From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat May 29 18:44:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15273 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 18:44:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA09507 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 29 May 1999 18:45:29 -0500 Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 18:45:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199905292345.SAA09507@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1243 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, May 29 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1243 In this digest: IN> Artifact: Hellish Parchment and Syringe Stylus Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Exorcism in In Nomine Shedim Jumping Ship (was: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim) Re: IN> Shedim corrupting IN> Re: [INWOC] Plce: Mulligan's Island (fwd) Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Exorcism (was shedim and Lillim) IN> Shedim and Lillim Re: IN> Shedim and Lillim Re: Shedim Jumping Ship (was: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim) Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:17:21 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: IN> Artifact: Hellish Parchment and Syringe Stylus i don't have Liber Relequarium close at hand or memorized, so someone else will have to come up for most of the mechanics for this. comments and criticism are welcome. - ----- Hellish Parchment and its accompanying Syringe Stylus combine to form an artifact which has gone out of favor in Hell, though there are still Sisters who use it on occasion for flair or reducing the chances of a human successfully resisting the Geas they call in. These Lilim might be persuaded to part with a sheet of Infernal velum and scrounge a hypodermic pen--for a favor in return. Stories tell of Lilim who used the Parchment and Stylus to draft pacts with foolish mortals in similar fashion to what Lilim commonly do in contemporary times. The differences arise in that the favor done by the Lilim and the reciprocal act as payment are both written down on indestructable velum in indelible ink. The pact is then signed by both parties, the human using his own blood as ink via the Stylus, and the Lilim either signing or burning her own thumbprint into the page. Lilim then went about performing the service for which they had been contracted, and once the details of the pact had been completed, she would return to collect payment. In olden times, foolish mortals would willingly sign away their souls, but mondern skepticism and the widespread nature of these tales has forced Lilim to demand... less awkward and obvious payment. A human unwary enough to sign such a pact finds resisting the compulsory payment of favors done twice as hard as a human who has been bound by more commonplace Lilim methods. There is no reason why an Etherial spirit or an angel could not be bound by the power of pacts signed on Infernal parchment and using the Stylus to scribe their signature, but no one speaks of any Lilim successfully having done so. There are, however, a few cautionary tales which circulate in the Guildhouse of what happens to the Lilim who tried. Lilim who try making such deals with other demons are either laughed at or find themselves... fatally inconvenienced later on. Mechanics: The Parchment itself is indestructable, and finds its way to the closest private place where the human resides--in a trunk at the foot of the bed, in the home office, in a vagrant's bedroll, whatever. Those who try to lose their contract find it reappearing whole and complete mere moments later. Further, someone who signs the Hellish Parchment can be found at any time by the Lilim with whom he made the deal; conversely, the pact can be used to summon the Lilim, and pacts have been used to summon both Lilith herself and the Archangel Marc in times past. Insofar as the Geas of the Lilim and resisting it are concerned, anyone who strikes a pact for favors specified on Hellish Parchment finds the difficulty to resist payment twice whatever it would have been. For some, nothing short of Divine intervention can save them, and even then it might be too late. -=|horsefly|=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:23:59 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > From: Anders Gabrielsson > >So the Lilims' lack of ability makes them less evil? > No, the *Shedim's* lack of ability makes them more evil. what do Shedim lack which Lilim possess that somehow makes Shedim more evil than Lilim? the ability to what? -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:35:02 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [snip] > Among other resons, Lilim try to make the Geas palatable lest the > rotten ingrate human blow all his Essence resisting something that > is presented flat and raw and icky. > > Because soaking up the dissonance is a bummer. yup-yup. i love Lilim. evil little bitches that they are, all cuddly and cute and making you think it's easy, sure, don't worry about it, i'll help you, and just do this tiny, teensy little thing for me. pretty please ? suuuuuuuuuure ;) > (And then there are the quickie Geases. "You want a new CD, eh? Okay, > here's $20 for the CD. Now, be a guide to this place instead of > mugging me.") heh, sure, and it looks innocent enough. hell, angels in her presence (mixed game, anyone?) would look sideways at her, and the Elohite calmly whispers about how planting the seed of helping instead of hurting people might help this mugger's soul. cue icky-Lilim-twitch . -=|horsefly|=- "You better bury Ned right. You better not cut up nor otherwise harm no whores. Or I'll come back and kill every one of you sons of bitches." --William Munny, THE UNFORGIVEN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:56:37 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > From: Anders Gabrielsson > >You're the one saying Shedim are more evil, and I have yet to get a > >reasonable explanation for it. I say they are equally evil, since they > >have the same goal, they just use different methods. > And as I have repeatedly stated, the Lilim's methods are not as evil as the > Shedim's, if only by degrees. > > Lilim exploit free will. Shedim do their best to destroy it. exploit, pervert, reason with it, bargain with it-- ultimately making targets *want* to do what the Lilim demands, or if not want to, *choose* to. Shedim take the control away, and with lack of control comes lack of responsibility. Shedim cause a big mess, the host either kills himself and goes to Hell, or fights with all his soul to put right the horrible things he's done. even if the Shedite loses that soul, they've still had fun and made a mess no one forced *them* to take responsibility for. it's the mature, conscious decision that Lilim compel versus the immature, juvenile atrocities which cause suffering but only if done well will make the host want to repeat them without celestial interference. > And since free will is generally viewed as a Good Thing, then I daresay it > would be reasonable to decide that methods which take this Good Thing away > are more evil than methods which do not. free will *is* a Good Thing. it's IIRC one of the things God blessed humans with. we choose to do things. Shedim compel action. Lilim compel decision. by removing or "destroying" free will, Shedim go about things in such a way that Damage Control, Inc (aka Heaven and normal people) can help things work out for the better. Lilim, on the other hand, take your free will, tie it into a nice big noose, make it look like an amusement park ride, let you stick your neck in, and WHEEEEE, off you go. if the favor you do wasn't enough, and some favors can be pretty damning in and of themselves, the Geas is that little nudge, that "oh, here, let me adjust your seatbelt" right before the ride plummets. that's why Lilim are more evil: they twist a Divine blessing into an instrument of damnation, tweaking free will such that humans *want* to be evil of their own accord, they foster evil by supporting selfish behavior with their favors, and they make "free will" (or 'it's okay to be bad' mentality) look good. -=|horsefly|=- "Damn it, Senator! You promised me these men would be decently treated." "The were decently treated: they were decently fed... and then they were decently shot." --Fletcher and the Senator, THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:39:18 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Exorcism in In Nomine >>>I once suggested some exorcism rules for IN; I can't recall if any such rules (mine or another's) have made it into the canon yet, but they're needed, if only for Shedim.<<< In the CPG, exorcism is a sorcerous skill. The GMG will have some optional rules which allow any human with sufficient faith to exorcise a demon. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 22:23:15 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Shedim Jumping Ship (was: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim) At 7:45 PM -0400 5/27/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 3:40 PM -0700 5/27/99, Steel Angel wrote: >> Also, finally, how long does it take a Shedite to just jump ship in an >>emergency? There will certainly be a Disturbance, but can most Shedim >>hop out before a host dies if they see it coming? > >I'd probably let it happen near-instant -- however, in combat, I'd say >that it would take a round. Otherwise, Shedim would never be dissonant! Just a couple questions about the bodyhopping of Shedim... Say Sammy Shedite has possessed J. Random Human, and forced him into a firefight with the local National Guard. Things aren't going too well, and J.R.'s missing an arm and a decent hunk of rib cage. Sammy's not too worried, he's got more than enough Body in J.R. to keep popping cops. J.R., on the other hand, would be pushing up daisies. Sammy spots the friendly neighborhood Malakite among the cops, gets spooked, pops free of J.R., and flees for his Heart. J.R. pops off to Hell's waiting line. Question 1: Does Sam get dissonance because J.R. died when he left? Question 2: Assume all the damage was caused by irate humans. Does J.R.'s death give off a Disturbance, since, technically, it was Sam's leaving that finally killed him? - -- Nana Yaw Ofori | http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh "A little Rhyme, a little Reason." | mailto:maltesh@flashmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:47:20 -0400 From: "Kelly W. West" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim corrupting Earl wrote: >She -- or the people around her -- might also seek exorcism. Just >as Lilim are the "deal-with-the-devil" demons, Shedim are the >possessing demons -- the ones for which exorcism was specifically >invented. I once suggested some exorcism rules for IN; I can't >recall if any such rules (mine or another's) have made it into >the canon yet, but they're needed, if only for Shedim. > Exorcism is a Sorcerous skill as per'The Marches' and in an expanded version in 'The Corporeal Players Guide.' It's the only sorcerous skill an Archangel might aprove of. Unfortunately an excorcist has to know a little summoning too, this gets many of them into trouble. Kelly West (Angel of Reviews, Demon of Criticism and Ethereal God of Shameless Plugs) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 02:14:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: IN> Re: [INWOC] Plce: Mulligan's Island (fwd) This came across the INWO-Cards list, and just had to be shared... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From Scott McNair Actually, Gilligan's Island has biblical parallels -- have you ever heard of the cast of GI as compared to the seven deadly sins? Ginger - Lust Mary Ann - Jealousy Mr. Howell - Greed Mrs. Howell - Sloth Professor - Pride That leaves two crew members (Gilligan and the Skipper) and two deadly sins (Anger and Gluttony). Now, Gilligan doesn't really fit into either category. But the Skipper fits into both, so we'll give him both. But what does that mean about Gilligan? That's right, everybody's favorite "little buddy" is actually Satan. Think about it -- every time they almost leave the island, who screws it up for them? Gilligan. Every time somebody comes to rescue them, who scares them off? Gilligan. Sorry, just had to rant on that for a moment. Like the card, by the way. =) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:56:34 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > From: Anders Gabrielsson > > >On Fri, 28 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > > > >> From: Anders Gabrielsson > >> > >> >Still, whether you consider one of them more able than the other or not, > >> >in what way does their abilities affect their evilness or lack thereof? > >> > >> Since you're the one who postulated a lack of ability on the part of the > >> Lilim affecting their evil relative to Shedim, perhaps you should be the > one > >> answering this. > > > >You're the one saying Shedim are more evil, and I have yet to get a > >reasonable explanation for it. I say they are equally evil, since they > >have the same goal, they just use different methods. > > And as I have repeatedly stated, the Lilim's methods are not as evil as the > Shedim's, if only by degrees. Since they can't use each others' methods, I don't think that has any bearing on which of them is more evil, which is what I've been trying to say. IMO, a Lilim is just as evil as a Shedim, because they want the same thing. The fact that they can't do the same things doesn't matter in any way here. > Lilim exploit free will. Shedim do their best to destroy it. I'm not sure I agree with this. The Shedim take away part of your free will for a time, but then they leave you completely free to deal with what's happened. After the Shedite has left, you have your free will back again. > And since free will is generally viewed as a Good Thing, then I daresay it > would be reasonable to decide that methods which take this Good Thing away > are more evil than methods which do not. *shrugs* It's a matter of opinion. I don't see free will as a Good Thing per se, it's what you do with it that's good or bad. I'm finding this argument hard to buy, probably because I don't believe in free will IRL. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:58:55 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Fri, 28 May 1999, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > On Fri, 28 May 1999, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > This is part of what makes what the Lilim do unfair. It's always the Lilim > unfair, unfair! i haven't been arguing that Lilim are unfair. Not you, perhaps, but others have. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 04:56:49 PDT From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Exorcism (was shedim and Lillim) > >She -- or the people around her -- might also seek exorcism. Just > >as Lilim are the "deal-with-the-devil" demons, Shedim are the > >possessing demons -- the ones for which exorcism was specifically > >invented. I once suggested some exorcism rules for IN; I can't > >recall if any such rules (mine or another's) have made it into > >the canon yet, but they're needed, if only for Shedim. > >Sorcerers can exorcise. See the Corporeal Players Guide. Some priests >learn this bit of sorcery just for that skill. And then they realise how much Good they can do with what little they know, so how much more Good they could do if they knew more, and surely since they are doing God's will, what they are doing is right. Nay it is right, and Just and Good. But some of tehse rituals call for sacrifice. But is it not God's will that this should happen, and therefore it is Right and Just. And those who wish to stop you from doing this are therefore opposing God's will, and are Evil. And as it has been revealed to you that they are Evil, is it not your duty to remove them from God;s glorious exxistance? There aren't no such things as easy solutions pal. Hydrax, who once had little Mary Jane (obligitory waif)walk into a convention of Jesuits. Tables were thrown, people were killed, and then along came Fr. Smith, who everyone had always known since yesterday, and he cast out the demon. And the Jesuits asked him how he did it. And he gave them these handy little primers. And Kronos was very pleased with his impudite and shedite Collary: The PC's encouraged the Jesuits to take up sorcery. Larry was not happy ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 05:15:33 PDT From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Shedim and Lillim >I'm an author, a GM, and watch TV -- I _am_ capable of _contemplating_ >many things. I suspect most humans are. Actually doing them? I'm >capable of it, probably, if I had to. But there are things I Would Not >Do, of my own free will. Kill a baby? Poison, smothering, strangulation, >dropping from a great height, cutting the throat... Would I do it of >my own choice? I sure don't think so! I actually see shedim as removing all the cultural mores that society imposes on you. Haven't you ever wanted to smash the teeth in of that annoying guy at your work/school/etc. when it's him who gets the promotion/girls/etc. instead of you? doesn't it just make you so angry? but you don't. Why? because you've been brought up in a society where hurting other people is a Bad Thing. The shedim is that little voice inside you that says "Go on, you're better than the rest of them,don't you deserve to be treated better?" Hydrax, who was gaesed into doing this ;) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:55:03 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lillim At 