From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu May 27 20:32:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17592 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:32:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA20866 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:33:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:33:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199905280133.UAA20866@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1240 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, May 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1240 In this digest: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Malakim and violent oaths Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Fallen Lilim? Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Cherub of Destiny Question Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths IN> Disturbance Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Cherub of Destiny Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:02:52 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Steel Angel wrote: > > > On a side note, what is the derivation of that word? > > Shedim. > > It's the generic Hebrew name for "demons," so far as I know. > It may come from a Babylonian word meaning something like > "attendant spirits," from what I read in the "Dictionary of > Angels." I infer from the Dictionary that the singular form > is "shedu." I thought that was dybbuk(sp? I don't have the book with me)...hmmm... - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:07:42 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and violent oaths McCarthy, Douglas J wrote: > > > From: Earl Wajenberg > > > Concerning the Malakite of Jordi who heals the semi-squished > > caterpillar and avenges it -- > > > I'd recommend a species limitation on his animal-avenging. > > Insects... well, they die like flies. > > I was also thinking of going by the (what I heard is the) > Biblical-literal interpretation of the word "animal" which is > "living things with blood." So plants, insects, jellyfish, > and I.V. tubes all fail this definition. Otherwise, yes, this > Malakite is going to be Really Unwelcome Really Fast. Actually, insects -do- have blood. It flows freely in a chamber called the hemocoel and is sort of shoved about by their tubular heart. It doesn't have -hemoglobin-, because an insect's blood has nothing to do with respiration, but they have 'blood'. Now jellyfish, I'll grant you. :) But I still think I prefer the 'deliberate cruelty' oath, myself. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:11:05 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > Lilim force people to make choices. Shedim take people's choices away. What > part of "taking away peoples' freedom of choice makes Shedim worse than > Lilim" does not compute, for you? The part that doesn't compute for me is "Shedim take away people's freedom of choice but Lilim don't". I think Emily Dresner has commented before that Lilith, as written up, doesn't seem to know a great deal about the ethics of freedom. Neither do I, but I can have a stab. Shedim attempt to force their host to do something against their will by taking over their bodies. If the host makes a Will roll, they avoid doing it. Lilim attempt to force their victim to do something against their will by pointing a magic gun at them which does Soul damage. If the victim makes a Will roll, they avoid the gun. The Lilim don't really have the moral high ground here. They offer a choice, but ethically speaking the choice "obey or die" does not represent freedom. Forcing someone to do something at gunpoint is no more nor less a repression of freedom than forcing them to do it with drugs or mind control. The Lilim argument that they do something in return, therefore it isn't slavery, doesn't stand up. It wouldn't be slavery if both parties knew what the two services were in advance, and agreed to a trade. That is freedom, but it isn't what Lilim typically do. The Lilim argument that you can turn down their help is a lie - you can't. Lilith is a Demon Princess, and she stands (depending on brightness and contrast) for the freedom of one individual to oppress another. That is not freedom - ask Proudhon. Failing that, ask Lilith, specifically in here write-up in FotM where she says words to the effect of: "In return for Adam's attempt to exert his will on me, my children can exert their will on his, for a time." The next part of her argument "But they offer fair exchange rather than service for nothing." is a lie given what Lilim can and do get away with as 'fair' exchange. The reason Shedim are more evil than Lilim is that Shedim (all) take enjoyment from causing pain, and from perverting their hosts and those around them. Lilim are merely willing to do so if necessary, although presumably, like any other Band, some of them will make a hobby of it. Steve. - ------ Join the "Lilith is evil" campaign, and get a free button and poster - this week only. