From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jun 24 11:46:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23442 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:46:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA14575 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:22:50 -0500 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:22:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199906241622.LAA14575@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1265 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, June 24 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1265 In this digest: Re: IN> Do relievers have to fledge? Re: IN> Do relievers have to fledge? RE: IN> Do relievers have to fledge? RE: IN> Do relievers have to fledge? IN> Enhance Your Cable TV......EASILY.... IN> RE: IN- Do relievers have to fledge? IN> Looking for a In PBEM game IN> Web Text Re: IN> Web Text Re: IN> Do relievers have to fledge? Re: IN> Web Text IN> IN: New GM questions Re: IN> IN: New GM questions Re: IN> IN: New GM questions Re: IN> IN: New GM questions Re: IN> IN: New GM questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:12:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Do relievers have to fledge? At 12:29 PM -0500 6/23/99, Acosta, Ben wrote: >Do relievers who grow their way up to nine forces have to fledge? Yes. > Could a >reliever who was pretty much undecided stay a reliever at nine forces? No. >If not, what happens? Does it just fledge into a random choir? Or does the >force just not manifest until the choice is made? GM decision -- I'd generally play it that as the reliever grows, it begins to naturally identify with one Choir or another. (Indeed, in my personal games and fiction, relievers start to manifest elements of their chosen Choir, so you can get mini-Seraphim, or cub-Cherub-relievers, or little swarmlet Kyrios, or a large reliever with black butterfly wings and a sword -- but if you look at one, it's patently a _reliever_.) >Are there guidance counselors in Heaven? Probably angels (and blessed souls!) who serve the same function. Mentors, counselors, "parents"... >Just what do indecisive relievers do when they hit the big Nine? Well, I suggested that if a little Judgment-reliever (who's on the INC) didn't make up its mind, it'd fledge Kyriotate... O:> Also, I have a snake-Cherub (not on the net anywhere) who's a boa constrictor form -- and claims (truthfully) that it was due to indecisiveness when fledging. I suspect that if a reliever _does_ somehow manage to grow to 9 before it decides -- then it _decides_. Moment of truth, moment of choice. All the themes of the Symphony spread out around, and one Will Be Chosen. Or maybe it _doesn't_ get that 9th, if it doesn't know, at least subconsciously (if angels have subconscious) what it wants to be when it grows up. There's not much canon for it. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:57:08 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: Re: IN> Do relievers have to fledge? Elizabeth wrote: > I suspect that if a reliever _does_ somehow manage to grow to 9 before > it decides -- then it _decides_. Moment of truth, moment of choice. All > the themes of the Symphony spread out around, and one Will Be Chosen. IMO, I'd say that Reliever's don't really have the *choice* of which Choir they fledge, but that it's dictated by their personality (so they do get a choice of a sort). For example, a Reliever with it's new 9th Force wouldn't say "Well, I wanted to be a Seraph, but now Mercurian's looking pretty good". Instead, the Symphony would decide based on the Reliever's personality. Truthful, honest Relievers become Seraphim, Protective, caring Relievers become Cherubim, Manic, energetic Releviers become Ofanim, Calm Relievers who obey orders despite the personal struggle/Elohim, Warrior Relievers/Malakim, Strange Relievers who are never satisfied with one point of view/Kyriotates, Friendly, personable Relievers with a flair for politics/Mercurians. It seems to work reasonably well in my game. We apologise for this break in sanity. We now return you to your regularly scheduled reality. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:08:39 -0500 From: "Acosta, Ben" Subject: RE: IN> Do relievers have to fledge? Elizabeth wrote: > I suspect that if a reliever _does_ somehow manage to grow to 9 before > it decides -- then it _decides_. Moment of truth, moment of choice. All > the themes of the Symphony spread out around, and one Will Be Chosen. So, what stops a reliever from fledging as a grigori? And if for some reason one did, what would everyone's reaction be? Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:35:04 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: RE: IN> Do relievers have to fledge? At 6:08 PM -0500 6/23/99, Acosta, Ben wrote: >Elizabeth wrote: > > > I suspect that if a reliever _does_ somehow manage to grow to 9 before > > it decides -- then it _decides_. Moment of truth, moment of choice. >All > > the themes of the Symphony spread out around, and one Will Be Chosen. > >So, what stops a reliever from fledging as a grigori? >And if for some reason one did, what would everyone's reaction be? Mmmmmmmmmmmmm... Perhaps one would start showing the signs, and various angels would start 'nudging' them in other directions. After all, if their fledging is more or less environmentally driven (or personality driven), it should be changable if caught early enough. I suspect a good number of Elohim were redirected Grigori, in this case. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:00:53 +0500 From: leobeuje37@cspq.qc.ca Subject: IN> Enhance Your Cable TV......EASILY.... ENHANCE Your Cable TV! EASY to assemble plans for only $12.00 ! GET THE MOST out of your cable TV by using this SIMPLE "Fine Tuning" device! YOU WILL HAVE GREAT RESULTS! YOU will be enjoying enhanced cable viewing in just a few days! This Cable TV FINE TUNING DEVICE will make your viewing experince MUCH MORE ENJOYABLE! There is one problem though. It may accidentally receive stations that NORMALLY are offered by your cable provider for an additional fee. This would include: BOX OFFICE HIT MOVIES! PREMIUM SPORTING EVENTS! SPECIAL INTEREST PROGRAMING! And even ADULT ENTERTAINMENT! IMAGINE!, YOU will be Fine Tuning ** ALL CABLE CHANNELS!** YOU can easily assemble a CABLE FINE TUNER in only 30 MINUTES! These are the BEST, EASY to Read, EASY to assemble instructions available for this FUN, unique product. We know because we have compared and tested them all and have actually SIMPLIFIED the design and improved them for optimal tuning! ALL your channels will be CLEARER and BRIGHTER! There are only 7 EASY to obtain parts to assemble! The parts are EASILY available at any "Radio Supply Hut" Its so EASY, we even include PHOTOS! This is a great EDUCATIONAL project as well. Hobby enthusiasts of ANY skill level will enjoy learning how this simple circuitry works. REMEMBER though, while FINE TUNING your favorite stations RECEPTION OF PREMIUM STATIONS MAY OCCUR. Viewing pay sations without permission of your cable provider may be illegal........weather you inform them or not is YOUR decision and responsibility. Fine Tuning will not be responsible for any misuse of this GREAT PRODUCT! HOW DO YOU GET STARTED? <:-) <:-) ******** EASY ORDER INSTRUCTIONS ****** Pease send Check or Money Order to: ONLY $12.00 FINE TUNING PMB #287 99 PARK AVE. NY, NY. 10016 Orders including a SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE will be processed 48 hours from the day we receive them. All orders WITHOUT a SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE may be DELAYED. 15 15 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:27:29 PDT From: Micheal Knight Subject: IN> RE: IN- Do relievers have to fledge? >So, what stops a reliever from fledging as a grigori? >And if for some reason one did, what would everyone's reaction be? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that nothing, in theory, does. In practice, though, with no actual Grigori in Heaven, it's very probable that a lack of working models could stop it. But man, if one did, panic time. Micheal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 01:56:50 -0700 (PDT) From: MANDY JON BOWYER Subject: IN> Looking for a In PBEM game Hi, I'm lookng for a IN Pbem game. If anyone is starting one or needs another fairly experinced player please email me at puck@sfsu.edu I'd be happy to play eather a angelic or demonic game. Mandy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:03:42 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> Web Text I'm reading Fiat Justitia, and heading off towards other such things. I have a situation that may not be a full-scale Problem, but is certainly and Annoyance. I'm old fashioned; I hate trying to read anything of length on-screen and want to print it off. There are problems with just printing off the web page, sometimes more serious than just the large amountof paper it uses. But saving it as text and then reformatting is a pain. The

s and other commands aren't much of an issue, but the buggy line wrapping is really getting to me. Does anyone know of a procedure or software that does a decent job of translating HTML back to text? J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:33:56 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Web Text Eeyore wrote: > I'm reading Fiat Justitia, and heading off towards other such things. > Does anyone know of a > procedure or software that does a decent job of translating HTML back to > text? In Netscape, Save as text. Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:26:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Do relievers have to fledge? Leath Sheales wrote: > IMO, I'd say that Reliever's don't really have the *choice* of which > Choir they fledge, but that it's dictated by their personality (so > they do get a choice of a sort). Sounds plausible. I also like the idea that, as they approach the crucial 9th force, you begin to get ideas of what they'll fledge as, in the manner of Elizabeth's cherubinos and seraphettes. (This implies that small/young relievers are very maleable in celestial form.) By the way, consider the possibility of "child prodigy" relievers -- creatures with 8 Forces, but only one of them Corporeal. Such a being might be as smart and capable in every non-corporeal way as many angels, and might be of any age. Ben wrote: > So, what stops a reliever from fledging as a grigori? > And if for some reason one did, what would everyone's reaction be? We know that some celestial "races" are specially manufactured. Only Lilith makes Lilim. Only Blandine makes Menuim. Only Beleth makes Pachadim. Perhaps Grigori were likewise a "synthetic" choir, specially created, never produced by fledging, and now "discontinued." (Of course, it might still be possible for a rogue Archangel to make some new, unlicensed Grigori on the sly. Can you say "Eli"? Or even Gabriel or Jordi.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:17:18 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Web Text I'd try saving the page as an HTML file, then trying to open it in whatever word processor you use. No idea if it'll work exactly the way you want, but it's worth a shot... - -----Original Message----- From: Eeyore To: In Nomine List Date: Thursday, June 24, 1999 6:47 AM Subject: IN> Web Text >I'm reading Fiat Justitia, and heading off towards other such things. I >have a situation that may not be a full-scale Problem, but is certainly >and Annoyance. I'm old fashioned; I hate trying to read anything of >length on-screen and want to print it off. There are problems with just >printing off the web page, sometimes more serious than just the large >amountof paper it uses. But saving it as text and then reformatting is >a pain. The

s and other commands aren't much of an issue, but the >buggy line wrapping is really getting to me. Does anyone know of a >procedure or software that does a decent job of translating HTML back to >text? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:20:24 PDT From: Miles 2 Go Subject: IN> IN: New GM questions Hello all, My first post on this listserve. I've been lurking for a while. I've bought the quite a few of the books, showed them to my RPG group, and got elected to GM. So I'm working to put together a campaign now. I'll be interesed in advice for new In Nomine GMs. Yes, I'm an experienced GM and roleplayer, I'm mostly looking for advice on how to GMing In Nomine is different. Some specific questions: (1) I've bought many of the books, and I'm a little ticked off at the ammount of material that is being just duplicated from book to book. For example the rules for sorcery are repeated in Night Music and the copreal player's Guide. What books are best and why? Does anyone have a website (other than the IN official site) that reviews all the released material? (2) How many celestials are running around anyway? The introductory story makes it sound like there are only four infernals in a city, who are crossed by two angels, and toss in two soldiers. Not many, which seems to track with some of the material. However, then you find lines like Blandine assigns an angel to watch over the dreams of every artist - say what? I'm leaning toward one celestial (or soldier) per 100,000 population, but does that work? (4) In a related question, how many angels are assigned to Earth as compared to heaven. Ok, in Heaven and Hell we find out there are many (undocumented) choirs that are mostly involved in heaven. What about the basic choirs? Are they mostly on earth? 25%, 50%, 75%? (4) Where are the soldiers? In the Revelations series, there are dozens of celestials, but almost no soldiers (or even undead). Are there really more angels involved in the war mortals? The intro story almost implies that most angels have a servant. (5) For that matter where are the other servants gremlins/imps/relievers? Do angels/demons outnumber them on earth? (6) In "Fall of the Malakim" how can two demons take out every celestial in LA? Ok, they have a large ammount of essence, but it still doesn't track. (7) Are the Malakim usable as player characters? I see the point of having stats for Malakim, but that oath, will not suffer an evil to live, seems to be a big damper on role-play. Most of the IN write-ups for demons are not faceless foes to be slaughtered. They have backgrounds and motivations. That kind of information makes a more interesting villian, but doesn't really get a chance to come out if you have a player who immediately tries to kill an infernal who shows up. This is not and idle question. One of my players wants to play a Malakim, but I don't just want to have a game that consists of "the fight of the week". (8) In some initial playtesting I've done, the Copreal Song of Form at level 6 appears to be rather unballancing. Numinous Corpus Acid also seems a bit too powerful. Ok, I realize that most of this can be determined by the GM and apply in your campaign only. So what I'm asking is what worked for those of you who run games. More importantly what didn't work so I can avoid it. So I guess that's my biggest question. What are the pitfalls? What do you watch out for? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:22:14 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> IN: New GM questions In a message dated 6/24/99 7:22:47 AM, miles2go@hotmail.com writes: >Hello all, > My first post on this listserve. I've been lurking for a while. I've >bought the quite a few of the books, showed them to my RPG group, and got >elected to GM. So I'm working to put together a campaign now. I'll be >interested in advice for new In Nomine GMs. Yes, I'm an experienced GM >and roleplayer, I'm mostly looking for advice on how to GMing In Nomine is >different. Some specific questions: > I'll take a swing ( 0:) ) >(1) I've bought many of the books, and I'm a little ticked off at the >amount of material that is being just duplicated from book to book. For >example the rules for sorcery are repeated in Night Music and the corporeal >player's Guide. What books are best and why? Does anyone have a website >(other than the IN official site) that reviews all the released material? > I don't know of any independent reviews, but the general consensus is that much of the Revelations Cycle is if not broken, at least buggy. Evidently there was a gap in line editors which didn't help. I personally would suggest the Libers over the Revelation series. The only useful thing I got out of a Revelations tome was additional servitor attunements for certain of the superiors. >(2) How many celestials are running around anyway? The introductory story >makes it sound like there are only four infernals in a city, who are crossed >by two angels, and toss in two soldiers. Not many, which seems to track >with some of the material. However, then you find lines like Blandine >assigns an angel to watch over the dreams of every artist - say what? >I'm leaning toward one celestial (or soldier) per 100,000 population, but does >that work? > I made it more like one celestial per 20,000 per side, with additional soldiers and mundane servitors around. I always got the impression that the town in the 'Dream' vignettes was not terribly large. >(4) In a related question, how many angels are assigned to Earth as compared >to heaven. OK, in Heaven and Hell we find out there are many (undocumented) >choirs that are mostly involved in heaven. What about the basic choirs? > Are they mostly on earth? 25%, 50%, 75%? > My thought is that less than 10% of the angels are assigned to earth, and that it is a *much* smaller percentage of demons (less than 5%, possibly as little as 1%) assigned to corporeal duty. >(4) {sic-MDE} Where are the soldiers? In the Revelations series, there are dozens >of celestials, but almost no soldiers (or even undead). Are there really >more angels involved in the war mortals? The intro story almost implies that >most angels have a servant. > Two things: It has been ruled that The Vignettes Are Not Canon. The ArchBeth hath spoken. Also, remember the buggy nature of the Revelations Cycle. I'd say that it just means that the author(s) didn't want to write up that many minor supporting characters. >(5) For that matter where are the other servants gremlins/imps/relievers? > Do angels/demons outnumber them on earth? > I ruled that, on earth, there are more fledged angels than there are relievers, by about two to one. >(6) In "Fall of the Malakim" how can two demons take out every celestial >in LA? OK, they have a large amount of essence, but it still doesn't track. > Don't even get me started on FotM. The adventure is broken in approximately twenty places, and you've put your finger on just one of the more obvious ones. >(7) Are the Malakim usable as player characters? I see the point of having >stats for Malakim, but that oath, will not suffer an evil to live, seems >to be a big damper on role-play. Most of the IN write-ups for demons are >not faceless foes to be slaughtered. They have backgrounds and motivations. >That kind of information makes a more interesting villain, but doesn't >really get a chance to come out if you have a player who immediately tries >to kill an infernal who shows up. This is not and idle question. One >of my players wants to play a Malakim, but I don't just want to have a game that >consists of "the fight of the week." > First, finish the Malakite oath. "Do not suffer an evil to live *when it's my choice. * This leaves a lot of room for wiggling, especially when there are conflicting evils or the Malakite is under orders. Also, suffering an evil to live can be wiggled around. Which is better, sending a demon into Trauma, or Redeeming said demon? I know what Yves and Novalis would say. Then there are Malakim of David, who don't have a choice. They *can't* swing first. Lots of choices, here. >(8) In some initial playtesting I've done, the Corporeal Song of Form at >level 6 appears