From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 28 18:13:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21298 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:13:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA23041 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:13:50 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:13:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199905282313.SAA23041@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1242 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1242 In this digest: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Song of Motion, Celestial version Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim corrupting Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Reach out and touch someone Re: IN> Reach out and touch someone Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim corrupting Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Reach out and touch someone Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Song of Fire Disturbance question Re: IN> Song of Fire Disturbance question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:58:26 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 9:49 AM +0200 5/28/99, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >On Thu, 27 May 1999, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > > > On Thu, 27 May 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > > > > about resisting a Geas like anyone can just blow it off by saying 'I > > > don't think I want to repay you.'. Not according to what I've read. In > > > fact, it seems about as easy for a human to shrug off a Geas as it is > > > for a human to resist a Shedite. And lest we forget, Lilim can ask > > i don't think anyone here has said the human resists the > > Geas itself. i haven't, and i apologize if i implied that. everything > > i've read to date stipulates that the human refuses _services offered_. > > there is no Will roll for that. it's up to the PC human to role-play, or > > the GM to decide how easily he wants this particular Lilim PC to get her > > Hook. > >IIRC, the human also has to undo whatever it was the Lilim did. If she >saved the life of your child, you'll have to kill it. If she saved your >company from certain bankruptcy, you'll have to destroy it yourself. And >so on. > >This is part of what makes what the Lilim do unfair. It's always the Lilim >that is in control, who makes the rules. It's not two equal partners >making a bargain, it's one person using another, whether the circumstances >it happens under can be construed to be fair or not. The Lilim aren't out >to do fair bargains, they're out to use people, pure and simple. Whether >their way of doing it is better or worse than what the Shedim do is a >matter of opinion. Dark Lilim, the Demonic Band... I utterly agree with you. They are on the Infernal Side for a *reason.* They're looking to get hooks in you. But technically and by the rules, it is *fair* in terms of "you have gotten this value from me, you must give equal value back to me." It is a demonic fairness -- the fairness of "I saved your life, now kill the man next to you in balance." It's *supposed* to be Evil. Lilim don't get to simply force a man who they've done nothing for to do things -- this distinguishes them from the Shedim (who I think are an order of magnitude worse because their hosts remember doing it *as* *if* *it* *was* *their* *idea.* "I couldn't help myself -- this woman told me to kill Bob and then I had to" is a horrible, Hellish moment. "I... don't know why I killed Bob. I just did and I was laughing -- it was like watching my hands do it by themselves. I had no reason I--" is, to my mind, far far far far far worse. For the record, I'm a great believer in the house rule that says that a Lilim's target must accept the deal for the Geas. The Lilim makes little sense to me otherwise. They're the ones with the Deals with the Devil, after all. Signed in Blood -- or at least with a hook on your soul. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:00:04 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim From: Anders Gabrielsson >On Fri, 28 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > >> So the trick is not to accept the Lilim's offer of help in the first place. >> Just say "No, thank you," when she offers you help to begin with, and you're >> free of having to worry about what price she'll try to exact later on. > >OTOH, she doesn't have to present it as a deal, I think. I may be wrong >here, though. If I'm right, the only way to be safe from Lilim is to never >accept help from anyone. It's basically the same thing if they do have to >present it as a deal - the only way to be sure you're safe from Lilim is >to never accept favors against unspecified payment from anyone. A >difficult way to live, I think. Either way, the cause of Hell is furthered. I don't dispute that Lilim are evil; I just don't view them as being as evil as Shedim. >> Except that she is bound by the rule that if her intended victim refuses her >> initial help, she is completely incapable of Geasing them. > >That still doesn't make them equal partners, though. They can't screw you >over any way they want, but they still screw you over. *shrugs* But you still have a better chance of avoiding being