HEY! IF I FULFILL THIS NEED, I WON'T _WANT_ THE HOOK!!" Which probably freaks out Lilim. "I could get a year-Geas on an angel... nonono, don't go there! But it's a year! No! You'd just give it back!" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:22:43 +0100 From: hjalkar@redbrick.dcu.ie (Kevin Walsh) Subject: Re: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) On Wed, May 26, 1999 at 11:16:30AM -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > could probably take it, but most of them are revolted. (And some Shedim > may be less revolting than others -- Gamesters, for instance, aren't > always having to think about what new thing they Need to make the host > do.) > Just all the other revolting needs a Gamester is likely to have. (Power is, I think, rather more likely to corrupt demons than anyone else, and being a Gamester is a great deal of power.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "It is an impressive thing to hear a helpless woman damned in every item of her life, every corner of her soul. For good reason, no one accused by the Temple has ever been found innocent." Ser Visal's Tale, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:34:11 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Minimal Spirit At 10:41 -0400 5/26/99, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Mon, May 24, 1999 at 01:30:13PM -0400, Walter Milliken wrote: >> Good point. I'd argue that you could interpret this another way -- that >> the Symphony objects to the sudden destruction of corporeal matter, but >> then *creating* matter (switching from cel. form into a vessel) ought to make >> noise, and it doesn't (as far as I recall). >> >Here it should be noted that the Corporeal Song of Healing creates >disturbance. True. Canon isn't entirely consistent on what really should and shouldn't cause disturbance. *sigh* >I happen to think of them as the same thing. If going celestial disturbs >the Symphony, going from Celestial to corporeal should also disturb the >Symphony, and to roughly the same degree. I feel especially strongly about >this given that changing Vessels causes disturbance. The vessel-changing disturbance is predicated on being celestial, sort of, in the middle of the change, as I recall the discussion that led to that ruling. On the other hand, Malakim of David, Ofanim of Lightning, and maybe some others have attunements that allow form-changes that cause no disturbance. (Jean's Ofanim only cause disturbance for the collateral electrical damage.) It would be nice if there were a consistent set of meta-rules for how disturbance works. I sometimes get the impression that disturbance was tacked on as a game-balance mechanism without being terribly consistent about it. God may be ineffible, but the mechanics of the universe shouldn't be, at least to the GM. David, is there anything in the GMG that clarifies this? Not that I'd expect it to be possible to make a coherent story out of what does and doesn't disturb the Symphony.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:48:42 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) At 11:16 -0400 5/26/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> this reminds me: i have no problem with Shedim as portrayed as >>slimy and disgusting, nor with Lilim aversion to Shedim, but are Lilim >>adverse to resonating or in general hanging around other demons? > >It probably depends on the demon in question. Some, yeah, they wouldn't >want to resonate. I suspect Habbalah are fairly bad, too. And I doubt many Lilim find the needs of any demon of Death very entertaining, though they may not be revolted by them. >> point two: why are Lilim so weak-willed? or am i getting the >>wrong impression here, and *anyone* would be disgusted by what they saw in >>a Shedite's mind/soul? > >Elohim are probably equally revolted, but they're strong . . . um, right. >Other Choirs (and Habbalah) are less likely to get the nice detailed >visions of what the Shedite _wants_, on a casual use of resonance. Habbalah are the only other demons who'd read information from the Shedite's mind, and I suspect they'd be fairly revolted by the general emotional context there. I'd think it would trigger their "punish" reflex. Though some of them may get into punishing *humans* by having Shedim toy with them -- it probably depends on the particular slant of the Habbalite's delusions. >This also makes it possible for the "Lilim-trap" or "angel-trap" to >exist (as it does in our campaign) -- the Lilim resonates an angel, >and sees a Need for her to redeem, or at least understand the angelic >mindset. Needless to say, this isn't automatic with all angels, just the more tolerant ones, and only with a half-way tolerable Lilim. You can also get it in a few over-the-top idealistic ones who think Lilim are easy redemption targets. In my campaign, these would mostly be among Novalis' angels, and not even close to a majority of those. (They may be "fluffy", but they're not stupid.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:15:25 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) At 11:22 -0400 5/26/99, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Wed, May 26, 1999 at 11:16:30AM -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> could probably take it, but most of them are revolted. (And some Shedim >> may be less revolting than others -- Gamesters, for instance, aren't >> always having to think about what new thing they Need to make the host >> do.) >> >Just all the other revolting needs a Gamester is likely to have. (Power >is, I think, rather more likely to corrupt demons than anyone else, and >being a Gamester is a great deal of power.) Yeah, but *all* demons are like that. It's just that some are better -- or luckier -- at attaining power over others. I don't think Lilim would find Gamesters particularly revolting from that point of view, it's *normal*, at least for the other Bands. However, the fact that Gamesters *exercise* that power (most notably on said Lilim) makes them decidedly more annoying.