to be rather unbalancing. Numinous Corpus Acid also seems a >bit too powerful. > Have you looked at the Errata and FAQ sections of the In Nomine site? I believe there are some answers there to the mechanics questions. > OK, I realize that most of this can be determined by the GM and apply >in your campaign only. So what I'm asking is what worked for those of you >who run games. More importantly what didn't work so I can avoid it. So I >guess that's my biggest question. What are the pitfalls? What do you watch >out for? > The biggest pitfall is figuring out what the rules actually mean. I ended up with about ten house rules which were misinterpretations of the rules. Also, if you're running an angelic campaign, the angels can get a *ton* of information by scanning random humans, all of which you'll need to come up with on the spur of the moment. I'd suggest looking carefully at the resonances, and figuring out what you'd tell the characters at each result. I was caught flat-footed more than once by my players looking at the wrong person for answers. On top of everything else, the auto-success rules are frighteningly munchkin-prone. You can have a celestial *starting* character who will be able to automatically succeed at his checks with a minimum check die of seven. They won't be terribly balanced, but be aware of the possibility. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:57:43 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> IN: New GM questions From: Miles 2 Go >Hello all, > > My first post on this listserve. Welcome to the listserve, Miles! >(1) I've bought many of the books, and I'm a little ticked off at the >ammount of material that is being just duplicated from book to book. For >example the rules for sorcery are repeated in Night Music and the copreal >player's Guide. What books are best and why? Does anyone have a website >(other than the IN official site) that reviews all the released material? I haven't seen the various Liber books, so I can't comment on them. I do wholeheartedly recommend the three Players' Guides and the first three books of the Revelations Cycle. And one thing to keep in mind about the repetition of material between Night Music and the CPG is that in Night Music, the writeups on Sorcery and Saints were (In My Opinion) included for GMs to create Sorceror or Saint NPCs, while the rules in the CPG are designed for playing them as PCs. To the best of my memory, Fall of the Malakim doesn't have anything that you can't do without, and The Final Trumpet is an adventure, so unless you plan on running a game that centers around the possible end of the world you don't absolutely have to have it. >(2) How many celestials are running around anyway? The introductory story >makes it sound like there are only four infernals in a city, who are crossed >by two angels, and toss in two soldiers. Not many, which seems to track >with some of the material. However, then you find lines like Blandine >assigns an angel to watch over the dreams of every artist - say what? I'm >leaning toward one celestial (or soldier) per 100,000 population, but does >that work? It varies from city to city, so I'd say that you can season to taste. Just keep in mind that some cities are more important to the War effort than others, and will have a lot more celestials on both sides (New York, for instance, has got to be one of the most overpopulated areas on Earth, as far as active celestials are concerned.) And while Blandine may have servitors guarding the dreams of every artist, the vast majority of her servants are working on the Etherial Plane rather than the Corporeal one, IIRC. >(4) In a related question, how many angels are assigned to Earth as compared >to heaven. Ok, in Heaven and Hell we find out there are many (undocumented) >choirs that are mostly involved in heaven. What about the basic choirs? >Are they mostly on earth? 25%, 50%, 75%? I would place the ratio at somewhere between 50 and 75 percent, with the majority of those still in Heaven being either newly-fledged trainees, or Traumatised angels contemplating their hearts. >(4) Where are the soldiers? In the Revelations series, there are dozens of >celestials, but almost no soldiers (or even undead). Are there really more >angels involved in the war mortals? The intro story almost implies that >most angels have a servant. I believe that ther eare indeed more angels involved in the war, far more than there are mortals. Most mortals don't believe strong enough to become directly involved in the war, while all celestials are far too aware of it. >(5) For that matter where are the other servants gremlins/imps/relievers? >Do angels/demons outnumber them on earth? The vast majority of imps and relievers are, I would guess, stuck in either Heaven or Hell until they grow enough forces to fledge. >(6) In "Fall of the Malakim" how can two demons take out every celestial in >LA? Ok, they have a large ammount of essence, but it still doesn't track. They were organised. The others