screwed over by a Lilim than you do of avoiding being screwed up by a Shedim. >> Since the Lilim's way of using people will not always leave an Infernal >> stain, while the Shedim's way almost invariably will, that makes the Lilim's >> way better, if only by degrees. > >*shakes head* I just can't see this. The Lilim want you to go to Hell. The >Shedim want you to go to Hell. The Shedim might have a better way to do >it. Does that make the Lilim any nicer? Yes, if only bcause it's possible to avoid the Lilim's way by turning down her help before she gets a hook in you. The Lilim don't force you to do things in the same way that the Shedim do- While a Lilim calling in a Geas is essentially holding a gun to her victim's head, unless the victim accepted help from her previously. The Shedim, OTOH, not only makes its victim put the gun to his own head, it can make him pull the trigger too. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:17:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > From: Anders Gabrielsson > > >*shakes head* I just can't see this. The Lilim want you to go to Hell. The > >Shedim want you to go to Hell. The Shedim might have a better way to do > >it. Does that make the Lilim any nicer? > > Yes, if only bcause it's possible to avoid the Lilim's way by turning down > her help before she gets a hook in you. The Lilim don't force you to do > things in the same way that the Shedim do- While a Lilim calling in a Geas > is essentially holding a gun to her victim's head, unless the victim > accepted help from her previously. So the Lilims' lack of ability makes them less evil? IMO, it's the intention that makes you evil, not what you accomplish. Being incompetent isn't grounds for leniency when it comes to damning people to eternity in Hell, IMO. > The Shedim, OTOH, not only makes its victim put the gun to his own head, it > can make him pull the trigger too. Not without taking Dissonance. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:39:19 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim From: Anders Gabrielsson > >So the Lilims' lack of ability makes them less evil? No, the *Shedim's* lack of ability makes them more evil. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:19:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Diane J Donaldson Subject: IN> Song of Motion, Celestial version I have another question. How far can you teleport something with the Celestial Song of Motion? I interpret the description as being that the object must be in sight, and that you can teleport it a variable distance depending on your Song skill and the CD. Song skill 6, CD 6, you get 60 miles; Song skill 1, CD 3, you get 3 feet. However, it is written ambiguously enough that it could also be that your Song skill and CD determine how far away the object can be if it is still within sight (via a real-time video link, for example, if the skill is 6 and CD 6), and the distance you can teleport it to is infinite, as long as it is in sight or you've been there before. Version one has a very skilled singer sending someone standing nearby no more than 60 miles, while version two has a very skilled singer sending someone standing anywhere within 60 miles anywhere on earth. Version one seems to make the most sense, but I'd like someone else's input. djd ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:53:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > From: Anders Gabrielsson > > > >So the Lilims' lack of ability makes them less evil? > > No, the *Shedim's* lack of ability makes them more evil. Huh? The Shedim can do something the Lilim can't - forcing people to do things against their will without doing anything in return - and that is a - -lack- of ability? I don't get it. Still, whether you consider one of them more able than the other or not, in what way does their abilities affect their evilness or lack thereof? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:30:27 -0500 From: Seth Buntain Subject: Re: IN> Shedim corrupting >Pee Kitty wrote: >She -- or the people around her -- might also seek exorcism. Just >as Lilim are the "deal-with-the-devil" demons, Shedim are the >possessing demons -- the ones for which exorcism was specifically >invented. I once suggested some exorcism rules for IN; I can't >recall if any such rules (mine or another's) have made it into >the canon yet, but they're needed, if only for Shedim. Sorcerers can exorcise. See the Corporeal Players Guide. Some priests learn this bit of sorcery just for that skill. >Earl - -- Seth Buntain Northwestern University enthar@nwu.edu "Magic is always the best solution, especially reliable magic." - -from the program 'fortune'. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:19:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 5:22 PM -0700 5/27/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> > Oh I don't know. I'm sure bilking people out of their life savings, >> >making them take out loans they can't repay, then aiming them at >> >organized crime to repay their debts is really pretty awful. >> >> Yeah, but you can only do that once -- and it may take several Will rolls >> to overcome (being a multistage plan, not a single act of vileness). What >> do you do for an encore? > > Oh, I'm sure you can keep all the little things coming. No reason you >can't intersperse ruining lives with vandalism and the occasional bar >fight. And then beatings, rape, murder... Remember, every day. Every day the Shedite has to do something _worse_. It takes time to buy things, time to get them torn down. Yeah, you can do this stuff, but it's a _very_ rare Shedite who manages to stay in long enough for that to work. [...] >> I define Shedim by a dream I had, actually. > > > >> I woke up wanting to wash my brain out. > > Your dream. Obviously something you -are- capable of contemplating? I'm an author, a GM, and watch TV -- I _am_ capable of _contemplating_ many things. I suspect most humans are. Actually doing them? I'm capable of it, probably, if I had to. But there are things I Would Not Do, of my own free will. Kill a baby? Poison, smothering, strangulation, dropping from a great height, cutting the throat... Would I do it of my own choice? I sure don't think so! Did I have a dream that disturbed me? Yes. And, as in so many dreams, I wasn't strictly in control of it. (Usually this manifests as being in a car where the brake and gas pedals switch sides randomly. O:p ) That's the Shedite resonance. They put their host in a dream-like state, where everything's not quite real, and the human's not quite in control... >> Some humans will keep it up -- they had fun. Some will be disgusted -- >> _because_ they had fun. > > But it will always be there, in the back of their mind...'I enjoyed >this.' Seeds for some later Hellish work. Or seeds for joining the other side, to atone for the evil one did. >> I'd probably let it happen near-instant -- however, in combat, I'd say >> that it would take a round. Otherwise, Shedim would never be dissonant! > > Save for their huge 'must get worse every single day' thing, neh? ;) Hey, they only have to corrupt _one_ host a little more... But yeah, never get dissonant for a host dying under them. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:26:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 7:53 PM -0700 5/27/99, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Thu, 27 May 1999, Steel Angel wrote: >> That's an extreme example, but you see the point. 'I bailed yout out >> financially and you agreed to owe me a favour...so go steal from your >> father for me.' It's the not telling -what- the favour might be that > that's a perfectly valid Geas, but i personally see Lilim as >having more subtlty and tact than that. you don't tell people to do stuff >you're sure they'll resist. that's just dumb. 'I bailed you out >financially, and you agreed you owe me for that, so do me the favor of >hacking into Well's Fargo--yeah, I heard you retired from that gig, but >it's just one more run--and steal ten grand for me.' Among other resons, Lilim try to make the Geas palatable lest the rotten ingrate human blow all his Essence resisting something that is presented flat and raw and icky. Because soaking up the dissonance is a bummer. (And then there are the quickie Geases. "You want a new CD, eh? Okay, here's $20 for the CD. Now, be a guide to this place instead of mugging me.") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:37:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 11:21 AM +0100 5/28/99, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Fri, May 28, 1999 at 12:50:17AM +0100, Steve Jessop wrote: >> > believe the result was a ruling/agreement that a Lilim's resonance depends >> > upon an agreement. >> >> Well, if that's the ruling, that's the ruling. I don't remember it, >> possibly because it's not the impression I've ever got from the books. >> >I don't remember it either. I know it was suggested. It's one take. It's not canon. However, if you can refuse it, it _is_ canon that she gets no hook. (FotM, p. 28.) I'm not sure if it's gotten into print yet, but if you _don't know_ who your benefactor is, or that you had one, then the Lilim hasn't connected well enough. There needs to be that little, "Oh, don't worry. I'll take care of it." So that the person _knows_ the favor had a source. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:44:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Reach out and touch someone At 10:14 AM -0400 5/28/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: >Am I correct in assuming that Shedim and Kyriotates can posses someone >over the phone, at only a -2 to their rolls? Gives a whole new meaning to >"Reach out and touch someone"... Yup, and yup. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 99 14:00:11 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Reach out and touch someone >At 10:14 AM -0400 5/28/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: >>Am I correct in assuming that Shedim and Kyriotates can posses someone >>over the phone, at only a -2 to their rolls? Gives a whole new meaning to >>"Reach out and touch someone"... > >Yup, and yup. "Hello, Mr. Occupant? This is Bobiel with Heavenly Polls, and we're conducting a survey of (darn, whiffed my roll) people in your area on the subject of unexplained phenomenae (did it again, darn the luck). It will only take a few minutes of your time, sir-" *BINK* "Ah, no thank you, perhaps some other time." ".... huh? What? Who is this?" *click* Redneck (who says all telemarketers are evil?) Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... but his sig hasn't -- redneck@detnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:34:51 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim From: Anders Gabrielsson >On Fri, 28 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > >> From: Anders Gabrielsson >> > >> >So the Lilims' lack of ability makes them less evil? >> >> No, the *Shedim's* lack of ability makes them more evil. > >Huh? The Shedim can do something the Lilim can't - forcing people to do >things against their will without doing anything in return - and that is a >-lack- of ability? I don't get it. The Lilim can do something the Shedim can't - shackling others (even Celestials) with Geasa (which is something theShedim can't do) - and that is a lack of ability on the Shedim's part. And Lilim who learn the Song of Posession are able to make their hosts do things that leave them needing their help, while Shedim are unable to come even that close to replicating the Lilim's ability to Geas others. >Still, whether you consider one of them more able than the other or not, >in what way does their abilities affect their evilness or lack thereof? Since you're the one who postulated a lack of ability on the part of the Lilim affecting their evil relative to Shedim, perhaps you should be the one answering this. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:49:46 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim corrupting On Fri, 28 May 1999, Earl Wajenberg wrote: [snip nun possessed by Shedite] > (She might also seek psychiatric help. And nothing prevents her > seeking psychiatric help, exorcism, and repentance all together, > except that the professionals involved with psychiatry and exorcism > tend to not like mixing their methods with each other.) Jesuits frequently mix the psychoanalytic method with prayer, and if you can convince them the need is legitimate, exorcism. according to visiting Jesuits i met at my parish, anyway... though they were reluctant to admit to the use of exorcism as the first course of action on someone who might be possessed. -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:24:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > From: Anders Gabrielsson > > >Still, whether you consider one of them more able than the other or not, > >in what way does their abilities affect their evilness or lack thereof? > > Since you're the one who postulated a lack of ability on the part of the > Lilim affecting their evil relative to Shedim, perhaps you should be the one > answering this. You're the one saying Shedim are more evil, and I have yet to get a reasonable explanation for it. I say they are equally evil, since they have the same goal, they just use different methods. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:43:44 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim From: Anders Gabrielsson >On Fri, 28 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > >> From: Anders Gabrielsson >> >> >Still, whether you consider one of them more able than the other or not, >> >in what way does their abilities affect their evilness or lack thereof? >> >> Since you're the one who postulated a lack of ability on the part of the >> Lilim affecting their evil relative to Shedim, perhaps you should be the one >> answering this. > >You're the one saying Shedim are more evil, and I have yet to get a >reasonable explanation for it. I say they are equally evil, since they >have the same goal, they just use different methods. And as I have repeatedly stated, the Lilim's methods are not as evil as the Shedim's, if only by degrees. Lilim exploit free will. Shedim do their best to destroy it. And since free will is generally viewed as a Good Thing, then I daresay it would be reasonable to decide that methods which take this Good Thing away are more evil than methods which do not. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:54:48 -0400 From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Reach out and touch someone At 02:44 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >At 10:14 AM -0400 5/28/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: >>Am I correct in assuming that Shedim and Kyriotates can posses someone >>over the phone, at only a -2 to their rolls? Gives a whole new meaning to >>"Reach out and touch someone"... > >Yup, and yup. Yikes, I never thought of that. Would their be disturbance for taking Celestial Form and would it lead to the old host or the new? Talk about a means for a quick get away or travel... > >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:21:58 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Thu, 27 May 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > > > because again, the human -doesn't know- that the Lilim is a -demon- > > > working for Hell and that whatever she asks will likely further Hell's > > > cause and damn the human's soul a bit. Then there's also all this talk > > are you serious? no, really: are you *serious?