From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Sep 2 07:52:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04165 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:52:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id HAA11413 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:47:34 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:47:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199909021247.HAA11413@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1318 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, September 2 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1318 In this digest: IN> Corporeal Player's Guide Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] IN> MUSH IN> HOW TO MEET BEAUTIFUL WOMEN IN> Uses of Malakim IN> Ethereal Player's Guide (Kronos spoilers) Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Ethereal Player's Guide (Kronos spoilers) Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] IN> Adv: Accept Credit Cards - Guaranteed approval! (20298) IN> Uses of Malakim Re: IN> Corporeal Player's Guide Re: IN> Corporeal Player's Guide Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1315 Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:55:08 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Corporeal Player's Guide >>>I didn't get much of that from the CPG. Yah, it had a lot of new rules and whatnot, but not much that I couldn't have worked out or fudged or myself... I mean, it's pretty easy to work out rules for drugs and poisions, even on the fly.<<< Some people want rules like that provided for them, others insist they don't need *any* new rules, since they can make up all the new powers, skills, artifacts, weapons, etc., that they want. If you're the type who happily writes your own Songs by the dozen, the Liber Canticorum would probably be useless to you. This seems to be simply a matter of different needs. >>>I said earlier that I thought Dave's stuff was usually quite good. In this case, I wonder if he might just have been handed a peculiarly difficult assignment. Making humans work in an IN campaign is *hard*.<<< Yes, it is, since the game isn't really designed around human characters. There really isn't a way to make humans an even match for celestials, since they aren't intended to be, and the game is designed with celestial characters as the default. The intent of the CPG wasn't to make humans more powerful relative to celestials, but to illustrate how they can do useful and interesting things in an In Nomine campaign, despite being less powerful than celestials. >>>Hmm. What in particular? I'm curious.<<< If you've read the sorcery rules in the Marches, this should be apparent. They're extremely arbitrary, inflexible, and inconsistent. In particular, there's not much option for allowing different kinds of sorcerors to perform "magic" in different ways. >>>Sorcerors seem to be designed as an NPC class almost exclusively; I have a little trouble seeing how they'd work as long-term PCs.<<< Oh, I could think of lots of sorceror campaigns. Of course, most of them will wind up with the sorcerors being damned to Hell. But that's kind of the idea. >>>Undead can be interesting, but are limited by the Saminga connection (and, let's face it, if people wanted to play undead PCs there are an awful lot of games better suited to it than this one).<<< Actually, I find undead rather boring in general. While they have interesting uses in In Nomine, I *like* keeping them as third-rate diabolical pawns. >>> That leaves Soldiers, and I didn't notice too many big differences there... did I miss something?<<< No, there weren't too many rules changes per se regarding Soldiers. But a lot of material was added -- clarifications, additional ways to use them, etc. Also they were broken away from the "Soldier of God/Soldier of Hell" straightjacket. Saints (from Night Music) needed several fixes, notably in the way Night Music kind of presented them as half-Soldier, half-angel, and didn't do any justice to the proper role of a blessed soul sent back to Earth. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 02:18:14 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] > > I actually had one player react with surprise when he realized that the > Malakim resonance had nothing to do with combat. Yes - and as I said the Ofanim probably is the best combat Resonance - and yet can be used for other things as well - although the combat bunnies with a detect bad guy power is very handy :) > > > >So why do all Malakim get lumped > >into combat bunny category? > > The writeup in the IN book probably has a lot to do with it! > :) > Superiors learn that they have to give their Malakim fairly detailed > instructions... usually along the lines of "don't do this or this or this, > unless you have permission, or are directly threatened". Otherwise the > Mals would just be walking down the street resonating and killing random > evil humans. Hmm - given the whole cold war thing having a group of celestials who want to create loads of disturbance on a large scale really isn't a good idea. Going back to Uriel - how much noise would his angels be making if they were still taking orders from him in the modern day? I thought it was Michael that had had trouble moving to quieter version - surely Uriel shouldn't have been the type to advocate more noise? > > Mind you, there are ways for the Malakim to be subtle. A number of famous > policemen and prosecutors have been Malakim. Sending an evil human to the > electric chair satisfies their oath just fine. Remember, the Mal doesn't > have to kill the evil himself; he just can't suffer it to live. And if the > jury lets the bad guy walk, hey, it's not the Malakite's fault or choice > (this assumes that the Superior has instructed him to hold that Role, of > course). > The point that they don't have to do it themselves is a very good point - and one I'd somewhat missed. Thanks. Ties in nicely with the points below. > Another point that gets missed is that the Malakite resonance is pretty > handy for digging up information about humans... all humans, not just the > spectacularly good and evil ones. After the Seraphim, the Malakim are tied > with Mercurians for "best Celestial detectives". > > A Malakite who can come down off his high horse can work surprisingly well > with humans. After all, he *knows* who the good ones are. It's easy to > imagine a Mal running a group of Soldiers. The humans would know with > absolute certainty that they could trust each other! > > A Mal could also be used to keep a human organization -- anything from a > corporation to a school to a church -- honorable, upright, and free of evil > influence. Again, careful instructions would keep the Mal from getting > distracted by evil or going on a killing spree. > Hmm - a Malakim recruiting new Soldiers - maybe working with a Kyrio since their Resonance is good for spotting 6 Forcers. Stone should have a lot of Soldiers recruited using this method. Trust - it is such a important thing - and yet in many ways so lacking in the modern world. And the demons do lots to undermine it - even if that is not their specific mission - Malakim on earth could do a lot to change that in any group of people they interact with a lot. Malakim and Mercurians working together - nice. > Mind you, redemption isn't easy or simple; it involves a demon more or less > turning itself inside out. There are probably a dozen plausible potential > candidates for Redemption, already dissonant and Renegade, for every one > that actually makes it. So the angels have to balance potential benefits > -- a redeemed demon is a Very Good Thing, but a dead demon is a Good Thing > too. And, of course, there's always the chance of a ringer... Not easy or simple no - but certainly a valid goal - and angels taking the easy option is not really how I see them :) But I do think there should be groups of angels out there looking for those candidates - and I dislike the idea of angels dealing with potential redemption candidates by destroying them out of hand. And ringers are fairly tricky to pull off - given a moderately competant Seraph nearby. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:47:54 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: IN> MUSH I'm really surprised there isn't an IN MUSH - but I checkde out godlike's prices and I can't quite afford to pay it myself atm - and trying to pay for it as a group is a bad plan cos someone still has to be liable for it all. I assume if any of you were interested and could afford it you'd already have done it - but I might be able to afford it soonish. Email me privately if you would be interested in being staff. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:31:01 GMT From: eddiefaskell@yahoo.com Subject: IN> HOW TO MEET BEAUTIFUL WOMEN HOW TO MEET BEAUTIFUL WOMEN! Time tested I give you pickup methods that are fresh and original and are proven to Work! 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Please contact your local phone company and ask them to remove 900 number call blocking. To get on Faskells upcoming NEWSLETTER list fax your email addy to 810-885-5852 or email me at tobyje@netzero.com, thats a free isp so don't abuse them All information is copywrited and unauthorized thereof is punishable to the fullest extent of the law. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:17:43 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Uses of Malakim [I sent a version of this to the list this morning, but it seems to have disappeared... please excuse if it appears twice] Oh, and -- lest I forget -- the Malakite resonance is the world's handy-dandiest all-purpose blackmail tool. If you want to get a handle on a group of humans, and there's no time to do the nicey-nicey thing with a Mercurian, call in a Malakite and have him dig up a few dirty little secrets. The hapless corporeals will be hopping to Heaven's tune in no time. Hmmm [pauses to think]. You know, there's an odd but interesting idea. Team a Mercurian with a Malakite. Put the Mercurian *firmly* in charge -- i.e., have the Mal's superior say "you must obey your Mercurian partner,and you can't kill anyone without her prior permission, except in self defense or in defense of your partner or an innocent human". Then turn them loose in a corrupt organization... or have them clean up the town full of dirty little secrets. Their resonances, working together, make a formidable combination... and if things get too hairy, the Mal *can* defend them. Plot seed, anyone? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:35:14 PDT From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Ethereal Player's Guide (Kronos spoilers) I might dissent and say that I wouldn't be particularly eager to buy an ethereal player's guide. To me, the game is primarily concerned with the war between heaven and hell, and players probably wouldn't want to play ethereals unless they had particular abilities that celestials couldn't duplicate. This was one problem with the CPG, I think. Not enough was made of human's specialness. The main positive idea I got from CPG was the sentence "It's important for both players and player characters to remember that humans are the REASON for everything." An ethereal player's guide would have problems reconciling different mythoi with the "true" mythos of Heaven and Hell. I'd much prefer to see a Word bound player's guide, or superior player guide (although that would be a bit of a pandora's box - most of the mystique of superiors would be lost if there were rules for them - unless you went the "cinematic only" option - ie no mechanics). What I'd REALLY like to see is a book of adventures, with writeups in as much detail as Feast of Blades. Maybe four adventures (standalone, but with a linked subplot) in the standard IN book size. The subplot could be the player's finding out that Malchristos' theory about Kronos is TRUE... SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone, Angel of the Illuminati ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:43:27 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] >> Superiors learn that they have to give their Malakim fairly detailed >> instructions... usually along the lines of "don't do this or this or this, >> unless you have permission, or are directly threatened". Otherwise the >> Mals would just be walking down the street resonating and killing random >> evil humans. > >Hmm - given the whole cold war thing having a group of celestials who want >to create loads of disturbance on a large scale really isn't a good idea. Point. >> Remember, the Mal doesn't >> have to kill the evil himself; he just can't suffer it to live. And if the >> jury lets the bad guy walk, hey, it's not the Malakite's fault or choice >> (this assumes that the Superior has instructed him to hold that Role, of >> course). >> > >The point that they don't have to do it themselves is a very good point - >and one I'd somewhat missed. Thanks. Happy to oblige. Three other things to keep in mind: 1) A Mal can't suffer an evil to live... but that doesn't mean he has to charge in on the spot, waving a flaming sword and screaming battle cries. IMO, a Malakite can watch an evil (and thereby suffer it) for a reasonable amount of time in order to determine the best way of dealing with it. Some PCs will try to take advantage of this... "I'm not walking away from that evil, I'm going to get some friends and come back to deal with it. Right after I finish the rest of this adventure." My way of dealing with that is by saying that evil, once detected, really *bugs* Malakim, to the point of severe distraction if not dealt with fairly promptly. I tell my Mal PCs that it feels like an internal itch or an irritating buzzing noise... one that, left untreated, will grow and grow until it squeals into Dissonance. This is why they call it "suffering" evil, after all... 2) Mals may also use subtle methods of dealing with evil. A Malakite could resonate on a group of demons, find a few dirty secrets, drop some suitably damning pieces of information, and let them kill each other. Luring the bad guys into traps and firefights with police SWAT teams are also OK (well, it might be a little hard on the cops, but Mals aren't Mercurians after all, and "let God sort them out" is a very Malakite sort of sentiment). 