From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jun 1 11:26:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14404 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:26:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA23670 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:20:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:20:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199906011620.LAA23670@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1246 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 1 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1246 In this digest: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Shedim and Lilim and Morality IN> An odd In setting IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1245 Re: IN> Renegade Shedim Re: IN> Fallen Lilim? Re: IN> Renegade Shedim Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Renegade Shedim Re: IN> Renegade Shedim Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Renegade Shedim IN> Redeeming Shedim Re: IN> Fallen Lilim? IN> IN based movie IN> IN movie Re: IN> Mayflies Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim IN> Exorcism Rituals Re: IN> Mayflies Re: IN> IN movie Re: IN> Kyriotates and lifespans Re: IN> Mayflies (off-topic) Re: IN> 2 Kyrio of Janus questions Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Kyriotates and lifespans Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Re: IN> Renegade Shedim IN> Being Geased (was Shedim and Lilim) Re: IN> Mayflies Re: IN> Reach out and touch someone Re: Shedim Jumping Ship (was: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:26:20 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Shedim and Lilim >>>Like I said, it's character acting, basically.<<< Not quite. In character acting, you're simply acting out lines and actions that have been scripted by someone else. It's like putting on a mask. In roleplaying, you are *creating* the character and his actions. Everything the character says and does, you make him say and do. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:34:09 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Shedim and Lilim and Morality >>>But where do these internal mores come from? that's right, the society you got brought up in.<<< Partially. Everyone's morality is an alchemy of individual personality and social conditioning. I don't believe in an absolute, external morality, and yet I don't believe in absolute cultural relativity either. In some societies, slavery, torture, and other forms of degradaton are acceptable...yet there are people in those societies who find such behavior objectionable. If they never received any external conditioning from society to say that this was a bad thing, where did those objections come from? Or are they immoral to object, since they're going against social mores? >>>What you are is determined by where you are.<<< So in the "nature vs. nurture" argument, you're 100% on the side of "nurture"? I tend to believe the evidence that it's a mix of both. >>>Isn't that what I was saying Shedim removed? And didn't you just agree with me by saying that morals are human constructs?<<< You were saying they are *social* constructs. This would imply, for example, that if you have a society where slavery is moral, but an individual in that society who believes slavery is immoral, a Shedite couldn't turn him into a slaver, because there are no moral constructs to remove. Doesn't compute. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:38:44 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> An odd In setting >>>I was hoping that maybe some really clever and organized soul on the list worked out a timeline of all the important events and shifts of the War as they are presented in the various canon. This would really help somebody write a historical IN campaign. Anybody like that out there?<<< Me. Wait for the GMG. - -David (shameless plugging) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:26:56 -0500 From: aborden@soltec.net (Amy Borden) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1245 >Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 12:54:23 -0400 >From: Whistling in the Dark >Subject: Re: IN> Night Music and Celestial needs > >At 4:35 PM +0100 5/31/99, Steve Jessop wrote: >>On Mon, 31 May 1999 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >> >> > They need to breathe because spirit and breath are synonymous. (The >> > hebrew word ruach [sic] means both, IIRC.) >> >>As does Latin 'spiritus'. >> >>On the other hand, the Hebrew word 'nephesh' and the Latin word 'anima' >>mean 'life-force' or 'soul' without literally meaning 'breath'. So take >>your pick, basically. > >And in English, "Spirit" means both the presence of the Holy and the >presence of exceptional Scotch. > >Therefore, henceforth, all Celestials in my game need alcohol to survive. > >(Why do I get the feeling Tatiel will enjoy that?) > [Tatiel] Because dammit, I want to see people dancing on tables! I want to see five Djinn, a Seraph, two Elohim, three Lilim and six Relievers and Gremlins do a loud choral version of "I