From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu May 27 17:58:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA31604 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 17:58:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA09351 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 27 May 1999 17:57:18 -0500 Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:57:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199905272257.RAA09351@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1239 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, May 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1239 In this digest: Re: IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths Re: IN> Changing Vessels Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Changing Vessels Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Changing Vessels Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Malakim and violent oaths Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Cherub of Destiny Question Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:09:50 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths David Edelstein wrote: > > >>>How is that any more lawyerly than "Never suffer an evil to live, if it > is my choice"?<<< > > It has twice as many escape clauses, and sounds less like a solemn oath and > more like a legal contract. No poetry. Yah. > > >>>I wanted "Never suffer an animal to die, if it is my choice", > but that causes an incredible amount of dissonance.<<< > > Why? I think a basic common sense factor assumes the "if I can do anything > about it" clause -- you don't suffer dissonance for things happening on the > other side of the world. It kinda runs counter to Jordi's word. The law of the jungle and all that. What do you do if a starving lion is going to kill an antelope? Invent Vege-lope? ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:55:07 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Changing Vessels Amo Nympham wrote: > > how exactly does changing vessels work? when you go celestial, your vessel > disappears; when you change vessels does your current vessel disappear? > does it just go comatose? and does your destination vessel suddenly spring > from no where? You 'give up' your vessel and go celestial. It vanishes. You cause your second vessel to appear around you. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:21:30 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim - -----Original Message----- From: Steel Angel >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Even if you think she can get human needs while the Shedite is in >> there, no Lilim will willingly resonate a Shedite after the first time >> they do, I generally figure. ("It needs _WHAT?_" *barf*) > > You know, I've been wondering just -what- a Shedite could Need that >would upset another demon so much. I think that it all comes from the fact that the Lilim, deep down inside, resonate to their Mother's Word of Freedom. And since Shedim are, by their fundamental nature, slavers (how else do you describe their use of possession to corrupt and destroy their hosts?), they are the complete antithesis of Lilim. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:11:03 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 09:33 PM 5/26/99 -0700, you wrote: >"Please, get this thing out of my head!" >"Okay. Hey, Chormalador, you wanna jump out of there for a minute?" >*Need fulfilled* ><> *Jumps >back in* I think the problem here is that the Lilim is following the strict letter of the agreement without following the spirit of it. I as GM wouldn't allow this transaction; I'd rule that the Lilim violated the contract as soon as the Shedite jumped back into the host. Actually... in this situation I'd have the Lilim roll at the standard -2 to see the get-rid-of-the-Shedite need, and then have the check digit represent the length of time the host would need to be free of the Shedite before the contract was fully completed. If the Shedite didn't stay out - she'd owe the _host_ a favor, if the host had already taken care of his end of things! - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:21:36 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > I think that it all comes from the fact that the Lilim, deep down inside, > resonate to their Mother's Word of Freedom. And since Shedim are, by their > fundamental nature, slavers (how else do you describe their use of > possession to corrupt and destroy their hosts?), they are the complete > antithesis of Lilim. But the Lilim are slavers, just as much as the Shedim. That explanation doesn't work... Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:02:10 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim - -----Original Message----- From: gantr@NKU.EDU > >On Thu, 27 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > >> I think that it all comes from the fact that the Lilim, deep down inside, >> resonate to their Mother's Word of Freedom. And since Shedim are, by their >> fundamental nature, slavers (how else do you describe their use of >> possession to corrupt and destroy their hosts?), they are the complete >> antithesis of Lilim. > >But the Lilim are slavers, just as much as the Shedim. That explanation >doesn't work... No, they aren't. They don't create Needs, they just exploit them. Aside from which, the being whose Need they sense doesn't *have* to accept their help. Once they have made their choice to accept their help, then they are bound by the terms of the contract to fulfill their part of the bargain, even as the Lilim is bound by the terms of the contract to fulfill *her* part. With Shedim, on the other pseudopod, the victim has little if any choice in the matter. Shedim force their victims to do things they would otherwise not do, while Lilim force their victims to choose whether or not they will strike a bargain with the Lilim. While both tend to corrupt their victims, the Shedim do so by taking away the Free Will which the Lilim exploit. And *that* is why Lilim are not the same as Shedim, as well as a good reason why the Lilim don't like the Shedim one whit. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:33:31 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Changing Vessels On Thu, 27 May 1999, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > Amo Nympham wrote: > > how exactly does changing vessels work? when you go celestial, your vessel > > disappears; when you change vessels does your current vessel disappear? > > does it just go comatose? and does your destination vessel suddenly spring > > from no where? > You 'give up' your vessel and go celestial. It vanishes. > You cause your second vessel to appear around you. doesn't that mean you'll be causing Disturbance? there's gotta be a more sublte way to change vessels. -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:17:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 9:21 PM -0700 5/26/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Yup. But the Lilim has to see _that_ Need, which is going to require >> eye-contact (I'd rule, of the _un_possessed human), and a resonance >> roll with a -2 or worse to the target number. (See the Infernal >> Player's Guide for the Expanded Resonance Rules for Lilim.) > > Actually, isn't that Need probably going to be the foremost on the >human's mind? Still need to have a -2 to be _assured_ that you get the Need you want. For instance, if you've stranded a human on a rock ledge, then he's either going to get off it or fall in the next day -- even if you assume that the "foremost in the mind" Need is the one you're going to get, if you roll a CD 6, you're going to get something that he'd take a _year_ to complete for himself (e.g., "get a promotion.") So you either keep rolling and risk a blowout, or you take the -2 to Perception and say, "I want a Need related to him getting off that ledge." >I checked, and the -2 probably isn't going to >inconvenience the Lilim too much if she's worth her pillar of salt, hm? I dunno. I've got a Lilim whose Perception is only 8. (She's a 3/3/3, 6/6, 5/7, 8/7 (increased individually).) They do need Will, after all, to resist all their demon buddies. >> Even if you think she can get human needs while the Shedite is in >> there, no Lilim will willingly resonate a Shedite after the first time >> they do, I generally figure. ("It needs _WHAT?_" *barf*) > > You know, I've been wondering just -what- a Shedite could Need that >would upset another demon so much. Remember, some Shedim can be subtle >about their corruption. Someone who specializes in defrauding people >financially through its hosts probably isn't going to gross anyone out >too much. You can ruin a -lot- of lives and do some pretty despicable >things without -physically- hurting anyone. But you have to get worse and worse. Eventually, the Shedite gets to the abuse/molestation/murder/canabilism of babies stage. >> It would be the _Shedite_ agreeing, not the host. So >> any Geas would be on the _Shedite_. (Which some Lilim might use to get >> a Geas on an unwary Shedite!) > > That...I like. Teach that Shedite to be more careful. (It also tends to make Shedim wary about that particular trick...) >> Also remember that Lilim think Shedim are disgusting -- they're not >> likely to come up with this little scheme on their own, since the >> Lilim is going to be trying not to barf thinking of slimy Shedim. > > Well, there are -always- exceptions. I'm sure not -every- Lilim in Hell >hates Shedim. Just most of 'em! O:> >On a side note, what is the derivation of that word? >Shedim. I read about a host of demons in a Conan story in the very early >80s called Shedim. They too, could possess human bodies, then they took >the form of this huge mound of earth and turf with eyes. Sound familiar? >I wonder where the term comes from. Beats me! It was the chosen name before I got on board. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:26:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Changing Vessels At 6:46 PM -0500 5/26/99, Amo Nympham wrote: >how exactly does changing vessels work? when you go celestial, your vessel >disappears; when you change vessels does your current vessel disappear? It vanishes into potentiality, to be replaced with your destination vessel. You go "microcelestial" for an instant. (A demon can _probably_ change in a Divine Tether without getting fried, but he may feel mildly sunburned. And then, of course, the Seneschal shows up asking what the disturbance was.) At 10:33 AM -0700 5/27/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Thu, 27 May 1999, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> Amo Nympham wrote: >> > how exactly does changing vessels work? when you go celestial, your vessel >> > disappears; when you change vessels does your current vessel disappear? >> > does it just go comatose? and does your destination vessel suddenly spring >> > from no where? >> You 'give up' your vessel and go celestial. It vanishes. >> You cause your second vessel to appear around you. > doesn't that mean you'll be causing Disturbance? Why, yes. Check errata -- changing vessels causes your Forces in disturbance (just like going celestial), +1 for the Essence it costs (instead of +2 as going celestial costs). > there's gotta be >a more sublte way to change vessels. Nope. Not in canon. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:24:57 -0400 From: Hilary Hayes Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim >And since Shedim are, by their > fundamental nature, slavers (how else do you describe their use of > possession to corrupt and destroy their hosts?), they are the complete > antithesis of Lilim.< >But the Lilim are slavers, just as much as the Shedim. That explanation doesn't work...< I don't get this =at all=. The Shedim make their hosts do stuff they don't want to do. They do this by =over-riding= the Will of the host. Lilim offer their 'mark' what they really, really want (and Lilim know what you really, really want) and ask for a small favour in exchange. I can see the Shedim as slavers. I can't see the Lilim as slavers. They're tempters. The potential victim =could= tell the Lilim 'No thank you, I think I'll manage without, if it's all the same to you.' After all, some people's greatest need is for freedom and independence. BTW, in canon, =can= a Lilim's victim refuse the favour? Does the victim have to make a Will roll to refuse the favour? A =contest= of Wills with the Lilim doesn't make sense IMO. Hilary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:35:52 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 2:24 PM -0400 5/27/99, Hilary Hayes wrote: >BTW, in canon, =can= a Lilim's victim refuse the favour? Yes. (Sometimes this can be difficult, mind -- a Lilim _can_ do you a favor without asking first! But if you reject it, giving back the thing she gave or otherwise resetting things, no hook.) I think this is in the IPG, actually. >Does the victim have to make a Will roll to refuse the favour? Only if the "favor" is a meal from a Lilim of Haagenti. The GM might think it _reasonable_ for the victim to make such a roll, but it's not supernatural-inspired -- it would be a roll to see if the victim could resist the temptation and go it alone. (Sorta like a reaction roll, when the GM wants a little randomity.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:36:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Steel Angel wrote: > On a side note, what is the derivation of that word? > Shedim. It's the generic Hebrew name for "demons," so far as I know. It may come from a Babylonian word meaning something like "attendant spirits," from what I read in the "Dictionary of Angels." I infer from the Dictionary that the singular form is "shedu." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:51:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > But you have to get worse and worse. Eventually, the Shedite gets to the > abuse/molestation/murder/canabilism of babies stage. Well, that just means that Lilim shouldn't resonate Shedim that have been in their hosts for more than a day or two. The Need to do really nasty, icky things won't be there until they've made their host do the less horrible stuff. Besides, I think Lilim, being demons, should be pretty used to seeing horrors beyond the imagination of us decent folks. Lilim of Fate should be pretty used to making people do awful things, and Lilim of Lust are probably quite used to doing horrible things to people themselves. As for Lilim of Death, I really don't want to know. My point being, portraying the Lilim as being horrified by Shedim is the same mistake as making Lilith cool instead of horrifying - taking what should be awful and dark and evil (assuming a high contrast setting) and making it kinda-nasty-but-not-really,-especially-when-compared-to-their- friends. IMO, Lilim have absolutely no compassion with humans, same as any other demon. Stupid monkeys the lot of 'em, deserving anything they get. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:56:01 -0700 From: "McCarthy, Douglas J" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and violent oaths > From: Earl Wajenberg > Concerning the Malakite of Jordi who heals the semi-squished > caterpillar and avenges it -- > I'd recommend a species limitation on his animal-avenging. > Insects... well, they die like flies. I was also thinking of going by the (what I heard is the) Biblical-literal interpretation of the word "animal" which is "living things with blood." So plants, insects, jellyfish, and I.V. tubes all fail this definition. Otherwise, yes, this Malakite is going to be Really Unwelcome Really Fast. > "Hello, Jordi? This is Novalis. Yeah, fine, thanks. Look, > you know, I've been thinking -- how about if grass became > poisonous to ungulates? Everywhere. Right now. Uh-huh... > uh-huh... Then STOP THAT DAMNED MALAKITE OF YOURS *NOW* OR > I'LL PERSONALLY KICK YOU UP JACOB'S LADDER TO COMPARE BRUISES > WITH URIEL! GOT IT!? Now hold the line. Here's Christopher > and Zadkiel." Ha! Entirely appropriate, considering that mine is a Novalis-based campaign. - -- Doug McCarthy And this is artificial moonlight... douglas.j.mccarthy@intel.com and artificial sky. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:38:10 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: [snip] > Besides, I think Lilim, being demons, should be pretty used to seeing > horrors beyond the imagination of us decent folks. Lilim of Fate should be thank-you for stating that which resonated within me but which i somehow failed to articulate with my question on why Lilim are percieved as being somehow weak-willed or of less sturdy constitution than other demons. granted that the perception (no pun intended) of Lilim grants them an intimacy that is sometimes distasteful when a Lilim resonates her target, but why they should be anymore repulsed or revolted than anything else which impinges on their own selfish worldview is beyond me. > pretty used to making people do awful things, and Lilim of Lust are > probably quite used to doing horrible things to people themselves. As for > Lilim of Death, I really don't want to know. exactly! > My point being, portraying the Lilim as being horrified by Shedim is the > same mistake as making Lilith cool instead of horrifying - taking what > should be awful and dark and evil (assuming a high contrast setting) and you just keep getting better and better, man! even if one assumes a "greyer" setting, more ambiguous in moral tone, there's no reason why a Lilim shouldn't look on a Shedite with more than indignation or contempt. i agree with the earlier comment that the two bands appear the antithese of one another, and that said disparity would account for animosity, one-sided as it appears (i don't recall reading anything about Shedim being disgusted by Lilim views or behavior, unless one views contempt and disgust as synonomous). > making it kinda-nasty-but-not-really,-especially-when-compared-to-their- > friends. IMO, Lilim have absolutely no compassion with humans, same as any > other demon. Stupid monkeys the lot of 'em, deserving anything they get. in a high-contrast setting, demons would be united only in their contempt of humanity, hatred for angels, and arrogant drive to usurp God's place. assuming a lower-contrast, they'd be better able to coordinate their efforts and set aside their personal views or conversely take issue with their fellow demons and work at cross-purposes (or rebel as Renegades do). even so, i don't see Lilim as weak. if anything, they'd willingly exploit a Shedite's Needs as quickly and as ruthlessly as anyone else whom they resonated. Lilim have read countless disgusting, revolting, horrifying Needs in mere humans and in their demon cousins. to me, that sort of knowledge would lend itself quickly to a jaded, blase` mindset. it's amusing to think of some Need so revolting that Lilim blanch or worse, but they've always seemed to have been made of sterner stuff to me. -=|horsefly|=- "Note to self: bring more ammo." --Ghost #8 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:09:13 -0400 From: Hilary Hayes Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim >IMO, Lilim have absolutely no compassion with humans, same as any other demon.< Except that Lilim are =not= demons. Lilith threw her lot in with Hell because she reckoned Lucifer was offering a better deal. There are more things in Heaven and in Hell, Horatio..... The Lilim are =allied= with Hell but that doesn't make them necessarily have to =like= demons or the things that demons do. I agree that they don't have a lot of respect for humanity but, in a sense, with Lilim, that's a matter of individual choice. There are Bright Lilim, after all. (Maybe I should state explicitly that I prefer very low contrast and ambiguous brightness....) My take is that they hate the Shedim because the Shedim are anti-Freedom (because they =force= their hosts to do stuff). Freedom is Lilith's Word. What Shedim do =opposes= Lilith's word. And that is why the Lilim find the Shedim so offensive. The actual stuff the Shedim force their hosts to do is not madly relevant. Hilary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:22:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 4:09 PM -0400 5/27/99, Hilary Hayes wrote: >>IMO, Lilim have absolutely no compassion with humans, same as any >other demon.