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:21:47 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Hilary Hayes wrote: > > > Except that Lilim are =not= demons. > > Um. They're listed with the other bands. They're celestials, > with vessels, dissonance, resonnances, discord, and stuff. > They are at least as distinct from their Redeemed sisters > as Shedim are from Kyriotates. They're demons. *Lilith* > isn't a demon, granted. This raises an interesting canon question. -Is- there any such thing as a Celestial being that is -not- an angel, demon, or variant thereof? (Remnants, Relievers, Imps, and Gremlins are either derived from or are 'larval forms' of angels and demons) Also of interest, can Relievers or Imps/Gremlins Fall or be Redeemed? Or do they not have enough personality. Also, do they have Dissonance conditions? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:32:29 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim - -=|horsefly|=- wrote: i'd say they view everyone with > that sort of contempt. further, contempt of your fellow bandmates and > fellow bands seems to resonate within and radiate from Hell. again, it's > a pity Hell doesn't more often get mired in said contempt.... I would say, from the IPG, that demons don't do this as often as they would like because well, if they do, They Lose The War. Even the Princes don't go full-tilt at each other because they realize that, if they do, it'll all be over. The Archangels aren't stupid, they seize upon an advantage as quick as any Prince would. If they can make headway by setting the demons against each other (and it seems they do sometimes) then they will. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:34:03 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 12:11 AM 5/28/99 +0100, you wrote: >The Lilim argument that you can turn down their help is a lie - you can't. Sure you can. Just say "No thanks." The discussion involving what Lilim can and can't do has been had before; I believe the result was a ruling/agreement that a Lilim's resonance depends upon an agreement. A Lilim can't just resonate a need for $40,000 to keep your company solvent, put that money into your bank account, and then come by a while later and demand a favor of you - there was no agreement made. However - if she were to do this, then leave a note on your desk telling you who she was and what she'd done, that you owed her one, and you let it slide because your company was back in the black - then there would be an implicit agreement, because you challenged neither the favor nor the request for one. At least IMW, a major part of the Lilim resonance is that the target must - _absolutely_ must - have a way to refuse the deal. Whether it's returning the money or letting go of the cliff, there must be some way out of it. >The next part of her argument "But they offer fair exchange rather than >service for nothing." is a lie given what Lilim can and do get away with >as 'fair' exchange. Fair is fair. That's what Geas levels are all about. The Lilim know how to get the most out of a limited resource, but there's only so much you can get out of it; a human could get exactly the same amount out of a favor, if he were wily enough. And even if they didn't - it's no more unfair than a movie theatre's prices on popcorn or candy. If you give them a lot of money, they will give you a very small amount of popcorn. ;) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:34:06 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Fallen Lilim? On Thu, 27 May 1999, Hilary Hayes wrote: > OK, I bow to canon. =However= , the Lilim never fell. This makes them > somewhat different from the other Bands. > > Demons who fell are perversions of their own true nature within the > symphony. Hellborn demons are predicated on those perverted templates. > > Lilim are what they are and, demonic or bright, are true to their =own= > natures. All of which makes me wonder (as a corellary to the "malakim are demons" idea): Are Lilim really demons? Or are they unFallen celestials who, since they were born and raised in Hell, *assume* that they are demons? And if this is the case, how would a Lilim Fall? And what would a Fallen Lilim become? Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:49:33 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Hilary Hayes wrote: > Lilim are grey. That's why their word is Freedom. They stand between the > Darkness and the Light. I already admitted I like my In Nomine =very= low > contrast. If you turn the contrast right down the concept of the Lilim > becomes critical. As, of course, does the concept of the Malakim, who also > never fell. Actually, it's their Mother's Word, Lilim serve all sorts of words, from Lust to Death. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:50:17 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, EDG wrote: > >The Lilim argument that you can turn down their help is a lie - you can't. > > Sure you can. Just say "No thanks." > > The discussion involving what Lilim can and can't do has been had before; I > believe the result was a ruling/agreement that a Lilim's resonance depends > upon an agreement. Well, if that's the ruling, that's the ruling. I don't remember it, possibly because it's not the impression I've ever got from the books. > A Lilim can't just resonate a need for $40,000 to keep your company > solvent, put that money into your bank account, and then come by a > while later and demand a favor of you - there was no agreement made. My reading of the main rules at least is that she can do exactly this. Alternatively, she