From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jun 14 09:14:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14307 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:14:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA18989 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:14:23 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:14:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199906141414.JAA18989@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1257 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, June 14 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1257 In this digest: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On IN> Wanted Entrepreneurs ! Re: IN> And The Bands Played On (Fluffish?) Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Re: IN> And The Bands Played On IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1255 Re: IN> And the Bands Played On IN> Vapula the Habbalite Re: IN>And the Bands Played On Re: IN> And The Bands Played On (Fluffish?) Re: IN> And The Bands Played On IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1256 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1256 Re: IN> And The Bands Played On ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 09:04:37 -0400 (EDT) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On > You know, since it -was- the first human death, it would probably be >everyone's favourite doofus, Saminga. Kinda funny, when you think about >it. Yup. And - with a slight return to a previous post - in a Vampire/In Nom crossover, I wouldn't hesitate to decide that the "Caine" that the Vampires revere is in fact a demon in Saminga's service with the word of Murder. Jason Schneiderman - --- jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life) werther@hilander.com (play) jayafter12am@hotmail.com (late-night) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:01:28 +0800 From: qeko11@clarendon.ac.uk (viksmel) Subject: IN> Wanted Entrepreneurs ! BIG PROFITS IN IMPORT & EXPORT!!! Make money in the Import-Export business. Fantastic new way to start your import-export business right from your own home. The boom in selling import items to U.S. consumers is creating unprecedented income opportunities. Begin without investing in merchandise. The U.S. Government will help. For information call 1-800-242-0363 Ext. 2358 - -*-*- -*-*- -*-*- -*-*- -*-*- -*-*- -*-*- -*-*- -*-*- If you receive this email by mistake we apologize. You received this email because you have responsed to one of our email survey in the past. (If you do not want to receive mail of this kind just type REMOVE in the subject line and email to intern@mailcity.com We will automatically remove you from further mailings. Exc-521496200-ERd2893e-RV +06133770B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 10:45:45 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On (Fluffish?) At 7:35 PM -0500 6/12/99, Shadowstar wrote: > > Worse yet, Uriel killed that damned Unicorn. . . And the Serpent, whom >resides in the Pit of Chaos, could just as well be Lucifer. . . > A Shadow of the Unicorn perhaps. The grand incarnation of Order isn't going to fall to some overacheiving Archangel. :) And actually Dworkin's insanity is not derived from his Chaos origins but more likely that Unicorn-sponsored art project reflected beneath Kolvir. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 13:27:08 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On At 9:04 AM -0400 6/13/99, Jason Schneiderman wrote: > > You know, since it -was- the first human death, it would probably be > >everyone's favourite doofus, Saminga. Kinda funny, when you think about > >it. > >Yup. And - with a slight return to a previous post - in a Vampire/In Nom >crossover, I wouldn't hesitate to decide that the "Caine" that the Vampires >revere is in fact a demon in Saminga's service with the word of Murder. You know.... There is something terrifically humorous in the idea that the entire angst fi-- er, detailed and well thought out background of the Canites was nothing more than a relatively minor demonic plot.... Who says Saminga and Kobal can't work together? - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:51:51 -0400 (EDT) From: werther@hilander.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On >There is something terrifically humorous in the idea that the entire >angst fi-- er, detailed and well thought out background of the >Canites was nothing more than a relatively minor demonic plot.... Not so sure - after all, this is a VtM/IN crossover, so it'd have to be a pretty prominent one. I see him as a Balseraph of Death, assigned the task of crafting a vampiric religion so that vampires, believing themselves *already* Damned, never feel the compulsion to rebel against Hell. They're so terrified of their (nonexistent) clan founders that they spend all their time keeping each other in check. On the other hand...(checks the attunment of Sam's Bals)... maybe he believes he *is* a vampire. After all...does killing someone with your bare *teeth* cause a disturbance for them? Beth? J ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:17:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1255 > From: Earl Wajenberg > Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > > Caine (But the problem is, if one sticks to the bible he'd be walking > > around Earth, not working in Archives. > > Uh, no, the Bible doesn't paint Cain -- or anyone else -- as wandering > the Earth forever. That's an add-on. Unless you mean the World of > Darkness "bible." Oops. I guess that's what I get for writing stuff with only four hour of sleep the night before. I blended the bible and other stuff on Cain in my mind, though I don't think I got the idea from Whitewolf. I vaugley remember seeing Cain as immortal somewhere else as well, but I can't remember where. