From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jun 13 06:09:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA24771 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 06:09:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id GAA03927 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 06:10:11 -0500 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 06:10:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199906131110.GAA03927@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1256 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, June 13 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1256 In this digest: Re: IN> Habbalh and angels Re: IN> Habbalh and angels Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray Aftermath Campaign Seed Novalis (Was Re: IN> And The Bands Played On) Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Re: Novalis (Was Re: IN> And The Bands Played On) Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Re: IN> And The Bands Played On (Fluffish?) Re: IN> And The Bands Played On ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 20:39:19 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Habbalh and angels Steel Angel wrote: > >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> That one's easy: >> >> Most Habbalah think serve God. But Vapula thinks he *is* God. > > But then, why does he bother to work with other Princes? Perhaps to >further his own work, since they come to -him-, they must really be >serving him, hmm? Mmm...cheesy vignette time... The two demons stood on the surface of the Moon, looking up at the tiny planet floating above them. The first one raised a hand in front of his face, and after a moment of staring at his finger, he said, "When I hold up my thumb I can obscure the entire world. Did you know that, Vapula?." There was a pause that lasted an instant too long, and the second demon asked in a polite, blank and irritating tone: "Pardon?" Kobal frowned, bothered by the lack of attention, but continued anyway. "I think it puts it all into perspective, that by holding up my thumb I can blot out all of human history. It's funny really, how easily what everything every single one of those monkeys has tried can be hidden." Vapula nodded. "A small price to be paid for symmetry, I think." Kobal lowered his hand, and turned to face his companion. "As long as it doesn't involve a long, boring lecture, I wouldn't mind finding out what the hell you mean." Vapula was still looking up the sky as he answered. "The original design, it wasn't symmetrical." In an elaborately casual tone, Kobal asked, "The design of what?" "The universe, of course. I mean, yes of course He was God of Israel, but really I don't think that it was necessary to cater quite so shamelessly to the prejudices of a gang of unwashed sheepherders." Vapula still stared upwards, apparently entranced by the millions of stars shining crystal-clear in vacuum, but Kobal had his whole attention focused on the Prince beside him. Willing Vapula to relax and speak trustingly to him, he said, "This is fascinating, but cryptic. I believe you mentioned a lecture, a moment ago?" "Of course. I mean that a geocentric universe filled with crystal spheres and faces on the deep and all that is very imaginative, and poetic even, but fundamentally it lacks /elegance/. How could He possibly call Himself the Great Architect if His master-work were such a hodge-podge of disparate elements? "I suppose it worked to terrify the primitive Hebrews, but any really sophisticated mind must inevitably tend towards a more austere aesthetic. Mathematical purity and formal clarity are the watchwords of this new age, and it's a good thing that He saw that a steadier hand was needed handed responsibility off to me." Kobal asked, "You think you rule the Universe, then? In the place of Jehovah?" "More like a repairman," said Vapula humbly. "If I say so myself, I've made a fair few improvements to the design of the universe. I laid the groundwork with Newton and his mechanics, and I used Kelvin and Maxwell to build a strong foundation of thermodynamics and electromagnetism." "These, are...changes to physical law, not discoveries?" "Changes to physics, yes, but I'm bragging about old news. All the really interesting things have really happened this past century, what with relativity and statistical mechanics and field theories emerging. I think the end to the Great Work is in sight, despite the opposition we face -- I swear, if it were up to Jean, Aristotle would still be canon! -- but we persevere." "And what then? What how do we other Princes fit into your...Great Work?" Vapula smiled broadly, with the absolute confidence of a child. "Oh, I have no idea. But I'm sure I'll think of something." - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:11:11 EDT From: SdshowTim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Habbalh and angels The reason the hellborn still believe it is because hellborn are created with the Fallen as models, so it seems to be part of the Habbalah force configuration. Even if some demon prince wanted to remove it most of them probably find it more amusing than anoying. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:20:33 EDT From: SdshowTim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On In a message dated 6/10/99 10:27:35 PM, ben@HiWAAY.net writes: <> However Cain probably did have the power, and would be able to go where he damned well pleased (at least after God gave Lucifer the Symphony). Cain would be cool because he's a human who could easily scare a demon prince just by smiling. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 21:37:02 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On SdshowTim@aol.com wrote: > However Cain probably did have the power, and would be able to go where he > damned well pleased (at least after God gave Lucifer the Symphony). > Cain would be cool because he's a human who could easily scare a demon prince > just by smiling. I think you've been reading too much World of Darkness. Cain probably wouldn't scare any Prince much. Caine has -two- 'powers' if you want to get technical. He may be immortal, and anyone who harms Caine will have that returned on them sevenfold. As long as a Prince doesn't directly hurt him, they don't have to care about some miserable, cursed human. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:31:24 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray Aftermath Campaign Seed On 10 Jun 99, at 20:57, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > I can see... > > Neo-Princess Novalis, Prince of Flowers: > > The world is destroyed, but flowers will still grow, > > in the hearts and minds of humanity. > > Good one. Of all the Archangels I see her as one of the most likely to > stay. She's so compassionate that she wouldn't give up on even the > damned. Maybe she and her servitors could keep Uriel's brood company in > the Lower Heavens. And she'd want to look after all the plants. Unless they got to go to Heaven too. Oh, and then there's Jordi. He'd only go if the animals got to go (and if not, I suspect he'd be really, *really*, REALLY upset). And if either or both of the animals and plants go, what's left of Humanity is in big trouble - the food chain humanity depends on is *gone* (even if the stuff like plankton gets left behind, humanity is hardly equipped to subsist on it as a resource). > But didn't everyone meet their Fate, or in the case of the non-damned who > stayed, chose to refuse their Destiny? Hmm. What happened to the children too young to understand the Choice asked of them? And are those mortals left on Earth still fertile? Shane. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 08:49:44 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Novalis (Was Re: IN> And The Bands Played On) Our spies report that on 07:31 PM 6/12/99 +1000, Shane said: >On 10 Jun 99, at 20:57, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > >And she'd want to look after all the plants. Unless they got to go to >Heaven too. > >Oh, and then there's Jordi. He'd only go if the animals got to go (and if >not, I suspect he'd be really, *really*, REALLY upset). > >And if either or both of the animals and plants go, what's left of >Humanity is in big trouble - the food chain humanity depends on is *gone* >(even if the stuff like plankton gets left behind, humanity is hardly >equipped to subsist on it as a resource). > Personally, I have never seen Novalis as thinking plants are the most important thing. Her Word is very symbolic. The plants don't really matter, as I see it, rather their effects on humans are. She's a very humanocentric Archangel, I think. So if the War ended, she might stay for the humans but since unlike animals plants don't have souls, (Her Cathedral isn't said to have dead plant souls in it) she wouldn't be insisting they all be evacuated. This is all just my opinion of course. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:08:09 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 SdshowTim@aol.com wrote: > However Cain probably did have the power, and would be able to go where he > damned well pleased (at least after God gave Lucifer the Symphony). > Cain would be cool because he's a human who could easily scare a demon prince > just by smiling. What? What is this "power" you think Cain has? Biblically (which is one of the few sources for information about Cain), Cain has nothing going for him. He was banished from the presence of God and had a mark set upon him as a sign of that. He wouldn't scare a Demon Prince by smiling, he'd have the Demon Princes squabbling over who gets the first murderer. Richard Gant "I swear, White Wolf annoys me more and more every day..." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:24:02 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On At 12:08 PM -0400 6/12/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 SdshowTim@aol.com wrote: > > > However Cain probably did have the power, and would be able to go where he > > damned well pleased (at least after God gave Lucifer the Symphony). > > Cain would be cool because he's a human who could easily scare a >demon prince > > just by smiling. > >What? > >What is this "power" you think Cain has? Biblically (which is one of the >few sources for information about Cain), Cain has nothing going for him. >He was banished from the presence of God and had a mark set upon him as a >sign of that. He wouldn't scare a Demon Prince by smiling, he'd have the >Demon Princes squabbling over who gets the first murderer. At the same time, I don't think any of them would touch him. Let's face it, it's in no Prince's interest to focus God back on one point in the universe, and have that point be the Demon Prince himself. His Mark makes him unharmable by any, lest the punishment be returned Sevenfold. I would rule that if a Demon so much as scratched Cain on orders of a Prince, the next seven roles of *all* the Servitors of that Prince and the Prince himself would be an automatic 111 Divine Intervention. Furthermore, I think Lucifer would "recommend" any Prince avoid the Demons who served that Prince. From Demon Prince to Bantha Fodder in one easy step. And that's for a scratch. In the "Bright Victory" variant suggested, I would think Cain's immunity would vanish with God. And so any and all Demon Princes who'd been annoyed at that immunity would be after him. At the same time, he *would* be ancient, likely a Sorcerer and (if there is a Dozen) probably one of the Dozen. Adventure seeds a plenty. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:30:04 +0100 From: hjalkar@redbrick.dcu.ie (Kevin Walsh) Subject: Re: Novalis (Was Re: IN> And The Bands Played On) On Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 08:49:44AM -0700, Sean McCarthy wrote: > Personally, I have never seen Novalis as thinking plants are the most > important thing. Her Word is very symbolic. The plants don't really > matter, as I see it, rather their effects on humans are. She's a very > humanocentric Archangel, I think. I think that's overstating things somewhat (or a lot). I imagine that she regards her Word much more symbolically than Jordi, but saying "Novalis doesn't care about plants" doesn't make sense to me. So if the War ended, she might stay for > the humans but since unlike animals plants don't have souls, (Her Cathedral > isn't said to have dead plant souls in it) she wouldn't be insisting they > all be evacuated. > I don't recall that it's said not to have dead plant souls in it. The main rulebook refers specifically to the "emotions of plants". She probably wouldn't insist they be evacuated, of course, but a backdoor would probably have to be built in. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In this section the expression "secret society" means an association, society, or other body the members of which are required by the regulations thereof to take or enter into, or do in fact take or enter into an oath, affirmation, declaration or agreement not to disclose the proceedings or some part of the proceedings of the association, society, or body." Offences Against the State Act, 1939, Appendix A, Section 3.2 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:33:00 +0100 From: hjalkar@redbrick.dcu.ie (Kevin Walsh) Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On On Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 12:08:09PM -0400, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > What is this "power" you think Cain has? Biblically (which is one of the > few sources for information about Cain), Cain has nothing going for him. > He was banished from the presence of God and had a mark set upon him as a > sign of that. Well, I personally wouldn't want God's vengeance sevenfold for kicking him in the shins, but he does have a lot of other problems. (Of course, it refers specifically to slaying, IIRC, but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to other things.) He wouldn't scare a Demon Prince by smiling, he'd have the > Demon Princes squabbling over who gets the first murderer. > How would they torture the essence out of him? > Richard Gant > "I swear, White Wolf annoys me more and more every day..." The problem isn't really White Wolf, it's the people who assume that any of the mythology in White Wolf is genuine mythology without checking it up first. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In this section the expression "secret society" means an association, society, or other body the members of which are required by the regulations thereof to take or enter into, or do in fact take or enter into an oath, affirmation, declaration or agreement not to disclose the proceedings or some part of the proceedings of the association, society, or body." Offences Against the State Act, 1939, Appendix A, Section 3.2 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:34:33 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On At 05:33 PM 6/12/99 +0100, Kevin Walsh wrote: >Well, I personally wouldn't want God's vengeance sevenfold for kicking him >in the shins, but he does have a lot of other problems. (Of course, it >refers specifically to slaying, IIRC, but that doesn't mean it doesn't >apply to other things.) Yep. Although it was more God's gift to Cain than a curse, really " 13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face I shall be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. " - - Genesis 4:13-15, The Holy Bible, Authorized King James Ed. I can't find any reference to Cain's being immortal, though. Also - it would be wiser, I think, to fear his great-great-great grandson Lamech (not Methuselah's son, mind, but Methusael ;). " 23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. 