From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun May 30 20:07:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13098 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 20:07:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA25365 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 30 May 1999 20:08:14 -0500 Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:08:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199905310108.UAA25365@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1244 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, May 30 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1244 In this digest: IN> Shedim and Lilim and Morality Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Malakim Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Malakim IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1243 IN> Paris RPG Stores IN> I've been playing Vampire for three years,but i just think i switched Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1243 Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Malakim IN> Fallen Malakim IN> An odd In setting Re: IN> Cherub of Destiny Question Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Re: [INWOC] Plce: Mulligan's Island (fwd) Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1243 IN> Kyriotates and lifespans ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 20:41:54 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Shedim and Lilim and Morality >I actually see shedim as removing all the cultural mores that society imposes on you. Haven't you ever wanted to smash the teeth in of that annoying guy at your work/school/etc. when it's him who gets the promotion/girls/etc. instead of you? doesn't it just make you so angry? but you don't. Why? because you've been brought up in a society where hurting other people is a Bad Thing. The shedim is that little voice inside you that says "Go on, you're better than the rest of them,don't you deserve to be treated better?"< Actually, while that's true for some people, it's not true for everyone. What you're asserting here is that everyone's moral behavior stems solely from cultural pressure (i.e., external mores). Lots of people wouldn't smash someone's teeth even if the culture would let them get away with it, because THEY believe it's wrong (i.e., internal mores). I bring this up because this comes up in religious arguments often; some religious folks believe all morality comes from God, and without belief in God, humans would have no morals. Others (like me) believe all morals are human mental constructs. And so we venture into the area of Relative vs. Absolute Morality. If y'all want to sound really deep, make what you will of that with regard to Shedim and Lilim.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:16:14 -0400 From: Hilary Hayes Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim The whole Lilim/Shedim argument seems to be going round in circles. It's beginning to seem to me that those of us who like our games low contrast see the Lilim as more reasonable. The way I run things, the victim gets a choice - he doesn't =have= to accept the Lilim's favour. If she gives him 40K to get his company out of debt he can give it right =back=. No hook. Just how naive does a human have to be to think someone is going to give him 40K for =nothing= or for a truly =small= favour? There are plenty of humans around who =know= that, often, going about things the hard way is more honest and more honourable than taking the easy way out. Personally, I prefer low contrast games. I run LARPs mostly, which work better that way and when I run table tops they're either mixed parties or can only be played successfully if you co-operate, to a certain extent with the other side. I also mislike the words 'good' and 'evil' - I rarely use them myself outside of inverted commas. I guess this is =why= I like low contrast campaigns. Others have different beliefs and maybe that's why they enjoy high contrast games. We don't all have to play the same way. What troubles me is how people who perceive IN demons as out and out 'nasties' manage to cope with them as PCs. OK, we're all capable of some pretty nasty stuff and, occasionally, it's fun to roleplay a character who does things that run contrary to our social conditioning. But, in a sustained campaign, how can a person play a character they define as out and out 'evil'? Do people who like high contrast games enjoy playing demons? In a low contrast game, you can quite easily say stuff like "Angels and demons are all celestials. They just have a different 'take' on the symphony." That's a lot easier for me to handle than all this 'good' and 'evil' and the out of game questions it raises about players' morality and belief systems. I don't =want= to play a game that's about goodies and baddies. I =do= want to play In Nomine. Maybe, sometimes, in our games, things get a little un-canonical. Is there any harm in that? Are we all going to be damned for it? I doubt it If celestials have free will, then every celestial makes a choice which side to be on. That choice is reversible. If a Shedite were to be redeemed, it would become a Kyriotate. If a Lilim were to be redeemed, it would still be a Lilim. That is the =real= difference. I think it's an important difference and, whilst I have bowed to canon and conceded that Lilim are demons, I still don't think they're =quite= like other demons. After all, they partake of their mother's nature. Hilary ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:24:18 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > Do