Drink Alone" in eight different keys some not known to sonic physics! And *especially* because I want a petty excuse to paint a five times life size version of Bill the Cat on a large available surface wearing nothing but paint, a smile, and a few strips of silver lame cloth and my Sock, because my SO will *like* it! I dream *big*, baby! .... um. (Ladies and gentlemen, Tatiel, Cherub of Creation, drunk on nothing but her own neurotransmitters. Feel free to be scared now.) >- -- >Eric Alfred Burns | > | now with web site content! > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 23:37:11 EDT From: SdshowTim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Renegade Shedim In a message dated 5/31/99 2:25:00 PM, sam@illuminated.co.uk writes: <<> Okay, I still don't know how they do it. How can a Shedite go Renegade > without becomeing a puddle of Dissonance or Discord? [snip] They can easily go renegade - after all, a Renegade is still selfish. Redeeming, OTOH, is difficult, but not impossible. To avoid dissonance, the Shedite has to corrupt someone once a day, in a manner that indisputably harms someone. There are plenty of ways to corrupt for *good* - corrupt the bad guys. The corrupt politician, urged on by the Shedite, takes more of a public contract for himself than he normally does - and gets caught. The wife-beater hits his wife in public, and gets arrested. A shrewd criminal, who always drew the line at murder, kills his accomplice in a fit of rage. You only have to do this once a day; the rest of the time, you can be doing good.>> That's a little iffy, sort of Habbalah esque doing evil for the sake of good. I think the Shedite has to get creative with the idea of corruption. If corruption is turning someone against their nature then making evil people do good is corrupting that individual. GM's probably should still hit them for dissidence (maybe even extra for trying to doge their nature) but it would make redemption easier. Of all demons I'd think that Shedim would spontaniously redeem the most, if it happens at all. Because if there some good force in the In-nomine universe then it would take pity upon a demon fighting a war against its own evil. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 23:44:46 EDT From: SdshowTim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Lilim? In a message dated 5/27/99 7:35:13 PM, gantr@NKU.EDU writes: <> Personally I doubt the Lilim are unFallen, because Lilith herself is generating infernal essence, holding an infernal word and manipulating the Symphony because Lucifer granted her the power to do so. Since Lilith is rather demonic herself her daughters are most likely created demonic. However there is a lot to imply otherwise, that they occupt some middle ground. Even the mechanics of their resonance (involving both perception and will). If the Brights are gifters, giving without thought of return, and the unFallen are Tempters, luring you into 'fair' deals based on your needs, then the Fallen Lilim would be probably be able to cause needs to exist. Another thought is that perhaps the free are the unFallen, as they are closest to their mother's word. Once they are bound to a demon prince they go from sort of not fallen to fully demonic. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 06:19:25 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Renegade Shedim On Mon, 31 May 1999, Kelly W. West wrote: > >I suppose you could sort of compensate by also making the host do good > >things, or keeping it from doing bad things. This might make the host > >really confused if the Shedite isn't very careful, and if it doesn't move > >on very quickly... I suppose it could also try to do bad things and then > >undo them as fast as possible, but that one's also really iffy. This one could work - careful yes - but taking good care of a Host is something it would need to learn. > > > IMHO redemption is a series of sacrafices on the potential redeemed's > part. A shedim is going to pile on the Dissonanace and Discord on the path > to the light, that is part of the 'price.' There not the only ones, > impudites will have to do without all the extra power he is used to, Lilim > will have to forgo any geases held, and just think of a Belseraph trying to > stay honest all of the time. This is why few renegades redeem, even those > who have convinced themselves that hell is fated to lose. > There is a vast difference between not gaining power from your Demonic Resonance and sundry abilities - and racking up Dissonance/Discord but the bucketful. And doesn't have lots of D/D make it harder to Redeem too? Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 16:16:43 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Malakim At 22:05 30/05/99 , you wrote: >> Nitpick: this should be "Toevot". "Toevah", the singular for >> "abomination", is feminine, not masculine, hence "Toevot". (It's a word I >> actually use a lot - in fact, whenever I discuss politics :-)) > >So, let me make sure I understand this. Is "toevot" the singular or >plural form of the word? If singular, is the plural "toevotim"? (I "Toevot" is plural, "toevah" is singular. There's no such thing as "toevatim"; there is a "to'ovotiehem" ("their abominations"). For Dark Malakim (I like the idea of "jumping", BTW) I would also suggest "T'me'im", "the Unclean" ("Tam'e" for singular). >prefer using dog-hebrew for homebrew Choirs and Bands, but I still like >getting things as accurate as possible.) Dog-Hebrew just makes me cringe, sorry. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:09:19 -0400 From: Hilary Hayes Subject: Re: IN> Renegade Shedim This is from Ashley (Hilary and I share the same account). >This one could work - careful yes - but taking good care of a Host is something it would need to learn.< A Shedite corrupts the soul of the host. It works on the mind, a slow (or fast) path to corruption. Caring for the vessel is not explicitly dissonant unless the Shedite is working for Andre and even then there is a grey line. I personally would not have great issue with a Shedite regarding the flesh as a valuable investment. By looking after the flesh it is possible to take the soul and mind deeper and deeper into corruption. Of course this only lasts as long as the Shedite has a use for the vessel. Being renegade is not really a problem, a Shedite can simply follow its own nature free of any constraints which might be imposed by Hell. It might gain some dissonance on the way to going renegade but generally it is not too difficult for a Shedite to get rid of dissonance. Discord is a different matter, and renegades should have discord. Discord is difficult to dispose of and makes the Shedite's nature more difficult to carry out, but since a Shedite is likely to have a very high will it may be able to cope with Discord with relative ease. Redemption is a different matter. A Shedite by nature forces its host towards corruption and enjoys doing so. Why would a Shedite want to redeem? All the fun would be gone. Ashley. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 20:59:04 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Renegade Shedim At 2:38 AM -0700 5/31/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Okay, I still don't know how they do it. How can a Shedite go Renegade >without becomeing a puddle of Dissonance or Discord? I mean, if they >-still- want to corrupt humans and such, I doubt they'd -go- Renegade in >the first place. Outside of Shedim of the Game (who don't need to >corrupt) how is it -possible-? > Unlike Angels being Outcast, a demon going Renegade does not neccesarily have the same amount of metaphysical significance. A Renegade demon is one who's on the outs with its boss for whatever reason, including perhaps getting the blame for someone else's screwup. The demon may still be as nasty, corrupting as it was before, it's just out of the current party line. As long as the Shedim in question fulfills its basic Band requirements then it can survive its status. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.concentric.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:24:13 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Malakim At 4:16 PM +0300 5/31/99, Yossi Gurvitz wrote: > Dog-Hebrew just makes me cringe, sorry. I had the same problem with Ars Magica's "Pig-Latin" :) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.concentric.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:28:51 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Renegade Shedim At 12:27 PM -0400 5/31/99, Kelly W. West wrote: > This is why few renegades redeem, even those >who have convinced themselves that hell is fated to lose. > Then again, seeking redemption merely because you feel that your on the losing side is primarily a selfish motivation, something that's not going to help keep your Forces together in the fires of Redemption. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.concentric.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:36:00 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: IN> Redeeming Shedim At 11:37 PM -0400 5/31/99, SdshowTim@aol.com wrote: >Of all demons I'd think that Shedim would spontaniously redeem the most, if >it happens at all. Because if there some good force in the In-nomine >universe then it would take pity upon a demon fighting a war against its own >evil. As I read it the dissidence condition reads as a time limit in that the Shedim must corrupt its host or leave. A Shedim that wishes to Redeem would best do so by trying to emulate the ressonance of its Choir analogue, the Kyriotatim. Now of course it can't posess more than one vessel at a time, but it could make it stay brief, by say, staying in a given host no more than a number of hours equal to its Celestial Forces (or by the amount of a check digit upon posession. This would counter the natural tendency of a Shedite to think of the host as it's own and bring it closer to the multiple points of view selfless state of mind. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.concentric.