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:54:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> And the Bands Played On > From: "Shane" > Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray Aftermath Campaign Seed > > On 10 Jun 99, at 20:57, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > > > I can see... > > > Neo-Princess Novalis, Prince of Flowers: > > > The world is destroyed, but flowers will still grow, > > > in the hearts and minds of humanity. > > > > Good one. Of all the Archangels I see her as one of the most likely to > > stay. She's so compassionate that she wouldn't give up on even the > > damned. Maybe she and her servitors could keep Uriel's brood company in > > the Lower Heavens. > > And she'd want to look after all the plants. Unless they got to go to > Heaven too. As I percieve her she is seems to be more focused on the more metaphorical interpetation of her word as is to its literal meaning. As long as she felt that plants would be alright she wouldn't fret. Maybe she'd stop off and give some advice and any of her servitors who volunteered to Gaia, Demeter, and any other Ethereal Earth and Plant goddesses before leaving. > > Oh, and then there's Jordi. He'd only go if the animals got to go (and if > not, I suspect he'd be really, *really*, REALLY upset). Now that's a possibility. As seen in Heaven and Hell there are animals in Jordi's Savannah (I guess the movie's right, all dogs really do go to Heaven). However, I don't see God taking all the animals. However, he might set it up so that the souls of all animals that die go directly to Heaven, probably Jordi's Savannah in the Lower Heavens. Jordi still might stay if he is concerned about their welfare on Earth. > And if either or both of the animals and plants go, what's left of > Humanity is in big trouble - the food chain humanity depends on is *gone* > (even if the stuff like plankton gets left behind, humanity is hardly > equipped to subsist on it as a resource). No, the animals and plants definitely will stay, but since their souls are automatically pure (they don't have the ability to choose that humans have) then they go directly to Heaven, do not pass Go, do not collect 200 essence. > > But didn't everyone meet their Fate, or in the case of the non-damned who > > stayed, chose to refuse their Destiny? > > Hmm. What happened to the children too young to understand the Choice > asked of them? And are those mortals left on Earth still fertile? Well, since this is In Nomine forwards (actally, it's the In Nomine Dance Remix by DJ Jazzy Lucifer) God would be kind enough to grant them enough understanding of the Choice. Alternatively, he could just mark them, and ask them to choose when they die or when they reach the point of understanding one of Uriel's angels can descend from Heaven and ask him. As for whether the mortals on Earth are fertile the answer is yes. However, there are no new souls being created. God wouldn't create new souls to be born into Lucifer's world without a choice and Lucifer can't figure out the trick of making human souls (As they were created in God's image. Ever notice that both Yves and Kronos true celestial forms are human?) The best Lucifer could probably manage as creating souls in his image, but he's not interested in doing so. So, where are the souls of new babies coming from. Reincarnation. Lucifer was taking 10% of the damned that came into Hell since the beginning. Now that he doesn't need their essence any more he's sending them back into the world at every conception. Also, any of the remaining mortals who are not damned would be reincarnated when they die, unless of course they worshipped one of the Ethereals who have an afterlife set aside for them. Even then, if they choose to they can leave that afterlife and be reincarnated again. It'll be just like standard reincarnation, most likely they won't remember their past life, though they might when they died again. The damned, of course go to Hell. But the Utopia faction knows how to make Infernal Saints, so concievably they could send some back up to be born as sleeper agents in place of another soul. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 19:53:37 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Vapula the Habbalite Nice vignette, Neel. I admit, even I was having trouble figuring out exactly how Vapula's delusion works -- but that was an excellent portrayal. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:13:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN>And the Bands Played On > From: Elizabeth McCoy > At 8:57 PM -0500 6/10/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > >It's not that I'm hostile to the idea of angels remaining. I just can't > >think of a good reason any would stay anywhere past the Lower Heavens. > >But I am flexible on this position. > > What about Outcasts? You're right. Depending on the motivation it is likely for an Outcast to stay. Let's break out the Angelic Player's Guide and take a look. The Repentant: The Repentant Outcast is the most unlikely to stay. It will probably ask for and recieve forgiveness due to the extraordinary circumstances. Thus they would leave with the rest of the angels. The only way I would see a Repentant Outcast staying on Earth would be if they themselves felt they needed to accoplish some pennance before going to Heaven. The Self-Pitying: The Self-Pitying Outcast is more likely to stay because of the fact it believes it was it's Superior who caused its status. Because of that, it's less likely to try going back to Heaven, because it sees the chips stacked against it anyways, and he'd probably not be allowed back in. Self-Pityhood is usually a transitory state. Either they become truly repentant, or they'll become defiant. The Defiant (But Still Angelic): These angels are very likely to stay. Even though the War is over there are still reason to stay and fight. There are still good people left in the world, and even though they chose to stay they still deserve to be protected from being preyed upon. In fact they might believe their effectiveness can only increase now that they are no longer being hunted by Judgement. These outcasts might begin organizing into groups, or if they are opened minded enough, work with the more benevolent Ethereals whose goals complement their own. Some might even choose to work with the Utopia Faction, seeing them as the lesser of two evils, or maybe not tht evil at all. The Defiant (Hellbound): All of these angels will choose to stay. Whether they stay as angels or not depends on how determined they are not to be a demon. Most will try to remain uninvolved neutrals, though if they side with anyone it would be the Utopia Faction, since they seem to have more freedom. These kinds of outcasts have problems with authority, after all. Besides Outcasts, there are other categories of angels who would choose to stay. The Orphaned: Not every Superior lived through Armageddon. Superiors on both sides occured in the Final Battle and they probably had many of their servitors survive them. While some might choose to leave, believing that they would meet the slain resserected in the Higher Heavens, others might choose to stay, either to avenge their Superior's death, or to uphold its Word in memory of it. For example, Belial is one of the survivors. If it turned out that Gabriel had died in Armageddon (And I haven't determined which Archangels died yet) then a large number of her servitors might stay to avenge her, working with Belial's enemies to somehow engineer his eventual destruction. The Committed: Some angels might be so committed to a Word or cause they would choose to stay on Earth to keep working for it. This is more likely for the servants of one Superior than another. Bladine: Devoted to the hopes and dreams of mankind, servitors of Bladine might be motivated to stay in order to ensure that the hopes and dreams of the humans remaing are protected. Many Menunim in particular would choose to stay in order to keep hope alive. These servitors are have a very good chance of working with benevolent ethereals, since some of Bladine's servitors gave covert aid during Uriel's Purity Crusade. David: Servitors of David might remain to aid in the recovery of humanity after the War. They would want to make sure that human society becomes even stronger than before. They might be willing to work with ethereals. Less likely to work with the Utopia Faction, but some might choose them as the lesser of two evils. Dominic: Not many of Dominic's servitors would choose to remain. After all, the damned are getting their punishment of not being in the Presence of God. Still, a few might choose to stay to ensure the non-damned who remained got justice. Eli: Some servitors of Eli might choose to stay to encourage the rebuilding and creation of new things on Earth, while others might choose to stay because "there's just so many cool people and things" in the world." Gabriel: There many cruel people still left, who need to be punished. Also, if any Archangels would stay, she is one of the most likely. If Gabriel survied Armageddon then she might remain to get Belial. Even if she lived and decided to leave, many servitors might stay to help aid his destruction on her behalf. Jordi: Jordi is another Archangel who has a motivation to stay. As being very commited to his Word, Jordi might choose to linger to ensure that the animals have a protector. If he chooses to leave, some of his servitors would likely choose to remain to act in that capacity. Jean: Servitors of Jean might stay around just to help keep Vapula in check. Other than that, there doesn't seem to be much of a reason to choose to stay. Janus: Servitors of Janus might stay to help contribute to the chaos. The entire world has been turned upside down, and the status quo of Hell is in flux. That might be very attractive to those of the Wind. Laurence: Not many servitors of Laurence would choose to stay. The War is over. The Just and Righteous have won. Now it is time to go. Marc: I don't really see strong motivations for Marc's servitors to remain. Some of Marc's servitors might stay to ensure that fair trade always exists on Earth. Michael: Some Michael's servitors might stay to fight the new wars which are sure to come, making sure that the remaining good are defended. One aspect of Michael's War is Deposer of Tyrants, so some of his servitors might choose to side with the Utopia Faction against the Hardliners. Novalis: Novalis's servitors might stay might to work for