you think the Lilim do this because they're trying to be nice? I don't. > They do as much evil as they can, using the weapons they have available. > That their abilities happen to be different from the ones other Bands have > makes no difference IMO, since they all strive for the same goal. I have a question along these lines. To what extent is the goal of Free Lilim to drag souls to Hell? I would imagine that this is one of those things that would vary both between Lilim and between campaigns, but in general. I don't see that much of a payoff for Frees that manage to damn a human. They don't have a Superior to please who will capture the soul. The description in Heaven and Hell of how souls are parcelled out seems to indicate that a Free is never going to receive one that she damned from which she can collect the Essence, or even trade the soul in whole to someone better able to keep it from being snatched. In general, a Free doesn't seem to derive much direct benefit from corrupting a human, and it's far to demanding a task that she's going to do it for, well, free. Obviously, a fair amount of their time is going to be spent doing jobs for Important People who do want delivery of souls as ultimate payoff, and they'll need to do a fair amount of corrupting then. But they're created owing geases that will total at most four years of service. Even considering others that they pick up along the way, this certainly seems to leave an awful lot of time during which there's no obvious benefit for them to corrupt someone so far that they are damned. Some will work informally for other Superiors much of the time, and there will be those that simply enjoy doing this. But what about the rest of them? Is there some payoff that I've missed? Do they all simply fall into the category that they put the effort in even without a payoff? I tend to think that there are a large number of them that don't really feel compelled to suck you into the Pit. Sure, they're selfish little witches that want you indebted to them as far as possible. But they want this because you can make their life easier, pleasanter a much more fulfilled. Whether you end up in Heaven, Hell or Recycled doesn't matter that much to them. Even if you die with geases still owed, most of the damned souls are going to end up somewhere that there isn't much you can do for her. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 09:15:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Sun, 30 May 1999, Eeyore wrote: > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > Do you think the Lilim do this because they're trying to be nice? I don't. > > They do as much evil as they can, using the weapons they have available. > > That their abilities happen to be different from the ones other Bands have > > makes no difference IMO, since they all strive for the same goal. > > I have a question along these lines. To what extent is the goal of Free Lilim to > drag souls to Hell? To the extent that this keeps the Game off their backs, I think, and to the extent that they enjoy getting back at the sons of Adam for the way he treated their mother. Regarding contrast, I agree that in a low-contrast setting Lilim have a higher potential for being relatively nice than Shedim do, but this hasn't got anything to do with their resonance, but rather their dissonance conditions. A Lilim doesn't have to do anything nasty to anyone ever, as long as she can keep her Superior (if she has one) and the game away. A Shedite, on the other hand, -has- to do evil things, or he's on the fast track to Renegade-dom (which the (very, very rare) soft-hearted Shedite might find preferable to making people do nasty things against their will. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 02:16:54 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > A > Shedite, on the other hand, -has- to do evil things, or he's on the fast > track to Renegade-dom (which the (very, very rare) soft-hearted Shedite > might find preferable to making people do nasty things against their will. Just out of curiosity, -how- does a Shedite stay renegade without piling up Dissonance (or Discord) like crazy for not corrupting its host? What if a Shedite doesn't want to Redeem? Are they stuck? Is it Redemption or Dissonance for Shedim? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 10:32:00 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: IN> Malakim I know canonically they can't Fall, but I don't know that much about Hebrew so I can't work this out for myself but what would their Fallen name be? I'm not that fussed at sticking to canon generally - and I still prefer "No Malakim has ever Fallen. At least, not yet." Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 10:30:22 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Malakim On Sun, 30 May 1999, Warsinger wrote: > I know canonically they can't Fall, but I don't know that much about > Hebrew so I can't work this out for myself but what would their Fallen > name be? I was going to use Toevahim - "The Abominations". I hadn't worked out exactly what their resonance would be, but it might eventually have become necessary. (IMC, Max from FotM is a Dark Malakim who wants to Jump to gain revenge on David and Heaven. If it happems, he will become the first of the Toevahim and the Demon Prince of Abominations.) Why Abominations? It seems like the best counterpart to Virtues. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 09:55:42 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim From: Warsinger > > I know canonically they can't Fall, but I don't know that much about > Hebrew so I can't work this out for myself but what would their Fallen > name be? In my own writeup of Fallen Malakim, I'm just calling them The Shattered. My take is that it is not only Uriel's Word of Purity that holds them back from Falling, but also their Oaths. And if they manage to Fall, those Oaths have to be broken, but because they are part of the core of the Malakim's being, they remain, albeit in twisted form. The net effect is a celestial being who is has the equivalent of a suit of clothing made of broken glass, that can never be removed. > I'm not that fussed at sticking to canon generally - and I still prefer > "No Malakim has ever Fallen. At least, not yet." Same here, and my writeup is intended specifically for settings like Dark Victory, where the Upper Heavens are no longer connected to the other planes, thus removing the Malakims' connection to Uriel and his Word. I consider it my part in making it as Dark a Victory as I can. *s* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 15:57:41 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Malakim On Sun, 30 May 1999 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > > On Sun, 30 May 1999, Warsinger wrote: > > > I know canonically they can't Fall, but I don't know that much about > > Hebrew so I can't work this out for myself but what would their Fallen > > name be? > > I was going to use Toevahim - "The Abominations". I hadn't worked out > exactly what their resonance would be, but it might eventually have become > necessary. (IMC, Max from FotM is a Dark Malakim who wants to Jump to > gain revenge on David and Heaven. If it happems, he will become the first > of the Toevahim and the Demon Prince of Abominations.) David - the only Superior to have 1 Ethereal Force - even Saminga acts like he has more. Max - poor bloke - I just want to give him a cuddle. If my Ofanim PC met him she'd leg it out of LA - ascend and go straight to see Dominic and tell him to get the courtroom ready for the next trial of an Archangel. And she was a Servitor of Creaton before she swopped to Light (using that Bright Lilim Archangel of Light plot seed from somewhere on the Net I forget where - Kafziel tried to sing the Theme of Creation in an odd bit of Eli's Cathedral and got a Divine Intervention :)) Anyway - enough about our very odd campaign - really must get around to writing it up. Toevahim - odd name - but hey it's in an odd language. Sounds about right. Any particular reason why you accept Malakim Falling? > > Why Abominations? It seems like the best counterpart to Virtues. > Sounds about right to me. Hmm - for resonance - ability to project false codes of honour onto others for a short time? Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:23:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1243 > Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:39:18 -0400 > From: David Edelstein > Subject: IN> Exorcism in In Nomine > > >>>I once suggested some exorcism rules for IN; I can't > recall if any such rules (mine or another's) have made it into > the canon yet, but they're needed, if only for Shedim.<<< > > In the CPG, exorcism is a sorcerous skill. The GMG will have some optional > rules which allow any human with sufficient faith to exorcise a demon. > > - -David > I have this absolutely _fab_ exorcism ritual here. Rev. Montague Summers provides one translated from Latin (complete with marks to indicate when to apply holy water) in the chapter "Diabolic Possession" in his book "The History of Witchcraft". It has the outlines for the requirements of an Exorcism according to the RCC, who can perform an Exorcism, and all that other good stuff. If sorcery ever gets expanded, it might be fun to slide a little bit of that in there -- we'll see. For portraying sorcerers and sorcerous rituals in In Nomine, you just can't find a better reference. His chapter on "Demons and Familiars" is every bit as entertaining as well. I have some seriously weird stuff in my Bad Book collection. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:03:08 -0600 From: "Andrew Bonham" Subject: IN> Paris RPG Stores Hey all! Sorry for the cross-posting, but I felt it might improve my odds... In about a week, I'm going to Paris with some friends.... and I was wondering if anyone knew of a store(s) in Paris that sells French Role Playing Games... specifically, INS/MV or French versions of the world of Darkness? If so, please reply my private e-mail, so I don't clog the lists any more than necessary.... thanx in advance! Andrew J Bonham ParadoxPhilosopher@worldnet.att.net The Druid's Circle: http://home.att.net/~paradoxphilosopher/ "Imagination is more powerful than knowledge" -Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 13:23:50 EDT From: LFCo99@aol.com Subject: IN> I've been playing Vampire for three years,but i just think i switched hey,please put me on the mailing list.I love the looks of your game and i want to learn more.I like the looks of this game and it seems to be well thought out-the only problem is i have never heard of it before last night.I don't think i can get any of the books at the local bookstore so i would be much appreciative if you could send me some information. James ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:31:14 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Malakim At 17:30 30/05/99 , you wrote: >I was going to use Toevahim - "The Abominations". I hadn't worked out Nitpick: this should be "Toevot". "Toevah", the singular for "abomination", is feminine, not masculine, hence "Toevot". (It's a word I actually use