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:43:15 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Lilim? At 11:44 PM -0400 5/31/99, SdshowTim@aol.com wrote: > >Personally I doubt the Lilim are unFallen, because Lilith herself is >generating infernal essence, holding an infernal word and manipulating the >Symphony because Lucifer granted her the power to do so. The Symphony seems to be the primary road for true creativity. The original rebelling celestials discovered that unlike the Host who could create a whole new Choir in response to a perceived need, (the Malakim), they could only reinvent themselves by twisting their former natures around. Likewise the Angels are not likely to casually create new Choirs because they tend to fall in with the established themes shown by the Symphony itself. Because of her Human roots however, Lilith at least for a time retained her creative heritage. Beiing empowered by Lucifer nesscisitated a cutting off for most of that, but she had enough to create her own personal concept of a celestial being. It's no particular surprise that this being does not radically change its nature when Redeemed. One wonders what Lilith could acheive for the Host where she to somehow Redeem, but I could not see a plausible scenario for that short of something on the order of redneck's Dark Victory. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.concentric.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:45:58 +0200 From: "Niels C. G. Nielsen" Subject: IN> IN based movie The IN core books contained a few IN related movies. Here is another and this is as much an IN Must-See as God's Secret Army. I's named: Bram Stoker's: Shadow Builder. It's about a militant soldier of God who's on a mission to prevent a greater demon (perhaps Demon Prince, of Lucifer him self) from being called/summoned to earth by a group of mad cultists. He thinks he succeeds but then clues lead him to a small country-side town and all hell breaks loose. The final confrontation is 110% IN. With songs, guns and holy water comming into action. Rent or buy it. It's worth it j6g ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:55:02 +0200 From: "Niels C. G. Nielsen" Subject: IN> IN movie Another IN Must-See. This is a Tales From the Crypt movie (90 min) called: Demon Knight It's about a man who is keeper of the last artifact that prevents the Darkness from controlling everything again. He's hunted by a demon capable of turning the recently dead into undeads under his control. This artifact contains the blood of great soldiers/warriors who fight for God. The first blood to be poured into it was the blood of Jesus. The man'a time as keeper is about to expire and he must find a succesor. This leads him into a squat hotel in the middle of nowhere where he seek refuge from his persuers. They find him - ofcourse - and then the fun begins... Rent or buy it. It's still a Crypt story (lots of body parts flying around) but the story is fantastic). j6g ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 05:17:01 PDT From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: Re: IN> Mayflies << What exactly could a swarm of mayflies do to anyone? The reason they livesuch a short time is that they have no digestive system. They don't eat. Therefore they have no teeth, stingers, poison ... Although I suppose if you got enough of them they could help cover an escape or distract an enemy by getting in his eyes, or cutting off his air. >> And then it forms a smiley face. A formation of mayflies in a smiley face. But that wouldn't be disturbing. No, what you do is surround someone with MIMES! Everywhere they look there's mimes. Now that's evil. <(Hee hee... a mayfly with three Corporeal Forces... "Why... won't... you... DIE?" *swat* *buzz*)> Then it buzzes at you "Oh yes foolish earthling?" Then form teh mayflys into a giant paddle (I have been watching way too much old disney stuff) Hydrax "Sometimes in one of it's cruelest punishments, a society will paint an offendors face white and stick him in an invisible box" Or something to that effect, The Far Side ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 05:20:24 PDT From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim Oh that's easy. you just scrunch up alll your hatred into an itty bitty ball and throw it at the world. After all, It's their fault. And besides, evil is so much more fun then good Hydrax I've actually got a good story here somewhere. I'll post it if anyone's interested. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:15:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Exorcism Rituals > At 18:23 30/05/99 , you wrote: > > That's the guy who translated the Malleus Maleficarum, right? I seem to > recall his footnotes were full of praise for witch-hunters, and rants about > witchcraft was real and evil. A Malphasian, if you ask me. He did one translation of it. If Montague Summers is _anything_, he's amazingly entertaining. He's not just crazy... he's a Jesuit! > For actual RCC texts, you can't go wrong with the Malleus. It's > authentic, it includes the judicial process (or what passed for judicial > process at the time), and it includes the Roman ritual of exorcism. The > Enyclopedia of Witchcraft is also a good source, it a bit too heavy on New > Age for my tastes. If you're doing a version of the Inquisition, the Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology isn't a _bad_ book, but it is pretty focused on the Inquisition itself and not on the demonology. The demonology in it is a bit scarce, although some of the outlined cases are pretty cool. But, on the other hand, if you want hard core demonology, you can order a copy of Guazzo's COMPEDIUM MALEFICARUM on Amazon.com. :) I have another book on the Devil and the Idea of Evil, but I can't remember the author. Nothing quite like In Nomine vs. the Real Thing, now is it? :) Well, so to speak. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 09:48:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Mayflies Before we went to smiley-faces and paddles, I was thinking of "people" made of big swarms of insects, who were features of a novel by Frank Herbert (author of "Dune") some years back. I think it was called "The Green Brain." They could only pass for human at a distance and/or heaviy robed, but it was still useful. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:54:12 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> IN movie I saw Really Bad Things (I think that was the title - that Slater flick), which was... well, bad. But for the first half of it I couldn't get out of my head that Slater's character absolutely -had- to be possessed by a Shedite. At least that way the movie made a lot more sense. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 07:48:15 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and lifespans At 9:08 PM -0400 5/30/99, EDG wrote: >Can a Kyriotate extend the lifespan of a creature it's inhabiting? If so, >what happens when it leaves the creature? I'd have to say, yes, the lifespan does extend. WHen a Kyriotate posesses an animal, it becomes effectively a Vessel, save for the Disturbance it gives off when a Celestial breaks it. It doesn't need to eat, or drink, and most importantly, it doesn't have to age. So if a mayfly has nineteen hours left to live when the Kyrio possesses it, and the Kyrio wishes it, it has nineteen hours left when the Kyrio leaves, four days later. Granted, its chances of successfully mating and passing on its genetic material to the next generation will probably have decreased significantly, as most of the other mayflies will have already swarmed and died. Since mating is the only goal of the adult mayfly, a strict GM might rule having lost out on its only chance to mate as "Leaving a host in worse shape than you found it"... - -- Nana Yaw Ofori | http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh "A little Rhyme, a little Reason." | mailto:maltesh@flashmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 10:18:27 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Mayflies (off-topic) At 09:48 AM 6/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Before we went to smiley-faces and paddles, I was thinking of >"people" made of big swarms of insects, who were features of >a novel by Frank Herbert (author of "Dune") some years back. >I think it was called "The Green Brain." They could only pass >for human at a distance and/or heaviy robed, but it was still >useful. Wow... Earl, you're the only person I've encountered who's read this book. I've been trying to find it since 1992, but I thought it was a Philip José Farmer book. :) Actually, another, slightly creepier example of this - sort of - is what I believe are called the Hollow Men from WW's _Freak Legion_... Fomori that consist of the shell of a human body being inhabited by a swarm of (insert small swarming creature here), under the command of a warped version of the original human mind... Maybe a subset of Shedim? >Earl - -EDG Herbert... hmmm... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:16:18 +0100 From: hjalkar@redbrick.dcu.ie (Kevin Walsh) Subject: Re: IN> 2 Kyrio of Janus questions On Mon, May 31, 1999 at 04:14:14PM +1000, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > 1. Is the Kyrio of Janus' gaseous form completely immune to physical > damage? Even from celestial sources (specifically, the Calabite > resonance)? If not, how many Body Hits would it have (I'm guessing Str > x Corp Forces). > I suppose the Calabite resonance should be able to hurt it. I don't see how anything else could. Also, bear in mind that it may be vulnerable to Celestial attacks. > 2. If a Kyrio of Janus Swipes an object from one Host's location, can > the object pop back into existence with one of it's other Hosts? What > if it changes Hosts in the interim? > I'd assume so. > (I crunched some numbers earlier - the game includes a 615 point > Disturbance. Yoicks.) > It's still not as good as a million-point disturbance. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "It is an impressive thing to hear a helpless woman damned in every item of her life, every corner of her soul. For good reason, no one accused by the Temple has ever been found innocent." Ser Visal's Tale, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 10:19:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Malakim Warsinger wrote: > I know canonically they can't Fall, but I don't know that much > about Hebrew so I can't work this out for myself but what would > their Fallen name be? I don't think there's a formula for calculating band name from choir name. "Malakim" means "kings." You could try to find the He brew word for "tyrant," perhaps, taking that as the conceptual opposite of king. Styling the opposite of a Virtue as a Vice would suit, too. But none of the other choir-band pairs work that way, except maybe seraph-balseraph, but I think "bal" is "Baal" contracted as used as a prefix, either to link the fallen with one of the most notorious pagan gods in the Bible (and a Demon Prince in IN), or used literally as "lord," to indicate their overweening pride. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 10:27:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and lifespans Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > Granted, its chances of successfully mating and passing on its > genetic material to the next generation will probably have > decreased significantly, as most of the other mayflies will have > already swarmed and died. Since mating is the only goal of the > adult mayfly, a strict GM might rule having lost out on its only > chance to mate as "Leaving a host in worse shape than you found > it"... So the Kyrio should possess the whole swarm, which can pick up their prom night where they left off. I think Kyrios usually possess insects by the swarm-load anyway. ... Although I have a fondness for the idea of a whole Kyrio investing itself in a single flea -- Corp forces now, say, 8. I am thinking about an old Warner Bros. cartoon about a strong-man flea taking a vacation from the flea circus on a nice quiet dog in the country... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:28:56 +0100 From: hjalkar@redbrick.dcu.ie (Kevin Walsh) Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim On Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:16:14PM -0400, Hilary Hayes wrote: > It's beginning to seem to me that those of us who like our games low > contrast see the Lilim as more reasonable. This would seem to be the case in general. The way I run things, the > victim gets a choice - he doesn't =have= to accept the Lilim's favour. If > she gives him 40K to get his company out of debt he can give it right > =back=. No hook. Just how naive does a human have to be to think someone > is going to give him 40K for =nothing= or for a truly =small= favour? Very few. Donations of a £1 for bus fare, on the other hand, won't be thought about twice. > Personally, I prefer low contrast games. I run LARPs mostly, which work > better that way and when I run table tops they're either mixed parties or > can only be played successfully if you co-operate, to a certain extent with > the other side. I don't think much has to be done to the standard political LARP to make all the characters demons. This could be just my cynicism, of course. I also mislike the words 'good' and 'evil' - I rarely use > them myself outside of inverted commas. I guess this is =why= I like low > contrast campaigns. Others have different beliefs and maybe that's why > they enjoy high contrast games. We don't all have to play the same way. > Maybe. I'm an atheist who believes in good and evil, and I prefer medium contrast. > What troubles me is how people who perceive IN demons as out and out > 'nasties' manage to cope with them as PCs. OK, we're all capable of some > pretty nasty stuff and, occasionally, it's fun to roleplay a character who > does things that run contrary to our social conditioning. But, in a > sustained campaign, how can a person play a character they define as out > and out 'evil'? Do people who like high contrast games enjoy playing > demons? > Well, obviously the character doesn't think of itself as evil. But I don't think I'd have much of a problem coping. It doesn't take all that much for someone to be evil. Evil is...easy, much easier than being good, in certain ways. I don't see demons as tending to be fanatics about evil, except for Habbalah. Very few of them have any sense of cause; they just want to have the best life for themselves that they can get, and being the petty, spiteful beings they are, don't care who else gets hurt in the process (and often prefer it if someone else gets hurt). Not all that much different from a Paranoia character, really. > In a low contrast game, you can quite easily say stuff like "Angels and > demons are all celestials. They just have a different 'take' on the > symphony." I'd tend to see that as a copout. It could be just me. That's a lot easier for me to handle than all this 'good' and > 'evil' and the out of game questions it raises about players' morality and > belief systems. I happen to think of those as interesting. > If celestials have free will, then every celestial makes a choice which > side to be on. Most celestials won't get the opportunity to make a choice. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "It is an impressive thing to hear a helpless woman damned in every item of her life, every corner of her soul. For good reason, no one accused by the Temple has ever been found innocent." Ser Visal's Tale, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:49:17 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Renegade Shedim Ashley Hayes wrote: [snip] > Redemption is a different matter. A Shedite by nature forces its host > towards corruption and enjoys doing so. Why would a Shedite want to > redeem? All the fun would be gone. One of the players in my game is a Kyriotate of Eli in service to Lightning, with both Choir attunements, so it can do flying toasters with full, pouting lips (Song of Form at no Essence cost). An old Shedite friend of its has turned up - and let me tell you, Flying Toasters impress it *immensely* (or would if it saw the Kyrio do them - hasn't happened yet). I can see a bored, jaded Shedite being interested in the Kyrio of Lightning schtick. Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:29:53 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Being Geased (was Shedim and Lilim) All this talk about the relative evil of Geasing vs. possession, and the related wrangling on just how the Lilim resonance works, leads to a question: What does it feel like to be under a Geas? I've seen discussion of just what the Lilim does or doesn't have to do to get a legitimate hook, and just how much choice the human has . . . but once the favor is asked, what's life like for the human? Lots of people seem to be talking as though the Geas forces the requested behavior -- but it does not. All it does is cause damage, at relatively long intervals, as long as the behavior is *not* performed. "Shoot this guy now" would not be a very useful Geas, actually, since the human is probably going to have to take at least the first hit of damage before really Getting the Point. He may shoot the guy eventually to keep from dying, but if Jane Lilim needed him shot *right then*, she's lost her chance. Or am I wrong? Does being Geased impart immediate knowledge that you *must* do what was just asked of you, or suffer? Does the victim learn anything about the details or timetable of the suffering? We've talked about how easy or hard it is for a human to know he's been hooked, but what about once the Geas is in place? Any thoughts on this? Any canon? While I'm mostly interested in humans here, would things be different for celestials? Are active Geasa visible on the victim's celestial form? Does a Geased celestial have more comprehension of what has happened than a human? Does that depend on prior experience, or is there directly-imparted knowledge involved? Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campuscwix.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:50:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Mayflies Well, a swarm of mayflies could get in your eyes, your ears, your nose, your mouth, down your lungs... not a nice way to die. ;) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:10:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Reach out and touch someone At 5:54 PM -0400 5/28/99, Kim Foster wrote: >At 02:44 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >>At 10:14 AM -0400 5/28/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: >>>Am I correct in assuming that Shedim and Kyriotates can posses someone >>>over the phone, at only a -2 to their rolls? Gives a whole new meaning to >>>"Reach out and touch someone"... >> >>Yup, and yup. > >Yikes, I never thought of that. Would their be disturbance for taking >Celestial Form and would it lead to the old host or the new? For Shedim, yes -- and probably to the old host. Though I might well be evil and say _both_, as a GM. >Talk about a means for a quick get away or travel... "Domino's Kyrio Delivery..." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:23:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Shedim Jumping Ship (was: Re: IN> Shedim and Lilim) At 10:23 PM -0400 5/28/99, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > Just a couple questions about the bodyhopping of Shedim... > > Say Sammy Shedite has possessed J. Random Human, and forced him into a >firefight with the local National Guard. Things aren't going too well, and >J.R.'s missing an arm and a decent hunk of rib cage. Sammy's not too >worried, he's got more than enough Body in J.R. to keep popping cops. J.R., >on the other hand, would be pushing up daisies. Sammy spots the friendly >neighborhood Malakite among the cops, gets spooked, pops free of J.R., and >flees for his Heart. J.R. pops off to Hell's waiting line. > > Question 1: Does Sam get dissonance because J.R. died when he left? I'd think no... It was his leaving that caused J.R. to die -- not that J.R.'s death nearly dragged Sammy Shedite down with him. > Question 2: Assume all the damage was caused by irate humans. Does >J.R.'s death give off a Disturbance, since, technically, it was Sam's >leaving that finally killed him? Iffy. I'd probably say not, though. But then, I've got the flu, so don't necessarly take me as gospel today. O:p - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1246 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.