< > >Except that Lilim are =not= demons. Actually, they are. They are celestial beings, and they fry in Heaven Tethers (unless redeemed). However, they are odd in some ways -- their resonance is Perception based, and doesn't change upon redemption. (And if you _ask_ them, some of them say they're not really demons. But they talk Helltongue and say they just want an _eeeeensy_ little favor, too.) However, their Mother is certainly human, and Lilim do partake of her nature. Of course, it's well known that humanity can sink to depths that make the most hardened Shedim hang several jaws open with admiration. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:16:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Hilary Hayes wrote: > Except that Lilim are =not= demons. Um. They're listed with the other bands. They're celestials, with vessels, dissonance, resonnances, discord, and stuff. They are at least as distinct from their Redeemed sisters as Shedim are from Kyriotates. They're demons. *Lilith* isn't a demon, granted. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:21:05 -0400 From: Hilary Hayes Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim >>even if one assumes a "greyer" setting, more ambiguous in moral tone, there's no reason why a Lilim shouldn't look on a Shedite with more than indignation or contempt. i agree with the earlier comment that the two bands appear the antithese of one another, and that said disparity would account for animosity, one-sided as it appears (i don't recall reading anything about Shedim being disgusted by Lilim views or behavior, unless one views contempt and disgust as synonomous).<< There is no reason why a Shedite should be disgusted by a Lilim. Being cautious is an entirely different matter. A Shedite who puts itself in the line of a Lilim, or even worse a Geas, is asking for big trouble. Ashley. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:43:01 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Hilary Hayes wrote: > There is no reason why a Shedite should be disgusted by a Lilim. Being > cautious is an entirely different matter. A Shedite who puts itself in > the line of a Lilim, or even worse a Geas, is asking for big trouble. i say Shedim view Lilim with disgust because Shedim see--looking at a Lilim--a weak thing with the power to corrupt *so much,* to twist desires and choke a target with its own Needs, its own freedom, and yet the Lilim restrains herself. Lilim don't go all-out, don't degrade their targets as much as Shedim feel the Tempters could. the disgust comes from potential squandered--from inaction, rather than actual behavior. Shedim *percieve* Lilim as weak-willed. that doesn't mean (as you note), that Lilim *are.* Shedim know it's not wise to cross a Lilim, but what happens to a Shedite who does is seen as retribution. even in instances of Lilim vengeance, Shedim sneer at what could have been done to the fool Corruptor who crossed a Tempter. nothing is never *enough* to the Shedim. *that* is why they view Lilim with contempt. i'd say they view everyone with that sort of contempt. further, contempt of your fellow bandmates and fellow bands seems to resonate within and radiate from Hell. again, it's a pity Hell doesn't more often get mired in said contempt.... -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:19:37 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Elizabeth McCoy > ("It needs _WHAT?_" *barf*) > >Also remember that Lilim think Shedim are disgusting -- they're not >likely to come up with this little scheme on their own, since the >Lilim is going to be trying not to barf thinking of slimy Shedim. This seems unlikely to me. First of all, Lilim are demons, and almost by definition there isn't much they find abhorrent. Second, Lilim are more diabolical and further from grace than Shedim, so the freaking should run in the other direction. All a Shedite really wants to do is settle into the cool dark corners of the soul; whereas a Lilim is consumed by the lust for power, is full of a restless hunger that is never satisfied by anything short of absolute control. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:42:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Hilary Hayes wrote: > >IMO, Lilim have absolutely no compassion with humans, same as any > other demon.< > > Except that Lilim are =not= demons. Lilith threw her lot in with Hell > because she reckoned Lucifer was offering a better deal. There are more > things in Heaven and in Hell, Horatio..... As Beth noted, the Lilim are demons, in practice even if not in all single details. > The Lilim are =allied= with Hell but that doesn't make them necessarily > have to =like= demons or the things that demons do. I agree that they don't > have a lot of respect for humanity but, in a sense, with Lilim, that's a > matter of individual choice. There are Bright Lilim, after all. (Maybe I > should state explicitly that I prefer very low contrast and ambiguous > brightness....) There are Bright Lilim, and there are demons that Redeem. No difference there. > My take is that they hate the Shedim because the Shedim are anti-Freedom > (because they =force= their hosts to do stuff). Freedom is Lilith's Word. > What Shedim do =opposes= Lilith's word. And that is why the Lilim find the > Shedim so offensive. The actual stuff the Shedim force their hosts to do > is not madly relevant. And Lilim don't force people to do things? Yeah, right. Freedom may be Lilith's Word, but there are Lilim serving -all- the DP:s. A Lilim serving the Game doesn't have much respect for Freedom, methinks. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:42:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Of course, it's well known that humanity can sink to depths that make > the most hardened Shedim hang several jaws open with admiration. And still it's worse for Lilim to resonate Shedim than humans? ;) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:53:51 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim - -----Original Message----- From: Anders Gabrielsson >On Thu, 27 May 1999, Hilary Hayes wrote: >> My take is that they hate the Shedim because the Shedim are anti-Freedom >> (because they =force= their hosts to do stuff). Freedom is Lilith's Word. >> What Shedim do =opposes= Lilith's word. And that is why the Lilim find the >> Shedim so offensive. The actual stuff the Shedim force their hosts to do >> is not madly relevant. > >And Lilim don't force people to do things? Yeah, right. Lilim force people to make choices. Shedim take people's choices away. What part of "taking away peoples' freedom of choice makes Shedim worse than Lilim" does not compute, for you? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:15:29 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > From: Anders Gabrielsson > >On Thu, 27 May 1999, Hilary Hayes wrote: > >> My take is that they hate the Shedim because the Shedim are anti-Freedom > >> (because they =force= their hosts to do stuff). Freedom is Lilith's > Word. > >> What Shedim do =opposes= Lilith's word. And that is why the Lilim find > the > >> Shedim so offensive. The actual stuff the Shedim force their hosts to do > >> is not madly relevant. > > > >And Lilim don't force people to do things? Yeah, right. > > Lilim force people to make choices. Shedim take people's choices away. What > part of "taking away peoples' freedom of choice makes Shedim worse than > Lilim" does not compute, for you? A Lilim can make a favor for you without you agreeing to it, then force you to do something for her in turn. It's nothing like a fair trade - the Lilim doesn't say "I'll do this for you and you'll do that for me", but rather "I can do this for you, and then you'll owe me one" and then make your life much, much worse than it had been if she hadn't helped you in the first place. The Lilim aren't nice and cuddly people who just happen to go around making deals with people. They work for Hell, and they do their best to make sure people end up there. They're no better or worse than Shedim, IMO, since they do the same thing - make people go to Hell, or wish they had. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:40:10 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > I dunno. I've got a Lilim whose Perception is only 8. (She's a 3/3/3, > 6/6, 5/7, 8/7 (increased individually).) They do need Will, after all, > to resist all their demon buddies. I'm actually sort of surprised. I wouldn't think most Lilim are too big on Corporeal Forces. > > You know, I've been wondering just -what- a Shedite could Need that > >would upset another demon so much. Remember, some Shedim can be subtle > >about their corruption. Someone who specializes in defrauding people > >financially through its hosts probably isn't going to gross anyone out > >too much. You can ruin a -lot- of lives and do some pretty despicable > >things without -physically- hurting anyone. > > But you have to get worse and worse. Eventually, the Shedite gets to the > abuse/molestation/murder/canabilism of babies stage. Oh I don't know. I'm sure bilking people out of their life savings, making them take out loans they can't repay, then aiming them at organized crime to repay their debts is really pretty awful. You can potentially kill dozens of people without so much as gassing up your chainsaw. Now I'm equally sure from the portrayal that most Shedim -do- like 'Belltower time' (as I tend to refer to it). But cheating in the market a little is a long way from cheating that 78 year old lady out of her Social Security checks and bulldozing her house. That leaves said Shedite a lot of time in a particular host, with time out for rudeness and some minor vandalism to keep the Dissonance away. Addressing the whole 'slaver' thing, too. Lilim can create Needs, but I'm not sure how common this would be. I can see quite a few Daughters specializing in getting humans into bad situations and becoming their 'guardian angel'. But don't Shedim push a host to do things (for the most part) that that host -is- capable of? Using the books, it states they 'rev the engine of evil that