a lot - in fact, whenever I discuss politics :-)) Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:37:29 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1243 At 18:23 30/05/99 , you wrote: >I have this absolutely _fab_ exorcism ritual here. Rev. Montague Summers That's the guy who translated the Malleus Maleficarum, right? I seem to recall his footnotes were full of praise for witch-hunters, and rants about witchcraft was real and evil. A Malphasian, if you ask me. >provides one translated from Latin (complete with marks to indicate when >to apply holy water) in the chapter "Diabolic Possession" in his book "The >History of Witchcraft". It has the outlines for the requirements of an >Exorcism according to the RCC, who can perform an Exorcism, and all that >other good stuff. If sorcery ever gets expanded, it might be fun to slide >a little bit of that in there -- we'll see. For actual RCC texts, you can't go wrong with the Malleus. It's authentic, it includes the judicial process (or what passed for judicial process at the time), and it includes the Roman ritual of exorcism. The Enyclopedia of Witchcraft is also a good source, it a bit too heavy on New Age for my tastes. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 15:05:44 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Malakim On Sun, 30 May 1999, Yossi Gurvitz wrote: > Nitpick: this should be "Toevot". "Toevah", the singular for > "abomination", is feminine, not masculine, hence "Toevot". (It's a word I > actually use a lot - in fact, whenever I discuss politics :-)) So, let me make sure I understand this. Is "toevot" the singular or plural form of the word? If singular, is the plural "toevotim"? (I prefer using dog-hebrew for homebrew Choirs and Bands, but I still like getting things as accurate as possible.) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 15:11:52 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Malakim At 03:05 PM 5/30/99 -0400, you wrote: >So, let me make sure I understand this. Is "toevot" the singular or >plural form of the word? If singular, is the plural "toevotim"? (I >prefer using dog-hebrew for homebrew Choirs and Bands, but I still like >getting things as accurate as possible.) If I remember correctly, Toevah is singular and Toevot is plural. :) I prefer Greek, but that's just me, and 'cos I happen to know it. :) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 15:21:57 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Fallen Malakim Somebody asked why I accept Fallen Malakim (I don't remember who, and I accidentally deleted that message). Here's my reasoning. I accept the *possibility*, but it's extremely difficult. (It's also inspired by David Edelstein's Dark Malakim article, so it won't even work in canon). The Malakim has to want to Fall. IMC, since I didn't like FotM as written, I changed things a little. Max recieved his punishment as written, but David had a good reason for the orders he gave. He wanted to "make a Malakite" out of Max by putting Max in a position where his very nature would conflict with his orders. Max would have to make a choice. David assumed that since Max was a Malakite, that choice would be to go berserk on the local demons (since he's going to become dissonant no matter what). When that happened, and Max finally arrived at his heart, David would forgive him his dissonance and welcome him back. The "tough love" aproach failed, however. Instead, Max just became more and more dissonant and discordant. Eventually, the weight of his discord fractured his Forces and he went Dark. Now he is actively conspiring with the forces of Hell to Fall, because he knows that a Fallen Malakite will demoralize and damage Heaven. David hasn't acted because he's stubborn (really stubborn), and is hoping that Max's Malakite nature will carry through, and that he will return. He doesn't know that Max *wants* to Fall, or he would have already acted. The other Archangels don't know, because David is treating this as an internal matter, and hasn't told anyone else. (This eliminates the rather weak "Malphas uses a Geas/5 to force Mira Klein to shatter Max's heart and then return and report" plot element. I also changed the First Trumpet's prophecy to "Virtue shall be corrupted, and the city of the angels shall be destroyed by fire".) IMC, Fallem Malakim will be so rare as to be basically unique (and that's assuming Max Falls - something the players may prevent). Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 16:01:58 -0400 From: Kim Foster Subject: IN> An odd In setting I know I'm going to get laughed off the list for this one, but here goes. While thinking about unusual settings for an In Nomine game an idea hit me. The "Ancient World" as seen in the Xena and Hecules shows. No, wait, don't delete! It actually works. Make the "Gods" powerful Ethereals, Herc, Xena and others are Soilders or Crossbreeds, the monsters can be ethereal baddies, Nephalillim or what have you. The idea was really inspired by some of the more reecent episodes which have included talk of "higher" forces of good and evil than the traditional gods, Fate, Destiny, reincarnation, even an appearance by "Micheal", a rather angelic being serving higher powers and a demonic incarnation of Callisto. Well, it was just a thought. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 13:13:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Cherub of Destiny Question > I have been giving some thought to the Cherubim of Destiny lately > (one of my players now has one). Their Choir attunement > (paraphrasing) is that they can sense if their attuned is going to > die in the next year. My question is: Do Cherubim of Destiny suffer > Dissonance for allowing their attuned to die (naturally or violently) > if they have read the attuned's Destiny (using Divine Destiny) and > have determined that this is the way the attuned is supposed to die? > > If they do take Dissonance from this, they would have to attempt to > sever the attunement, which doesn't seem correct to me. ATM, I'm > picturing an extremely dedicated Cherub of Destiny standing across > the road, weeping while he watches his attuned person get killed by a > violent mob, but stopping himself from doing anything about it > because he knows that this will raise public awareness and facilitate > social change for the better, ie, the attuned's Destiny. I would say that the the Cherub doing his duty probably would *not* sever the attunement. If I were GMing the situation, I would also say that the Cherub takes dissonance when the subject of his attunemnt dies. This does mean that the Cherub is stock between rock and hard place; either thing he does, he's going to soak up some dissonance. But if he lets his attuned die, thereby achieving his Destiny, he just gets the dissonance. If he prevents his attuned from achieving his Destniy, the Cherub gest the dissonance *and* the ire of Yves. In the former case, if the Cherub really did do the right thing, and had to take the note of dissonance anyway, I think that Yves would be more inclined to remove the dissonance the next time the Cherub asked about it. And if that doesn't work, there are always Tethers.... The way I see it, part of being good, and part of being a Cherub in particular, is self sacrifice. This can mean Trauma, most obviously, but it can also mean taking the hit of dissonance (and thereby putting yourself at risk of becoming Outcast or Falling). If angels go around at all times doing good things, but start to shrink away from the greater good if it means risking dissonance, then they start to seem a little selish to me, and we know where that leads. Of course, the angel has to strike a balance; a note or two of dissonance aren't that big a deal if dealt with, but if the angel allows the dissonance to build up, then clearly he's striking the wrong balance. Cherubs in particular I think get into these "rock/hard place" dilemmas more than any other angels (with the possible exception of Malakites who hamstring themselves with oaths that can come up mutually contradictory in some situations). They have to walk the line between protecting their attuned and not becoming blindly obsessed. That Cherubs managed to walk this line and do so much good in the process is one reason that other choirs might admire them, even if they think the Guardians are a bit nuts. - -Rob - -=-=-= Rob Knop =-= rknop@sonic.net =-= http://www.sonic.net/~rknop =-=-=- Playwrights, Producers, Actors, and Anybody Interested in Drama: Visit the Dramatic Exchange at http://www.dramex.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 17:21:06 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim In a message dated 5/30/99 1:17:50 AM, omentide@compuserve.com writes: >What troubles me is how people who perceive IN demons as out and out > >'nasties' manage to cope with them as PCs. OK, we're all capable of some > >pretty nasty stuff and, occasionally, it's fun to roleplay a character >who > >does things that run contrary to our social conditioning. But, in a > >sustained campaign, how can a person play a character they define as out > >and out 'evil'? Do people who like high contrast games enjoy playing > >demons? In my case, Demons as PC's are forbidden. The closest I got was a one-shot Free Lilim who was working for Dominic, by a woman who was LARPing an Antitribu Tremere at the same time. My main problem was needing to roleplay all the demons myself. (The campaign went under about 6 months ago, and now that my son's home I'm thinking about reviving it.) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 17:18:40 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: [INWOC] Plce: Mulligan's Island (fwd) At 2:14 AM -0400 5/29/99, Pee Kitty wrote: >This came across the INWO-Cards list, and just had to be shared... > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From Scott McNair > >Actually, Gilligan's Island has biblical parallels -- have you ever heard of >the cast of GI as compared to the seven deadly sins? > >Ginger - Lust >Mary Ann - Jealousy >Mr. Howell - Greed >Mrs. Howell - Sloth >Professor - Pride > >That leaves two crew members (Gilligan and the Skipper) and two deadly sins >(Anger and Gluttony). Now, Gilligan doesn't really fit into either >category. But the Skipper fits into both, so we'll give him both. But what >does that mean about Gilligan? > >That's right, everybody's favorite "little buddy" is actually Satan. Think >about it -- every time they almost leave the island, who screws it up for >them? Gilligan. Every time somebody comes to rescue them, who scares them >off? Gilligan. > >Sorry, just had to rant on that for a moment. Like the card, by the way. =) And, of course, Gilligan wears red. And a hat to cover his horns. Nybbas is smarter than he looks. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 17:49:07 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim At 9:15 AM +0200 5/30/99, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >On Sun, 30 May 1999, Eeyore wrote: > > > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > > > Do you think the Lilim do this because they're trying to be >nice? I don't. > > > They do as much evil as they can, using the weapons they have available. > > > That their abilities happen to be different from the ones other >Bands have > > > makes no difference IMO, since they all strive for the same goal. > > > > I have a question along these lines. To what extent is the goal >of Free Lilim to > > drag souls to Hell? > >To the extent that this keeps the Game off their backs, I think, and to >the extent that they enjoy getting back at the sons of Adam for the way he >treated their mother. I disagree to block, Peter. Free Lilim only have interest in the corruption and damnation of souls if someone is paying them for the service, whether it be paying off their own Geas-debt or accruing a new Geas on a higher up demon. Remember, IN isn't good verses evil, it's selfless versus selfish. "These humans treated mother bad, so we'll treat them bad" is placing Lilith's revenge over Looking Out for Number One. Free Lilim aren't wired that way. And if the Game starts persecuting Frees in the name of them not corrupting enough souls for Hell, Lilith stops making Lilim for Asmodeus and possibly for the rest of Hell. It's not in the Game's interest to piss Lilith off unnecessarily. In fact, it's far more in their interest to watch Frees and quietly track them, letting them do as they will. When they can be seen to be working actively against Hell (by working for Angels), then they go in. It's a game, after all. You don't get too emotional about it. You just play to win. >Regarding contrast, I agree that in a low-contrast setting Lilim have a >higher potential for being relatively nice than Shedim do, but this hasn't >got anything to do with their resonance, but rather their dissonance >conditions. A Lilim doesn't have to do anything nasty to anyone ever, as >long as she can keep her Superior (if she has one) and the game away. A >Shedite, on the other hand, -has- to do evil things, or he's on the fast >track to Renegade-dom (which the (very, very rare) soft-hearted Shedite >might find preferable to making people do nasty things against their will. Yup. This is, I think, part of the point. Lilim don't like resonating Shedim because Shedim have hardwired needs to be corruptive, and their (alien) nature is entirely devoted to that. I play most demons as expressions of sin and selfishness, but comprehensible. Shedim are the Lovecraftian horrors, in my game. No one gets them. They almost never ever redeem because they're entirely wired to selfishness and loathsome activity. Once the multitaskers of repute, they are now monomaniacal in their focus of corruption. And for the most part they *love* it. They love feeling that bit of human recoil as he does worse and worse things, and feeling that bit die away so they can flee the human, who has a clear memory of becoming a monster. Shedim *enjoy* their work in my game. And as a result, every other demon band except the Djinn actively dislike Shedim -- they're messy and hard to control and generally just looking for their next corruptive thrill and don't play with others. The Djinn, of course, just don't care. So I say, and so I believe. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 16:28:25 -0700 From: dragons@wildmail.com Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1243 here's my first submission to the digest! enjoy! The Fall Trailer ~cue some really cool music that would go nicely with a jap-animae in nomine movie... Deep Narator Voice: in the beggining... *shots of Genisis, God creating things, and the angels watching* DNV: there was creation *growth of trees and other flora and fauna* DNV: and it was good... *God and his angel buds hanging out in Novalis's glade admiring the world, panning out to show a single figure standing just outside the glade, his face shadowed* DNV:but even angels have bad days... *scene of Lucifer arguing with Yves* *blackout, music stops* *closeup of lucifer, looking all cool and bad ass* let the hazing begin!! Lauren, Malakim of Creation Lucifer (sarcastically villanious): what's an angel to do? *cue fast, driving music* *flash of angels fighting fallen, firey swords and nines blazing* *shot of Dominc, pounding on his desk as he rises angrilly, facing michael* Dominic: I want him stopped! Micheal (slapping his battle axe in his fist,grins evilly): my pleasure.. *music comes to a stop as michael and lucifer stand facing each other, both anticipating the fight to come* Lucifer (motioning to himself with his hands): you're victory is assured... *slow motion of Michael kicking Lucifer's red ass out of heaven* *blackout* Lucifer's voice: but Heaven's is another story... *flames start from the left side of the screen and move quickly across, rising higher forming the words:* THE FALL *shot of a dark office, a coweled figure sitting behind it while another stands before it* Asmodeus (bowing): I have talked with the Lightbringer, Lord Dominic...he assures me that all will be revealed. _______________________________________________________________ Get your free e-mail / e-card account that helps save wildlife! http://www.care-mail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 21:08:58 -0400 From: EDG Subject: IN> Kyriotates and lifespans Can a Kyriotate extend the lifespan of a creature it's inhabiting? If so, what happens when it leaves the creature? I have an image of a Kyriotate in a mayfly or some such; its lifespan is only 24 hours or so, but the Kyriotate can, in theory, possess it for far longer. (Imagine how creepy a swarm of mayflies would be...) - -EDG ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1244 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.