weren't. Strength in Numbers is more than just a cliche- if you work solo, you are a much smaller and much easier target for any group of people who want to take you out. Yes, having nobody to slow you down is a good thing, but having nobody to throw to the dogs can be a real liability. >(7) Are the Malakim usable as player characters? I see the point of having >stats for Malakim, but that oath, will not suffer an evil to live, seems to >be a big damper on role-play. Most of the IN write-ups for demons are not >faceless foes to be slaughtered. They have backgrounds and motivations. >That kind of information makes a more interesting villian, but doesn't >really get a chance to come out if you have a player who immediately tries >to kill an infernal who shows up. This is not and idle question. One of my >players wants to play a Malakim, but I don't just want to have a game that >consists of "the fight of the week". That particular Oath works out best as "Never suffer an evil to live if it is my choice." Check the writeup of Malakim in the Angelic Players' Guide, and have your player do the same. It was a revelation to me to see Malakim portrayed the way they are in the APG, and it changed me from being a devoted Ofanim player to being unable to play anything BUT Malakim. If you want to make sure that your Malakim doesn't turn the game into a hack-and-slash, work with your player to craft Oaths that limit the scope of the mayhem open to him/her. Also, try to get them to play a Servitor of one of the Superiors who gives Dissonance to those who engage in mindless violence, like Novalis, or perhaps David, who (IIRC) has the Dissonance condition of "Never strike the first blow." I haven't run a game of IN yet, but speaking from a player's perspective, I hope these help you get a more concrete idea of what to do with the game. Azzur, Malakim of the Sword in service to Protection ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:07:50 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> IN: New GM questions On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Miles 2 Go wrote: All answers are IMHO. > (1) I've bought many of the books, and I'm a little ticked off at the > ammount of material that is being just duplicated from book to book. For > example the rules for sorcery are repeated in Night Music and the copreal > player's Guide. What books are best and why? Does anyone have a website > (other than the IN official site) that reviews all the released material? The player's guides are more useful and up-to-date than the Cycle books. The repeated rules in the CPG were (as I understand it) reworked to be less buggy and more useful; they're also the most current. As to which books are best, here's my list: Corporeal Player's Guide: Probably the best of the bunch. Welll written, and excellent for both PC and NPC humans. (I'm actually trying to get a Soldiers campaign started because of it.) The "Liber" series: Well thought out, and highly useful. The other Player's Guides: Not as good as the CPG. I'd recommend them, but only after you get the CPG and the "Liber" books. The Cycle books: The descriptions of the locales are good, as far as they go. The expanded Superior sections are very good. The adventures are pretty buggy - Night Music (the adventure) and Los Dineros are the best of the lot. > (2) How many celestials are running around anyway? The introductory story > makes it sound like there are only four infernals in a city, who are crossed > by two angels, and toss in two soldiers. Not many, which seems to track > with some of the material. However, then you find lines like Blandine > assigns an angel to watch over the dreams of every artist - say what? I'm > leaning toward one celestial (or soldier) per 100,000 population, but does > that work? It sounds like it works just fine. I rarely bother with hard numbers myself. > (4) In a related question, how many angels are assigned to Earth as compared > to heaven. Ok, in Heaven and Hell we find out there are many (undocumented) > choirs that are mostly involved in heaven. What about the basic choirs? > Are they mostly on earth? 25%, 50%, 75%? I'd assume that around 75% of the main Choirs are assigned to the War, either on Earth or in the Marches. > (4) Where are the soldiers? In the Revelations series, there are dozens of > celestials, but almost no soldiers (or even undead). Are there really more > angels involved in the war mortals? The intro story almost implies that > most angels have a servant. There should be more. Unfortunatly, they seem to be mostly treated as faceless mooks. (I don't know about the servant part, though. I've almost never seen anyone use one.) > (5) For that matter where are the other servants gremlins/imps/relievers? > Do angels/demons outnumber them on earth? Officially? Probably. IMC, I use them for light work on Earth - things that aren't important enough for Angels or Demons, but still need to be done. > (6) In "Fall of the Malakim" how can two demons take