From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 28 10:02:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA31223 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 10:02:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA22637 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 28 May 1999 09:59:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:59:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199905281459.JAA22637@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1241 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1241 In this digest: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Shedim corrupting Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Song of Fire Disturbance question Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim corrupting IN> Reach out and touch someone Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:54:41 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 11:42 PM +0200 5/27/99, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > >On Thu, 27 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Of course, it's well known that humanity can sink to depths that make > >> the most hardened Shedim hang several jaws open with admiration. > >And still it's worse for Lilim to resonate Shedim than humans? ;) > As a Band-thing? Probably. Of course, they'd consider such a human > just as disgusting. But most humans have nice, normal little needs > that don't involve the Lilim letting the Shedite dismember her because > it needs to up the ante in its host. that's all?? hell, i'm sure any Lilim with an extra vessel would jump at such a thing--that's a juicy Geas 6 in the making, baby! ...now, the canny Lilim has to think to herself, 'How much am I willing to endure before jumping to my other body?" if she lets her vessal get maimed and brutalized but vanishes before actually *dying* (and hence going into Trauma), is that worth less of a Geas than if she actually endures the Big T and comes back claiming a Geas on the Shedite further on? generally speaking, Lilim are probably more pragmatic than that. i don't think most Lilim are that self-sacrificing unless it's some *long-sighted* plan for revenge. i.e., Jane Lilim reads the Shedite's need to have his host dismember her [vessel], and she submits, endures Trauma, and comes back after a time. i imagine the conversation would go something like this... "Hazphrack, y'know that blonde bimbo your host dismembered a few months ago before he was caught by the police?" "Yeah, Mizzah, that was priceless!" "Heh, glad to hear you say that. See, that was me." "WHAT?!" "Yep, that was my vessel, and you needed it dismembered and dead. You got it. Now you owe me." "Satan's balls!" "Anyway, all I want you to do is go to the Japanese Rock Garden on Third and Platial downtown. Go celestial but *don't jump into ANYONE* until you see me there." "Uhh..." "Hazphrack!" "Okay, okay... but it won't be long, right?" "Oh, not long at all." "You're sure about this?" "C'mon, I let you vessel-kill me. Trust me!" "..." and the Shedite goes off to the Garden, ignorant of the fact that said Garden is a Tether to Stone, and finds itself fried by the Light of Heaven. -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:49:58 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Steel Angel wrote: > >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >You know, I've been wondering just -what- a Shedite could Need that >> >would upset another demon so much. Remember, some Shedim can be subtle >> >about their corruption. Someone who specializes in defrauding people >> >financially through its hosts probably isn't going to gross anyone out >> >too much. You can ruin a -lot- of lives and do some pretty despicable >> >things without -physically- hurting anyone. >> >> But you have to get worse and worse. Eventually, the Shedite gets to the >> abuse/molestation/murder/canabilism of babies stage. > > Addressing the whole 'slaver' thing, too. Lilim can create Needs, but >I'm not sure how common this would be. I can see quite a few Daughters >specializing in getting humans into bad situations and becoming their >'guardian angel'. But don't Shedim push a host to do things (for the >most part) that that host -is- capable of? Using the books, it states >they 'rev the engine of evil that idles in human minds' and they >convince the host that the corruption 'was their idea'. Now for a RP and >mechanics question. If a Shedite gets a human used to a particular form >of corruption (anyone else think it weird that the Demon of Corruption >is now a Djinn and not a Shedite? Guess that whole Legion thing got Hell >tetchy about that.) will that human -continue- the practice if the >Shedite leaves? Here's the way I run Shedim -- I think of them as sort of like stained glass. When a Shedite possesses a human, it doesn't so much corrupt the human as unlock the evil latent within all humans. If you want to get theological, mankind's ability to do good is in large measure dependent on divine Grace, and a Shedite acts as a sort of dark glass that cuts down on the amount of God's light that shines on the soul, and in the dark people's natural villainy waxes greater. So when people are possessed by a Shedite, what they do isn't so much the commands of the Shedite, so much as what they would do if they gave in wholely to their evil natures. So everything a person does while possessed is an evil that's *in-character* for them. An actor who desires to be famous and respected wouldn't immediately start to put babies in a blender, but might start to pass up artistically challenging