can say "Do you want this money?" If you say yes, she has a hook, even if she didn't tell you that you'd have to do anything in return. > Fair is fair. That's what Geas levels are all about. The Lilim know how > to get the most out of a limited resource, but there's only so much you can > get out of it; a human could get exactly the same amount out of a favor, if > he were wily enough. In my (heretical, since non-canon) opinion, geas levels *don't* work, although I haven't come up with anything better yet. I personally do not think that it is fair for a Lilim to subject her victim to one day's strenuous effort, in return for something which cost her nothing, that would have cost the victim one day's strenuous effort, that he may or may not have decided was worth it left to his own devices, and that he may or may not have realised at the time constituted a deal rather than a gift. > And even if they didn't - it's no more unfair than a movie theatre's prices > on popcorn or candy. If you give them a lot of money, they will give you a > very small amount of popcorn. ;) But I can ask them to show me the size of the box before I decide whether to give them the money. You can't do that with Lilim. If Lilim drew up contracts, and persuaded humans to sign them, I'd agree that was fair, but it's not what they do. If it was, angels wouldn't have a problem with them (at least not compared to most humans). Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:56:55 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: [snip] > Freedom may be Lilith's Word, but there are Lilim serving -all- the DP:s. > A Lilim serving the Game doesn't have much respect for Freedom, methinks. serving the Game simply furthers that Tempter's personal Freedom. ...or so she tells herself.... -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:34:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 11:42 PM +0200 5/27/99, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >On Thu, 27 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Of course, it's well known that humanity can sink to depths that make >> the most hardened Shedim hang several jaws open with admiration. > >And still it's worse for Lilim to resonate Shedim than humans? ;) As a Band-thing? Probably. Of course, they'd consider such a human just as disgusting. But most humans have nice, normal little needs that don't involve the Lilim letting the Shedite dismember her because it needs to up the ante in its host. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:45:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 3:40 PM -0700 5/27/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> I dunno. I've got a Lilim whose Perception is only 8. (She's a 3/3/3, >> 6/6, 5/7, 8/7 (increased individually).) They do need Will, after all, >> to resist all their demon buddies. > > I'm actually sort of surprised. I wouldn't think most Lilim are too big >on Corporeal Forces. A Free doesn't like to spend her time in Limbo because her vessel was wimpy and didn't have enough hits to survive minor things like muggers. >> But you have to get worse and worse. Eventually, the Shedite gets to the >> abuse/molestation/murder/canabilism of babies stage. > > Oh I don't know. I'm sure bilking people out of their life savings, >making them take out loans they can't repay, then aiming them at >organized crime to repay their debts is really pretty awful. Yeah, but you can only do that once -- and it may take several Will rolls to overcome (being a multistage plan, not a single act of vileness). What do you do for an encore? > Addressing the whole 'slaver' thing, too. Lilim can create Needs, but >I'm not sure how common this would be. I can see quite a few Daughters >specializing in getting humans into bad situations and becoming their >'guardian angel'. But don't Shedim push a host to do things (for the >most part) that that host -is- capable of? Well, the host has to make a Will roll to resist (yeah, right). I define Shedim by a dream I had, actually. Now, in context: I adore cats. Even if they are selfish little beasts. I've been taking my cat to chemo for over 18 months here, every 1-4 weeks depending on how he's been doing. I had a dream where one of my cats was on the other side of a screen door from me, and had caught her toes in the door like little black berries. And I was plucking them off, one by one, maiming my sweet cat, dispassionately, as if she didn't matter. As if I didn't care about her. And I couldn't stop. My hand just kept coming up and picking off a toe. I woke up wanting to wash my brain out. That's Shedite, and not even Shedite on a roll... >Using the books, it states >they 'rev the engine of evil that idles in human minds' and they >convince the host that the corruption 'was their idea'. Now for a RP and >mechanics question. If a Shedite gets a human used to a particular form >of corruption [...] will that human -continue- the practice if the >Shedite leaves? Possibly -- because it seems like it was the human's own idea. And if the human realizes that it wasn't really what he wanted to do... As the book says, "Many hosts who are driven this far kill themselves [after the Shedite leaves]". Some humans will keep it up -- they had fun. Some will be disgusted -- _because_ they had fun. > Also, finally, how long does it take a Shedite to just jump ship in an >emergency? There will certainly be a Disturbance, but can most Shedim >hop out before a host dies if they see it coming? I'd probably let it happen near-instant -- however, in combat, I'd say that it would take a round. Otherwise, Shedim would never be dissonant! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:48:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cherub of Destiny Question At 9:07 AM +0000 5/28/99, Leath Sheales wrote: >My question is: Do Cherubim of Destiny suffer >Dissonance for allowing their attuned to die (naturally or violently) >if they have read the attuned's Destiny (using Divine Destiny) and >have determined that this is the way the attuned is supposed to die? If it's the human's _destiny_ to die in that way -- then the soul will go to Heaven, and that's a _good_ thing, no? By strict canon, the Cherub would get dissonance for it, but would get dissonance (or at least a wrist-smack from Yves) for thwarting destiny, too. I might be inclined to be more lenient -- but the Cherub had better be blessed sure that s/he is _right._ Or you can stick them with dissonance that Yves will probably remove quickly. (And yes, I do see Cherubim as more likely to soak up the dissonance than de-attune. Except some of Judgment, maybe, who have a kind of skew view of the world anyway, by Cherubic standards.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:01:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 12:11 AM +0100 5/28/99, Steve Jessop wrote: >On Thu, 27 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > >> Lilim force people to make choices. Shedim take people's choices away. What >> part of "taking away peoples' freedom of choice makes Shedim worse than >> Lilim" does not compute, for you? > >The part that doesn't compute for me is "Shedim take away people's freedom >of choice but Lilim don't". Perhaps it should be more of, "Shedim take away people's freedom. Lilim _buy_ people's freedom." Because a Lilim (with some few exceptions) _has_ to pay something first. She has to do something before she can set the hook. She can't just walk up and geas someone to her will. She has to do something, give of herself somehow. Then she can exert the "You Owe Me" clause. Are all their deals as fair as they claim? Hell, no. But are they moving into someone's mind and moving their arms for them? Also no. The exchange may not be "fair" (though sometimes it will be!), but there is an exchange. It's not "something for nothing." And Lilim also believe in a skew "freedom" -- TANSTAAFL. Everything they ever got, they paid for. Either they owe Geases, or they owe their Prince in less obvious bonds. For a scrap of perceived freedom, they make "unofficial" deals with each other, instead of having to bear the weight of another Geas. Lilim geas themselves to others, and then _they_ are the puppets. They can resist (and get dissonance), or they can give in. They feel the same bonds that they inflict. "Humans can be such wimps. We make deals. We remember those who help us. We've felt the weight of a Geas a hundred times before. What are _they_ moaning about when it comes time to pay the piper?" Among other reasons, they _have_ to believe that their Geases aren't "un-Free." You see, if they acknowledge that they have enslaves another, then they have to acknowledge that _they_ have been enslaved time and again. It's not something they would want to approach head-on. >The reason Shedim are more evil than Lilim is that Shedim (all) take >enjoyment from causing pain, and from perverting their hosts and those >around them. Lilim are merely willing to do so if necessary, although >presumably, like any other Band, some of them will make a hobby of it. While demons aren't as diverse as humans, they aren't _entirely_ monolithic constructs. All rumors that every single Lilim is actually a Borg puppet/spy of Lilith to the contrary. Really. (Me, speak ex-cathedra? Nah, not at the moment.) emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:01:28 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim EDG wrote: > Fair is fair. That's what Geas levels are all about. The Lilim know how > to get the most out of a limited resource, but there's only so much you can > get out of it; a human could get exactly the same amount out of a favor, if > he were wily enough. Well...Remember, true freedom would let you take the favour, look at the Lilim and say 'Screw you, you did this for me of your own free will, I owe you nothing.' But Lilim -do- force you to uphold your end, no matter -what- they ask of you. If said Lilim gives $40k to a company and then asks, as her favour, that the head of said company evict an elderly woman from her apartment building, which they own, this could set up a chain of events where say...a Djinn could finally tag the old lady and track her, and then the Shedite could possess her, etc etc etc. A Geas is like a slavery contract. I did you this service and now, (if you don't make that Will roll) you -must- repay me...by doing -whatever- I ask, as long as it's of 'equal value'. This means saving you or your child's life could be repayed by having you commit murder. And if you're Geased, you -must- do it, like it or not. Not really the pure definition of Freedom, is it? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:20:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 5:01 PM -0700 5/27/99, Steel Angel wrote: >[...] And if you're Geased, you -must- do it, like it or not. Or you can turn into a puddle of dissonance or die. There's always a choice. Just sometimes it sucks. };> - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:20:27 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > On Thu, 27 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > > From: Anders Gabrielsson [snip] > > >And Lilim don't force people to do things? Yeah, right. > > Lilim force people to make choices. Shedim take people's choices > > away. What part of "taking away peoples' freedom of choice makes > > Shedim worse than Lilim" does not compute, for you? > A Lilim can make a favor for you without you agreeing to it, then force > you to do something for her in turn. It's nothing like a fair trade - the no, she can't. doing a favor for a human who does not know he has benefited from her actions does not equate to human-with-a-Geas. if a Lilim did as you suggest, she would accomplish an unspecified task, walk up to Joe Human, and say, "Do this for me." if a Geas is felt _at all_, the human would immediately resist 1) because this is a total stranger, 2) because the human doesn't want to, 3) what the Lilim told him to do was probably morally repugnant, and 4) he feels no obligation to help her. at that point, the Lilim takes Dissonance. and *that* assumes there was a Geas in the first place. no, what a Lilim does is read Needs, then *offer her services* for payment to be arranged later. "you owe me" then not only makes sense as a tag-line to be heard from any passing Lilim, but also comes into use as a reminder of what the Geas-hooked has probably forgotten: he made a _deal_, and that's what matters. a smart Lilim knows not to ask too much in return in order to keep those for whom she fulfills Needs don't resist, or uses a Song to make the target more accomodating, but Geases can still, ultimately be resisted. Shedim possess without consent of those they ride, degrading and destroying those possessed, all without the host resisting unless the Shedite's presence is made obviously, imminently clear. > Lilim doesn't say "I'll do this for you and you'll do that for me", but > rather "I can do this for you, and then you'll owe me one" and then make > your life much, much worse than it had been if she hadn't helped you in > the first place. only if you accept her offer! *only* if you accept her offer. in your earlier example, were a Lilim to do a favor for someone and only announce it afterward while calling on the Geas, a human (or Etherial or Celestial) can *still* renounce whatever she's done for the target. if you make a deal with a Lilim, you *made your choice,* and from that point on, you deserve whatever she demands. you owe it to her. > The Lilim aren't nice and cuddly people who just happen to go around > making deals with people. They work for Hell, and they do their best to > make sure people end up there. They're no better or worse than Shedim, > IMO, since they do the same thing - make people go to Hell, or wish they > had. no argument there. none whatsoever. the distinction comes in *how* the soul is brought to Hell: Shedim remove free will; Lilim exploit it. dealing with Lilim is not safe, not wise, and *only very rarely* profitable--and the last one is dubious. but anyone who does acts of his own accord, choosing his poison as it were. the danger in Lilim isn't just what they offer (thereby making life easier), how they act (making Freedom so attractive), but in their ability to twist Freedom into an instrument of damnation. -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:22:33 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > Oh I don't know. I'm sure bilking people out of their life savings, > >making them take out loans they can't repay, then aiming them at > >organized crime to repay their debts is really pretty awful. > > Yeah, but you can only do that once -- and it may take several Will rolls > to overcome (being a multistage plan, not a single act of vileness). What > do you do for an encore? Oh, I'm sure you can keep all the little things coming. No reason you can't intersperse ruining lives with vandalism and the occasional bar fight. And first you bilk one old lady. Then you evict a couple, then you buy and have an orphanage torn down. This could be interesting. As long as you don't escalate the physical end of this too quickly, you can destroy hundreds of lives before you have to abandon a host. When you don't sleep, you have the time to run a double life, after all. > I define Shedim by a dream I had, actually. > I woke up wanting to wash my brain out. Your dream. Obviously something you -are- capable of contemplating? Most people don't like to find out just what they might be capable of. >. If a Shedite gets a human used to a particular form > >of corruption [...] will that human -continue- the practice if the > >Shedite leaves? > > Possibly -- because it seems like it was the human's own idea. And if > the human realizes that it wasn't really what he wanted to do... As the > book says, "Many hosts who are driven this far kill themselves [after > the Shedite leaves]". Probably sending themselves to