out every celestial in > LA? Ok, they have a large ammount of essence, but it still doesn't track. FotM is buggy as Hell. > (7) Are the Malakim usable as player characters? I see the point of having > stats for Malakim, but that oath, will not suffer an evil to live, seems to > be a big damper on role-play. Most of the IN write-ups for demons are not > faceless foes to be slaughtered. They have backgrounds and motivations. > That kind of information makes a more interesting villian, but doesn't > really get a chance to come out if you have a player who immediately tries > to kill an infernal who shows up. This is not and idle question. One of my > players wants to play a Malakim, but I don't just want to have a game that > consists of "the fight of the week". The Malakim oath you refer to "I will not suffer an evil to live if it is my choice." Sometimes, the Malak doesn't have a choice. Sometimes destroying a small evil (a lone demon) means failing to prevent a greater evil (the kiddie snuff-porn ring run by the Balseraph of Death and the Shedim of Lust). Sometimes the Malak is put in a position where he won't be able to kill the demon just yet. More importantly, vessel-killing a demon doesn't kill the demon. If the player becomes a problem with it, drive the point home. Give the demon an insane Will (11 to 12), and have him keep coming back and continuing his plans. Make the player realize that vessel-killing the demon isn't destroying the evil. Also, there's more to "not suffering an evil to live" than demon-slaying. Not all evils are caused by demons, and not all evils can be solved with the edge of a sword. Let the Malak work to encourage humans to correct the causes of evil deeds and behaviors; far more evil can be destroyed that way than with a hundred swords. > (8) In some initial playtesting I've done, the Copreal Song of Form at level > 6 appears to be rather unballancing. Numinous Corpus Acid also seems a bit > too powerful. I've never seen either used. I believe that there's some errata on NC Acid on the SJGames site, but Idon't know for sure. > Ok, I realize that most of this can be determined by the GM and apply in > your campaign only. So what I'm asking is what worked for those of you who > run games. More importantly what didn't work so I can avoid it. So I guess > that's my biggest question. What are the pitfalls? What do you watch out > for? Don't count on mysteries to work well. Angels kick mysteries to death. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:27:00 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> IN: New GM questions Warning: there's a spoiler for FotM quite a way down. Miles 2 Go wrote: > (1) I've bought many of the books, and I'm a little ticked off at the > ammount of material that is being just duplicated from book to book. For > example the rules for sorcery are repeated in Night Music and the copreal > player's Guide. What books are best and why? In general, if material is duplicated, the later books are Canonical and supercede the earlier ones. (They also tend to be better as well.) My personal opinions: * The IPG is pretty damn good; the APG is OK, but has problems (e.g. the expanded resonance tables). The CPG is useful as a companion to the Servitorum, or if you plan to run Soldiers or other mortals a lot. * The Revelations series is OKish, but a) the scenarios, especially the later ones, aren't much use, and b) some material is duplicated, better, in later books. Their main use is the extended write-ups of Superiors (but note that the extended write-ups are due to be further extended and re-issued), although The Marches and Heaven & Hell are useful for their actual subject matter. Night Music probably isn't worth getting; the rules bits are superceded by the CPG, and the write-up of Laurence is the first to get the extended treatment. * The Liber Reliquarum is a good, solid book about building artifacts; up to you whether you'd use it. It has a few fun ideas in it, as well as actual decent rules for those occasions when you need to make a player pay for something. * The Liber Castellorum is IMO *very* useful - it tells you about Tethers, which will be an important part of the game, and the sample Tethers give you a) plot ideas, and b) give you more of an insight into Superiors' minds. * The Liber Canticorum is, IMO again, an almost indispensable reference (it has handy quick reference sheets at the back for Song costs, durations, disturbance and so on), and also features a hell of new Songs, which can be useful for when you need a new Song or something else to give a player. It's the only thing I always take with me to a session. * The Liber Servitorum, like the Castellorum, is mainly a font of good ideas. Lift NPCs from it bodily, like the excellent Barachel, or mix and match. It also has good ideas for running servants. So: definately get Castellorum, Canticorum, probably Servitorum and Reliquarum, and have a look at the IPG, APG, and possibly CPG. For background, Heaven & Hell is