roles and prostitute his talent in big- budget pictures just to get his name on the marquee. A soldier might grow rigid and authoritarian, and in his heart repalce the ideals of duty and honor with rigid obedience and face. A hard-driving entrepeneur might start to cheat on deals and engage in shady accounting just to get ahead to make a fast buck when possessed. Of course, it's not quite that simple -- the demon has a role to play as well. What desires rise up first are determined by the nature of the demon; a demon of Lust and a Shedite of Vapula will of course suggest different roads to the Pit. But the /particulars/ are determined jointly by the human's nature and memories and the types of sin the Shedite is steeped in. What a corrupted human does will rarely seem out-of-character to their friends and neighbors; what they see are just the bad tendencies the person always had given free rein. But it always feels natural, and easy: what the Shedite suggests is simply what you'd do if you gave up making the deliberate effort to live up to your standard of ethics. When the Shedite leaves, many will slide hellward simply because they see how much easier it is not to make the effort to stand for the right. "Every day a worse sin" is not necessarily a road straight to hanging out in a clock tower taking pot shots at passers-by: to quote Screwtape, "Murder is no better than cards if cards will do the trick. Indeed the safest road to hell is the gradual one -- the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts." - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:53:10 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > Sean McCarthy wrote: > > But Lilim can use various methods to cheat and make people > > more likely to accept, but ultimately it's all about fair payment for > > services rendered. They represent the demons of legend who would, if > > they signed a contract, follow it to the letter. > If it was fair, do you think Hell would use them? They'd all be > working for Marc, wouldn't they? It has nothing to do with 'fair' feh! Hell uses whatever it can to damn souls, and they cheat because they're *demons,* not because being fair and ethical wouldn't work. "best intentions" and all that rot. > because again, the human -doesn't know- that the Lilim is a -demon- > working for Hell and that whatever she asks will likely further Hell's > cause and damn the human's soul a bit. Then there's also all this talk are you serious? no, really: are you *serious?* there are legends of people who go _looking_ for their hearts' desire, find out demons can help them, summon said demons, take what they want *knowing they're damned, and alternately live the rest of their lives knowing they're doomed or seeking some miracle to save them from their stupidity. beyond folklore and movies, there's at least one character on the INC who goes around looking for willing old people who want the Song of Entropy sung on 'em. 'I'll let you live fifty more years in a body half its current age in exchange for your soul.' honest, direct, and some would call that fair. her rationale for the utter lack of pretense? 'Who's going to believe a demon offered them an extended life/eternal youth?' > about resisting a Geas like anyone can just blow it off by saying 'I > don't think I want to repay you.'. Not according to what I've read. In > fact, it seems about as easy for a human to shrug off a Geas as it is > for a human to resist a Shedite. And lest we forget, Lilim can ask i don't think anyone here has said the human resists the Geas itself. i haven't, and i apologize if i implied that. everything i've read to date stipulates that the human refuses _services offered_. there is no Will roll for that. it's up to the PC human to role-play, or the GM to decide how easily he wants this particular Lilim PC to get her Hook. > something of 'equal value' that the human might -never- consider doing, > but will be -forced to- by the Geas. Just because I save your kid's life > doesn't mean I can ask you to kill for me. Not if I was 'being fair'. in times past it did, and in some cultures it still does. besides, there are so many ways to make that palatable, "Y'know the man who almost killed your son? Your only son whose life I saved? Well the man has a brother and he's just kidnapped my friend. I can't involve the police, but I know you're good with a gun, and I would have killed to save your boy if I'd had to. Now I'm asking for your help to kill this man to protect someone dear to me," being just one example. > That's an extreme example, but you see the point. 'I bailed yout out > financially and you agreed to owe me a favour...so go steal from your > father for me.' It's the not telling -what- the favour might be that that's a perfectly valid Geas, but i personally see Lilim as having more subtlty and tact than that. you don't tell people to do stuff you're sure they'll resist. that's just dumb. 