* there > > are legends of people who go _looking_ for their hearts' desire, find out > > demons can help them, summon said demons, take what they want *knowing > > they're damned, and alternately live the rest of their lives knowing > > they're doomed or seeking some miracle to save them from their stupidity. > Do you think -anyone- does that nowadays? As Nybbas might say, "That is > -so- passe', babe. You need a new angle, call me back when you have one." you don't pay attention to the 900-line psychics or "love lines," do you? sure, it throws the whole honesty of "i'm a demon from Hell here to collect your soul in exchange for what you want" out the window, but it's still being *done* and done often. --by agents of Media no less. > As for the INC character, I'd say she's a -damn- rare exception. i didn't say she wan't exceptional or an example of what's typically done. i said she's still out there, existing and doing so quite happily and faring well for herself. i don't recall which Word she serves under, but i think she's either a Lilim of Fate or she's a Free. > Remember the rules about not letting humanity know about you. If the rules get broken or bent all the time. again, her whole technique revolves around blatancy and counting on humanity to discount stories of her actions as the ravings of the senile and decrepid. it's a canny way to go, and one i'm sure several Demon Princes would smirk in appreciation of, turning a blind eye as long as she doesn't get caught, and probably leaving her to Heaven's forces if she does. > average person in this day and age was told that someone is a demon, > they'd probably think you were nuts or, if they -believed- you, would exactly why her scheme works. i don't recall how often she succeeds, but i got the impression that her successes more than make up for how often she makes her spiel. besides, considering her target audience again, i can see many of them incredulously taking her up on it. now she's Sung for them and they're young, invigorated, and beholden to her. they may as well make use of their renewed youth! > probably run away. It's -because- of those stories that many modern > people won't want to deal. any far-thinking, religious, or superstitious person, sure. but really, how many of those are there among six-plus *billion* "talking monkeys"? (love _The Prophecy_ for that phrase, love it...!) [snip hypothetical example-mine] > Unless, of course, the idea of killing is repugnant to that person, as > it is to many. in which case the Lilim either has chosen unwisely the act she's compelling her target to perform or much rely upon the force of her Geas to get the job done. and even if it's repugnant to the person, they're still going to start taking damage from resisting if they fail the Will roll. i'm not saying Lilim are nice about their favors, but the canny ones will couch things so their targets don't resist--not because Lilim care what their targets think or want, but because evincing sympathy (and maybe singing Charm...) is more likely to prevent Dissonance. > > > That's an extreme example, but you see the point. 'I bailed yout out > > > financially and you agreed to owe me a favour...so go steal from your > > > father for me.' It's the not telling -what- the favour might be that > > that's a perfectly valid Geas, but i personally see Lilim as > > having more subtlty and tact than that. you don't tell people to do stuff > > you're sure they'll resist. that's just dumb. 'I bailed you out > > financially, and you agreed you owe me for that, so do me the favor of > > hacking into Well's Fargo--yeah, I heard you retired from that gig, but > > it's just one more run--and steal ten grand for me.' > It still boils down to: "I bailed you out...risk jail for me." No hey, you were willing to risk ruin by yourself. you've proven yourself to be the gambling sort by risking your fortune, and then by taking Jane Lilim's help. she saved your ass last time. so roll the dice again, and pray the authorities don't catch wind this time. --an Infernal viewpoint to be sure, but there are some humans who will cede to its "logic." > matter how easy it may have been for said Lilim to get the money. i have never seen the point in arguing fairness here. i have a paper due and need to give my professor two copies of it. i'm not allowed to print both at a school lab, so i can either go to a campus copy machine and pay $.10 for each page i want copied or jog downtown and pay $.05-03 per page. is it fair for the school to charge more than a commercial business? who cares! i have a choice. i pick whichever method saves me more effort. by way of another example, a child has a lemon tree and makes lemonade to sell during summer for $.25 a glass. you can buy a glass of from her, be refreshed and go on your way; you can suffer in the heat of summer; you can elect to go elsewhere and pay for something possibly larger but undoubtably more expensive; you can wait till you get home and drink whatever you want. the point remains: she made lemonade and is offering it to you for a price. if she were to charge $.50 would it still be a good price to you? $1? for a larger glass, maybe? Lilim work the same way, except you don't know what they're going to charge until you've already accepted their favor. she did good by the favor to you, right? well, now you owe her. what it cost her doesn't enter into things. > Remember, service and effort are two different things. The service might > be easy for the Lilim, but it doesn't have to be for the human..and it doesn't have to be, but a wise or cunning human can make it easy. the ease comes especially soon when one abandons one's scruples and finds a way to _get things done_, "ends justifying