5:15 AM -0700 5/29/99, Hydrax 59 wrote: >>I'm an author, a GM, and watch TV -- I _am_ capable of _contemplating_ >>many things. I suspect most humans are. Actually doing them? I'm >>capable of it, probably, if I had to. But there are things I Would Not >>Do, of my own free will. Kill a baby? Poison, smothering, strangulation, >>dropping from a great height, cutting the throat... Would I do it of >>my own choice? I sure don't think so! > >I actually see shedim as removing all the cultural mores that >society imposes on you. Haven't you ever wanted to smash the teeth >in of that annoying guy at your work/school/etc. when it's him who >gets the promotion/girls/etc. instead of you? doesn't it just make >you so angry? but you don't. Why? because you've been brought up in >a society where hurting other people is a Bad Thing. The shedim is >that little voice inside you that says "Go on, you're better than >the rest of them,don't you deserve to be treated better?" I fall back on Twin Peaks. Bob, to me, was the ideal Shedite -- a Shedite of Dreams (so when people entered the Marches, he could possess them) slowly corrupting and doing horrific things. You could start a perfectly nice person and end up someone who would rape and murder his daughter.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:38:03 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: Shedim Jumping Ship (was: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim) On Fri, 28 May 1999, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > Just a couple questions about the bodyhopping of Shedim... Good questions... > Question 1: Does Sam get dissonance because J.R. died when he left? It depends whether you read the Shedim dissonance condition as 'allowing a host to die' (in which case yes), or 'experiencing the death of a host' (in which case no). In any case, you can rule that JR doesn't die *instantly* on Sam leaving (it takes maybe a second for his brain to realise what is going on and shut down). That makes everything simpler, and Sam definitely doesn't take dissonance, any more than if he slit JR's wrists, then hopped out and waited for him to bleed to death an hour later. > Question 2: Assume all the damage was caused by irate humans. Does > J.R.'s death give off a Disturbance, since, technically, it was Sam's > leaving that finally killed him? I'd say no. Sam allowed J.R. to die by ceasing an action on his part that was keeping him alive unnaturally - hence no disturbance. Furthermore, Sam wouldn't cause disturbance by possessing JRII and the shooting him(self) in the head - but he would get dissonance. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:10:15 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim From: Anders Gabrielsson > > Since they can't use each others' methods, I don't think that has any > bearing on which of them is more evil, which is what I've been trying to > say. I still disagree. To me, at least, the methods used affect the relative levels of evil of those using them. To me, at least, destroying another's free will is worse than exploiting it, because the victim still ultimately has a much better chance to say "No" to the Lilim that is trying to coerce him into choosing evil, than they do of saying "No" to the Shedim that has posessed them and is trying to make them sacrifice a puppy to somebody. >IMO, a Lilim is just as evil as a Shedim, because they want the same > thing. The fact that they can't do the same things doesn't matter in any > way here. It is not a matter of what they can or cannot do, but rather a matter of how they do that which they do. The Lilim presents her victim with two choices, one of which is (at least on the surface) desirable. The Shedim presents its victim with no choices at all. > > Lilim exploit free will. Shedim do their best to destroy it. > > I'm not sure I agree with this. The Shedim take away part of your free > will for a time, but then they leave you completely free to deal with > what's happened. While the Lilim has her Geas-hook in you, you are still free to make whatever choices your conscience (or lack thereof) dictates. While the Shedim posesses you, you have no such freedom. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 01:44:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Sat, 29 May 1999, Prodigal wrote: > From: Anders Gabrielsson > > > > Since they can't use each others' methods, I don't think that has any > > bearing on which of them is more evil, which is what I've been trying to > > say. > > I still disagree. To me, at least, the methods used affect the relative > levels of evil of those using them. Let's put it this way: if a Lilim could use the Shedim resonance, do you think she would? If yes, in what way is she less evil than the Shedim? If no, why wouldn't she? > >IMO, a Lilim is just as evil as a Shedim, because they want the same > > thing. The fact that they can't do the same things doesn't matter in any > > way here. > > It is not a matter of what they can or cannot do, but rather a matter of how > they do that which they do. The Lilim presents her victim with two choices, > one of which is (at least on the surface) desirable. The Shedim presents its > victim with no choices at all. Do you think the Lilim do this because they're trying to be nice? I don't. They do as much evil as they can, using the weapons they have available. That their abilities happen to be different from the ones other Bands have makes no difference IMO, since they all strive for the same goal. Is it better to murder someone with a knife than to do it with a gun? That's basically what you're saying, it seems. It's less evil to murder with a knife because it's more difficult - your victim has to cooperate by getting close enough for you to stab him, while with a gun you can just blast away. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1243 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.