'I bailed you out financially, and you agreed you owe me for that, so do me the favor of hacking into Well's Fargo--yeah, I heard you retired from that gig, but it's just one more run--and steal ten grand for me.' > makes it inherantly unfair, no one probably -expects- the kinds of > 'repayment' a demon (and make no mistake, they are demons) is going to > ask for. Lilim are demons, yeah, and most of the time they'll ask for morally repugnant things, things we don't want to do. but let's be honest: we do a LOT of stuff we don't want to do and rationalize it as being for the best, or 'lesser of two evils' or whatever. Lilim take advantage of the human soul to choose and the human mind to rationalize. and you know, some favors can be really small, and they might appear completely innocent. "Hi, Dave, how are you? Remember how I gave you a ride to work the other day? Yeah, glad it saved you cabfare. Well, my uncle's sick and wants to take Communion, but I'm not Catholic and he doesn't have any friends or relatives besides myself. Would you mind coming over and giving me an extra Host when you get back from Mass tomorrow so I can give it to him?" -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:55:30 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim From: Steve Jessop > On Thu, 27 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > > > Lilim force people to make choices. Shedim take people's choices away. What > > part of "taking away peoples' freedom of choice makes Shedim worse than > > Lilim" does not compute, for you? > > The part that doesn't compute for me is "Shedim take away people's freedom > of choice but Lilim don't". The Lilim's target is always free to turn down her offer of help. Not that the alternative is necessarily going to be the least bit desirable, but the choice is still there. Shedim posession, OTOH, precludes the freedom to choose. > Shedim attempt to force their host to do something against their will by > taking over their bodies. If the host makes a Will roll, they avoid doing > it. > > Lilim attempt to force their victim to do something against their will by > pointing a magic gun at them which does Soul damage. If the victim makes a > Will roll, they avoid the gun. They still have to get a hook into a person before they can fire that gun. It's the fact that the intended victim can prevent them from getting that hook that gives the Lilim the upper hand, morality-wise, even if that hand is only a couple of fingers higher. > The Lilim argument that you can turn down their help is a lie - you can't. Certainly you can! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:52:28 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim - -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > > because again, the human -doesn't know- that the Lilim is a -demon- > > working for Hell and that whatever she asks will likely further Hell's > > cause and damn the human's soul a bit. Then there's also all this talk > are you serious? no, really: are you *serious?* there > are legends of people who go _looking_ for their hearts' desire, find out > demons can help them, summon said demons, take what they want *knowing > they're damned, and alternately live the rest of their lives knowing > they're doomed or seeking some miracle to save them from their stupidity. Do you think -anyone- does that nowadays? As Nybbas might say, "That is - -so- passe', babe. You need a new angle, call me back when you have one." As for the INC character, I'd say she's a -damn- rare exception. Remember the rules about not letting humanity know about you. If the average person in this day and age was told that someone is a demon, they'd probably think you were nuts or, if they -believed- you, would probably run away. It's -because- of those stories that many modern people won't want to deal. > > something of 'equal value' that the human might -never- consider doing, > > but will be -forced to- by the Geas. Just because I save your kid's life > > doesn't mean I can ask you to kill for me. Not if I was 'being fair'. > in times past it did, and in some cultures it still does. > besides, there are so many ways to make that palatable, > "Y'know the man who almost killed your son? Your only > son whose life I saved? Well the man has a brother and > he's just kidnapped my friend. I can't involve the > police, but I know you're good with a gun, and I would > have killed to save your boy if I'd had to. Now I'm > asking for your help to kill this man to protect someone > dear to me," > being just one example. Unless, of course, the idea of killing is repugnant to that person, as it is to many. > > That's an extreme example, but you see the point. 'I bailed yout out > > financially and you agreed to owe me a favour...so go steal from your > > father for me.' It's the not telling -what- the favour might be that > that's a perfectly valid Geas, but i personally see Lilim as > having more subtlty and tact than that. you don't tell people to do stuff > you're sure they'll resist. that's just dumb. 'I bailed you out > financially, and you agreed you owe me for that, so do me the favor of > hacking into Well's Fargo--yeah, I heard you retired from that gig, but > it's just one more run--and steal ten grand for me.' It still boils down to: "I bailed you out...risk jail for me." No matter how easy it may have been for said Lilim to get the money. Remember, service and effort are two different things. The service might be easy for the Lilim, but it doesn't have to be for the human..and that's why it's unfair. It's like a rish man giving a million to charity or a poor man giving a hundred. One is -definitely- worth more in a relative sense. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:28:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: IN> Shedim corrupting On Thu, 27 May 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > they 'rev the engine of evil that idles in human minds' and they > convince the host that the corruption 'was their idea'. Now for a RP and > mechanics question. If a Shedite gets a human used to a particular form > of corruption (anyone else think it weird that the Demon of Corruption > is now a Djinn and not a Shedite? Guess that whole Legion thing got Hell > tetchy about that.) will that human -continue- the practice if the > Shedite leaves? Let's say...a Shedite of Andre is shoving a human > towards the child porn industry. If it immerses the host in there for a > few weeks, if it jumps ship, will the host continue doing it? According > to how Malakim view Shedim in the APG, apparently the answer is yes. I just use common sense to game this. If the Shedite starts small, then gradually edges the host into worse and worse deeds, by the time they leave, the person will have gotten so used to it that they may not backslide a drop...it also depends on the person - you can spend two weeks forcing a wholesome, moral person into more and more perverse sexual acts, but when you leave, he may react with horror and regret. Or he may not. It's really the GM's call. Now if a Shedite hops into a nun and just goes chainsaws and sniper rifles all over the town, then spends a week working its way up to cannibalism and vehicular sodomy, when it jumps ship, the nun will almost certainly be completely shocked and horrified at what she's done and will either commit suicide or seek repentance - she won't be 'corrupted' one bit. No shortcuts. > Also, finally, how long does it take a Shedite to just jump ship in an > emergency? There will certainly be a Disturbance, but can most Shedim > hop out before a host dies if they see it coming? Depends on how quick the death is coming. If you jump your host off a building, you have plenty of time to leave, but if your host gets hit with a sniper bullet, time for that dissonance roll.... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:34:51 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 8:52 PM -0700 5/27/99, Steel Angel wrote: >-=|horsefly|=- wrote: > > > > because again, the human -doesn't know- that the Lilim is a -demon- > > > working for Hell and that whatever she asks will likely further Hell's > > > cause and damn the human's soul a bit. Then there's also all this talk > > are you serious? no, really: are you *serious?* there > > are legends of people who go _looking_ for their hearts' desire, find out > > demons can help them, summon said demons, take what they want *knowing > > they're damned, and alternately live the rest of their lives knowing > > they're doomed or seeking some miracle to save them from their stupidity. > > Do you think -anyone- does that nowadays? As Nybbas might say, "That is >-so- passe', babe. You need a new angle, call me back when you have >one." No, we just don't believe it. Haven't you *ever* wanted something, for the good of man and others or not, that you'd give *anything* for? And if you'd know about 1-800-4-LILITH and the cost, you'd never ever consider calling? In this modern world, we don't (generally) believe the Devil is lurking, waiting to barter our soul for Earthly delights in a literal sense. But if people thought it would work, you bet people would try it. (And technically, some people do. Or did when I was in college. We... avoided those people.) > It still boils down to: "I bailed you out...risk jail for me." No >matter how easy it may have been for said Lilim to get the money. >Remember, service and effort are two different things. The service might >be easy for the Lilim, but it doesn't have to be for the human..and >that's why it's unfair. It's like a rish man giving a million to charity >or a poor man giving a hundred. One is -definitely- worth more in a >relative sense. Mm -- I think this misses the point. I used to work as a Desktop Publisher and Computer Services Peon for a Popular Copy Shoppe. People used to come and pay sixty dollars an hour for stuff that frankly I found simple, generally paying specific pro-rates for services like business cards that might take me four minutes, but they'd pay $19.95 for the design and be darn pleased with the result. For me, it was simple. For the customer, they had value for the money because they couldn't do it themselves. The Lilim might be able to get the bail money easily when the person in jail couldn't raise it to save their lives. That person in jail is still having a major need fufilled. That's not inequitious, that's economics in action. (Understand, I think dark Lilim are Infernal in attitude, and Frees generally are the same. Brights are something different. But the mechanic of "it's simple for the Lilim" has nothing to do with the "fairness" of the act.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 02:33:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Eslin Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > > are you serious? no, really: are you *serious?* there > > are legends of people who go _looking_ for their hearts' desire, find out > > demons can help them, summon said demons, take what they want *knowing > > they're damned, and alternately live the rest of their lives knowing > > they're doomed or seeking some miracle to save them from their stupidity. > > Do you think -anyone- does that nowadays? As Nybbas might say, "That is > -so- passe', babe. You need a new angle, call me back when you have > one." Just to drop in a factoid, if an anecdotal one: I went to high school with a couple of people who did that. (I wouldn't've minded if they hadn't caught me reading cheap New Age books and started wanting to trade advice and pointers. :P ) -- Eslin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:49:03 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > On Thu, 27 May 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > > about resisting a Geas like anyone can just blow it off by saying 'I > > don't think I want to repay you.'