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:35:51 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim In a message dated 5/26/99 4:10:48 AM Central Daylight Time, steelangel@cruzers.com writes: << Here's a hypothetical situation. Let's say, just for argument's sake, that a Shedite and a Lilim decide to really put the whammy on a human important to the Host. Can said Shedite possess the human, find out or -put- him in a situation that creates a large Need, then have the Lilim come in and save him and owe her a Geas 5 or 6? I'm wondering since a Shedite must struggle against the host's will to do evil and, most importantly, canon states clearly that the host -is- corrupted by the possession. So, opinions on either finding a need or creating one by the host's actions? Also, if the Shedite pushes the host to agree to the 'trade', is it still a Geas on the host? - Abracax: Shedite of Riots >> Ooh, very evil. I applaud you. And yes, I'm fairly sure that the Lilim can collect Geases for Needs that she has created. I think it says so in one of the books. So it doesn't matter if she created the Need by herself or with a little help. It sounds perfectly plausible, except that Lilim generally can't stand Shedim. Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:01:06 -0400 From: Hilary Hayes Subject: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) >point two: why are Lilim so weak-willed?< Because their resonance works on Perception. Or is that only true of PC's ? Hilary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:32:09 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Lilim resonating others (was Shedim and Lilim) On Wed, 26 May 1999, Hilary Hayes wrote: i querried: > >point two: why are Lilim so weak-willed?< > Because their resonance works on Perception. Or is that only true of > PC's ? okay, okay, i asked for that one.... answer: the entire band, not just Lilim PCs. thanks for the zing--lightened my day :) -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:46:19 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: IN> Changing Vessels how exactly does changing vessels work? when you go celestial, your vessel disappears; when you change vessels does your current vessel disappear? does it just go comatose? and does your destination vessel suddenly spring from no where? Dennis H. Groome V -- "Amo Nympham" Web Developer, AN Consulting nallix@bellsouth.net ICQ: 11340261 http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9651 "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" - -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:54:01 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths >>>How is that any more lawyerly than "Never suffer an evil to live, if it is my choice"?<<< It has twice as many escape clauses, and sounds less like a solemn oath and more like a legal contract. No poetry. >>>I wanted "Never suffer an animal to die, if it is my choice", but that causes an incredible amount of dissonance.<<< Why? I think a basic common sense factor assumes the "if I can do anything about it" clause -- you don't suffer dissonance for things happening on the other side of the world. >>>No, it doesn't. "Define demons I like as not evil" is allowing personal preference to get in the way of honor. "Define anyone actively helping me to be not evil" is sacrificing the immediate implementation of an order in order to avoid sacrificing the current mission.<<< "Helping you" can be defined as anything convenient to the Malakite. It also implies that the mere act of helping the Malakite is enough to transcend an evil nature...which is a rather arrogant statement for the Malakite to make. "Spare evildoers for as long as they are actively serving Heaven's cause" would be more appropriate. That still requires a certain amount of judgment on the Malakite's part, but he's setting the standard as being outside himself. >>>Malakite PCs, in a game where several key informants are demons, are going to have a hard time not getting smacked down by the PC group if they go around killing the informants.<<< Sucks sometimes having to roleplay (and deal with) Malakim, doesn't it? But that's what they're about. Even a Malakite without an oath like the above, however, could probably be persuaded to let a demon live long enough to provide useful information, as long as he can be reasonably sure he'll be able to kill the demon later. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 21:21:20 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Yup. But the Lilim has to see _that_ Need, which is going to require > eye-contact (I'd rule, of the _un_possessed human), and a resonance > roll with a -2 or worse to the target number. (See the Infernal > Player's Guide for the Expanded Resonance Rules for Lilim.) Actually, isn't that Need probably going to be the foremost on the human's mind? I checked, and the -2 probably isn't going to inconvenience the Lilim too much if she's worth her pillar of salt, hm? > Even if you think she can get human needs while the Shedite is in > there, no Lilim will willingly resonate a Shedite after the first time > they do, I generally figure. ("It needs _WHAT?_" *barf*) You know, I've been wondering just -what- a Shedite could Need that would upset another demon so much. Remember, some Shedim can be subtle about their corruption. Someone who specializes in defrauding people financially through its hosts probably isn't going to gross anyone out too much. You can ruin a -lot- of lives and do some pretty despicable things without -physically- hurting anyone. > >Also, if the Shedite pushes the host to agree to the > >'trade', is it still a Geas on the host? > > That, I'd say no. It would be the _Shedite_ agreeing, not the host. So > any Geas would be on the _Shedite_. (Which some Lilim might use to get > a Geas on an unwary Shedite!) That...I like. Teach that Shedite to be more careful. > Also remember that Lilim think Shedim are disgusting -- they're not > likely to come up with this little scheme on their own, since the > Lilim is going to be trying not to barf thinking of slimy Shedim. Well, there are -always- exceptions. I'm sure not -every- Lilim in Hell hates Shedim. On a side note, what is the derivation of that word? Shedim. I read about a host of demons in a Conan story in the very early 80s called Shedim. They too, could possess human bodies, then they took the form of this huge mound of earth and turf with eyes. Sound familiar? I wonder where the term comes from. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:27:22 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths At 11:54 PM -0400 5/26/99, David Edelstein wrote: > > >>>Malakite PCs, in a game where several key informants are demons, are >going to have a hard time not getting smacked down by the PC group if they >go around killing the informants.<<< > >Sucks sometimes having to roleplay (and deal with) Malakim, doesn't it? >But that's what they're about. Even a Malakite without an oath like the >above, however, could probably be persuaded to let a demon live long enough >to provide useful information, as long as he can be reasonably sure he'll >be able to kill the demon later. This comes back to "Paladin's Syndrome," too. Malakim don't lose their brains when they swear their oaths. If a greater evil is destroyed by letting a demon live for now, the Malakite will do so. Sometimes, a demon might be allowed to live for quite some time, so long as the continued existence of the demon leads to a reduction of the greater evils of the area. When the demon no longer causes the active reduction of evil... then he dies. Boom. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 21:33:30 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 10:43 AM -0400 5/26/99, EDG wrote: > >At 10:33 AM 5/26/99 -0400, you wrote: > > > >>Even if you think she can get human needs while the Shedite is in > >>there, no Lilim will willingly resonate a Shedite after the first time > >>they do, I generally figure. ("It needs _WHAT?_" *barf*) > > > >*grins* Is "Get rid of this Shedite" a valid Need? If so, what level? >:) > > Maybe! And probably however long it would take for the human to make > the Will roll to resist enough times that the Shedite left... Of course, we're assuming the human -knows- he's possessed, which most won't. That and -nothing- stops said Shedite from -coming back-. You give a Shedite a high enough Will, and most humans aren't a big challenge. "Please, get this thing out of my head!" "Okay. Hey, Chormalador, you wanna jump out of there for a minute?" *Need fulfilled* <> *Jumps back in* Fun, fun, fun! I think Lilim are missing out on some interesting...friends. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:15:11 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: Grey Situations (Was Re: IN> Azariel the Habbalakite) On Tue, 25 May 1999, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>How do angels deal with demons who exhibit beliefs and personality > traits which are not incombatible with the Heavenly Host and are in fact > totally loyal to Heaven and against Hell?<<< > > They bring them to an Archangel for redemption. A demon that isn't ready > for redemption wouldn't fit the above description. You're assuming a medium to high "contrast" setting there. In a campaign in which demons have the possibility of possessing redeeming features, without going so far as *actually* redeeming, there could well exist beings like Azariel. Obviously, canon In Nomine doesn't follow this line (cough Austin cough :-) ), but it's still worth asking. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:15:15 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths On Wed, 26 May 1999, David Edelstein wrote: > Why? I think a basic common sense factor assumes the "if I can do anything > about it" clause -- you don't suffer dissonance for things happening on the > other side of the world. You do if you swear stupid Oaths. After all, Cherubim can take dissonance for something they know nothing about, and a Malakim could easily swear an Oath "protect X". This is why I assume Superiors like their Malakim to *talk* to them (or someone) before swearing a new Oath. If a Malakite just thought one day "I'll define anyone helping me to be not evil", then: 1) Their Superior would be pretty PO'ed in almost all cases. 2) They might find themselves defining someone as not evil, then having to kill them anyway, because *actually*, they are evil. On the other hand, if it was agreed with a (non-capital) superior in advance, I don't see why an oath along the lines of "refrain from smiting anyone who's helping me" should be a problem for, say, Novalis, who wouldn't mind a few demons getting away if it meant her Malakite a) survived and b) kept his blood pressure down. > "Helping you" can be defined as anything convenient to the Malakite. Rather depends on the GM - there's a deal of interpretation in most dissonance conditions. For example, one might rule that helping a Malakite to do something selfish isn't really helping him at all - for a start it makes him an Inquisition target. In such a case the Malakite would start getting those "must smite" pre-dissonance twitches. I think it's fair for the *GM* to add lawyer clauses to Malakim Oaths. That's why I think the wording of the First Oath should be "Never suffer an evil to live". "If it's my choice" is implicit in "suffer". > Sucks sometimes having to roleplay (and deal with) Malakim, doesn't it? Yep. Especially when PC Malakite resonates PC human, discovers he has no honour, observes that he is in league with at least one ethereal spirit, and gives PC human 12 hours to leave the city and never return, on pain of death. PC human is now living *outside* the city limits, in a house provided by PC Swordite, who is trying to recruit him as a soldier (and explain carefully why ethereals are a Bad Thing). Got some good role-playing out of the two Elohim trying to reason with the Malakite: "He's not evil, is he?" "Not as far as I know." "So why can't he stay?" "Because I don't trust him. He has no honour." "But you don't know he'll do anything wrong." "No." "So why can't he stay?" "He can stay. But if I see him in Oxford, I'll kill him." "Can't you give him a chance?" "No." ... Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:55:07 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Changing Vessels Amo Nympham wrote: > > how exactly does changing vessels work? when you go celestial, your vessel > disappears; when you change vessels does your current vessel disappear? > does it just go comatose? and does your destination vessel suddenly spring > from no where? You 'give up' your vessel and go celestial. It vanishes. You cause your second vessel to appear around you. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1238 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.