well worth it; try also The Marches. > Does anyone have a website > (other than the IN official site) that reviews all the released material? Check rpg.net. (Just in general principle, but they may have reviews as well.) > (2) How many celestials are running around anyway? The introductory story > makes it sound like there are only four infernals in a city, who are crossed > by two angels, and toss in two soldiers. Not many, which seems to track > with some of the material. Note that it doesn't mention how large the city is, though. > However, then you find lines like Blandine > assigns an angel to watch over the dreams of every artist - say what? I'm > leaning toward one celestial (or soldier) per 100,000 population, but does > that work? First of all, you can't apply hard and fast rules. There are more Tethers, and presumably therefore more Celestials in capital cities; however, a small village in the middle of nowhere might have great significance and therefore have two or three Celestials fighting it out. (Or manoeuvering subtly, depending on whether there are any Malakim and Calabites among the group or not.) > (4) In a related question, how many angels are assigned to Earth as compared > to heaven. Ok, in Heaven and Hell we find out there are many (undocumented) > choirs that are mostly involved in heaven. What about the basic choirs? > Are they mostly on earth? 25%, 50%, 75%? No answers to this in canon. In general, practically all relievers are in Heaven, and most high ranking and major Word-bound spend most of their time in Heaven. Add to that angels in Trauma, and angels who either haven't yet been assigned to Earth duty, are taking a rest, or have been recalled, and you should get - a fair number. Up to you how many angels are on Earth, really. I'd say most. > (4) Where are the soldiers? In the Revelations series, there are dozens of > celestials, but almost no soldiers (or even undead). Are there really more > angels involved in the war mortals? The intro story almost implies that > most angels have a servant. They don't, at least not IMC. I'd say a ratio of two angels to every Soldier in built-up/important areas; in other areas, you might just have a Soldier or two, and no Celestials. > (5) For that matter where are the other servants gremlins/imps/relievers? > Do angels/demons outnumber them on earth? I'd say yes - most new Celestials don't have vessels, and if they do they're assigned to low-risk areas. > (6) In "Fall of the Malakim" how can two demons take out every celestial in > LA? Ok, they have a large ammount of essence, but it still doesn't track. If you start counting the bits in FotM that don't make sense, you'll be here for a long time. (***SPOILER***) My favourite was the bit where an entire party of Celestials is supposed to witness the death of the holiest man on Earth, after having spent time with him and not realised he was exceptionally, almost supernaturally holy. (They're supposed to witness him in prayer at the Mosque, as well.) I went through all the Angelic resonances, and the only ones that would have problems in detecting that would be Cherubim and Kyriotates; the rest would see it as a matter of course. > (7) Are the Malakim usable as player characters? I see the point of having > stats for Malakim, but that oath, will not suffer an evil to live, seems to > be a big damper on role-play. Most of the IN write-ups for demons are not > faceless foes to be slaughtered. They have backgrounds and motivations. > That kind of information makes a more interesting villian, but doesn't > really get a chance to come out if you have a player who immediately tries > to kill an infernal who shows up. This is not and idle question. One of my > players wants to play a Malakim, but I don't just want to have a game that > consists of "the fight of the week". That's easy: presumably some of the other players won't necessarily believe the demon has to be slaughtered right now. Have the PCs argue. Also, Malakim don't necessarily have to kill the demon *right now*. I have had Malakim sit back and watch a demon be redeemed. Hell, there's a Free Lilim in town at the moment, and the local Malakite is letting it live. (For a year; if the Lilim hasn't cleaned up her act within that time, she'll be smote. Which is fair enough.) > (8) In some initial playtesting I've done, the Copreal Song of Form at level > 6 appears to be rather unballancing. Numinous Corpus Acid also seems a bit > too powerful. Have you seen the errata for NC Acid? And yes, it is too powerful as it stands. As for Corp Form - well, OK, you're invulnerable. For a while (at most 36 minutes). Someone turns Corp Form on, you go away, wait, come back when it wears off. Repeat until target is out of Essence. [snip] > What are the pitfalls? What do you watch out > for? That's a major question, and I've written a hell of a lot already. I'll stop now, I think. Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1265 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.