Hell. Job well done. ;) > Some humans will keep it up -- they had fun. Some will be disgusted -- > _because_ they had fun. But it will always be there, in the back of their mind...'I enjoyed this.' Seeds for some later Hellish work. > I'd probably let it happen near-instant -- however, in combat, I'd say > that it would take a round. Otherwise, Shedim would never be dissonant! Save for their huge 'must get worse every single day' thing, neh? ;) - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:07:05 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >The part that doesn't compute for me is "Shedim take away people's freedom > >of choice but Lilim don't". > > Perhaps it should be more of, "Shedim take away people's freedom. Lilim > _buy_ people's freedom." Provided you add the caveat that they buy it according to standardised rates, rather than according to what the person in question wants to charge. That's when geas levels make sense - a controlled market and organised price-fixing... Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:29:50 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths >>>You do if you swear stupid Oaths. After all, Cherubim can take dissonance for something they know nothing about, and a Malakim could easily swear an Oath "protect X".<<< This is true. A merciful Archangel might relieve a Malakite of a foolish oath (but turn it into a painful lesson). A paranoid Archangel might require his Malakim to approve all oaths with him first. >>>"He's not evil, is he?" "Not as far as I know." "So why can't he stay?" "Because I don't trust him. He has no honour." "But you don't know he'll do anything wrong." "No." "So why can't he stay?" "He can stay. But if I see him in Oxford, I'll kill him." "Can't you give him a chance?" "No."<<< Yah. There, you need to reform the human, get him to do some honorable things, and then grab the Malakite by his ears and say "Now, resonate on him! Heaven offers chances for redemption, remember!" But it's quite a sticky situation...and a properly played Malakite will cause all kinds of problems like that. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:29:53 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Disturbance >>>David, is there anything in the GMG that clarifies this? Not that I'd expect it to be possible to make a coherent story out of what does and doesn't disturb the Symphony....<<< I'm planning a set of variant rules for disturbance -- ranging from (simpler) optional rules using the existing assumptions, to non-canonical alterations (like disturbance causes *damage*, or can eject celestials from the corporeal plane, etc.) I wasn't planning on trying to explain the meta-rules behind what makes disturbance and what doesn't. I think they're a bit inconsistent also. (It was brought up long ago on the list that *saving* a human who would have died without celestial intervention should generate just as much disturbance as killing him.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:32:39 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Our spies report that on 02:24 PM 5/27/99 -0400, Hilary Hayes said: > >BTW, in canon, =can= a Lilim's victim refuse the favour? Does the victim >have to make a Will roll to refuse the favour? A =contest= of Wills with >the Lilim doesn't make sense IMO. > >Hilary > With the notable exception of Lilim of Haagenti using their attunement (which creates a meal you must roll to resist eating and for which you owe a Geas), the 'victims' of Lilim generally must agree. Of course, they don't know what they are agreeing to. In earlier times, one expects, it was much harder on the Lilim. Back in the day when people took "You'll just owe me." with much greater seriousness and actively avoided accidentally making a deal with the Devil... But Lilim can use various methods to cheat and make people more likely to accept, but ultimately it's all about fair payment for services rendered. They represent the demons of legend who would, if they signed a contract, follow it to the letter. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:37:22 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > i'd say they view everyone with > > that sort of contempt. further, contempt of your fellow bandmates and > > fellow bands seems to resonate within and radiate from Hell. again, > > it's a pity Hell doesn't more often get mired in said contempt.... > I would say, from the IPG, that demons don't do this as often as > they would like because well, if they do, They Lose The War. Even the we're certainly agreed on that point: succumbing to contempt for fellow demons is a prime recipe for quick defeat, in battles and in the Final Battle. i'd don't think you even need to reference the IPG for this point, though citing it indicates that canon stipulates demons aren't stupid and haven't fallen for that ploy in significant degree or numbers for Heaven's victory yet. i'd wager contempt and selfishness is what inherently dooms the Infernal side of the War, but that's only in a pro-Heaven game. > Princes don't go full-tilt at each other because they realize that, if > they do, it'll all be over. The Archangels aren't stupid, they seize > upon an advantage as quick as any Prince would. If they can make headway > by setting the demons against each other (and it seems