idles in human minds' and they convince the host that the corruption 'was their idea'. Now for a RP and mechanics question. If a Shedite gets a human used to a particular form of corruption (anyone else think it weird that the Demon of Corruption is now a Djinn and not a Shedite? Guess that whole Legion thing got Hell tetchy about that.) will that human -continue- the practice if the Shedite leaves? Let's say...a Shedite of Andre is shoving a human towards the child porn industry. If it immerses the host in there for a few weeks, if it jumps ship, will the host continue doing it? According to how Malakim view Shedim in the APG, apparently the answer is yes. Also, finally, how long does it take a Shedite to just jump ship in an emergency? There will certainly be a Disturbance, but can most Shedim hop out before a host dies if they see it coming? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots (who realizes this Resonance is more complicated than it seems at first) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:41:27 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim From: Anders Gabrielsson >On Thu, 27 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: >> >> Lilim force people to make choices. Shedim take people's choices away. What >> part of "taking away peoples' freedom of choice makes Shedim worse than >> Lilim" does not compute, for you? > >A Lilim can make a favor for you without you agreeing to it, then force >you to do something for her in turn. It's nothing like a fair trade - the >Lilim doesn't say "I'll do this for you and you'll do that for me", but >rather "I can do this for you, and then you'll owe me one" and then make >your life much, much worse than it had been if she hadn't helped you in >the first place. But you still were completely free to choose not to accept the Lilim's assistance. And while she doesn't necessarily have to uphold her part of teh bargain, there is still a bargain involved. With a Shedim, the victim isn't even allowed that much. >The Lilim aren't nice and cuddly people who just happen to go around >making deals with people. I never said they were, just that they are not as bad, on average, as Shedim. >They work for Hell, and they do their best to >make sure people end up there. They're no better or worse than Shedim, >IMO, since they do the same thing - make people go to Hell, or wish they >had. IMO, they are better than Shedim, if only by default, because Shedim work to destroy free will, while Lilim merely (in contrast) exploit it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:07:15 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: IN> Cherub of Destiny Question I have been giving some thought to the Cherubim of Destiny lately (one of my players now has one). Their Choir attunement (paraphrasing) is that they can sense if their attuned is going to die in the next year. My question is: Do Cherubim of Destiny suffer Dissonance for allowing their attuned to die (naturally or violently) if they have read the attuned's Destiny (using Divine Destiny) and have determined that this is the way the attuned is supposed to die? If they do take Dissonance from this, they would have to attempt to sever the attunement, which doesn't seem correct to me. ATM, I'm picturing an extremely dedicated Cherub of Destiny standing across the road, weeping while he watches his attuned person get killed by a violent mob, but stopping himself from doing anything about it because he knows that this will raise public awareness and facilitate social change for the better, ie, the attuned's Destiny. What do other people think? Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:56:15 -0400 From: Hilary Hayes Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim >>Except that Lilim are =not= demons. Actually, they are. They are celestial beings, and they fry in Heaven Tethers (unless redeemed). However, they are odd in some ways -- their resonance is Perception based, and doesn't change upon redemption. (And if you _ask_ them, some of them say they're not really demons. But they talk Helltongue and say they just want an _eeeeensy_ little favor, too.)<< OK, I bow to canon. =However= , the Lilim never fell. This makes them somewhat different from the other Bands. Demons who fell are perversions of their own true nature within the symphony. Hellborn demons are predicated on those perverted templates. Lilim are what they are and, demonic or bright, are true to their =own= natures. Lilim are grey. That's why their word is Freedom. They stand between the Darkness and the Light. I already admitted I like my In Nomine =very= low contrast. If you turn the contrast right down the concept of the Lilim becomes critical. As, of course, does the concept of the Malakim, who also never fell. >However, their Mother is certainly human, and Lilim do partake of her nature.< Maybe, being a naturally low contrast, ambiguous brightness kind of a person, that's where I tend to put the emphasis. H ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1239 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.