the means" style. and that's IMHO much more damning than doing something morally repugnant. do something you squirm over and you figure it's forced, maybe you even *repent* and go on to make up for things! very bad from a Hellish perspective. do something the _easy way_ and the load comes off, you don't have to think about it anymore, and you forget about the moral corners you cut to accomplish your task. and with Fate, maybe you'll keep cutting those corners in the future. that's the method Lilim use. savvy Lilim, at any rate.... > that's why it's unfair. It's like a rish man giving a million to charity > or a poor man giving a hundred. One is -definitely- worth more in a > relative sense. say in your example that the rich man gave proportionately to the poor man. what then? > - Abracax: Shedite of Riots > -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ "I'm all right.... Nothing hurt but my pride.... Nothing broken... but my heart." --Dr. Harleen Quinzel, aka Harley Quinn, BATMAN Gotham Adventures, #10 "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper "Ambush yourselves some Girl Scouts." --Fenris Lorsrai "Vampires, tough little cookies. Werewolves, the big blue fuzzy thing from Sesame Street--cookies ain't got a chance." --Simon "Darknight" Rafe "Damn it, Senator! You promised me these men would be decently treated." "The were decently treated: they were decently fed... and then they were decently shot." --Fletcher and the Senator, THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES "All I am after is a just life, at the end of which I can laugh as I die." --ARCADIA OF MY YOUTH, end credits lyrics "Okay, that's it. Screw you guys--I'm goin' home! Talking poo is where I draw the line." --Cartman, SOUTH PARK "It was a different time: a time of blood and guns and killings.... It was a time when killers needed saints, for so much of God's good work was being done." --SAINT OF KILLERS #4, Garth Ennis "Now spit." --Lone Watie, THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES "You better bury Ned right. You better not cut up nor otherwise harm no whores. Or I'll come back and kill every one of you sons of bitches." --William Munny, THE UNFORGIVEN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:39:12 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > On Thu, 27 May 1999, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > > i don't think anyone here has said the human resists the > > Geas itself. i haven't, and i apologize if i implied that. everything > > i've read to date stipulates that the human refuses _services offered_. > > there is no Will roll for that. it's up to the PC human to role-play, or > > the GM to decide how easily he wants this particular Lilim PC to get her > > Hook. > IIRC, the human also has to undo whatever it was the Lilim did. If she > saved the life of your child, you'll have to kill it. If she saved your > company from certain bankruptcy, you'll have to destroy it yourself. And > so on. i don't remember mention of this, but it seems perfectly in line with Hellish irony. Kobal would approve. > This is part of what makes what the Lilim do unfair. It's always the Lilim unfair, unfair! i haven't been arguing that Lilim are unfair. they don't have to be. they're demons, fer cryin' out loud! Lilim, as i've been arguing, _don't remove free will from the equation when it comes to dragging souls (human or angelic) to Hell_. they *use* free will as the instrument of their target's damnation. that's all i've been arguing. the methodology of Lilim vs. the methology of Shedim, and which method is by consequence worse. what i haven't said up until now is that the Lilim method is in my view the worse of the two because it perverts human choice by using freedom against itself. Shedim over-ride their hosts' desires (sure, they _say_ the host wants to do those horrible things, but c'mon, you'd think they were Balseraphs for all those who believe the Corruptors' propaganda...) and force the humans to do things. if the human remembers those acts with an inclination towards repeating them, so much the better for Hell. if not, there's still the carnage and suffering that was inflicted which will weigh on the former host's conscience until he dies. > that is in control, who makes the rules. It's not two equal partners > making a bargain, it's one person using another, whether the circumstances and humans do this to each other all the time. what's your point? > it happens under can be construed to be fair or not. The Lilim aren't out > to do fair bargains, they're out to use people, pure and simple. Whether no argument. > their way of doing it is better or worse than what the Shedim do is a > matter of opinion. well, from my perspective it was the heart of this argument's thread, but be that as it may .... [snip duplicitous Lilim speech mimicing sympathy and urge to murder] > Sure, but the Lilim doesn't have to do that. She can just hand you a gun, didn't say she did. i said if she were smart she would, because of something good ol' Carnige wrote: _How to Win Friends and Influence People_. even feigned concern will net you more than a cold-hearted "Do this for me" Geas. IMG, good role-playing to manipulate the target without even using Songs will increase the difficulty that the Geased is rolling to resist. > point