they do > sometimes) then they will. no question. indeed, we see evidence in canon that Demon Princes try to do the same thing to Archangels, formenting dissent and distrust to keep Heaven disorganized and easier pickings. or are things worse than that and Heaven acts in this way because of its own failings? that would certainly offer a much darker game, and one more suitable for an Infernal victory. -=|horsefly|=- "It was a different time: a time of blood and guns and killings.... It was a time when killers needed saints, for so much of God's good work was being done." --SAINT OF KILLERS #4, Garth Ennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:12:24 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Steve Jessop wrote: [snip] > If Lilim drew up contracts, and persuaded humans to sign them, I'd agree > that was fair, but it's not what they do. If it was, angels wouldn't have > a problem with them (at least not compared to most humans). angels would still have a problem with Lilim because even then the Lilim would be working actively to damn human souls to Hell. the only thing that would change is the method, and i guarantee that angels don't care how a demon drags its target to the Pit, they simply want that demon (and all the others) stopped. if you took the Lilim out of the equation for a moment and suggest that a human did the same thing, Hellsworn or simply, mundanely *human,* the angels would still want the activity - --i do you a favor and in return you do something for me which is bad for you--quashed because of its results. -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:13:09 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Sean McCarthy wrote: > But Lilim can use various methods to cheat and make people more likely to > accept, but ultimately it's all about fair payment for services rendered. > They represent the demons of legend who would, if they signed a contract, > follow it to the letter. If it was fair, do you think Hell would use them? They'd all be working for Marc, wouldn't they? It has nothing to do with 'fair' because again, the human -doesn't know- that the Lilim is a -demon- working for Hell and that whatever she asks will likely further Hell's cause and damn the human's soul a bit. Then there's also all this talk about resisting a Geas like anyone can just blow it off by saying 'I don't think I want to repay you.'. Not according to what I've read. In fact, it seems about as easy for a human to shrug off a Geas as it is for a human to resist a Shedite. And lest we forget, Lilim can ask something of 'equal value' that the human might -never- consider doing, but will be -forced to- by the Geas. Just because I save your kid's life doesn't mean I can ask you to kill for me. Not if I was 'being fair'. That's an extreme example, but you see the point. 'I bailed yout out financially and you agreed to owe me a favour...so go steal from your father for me.' It's the not telling -what- the favour might be that makes it inherantly unfair, no one probably -expects- the kinds of 'repayment' a demon (and make no mistake, they are demons) is going to ask for. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:32:19 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Cherub of Destiny Question On Thu, 27 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 9:07 AM +0000 5/28/99, Leath Sheales wrote: > >My question is: Do Cherubim of Destiny suffer > >Dissonance for allowing their attuned to die (naturally or violently) > >if they have read the attuned's Destiny (using Divine Destiny) and > >have determined that this is the way the attuned is supposed to die? > If it's the human's _destiny_ to die in that way -- then the soul will > go to Heaven, and that's a _good_ thing, no? who's asking? no, no, who *are* you asking? ;) > By strict canon, the Cherub would get dissonance for it, but would > get dissonance (or at least a wrist-smack from Yves) for thwarting > destiny, too. ok, glad i don't mind deviating from canon here, then. > I might be inclined to be more lenient -- but the Cherub had better > be blessed sure that s/he is _right._ Or you can stick them with > dissonance that Yves will probably remove quickly. were a Cherub to use Divine Destiny on its attuned and discover the form of the attuned's death, i'd say the Cherub who restrained itself from interfering, suffering through the pain of watching something it *loves* DIE, even though this is _how things are supposed to be_ would find itself suddenly *clensed* of any Dissonance it had at the moment of its attuned's death. if i ever run In Nomine and one of my players picks a Cherub of Yves for his/her character, and if that hypothetical character went to its Superior with this news, i'd have the Old Man smile gently, maybe with a little pride, and if he said anything at all, it would be along the lines of "It feels good to do God's will, doesn't it?" > (And yes, I do see Cherubim as more likely to soak up the dissonance > than de-attune. Except some of Judgment, maybe, who have a kind of > skew view of the world anyway, by Cherubic standards.) agreed, they're selfless little martyrs that way . -=|horsefly|=- ...feeling ambivelent right now.... ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1240 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.