. Not according to what I've read. In > > fact, it seems about as easy for a human to shrug off a Geas as it is > > for a human to resist a Shedite. And lest we forget, Lilim can ask > i don't think anyone here has said the human resists the > Geas itself. i haven't, and i apologize if i implied that. everything > i've read to date stipulates that the human refuses _services offered_. > there is no Will roll for that. it's up to the PC human to role-play, or > the GM to decide how easily he wants this particular Lilim PC to get her > Hook. IIRC, the human also has to undo whatever it was the Lilim did. If she saved the life of your child, you'll have to kill it. If she saved your company from certain bankruptcy, you'll have to destroy it yourself. And so on. This is part of what makes what the Lilim do unfair. It's always the Lilim that is in control, who makes the rules. It's not two equal partners making a bargain, it's one person using another, whether the circumstances it happens under can be construed to be fair or not. The Lilim aren't out to do fair bargains, they're out to use people, pure and simple. Whether their way of doing it is better or worse than what the Shedim do is a matter of opinion. > > something of 'equal value' that the human might -never- consider doing, > > but will be -forced to- by the Geas. Just because I save your kid's life > > doesn't mean I can ask you to kill for me. Not if I was 'being fair'. > in times past it did, and in some cultures it still does. > besides, there are so many ways to make that palatable, > "Y'know the man who almost killed your son? Your only > son whose life I saved? Well the man has a brother and > he's just kidnapped my friend. I can't involve the > police, but I know you're good with a gun, and I would > have killed to save your boy if I'd had to. Now I'm > asking for your help to kill this man to protect someone > dear to me," > being just one example. Sure, but the Lilim doesn't have to do that. She can just hand you a gun, point to a random person on the street and say "Blast away. You owe me this." and unless you're -really- lucky, you'll have no choice. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:21:15 +0100 From: hjalkar@redbrick.dcu.ie (Kevin Walsh) Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, May 28, 1999 at 12:50:17AM +0100, Steve Jessop wrote: > > believe the result was a ruling/agreement that a Lilim's resonance depends > > upon an agreement. > > Well, if that's the ruling, that's the ruling. I don't remember it, > possibly because it's not the impression I've ever got from the books. > I don't remember it either. I know it was suggested. > In my (heretical, since non-canon) opinion, geas levels *don't* work, > although I haven't come up with anything better yet. I personally do not > think that it is fair for a Lilim to subject her victim to one day's > strenuous effort, in return for something which cost her nothing, that > would have cost the victim one day's strenuous effort, that he may or may > not have decided was worth it left to his own devices, and that he may or > may not have realised at the time constituted a deal rather than a gift. > I don't happen to think it's fair either. And that's precisely why they should be kept. I'm in favour of high-contrast settings myself, and I see no reason why Lilim should be less evil than other demons (or Shedim more so for that matter). Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "It is an impressive thing to hear a helpless woman damned in every item of her life, every corner of her soul. For good reason, no one accused by the Temple has ever been found innocent." Ser Visal's Tale, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:45:40 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Song of Fire Disturbance question At 11:37 PM -0500 5/23/99, Amo Nympham wrote: >I would do this on a case-by-case thing. in this case, I would have the >disturbance be for everyone he killed. he did this intentionally. now if >by accident an angel started a fire while fighting a demon, and a building >burned down, I might let him slide on the noise. I'd probably be a little more strict. The only way I'd nullify the Disturbance is if a human, exercising his free will, knowingly became responsible for the destruction. If it were a bomb, for instance, rather than a fire the Demon would still get the full Disturbance if he rigged up a doorbell to set it off, so that the UPS guy accidentally sets off the bomb. The demon would have to tell the UPS guy "This doorbell is connected to a bomb in the basement of St. Yorbi's Hospital, capable of blowing the entire west wing to kingdom come. Ringing it will set the bomb off." If the human still pushed the button after hearing that, then there's no Disturbance from the resulting explosion. Note that the Demon is free to lie about why the bomb was set ("The Twilight Brotherhood put it there, and it's your duty as an Initiate to detonate it."), to use threats to convince the human to set off the bomb ("If you don't push the doorbell, I'll eat this kitten!"). Also, if the human hears the required information, and doesn't believe the Demon, but pushes the button anyway ("Ha, Ha, Billy, I wish I had half your imagination at your age!"), no Disturbance. There's also one more situation where I'd eliminate disturbance. Going back to the fire example, say a Janitor carrying a working fire extinguisher comes across the burning wastebasket. Instead of putting out the fire, he says to himself "You know, I'm sick and tired of this job. I think I'll let this one burn." without /any/ coercion, mundane or supernatural, from anyone else. In the case where a human who knows he's capable of stopping the destruction comes along, and completely freely decides not to, and knows the potential extent of the destruction, he's effectively taking responsibility for what happens next. The fire then causes no new Disturbance. Comments? ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presently serving Ashley, Calabite Captain of Fire, the Demon of Fuses Triad317@mypad.com | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@flashmail.com | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:54:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim - -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > it's a pity Hell doesn't more often get mired in said contempt.... Steel Angel answered: > I would say, from the IPG, that demons don't do this as often as > they would like because well, if they do, They Lose The War. - -=|horsefly|=- replied: > i'd don't think you even need to reference the IPG for this > point, though citing it indicates that canon stipulates demons > aren't stupid and haven't fallen for that ploy in significant > degree or numbers for Heaven's victory yet. No, you can cite something a lot older and more authoritative: "If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?" -- Matthew 12:26 Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:56:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Steel Angel wrote: > This raises an interesting canon question. -Is- there any such > thing as a Celestial being that is -not- an angel, demon, or > variant thereof? I don't think so. I think "celestial" in the IN sense was coined exactly to mean "angel or demon, indifferently." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:04:42 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Distilling what others have said on this thread before, it seems to me that the most hellish part of Lilim operations is the way it ignores the "moral cost." The returned favor from a geas is roughly equal to the initial favor in terms of energy or time or risk, but there is no guarantee that it will be equal on a moral plane. A Grey or Renegade Lilim could run a geas like "I saved your kid from certain death; now you go save that kid over there." A more typical hellish Lilim will run it like "I saved your kid from certain death; now you go kill that kid over there." Both are "a life for a life," but... (Of course, a Lilim *could* run a few morally balanced geases on a target, just to lull them into accepting bigger and bigger geases, then unexpectedly upping the moral ante. I'd expect it to be a moderately common strategy.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:09:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Shedim corrupting Pee Kitty wrote: > Now if a Shedite hops into a nun and just goes chainsaws and > sniper rifles all over the town, then spends a week working its > way up to cannibalism and vehicular sodomy, when it jumps ship, > the nun will almost certainly be completely shocked and horrified > at what she's done and will either commit suicide or seek > repentance - she won't be 'corrupted' one bit. She -- or the people around her -- might also seek exorcism. Just as Lilim are the "deal-with-the-devil" demons, Shedim are the possessing demons -- the ones for which exorcism was specifically invented. I once suggested some exorcism rules for IN; I can't recall if any such rules (mine or another's) have made it into the canon yet, but they're needed, if only for Shedim. (She might also seek psychiatric help. And nothing prevents her seeking psychiatric help, exorcism, and repentance all together, except that the professionals involved with psychiatry and exorcism tend to not like mixing their methods with each other.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:14:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Diane J Donaldson Subject: IN> Reach out and touch someone Am I correct in assuming that Shedim and Kyriotates can posses someone over the phone, at only a -2 to their rolls? Gives a whole new meaning to "Reach out and touch someone"... djd ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:17:19 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > > The Lilim argument that you can turn down their help is a lie - you can't. > > Certainly you can! Looked it up in FoTM. It says basically "Once a Lilim fulfills your need, the only way to stop the geas-hook going in is to turn down her help". The way I read that, it means "If you can turn down her help, and you do, she doesn't get the hook." I don't read it as saying "She must give you a chance to turn down her help, or else the hook doesn't go in." I don't think the line in FoTM implies that at all - situations can be manufactured where you can't turn down the Lilim's help, or more likely where you don't turn down her help because you didn't know in advance that it was a deal not a gift. I can't find anywhere that says a Lilim has to ask for a favour in return *before* her victim accepts her help, or even that her victim needs to be consciously aware that she is helping him. She just has to tell him, when she wants to activate the hook into a geas 'Remember X. That was me." Random example - if someone gets run over, Lilim Reads him, he passes out, then she takes him to hospital, I say she gets the hook. Presumably you say she doesn't, because she didn't offer to take him to hospital in return for "a little favour later on"? I agree with Kevin Walsh - it's not fair, Lilim aren't fair, Lilith is a hypocrite, and that's the way it should be. Even if that did sound like a cheerleader chant. I'd probably make the Bright Lilim resonance work the 'nice' way, though, if my PCs were ever likely to come across one. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:17:52 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Violent Oaths On Thu, 27 May 1999, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>"He's not evil, is he?" > "Not as far as I know." > "So why can't he stay?" > "Because I don't trust him. He has no honour." > > Yah. There, you need to reform the human, get him to do some honorable > things, and then grab the Malakite by his ears and say "Now, resonate on > him! Heaven offers chances for redemption, remember!" He knows that (very well) - that's not the problem. The problem is that there have been a lot of demons in town lately, the Malakite is jumpy and not in a mood to trust people, and even if the human in question was 'reformed', he probably still wouldn't develop a sense of honour. The character in question isn't *evil*, or particularly selfish compared to humans on average. He just has no sense of honour - no code of principles by which he lives. Quite a lot of perfectly good humans don't have any strong sense of honour - Malakim have as much difficulty dealing with that fact as Seraphim do with the fact that many angels lie. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:25:03 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim - -----Original Message----- From: Anders Gabrielsson >On Thu, 27 May 1999, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > >> everything >> i've read to date stipulates that the human refuses _services offered_. >> there is no Will roll for that. it's up to the PC human to role-play, or >> the GM to decide how easily he wants this particular Lilim PC to get her >> Hook. > >IIRC, the human also has to undo whatever it was the Lilim did. If she >saved the life of your child, you'll have to kill it. If she saved your >company from certain bankruptcy, you'll have to destroy it yourself. And >so on. So the trick is not to accept the Lilim's offer of help in the first place. Just say "No, thank you," when she offers you help to begin with, and you're free of having to worry about what price she'll try to exact later on. >This is part of what makes what the Lilim do unfair. It's always the Lilim >that is in control, who makes the rules. Except that she is bound by the rule that if her intended victim refuses her initial help, she is completely incapable of Geasing them. >The Lilim aren't out >to do fair bargains, they're out to use people, pure and simple. Whether >their way of doing it is better or worse than what the Shedim do is a >matter of opinion. Since the Lilim's way of using people will not always leave an Infernal stain, while the Shedim's way almost invariably will, that makes the Lilim's way better, if only by degrees. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:58:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > From: Anders Gabrielsson > > >On Thu, 27 May 1999, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > > > >> everything > >> i've read to date stipulates that the human refuses _services offered_. > >> there is no Will roll for that. it's up to the PC human to role-play, or > >> the GM to decide how easily he wants this particular Lilim PC to get her > >> Hook. > > > >IIRC, the human also has to undo whatever it was the Lilim did. If she > >saved the life of your child, you'll have to kill it. If she saved your > >company from certain bankruptcy, you'll have to destroy it yourself. And > >so on. > > So the trick is not to accept the Lilim's offer of help in the first place. > Just say "No, thank you," when she offers you help to begin with, and you're > free of having to worry about what price she'll try to exact later on. OTOH, she doesn't have to present it as a deal, I think. I may be wrong here, though. If I'm right, the only way to be safe from Lilim is to never accept help from anyone. It's basically the same thing if they do have to present it as a deal - the only way to be sure you're safe from Lilim is to never accept favors against unspecified payment from anyone. A difficult way to live, I think. > >This is part of what makes what the Lilim do unfair. It's always the Lilim > >that is in control, who makes the rules. > > Except that she is bound by the rule that if her intended victim refuses her > initial help, she is completely incapable of Geasing them. That still doesn't make them equal partners, though. They can't screw you over any way they want, but they still screw you over. *shrugs* > >The Lilim aren't out > >to do fair bargains, they're out to use people, pure and simple. Whether > >their way of doing it is better or worse than what the Shedim do is a > >matter of opinion. > > Since the Lilim's way of using people will not always leave an Infernal > stain, while the Shedim's way almost invariably will, that makes the Lilim's > way better, if only by degrees. *shakes head* I just can't see this. The Lilim want you to go to Hell. The Shedim want you to go to Hell. The Shedim might have a better way to do it. Does that make the Lilim any nicer? Is a murderer with a knife less of a murderer than one with a machinegun? They have the same purpose, the same driving goal, they just don't use exactly the same method. The Lilim do the best they can to get you to Hell. Whether their way is more or less effective than the Shedim's doesn't matter, IMO. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1241 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.