to a random person on the street and say "Blast away. You owe me > this." and unless you're -really- lucky, you'll have no choice. nope. even then, you still have a choice: fulfill the Geas, or die. you want to sacrifice yourself for some random joe on the street that Martha Lilim just told you to kill, that's fine. inconvenient for her, but she can find someone else to get things done. to me, Geasing someone in the manner you suggest has no subtlty, no finesse. in fine, it's wasting a perfectly good Geas. --not that the target would have a better chance of resisting something else equally deporable, mind you. -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:43:55 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: [snip] > OTOH, she doesn't have to present it as a deal, I think. I may be wrong > here, though. If I'm right, the only way to be safe from Lilim is to never > accept help from anyone. It's basically the same thing if they do have to > present it as a deal - the only way to be sure you're safe from Lilim is > to never accept favors against unspecified payment from anyone. A > difficult way to live, I think. Malphas must *love* Lilim for all the trust they erode in humanity. done pervasively enough, that's exactly what would happen. i suspect for this reason Lilim of Factions do just that! thanks :) -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ "I'm all right.... Nothing hurt but my pride.... Nothing broken... but my heart." --Dr. Harleen Quinzel, aka Harley Quinn, BATMAN Gotham Adventures, #10 "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper "Ambush yourselves some Girl Scouts." --Fenris Lorsrai "Vampires, tough little cookies. Werewolves, the big blue fuzzy thing from Sesame Street--cookies ain't got a chance." --Simon "Darknight" Rafe "Damn it, Senator! You promised me these men would be decently treated." "The were decently treated: they were decently fed... and then they were decently shot." --Fletcher and the Senator, THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES "All I am after is a just life, at the end of which I can laugh as I die." --ARCADIA OF MY YOUTH, end credits lyrics "Okay, that's it. Screw you guys--I'm goin' home! Talking poo is where I draw the line." --Cartman, SOUTH PARK "It was a different time: a time of blood and guns and killings.... It was a time when killers needed saints, for so much of God's good work was being done." --SAINT OF KILLERS #4, Garth Ennis "Now spit." --Lone Watie, THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES "You better bury Ned right. You better not cut up nor otherwise harm no whores. Or I'll come back and kill every one of you sons of bitches." --William Munny, THE UNFORGIVEN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:52:57 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Song of Fire Disturbance question At 08:45 AM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: > There's also one more situation where I'd eliminate disturbance. Going >back to the fire example, say a Janitor carrying a working fire >extinguisher comes across the burning wastebasket. Instead of putting out >the fire, he says to himself "You know, I'm sick and tired of this job. I >think I'll let this one burn." without /any/ coercion, mundane or >supernatural, from anyone else. In the case where a human who knows he's >capable of stopping the destruction comes along, and completely freely >decides not to, and knows the potential extent of the destruction, he's >effectively taking responsibility for what happens next. The fire then >causes no new Disturbance. I personally am not convinced by this; if the janitor had not come along, it would have made no difference to whether the fire burned or not, so I'd rule that there's still disturbance. A counterexample: A demon has a gun. He fires it at an angel. The angel manages to dodge (it's a very slow bullet, or a very fast angel). The bullet hits the wall behind the angel, which happens to be a corporeal, man-made object. I rule that more than four points of damage were done, so there's disturbance. Is the disturbance caused by the demon, who fired the gun? Or is it caused by the angel, who failed to prevent the bullet from hitting the wall? - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:13:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Song of Fire Disturbance question > Is the disturbance caused by the demon, who fired the gun? Or is it caused > by the angel, who failed to prevent the bullet from hitting the wall? Demon. Keep cause and effect simple :) Consider, however, Liber Canticorum. The Song of Pestilence (I think it is) lets you give a human a disease. If that human dies, there is disturbance for it. However, there is *no* disturbance for others who contract the disease from the first human and as a result die. This to me is somewhat analogous to starting the fire in a wastebasket and eventually burning down a building. (Indeed, I think that epidemilogists sometimes use fire as a metaphor for the spread of contagious diseases.) I think the end rule is.... GMs, use your common sense, and do what seems right at the time. Nail 'em when you can. Don't get hung up on the details. :) - -Rob ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1242 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.