peace, idealistic enough to believe that even the damned might be able to live together harmoniously without hurting one another. They would try to help in the reconstruction, and would be willing to work with both the ethereals and the Utopia Faction. Yves: Some servitors of Yves might stick around to ensure the destinies of those who chose to stay are reached, and to encourage those who qualify to seek the salvation of Heaven. Christopher: Some servitors of Christopher would stay to look after any children who chose to stay, or have yet to be offered the choice. Zadkiel: Servitors of Zadkiel who stay would be motivated to protect people and groups whom they think deserve and need their protection. Khalid: Some would stay to encourage Faith in those humans who remained, and to maybe encourage them to find Faith in God and quest for Salvation. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:46:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On (Fluffish?) At 7:35 PM -0500 6/12/99, Shadowstar wrote: >At 1:39 PM -0700 6/12/99, Sean McCarthy wrote: [Amber Meets In Nomine] > [Dworkin would] fit right in. . . They'd think he's crazy, of course. But >since when has being INSANE been a problem for hell? [...] > Worse yet, Uriel killed that damned Unicorn. . . And the Serpent, whom >resides in the Pit of Chaos, could just as well be Lucifer. . . Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On At 5:51 PM -0400 6/13/99, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >On the other hand...(checks the attunment of Sam's Bals)... maybe he >believes he *is* a vampire. After all...does killing someone with your bare >*teeth* cause a disturbance for them? Beth? I'd say that so long as the Bal does the deed with his own body, and not a weapon of some sort, then sure, the attunement squelches the disturbance. Here, have a Song of Fangs. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:27:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1256 > From: Sean McCarthy > > Our spies report that on 12:24 PM 6/12/99 -0400, Whistling in the Dark said: > > > >At the same time, I don't think any of them would touch him. Let's > >face it, it's in no Prince's interest to focus God back on one point > >in the universe, and have that point be the Demon Prince himself. > >His Mark makes him unharmable by any, lest the punishment be returned > >Sevenfold. > > No Demon Prince would want to risk that, no. But Caine certainly isn't > going to be alive in that time frame. I have a few transcriptions of his > cursing below, more are welcome...I have always wondered where this idea he > was immortal came from. [Transcripts snipped] Folklore perhaps. I doubt White Wolf came up with Cain's immortality themselves. They had to have gotten it from somewhere. Reading the wording of the transcripts it occured to me that the ban against slaying Cain could equally apply to slaying him Celestially as well. Which would mean after Cain had died of old age (if he hadn't managed to learn the Corporeal Song of Healing) he would have a lot of freedom to roam Hell. And like Adam, Eve, and Lilith, Cain would proably be 15 Force human. A powerful human, walking around in Hell, with no demon daring to harm him due to the mark on his celestial form. Now imagine figuring out that one day, God will leave the world and he'll lose his immunity. I think Cain has moved up in the ranks as a canidate for Sorceror Superior. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 23:39:39 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1256 At 10:27 PM -0500 6/13/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > From: Sean McCarthy > > > > Our spies report that on 12:24 PM 6/12/99 -0400, Whistling in the >Dark said: > > > > > >At the same time, I don't think any of them would touch him. Let's > > >face it, it's in no Prince's interest to focus God back on one point > > >in the universe, and have that point be the Demon Prince himself. > > >His Mark makes him unharmable by any, lest the punishment be returned > > >Sevenfold. > > > > No Demon Prince would want to risk that, no. But Caine certainly isn't > > going to be alive in that time frame. I have a few transcriptions of his > > cursing below, more are welcome...I have always wondered where this idea he > > was immortal came from. > >[Transcripts snipped] > > Folklore perhaps. I doubt White Wolf came up with Cain's immortality >themselves. They had to have gotten it from somewhere. Remember that Biblically, the Early Generations of people (Adam, Methusulah, etc.) lived extremely long lives. There's no reason to think Cain couldn't still be alive simply because he can't get sick (a byproduct of his immunity from harm) and he's lived a careful life. Especially if he picked up Sorcerery. Add learning the Corporeal Song of Entropy... - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:09:32 -0400 (EDT) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On At 9:43 PM 6/13/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >I'd say that so long as the Bal does the deed with his own body, and not >a weapon of some sort, then sure, the attunement squelches the disturbance. > >Here, have a Song of Fangs. Thought of that. I didn't mention it because I wasn't certain that "bare hands" included the use of Songs: NC-Claws comes to mind. If it does, so much the better. Jason Schneiderman ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1257 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.