24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.. " - - Genesis 4:23-24, The Holy Bible, Authorized King James Ed. >The problem isn't really White Wolf, it's the people who assume that any >of the mythology in White Wolf is genuine mythology without checking it up >first. Actually, I think the _major_ problem is WW's tendency to Krazy-Glue(™) letters onto the ends of things... but that's going _way_ off-topic. To bring it back on-topic: Hadthael, Malakite Angel of Avenging Cain? (Or would he be a Cherub?) In either case, I can see him staying on after God vanished, possibly in secret, just _waiting_ for someone to lay a hand on Cain... >Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -EDG, Mercurian of Lightning ist Archives, Angel of Information Dissemination ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 13:39:02 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Our spies report that on 12:24 PM 6/12/99 -0400, Whistling in the Dark said: >At 12:08 PM -0400 6/12/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >>On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 SdshowTim@aol.com wrote: >> >> > However Cain probably did have the power, and would be able to go where he >> > damned well pleased (at least after God gave Lucifer the Symphony). >> > Cain would be cool because he's a human who could easily scare a >>demon prince >> > just by smiling. >> >>What? >> >>What is this "power" you think Cain has? Biblically (which is one of the >>few sources for information about Cain), Cain has nothing going for him. >>He was banished from the presence of God and had a mark set upon him as a >>sign of that. He wouldn't scare a Demon Prince by smiling, he'd have the >>Demon Princes squabbling over who gets the first murderer. > >At the same time, I don't think any of them would touch him. Let's >face it, it's in no Prince's interest to focus God back on one point >in the universe, and have that point be the Demon Prince himself. >His Mark makes him unharmable by any, lest the punishment be returned >Sevenfold. No Demon Prince would want to risk that, no. But Caine certainly isn't going to be alive in that time frame. I have a few transcriptions of his cursing below, more are welcome...I have always wondered where this idea he was immortal came from. [NIV] 10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth." ...(Cain whines)... 15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so [5]; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. [KJV] 9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. ...(Cain whines)... 15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. Blah. I'm too tired to copy more. A pipe ripped loose and there was a flood as I wrote this. My point is that nowhere does it say Cain should live forever, merely that God wanted to make sure no one murdered him. His curse was basically a ban against farming. Note that even in ancient times, when Cain is denied the life of a farmer, what does he do? He runs off and builds a city. [ObOtherGameReferenceIfMentioningCain: Caine might scare a demon prince by smiling, but Dworkin definitely would!] Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:35:28 -0500 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On (Fluffish?) At 1:39 PM -0700 6/12/99, Sean McCarthy wrote: >[ObOtherGameReferenceIfMentioningCain: Caine might scare a demon prince by >smiling, but Dworkin definitely would!] Problem is, that Dworkin -IS- a Demon. . . Especially if you consider he was from Chaos, and since Chaos existed before Pattern. . . That, and everyone -else- in Chaos was a Demon. . . So no, Dworkin wouldn't scare any of the Superiors from In Nomine's Hell. He'd fit right in. . . They'd think he's crazy, of course. But since when has being INSANE been a problem for hell? Look at Saminga or Malphas. Both of which are the ultimate in crazed -things-. Worse yet, Uriel killed that damned Unicorn. . . And the Serpent, whom resides in the Pit of Chaos, could just as well be Lucifer. . . Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 04:09:41 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > What is this "power" you think Cain has? Biblically (which is one of the > few sources for information about Cain), Cain has nothing going for him. > He was banished from the presence of God and had a mark set upon him as a > sign of that. He wouldn't scare a Demon Prince by smiling, he'd have the > Demon Princes squabbling over who gets the first murderer. You know, since it -was- the first human death, it would probably be everyone's favourite doofus, Saminga. Kinda funny, when you think about it. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1256 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.