3) Malakim get easier or harder to play depending on the GM's definition of "evil". Canon, probably deliberately, doesn't give us one, and there are some grey areas. IMC, all non-renegade demons are, by definition, "evil" (though some are more evil than others, of course). Humans, though, are trickier. Relatively few humans are evil per se, and Mals don't feel compelled to kill people in order to punish everyday human sin and selfishness. The lawyer who has embezzled some money from a rich client, the businessman who is cheating on his wife, the habitual shoplifter... Mals hate this sort of thing, but they're not going to feel compelled to kill the human for it. IMO, these actions are evil, but they're not evil enough to make the human "an evil" that can't be suffered to live. You've got to be a pretty thorough bastard to be "an evil"... If you want to make the Mals lives difficult, though, you can say that the humans' *actions* are evil... and that this evil must not be suffered. Thus the Mal would feel compelled to intervene to force the lawyer to return the money, to make the businessman break off the affair, etc. I tried this, but backed away from it after a while, because it made Mals too timid about using their resonance... but if they're getting out of hand, it's one way to clip their wings. >Trust - it is such a important thing - and yet in many ways so lacking in >the modern world. And the demons do lots to undermine it - even if that >is not their specific mission - Malakim on earth could do a lot to change >that in any group of people they interact with a lot. Point! Suddenly Malakim of Novalis seem a lot more plausible, don't you think? They work to restore and nurture relationships by supporting honor and trust. And Mals of Dominic and David would work to support trust in institutions... >Malakim and Mercurians working together - nice. See my other post. I think these two choirs would have to work a little to overcome the stereotypes (wussy human-lovers vs. psycho-killers), but they do make a formidable team. >> Mind you, redemption isn't easy or simple; it involves a demon more or less >> turning itself inside out. There are probably a dozen plausible potential >> candidates for Redemption, already dissonant and Renegade, for every one >> that actually makes it. So the angels have to balance potential benefits >> -- a redeemed demon is a Very Good Thing, but a dead demon is a Good Thing >> too. And, of course, there's always the chance of a ringer... > >Not easy or simple no - but certainly a valid goal - and angels taking the >easy option is not really how I see them :) POINT. Firm agreement. Being an angel means doing it the hard way, often, yes. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:02:34 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal Player's Guide (Kronos spoilers) On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, David Streeter wrote: > I might dissent and say that I wouldn't be particularly eager to buy an > ethereal player's guide. To me, the game is primarily concerned with the war > between heaven and hell, and players probably wouldn't want to play > ethereals unless they had particular abilities that celestials couldn't > duplicate. The War between Heaven and Hell is concerned with everything by definition - - and Ethereal plane is one third of all reality after all. But maybe I'm biased by being pagan in real life. Still fiddling with my pagan angel concept. > > This was one problem with the CPG, I think. Not enough was made of human's > specialness. The main positive idea I got from CPG was the sentence "It's > important for both players and player characters to remember that humans are > the REASON for everything." > yeah - I always got very confused when I read the opinions of the various Choirs on Humans - some of them seemed more appropriate for demons to me. > An ethereal player's guide would have problems reconciling different mythoi > with the "true" mythos of Heaven and Hell. Not necessarily too - people don't always believe the Truth - but what can they believe instead can be interesting and reveal more of Truth. Truth is found through diversity. I'd much prefer to see a Word > bound player's guide, or superior player guide (although that would be a bit > of a pandora's box - most of the mystique of superiors would be lost if > there were rules for them - unless you went the "cinematic only" option - ie > no mechanics). > Word-bound PG sounds interesting I agree. Superior - I'd be really interested in it - but I very much doubt it'll ever happen. > What I'd REALLY like to see is a book of adventures, with writeups in as > much detail as Feast of Blades. Maybe four adventures (standalone, but with > a linked subplot) in the standard IN book size. > I've yet to see a pre-published adventure I thought was a good buy in terms of the adventure itself - I find them more useful for working out what kind of plots don't work - The Revelations Cycle was very useful for that :) (No offense to the writers). Not seen Feast of Blades though I must admit - but seen plenty for other games. > The subplot could be the player's finding out that Malchristos' theory about > Kronos is TRUE... > Missed that one - the details on a web-page? Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:08:04 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: > > Actually, I'd say definitely redemptionist... what could be MORE of a > change than a demon repenting, redeeming, and becoming an angel? It > affects things on both sides of the celestial wall, and often makes others > nearby question things about themselves. IMC, Janus is the one who pushes > for redemption the most (and, unfortunately, seems the least bothered - > though still bothered - when an angel falls). > Oooh good point. > > Jean: Not got my book with me - and I can't rem what they get and what > > they do as an assignment - drat. > > They're basically really, really good mechanics. No real assignment given. > With their Superior, I'd say they'd probably have no bias towards either > destruction or redemption; they'd be expected to evaluate each demon and > each situation individually, and act appropriately. I'll take this opportunity to make the point I kind of skirted round in my earlier post - would Malakim all have violent urges towards evil? Is it really that inherent in their nature? And thanks for the info - yeah I'd agree about Jean's expectations. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 12:05:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "adv3000@nfmail.com" Subject: IN> Adv: Accept Credit Cards - Guaranteed approval! (20298) ACCEPT CREDIT CARDS OVER THE INTERNET AND EXPLODE YOUR SALES ** TODAY! ** *Multilevel Marketing *Mail Order/ Phone Sales *Home Based Business *INTERNET BASED BUSINESS *New Business* Small Business Everyone Is Welcome! Regardless of your credit rating, WE GUARANTEE YOUR APPROVAL!! *** REMEMBER *** NO SETUP FEES CALL NOW 1(800) 263-4721 ************************************************************************************* This message is sent in compliance of the new email bill section 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you. TO REMOVE CLICK ON mailto:delete10@nfmail.com?subject=remove ************************************************************************************* ************************** 31382 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:05:58 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Uses of Malakim Oh, and -- lest I forget -- the Malakite resonance is the world's handy-dandiest all-purpose blackmail tool. If you want to get a handle on a group of humans, and there's no time to do the nicey-nicey thing with a Mercurian, call in a Malakite and have him dig up a few dirty little secrets. The hapless corporeals will be hopping to Heaven's tune in no time. Hmmm [pauses to think]. You know, there's an odd but interesting idea. Team a Mercurian with a Malakite. Put the Mercurian *firmly* in charge -- i.e., have the Mal's superior say "you must obey your Mercurian partner,and you can't kill anyone without her prior permission, except in self defense or in defense of your partner or an innocent human". Then turn them loose in a corrupt organization... or have them clean up the town full of dirty little secrets. Their resonances, working together, make a formidable combination... and if things get too hairy, the Mal *can* defend them. Plot seed, anyone? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:55:55 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal Player's Guide Kris Overstreet wrote: > For that matter, I may just pick up the CPG (since I haven't seen a comp > copy in my mailbox I'll have to be a mensch and pay cash), look through it, > and maybe offer a campaign for all sorcerer PCs. Be reeeeal interesting to > see the politics working in -that- one. }:-{D Ooooooh, that sounds like fun! It vaguely borders on Ars Magica (sorcerors banding together for mutual protection and sharing resources) with the added frisson in that most, if not all, of them will wind up in Hell when they die. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:29:35 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal Player's Guide At 1:55 PM -0400 9/1/99, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>I didn't get much of that from the CPG. Yah, it had a lot of new rules >and whatnot, but not much that I couldn't have worked out or fudged >or myself... I mean, it's pretty easy to work out rules for drugs >and poisions, even on the fly.<<< I found the CPG to be excellent in at least three regards: 1) Compilation and repair. Yes, I own _The Marches_, _Heaven and Hell_ etc., but that's a lot of places to find a lot of rules, many of which are broken. Now we have the One Place To Go, and the rules actually work. 2) Concept and Paradigm. The CPG contained a good amount of information on the roles humans have in the War and roles humans *perceive* in the war. The vignettes of the Hellsworn Soldier achieving his Destiny alone presented the elemental differences between humanity fighting in the War and Celestials doing the same. In one second, with one choice, a Human can Redeem or Fall. No dissonance. No discord. Sheer Destiny or Fate, and they *always* have a choice. Up until then, Humans were a Resource you could buy, essentially. 3) Sorcerers and Saints. That both appeared elsewhere misses the point. These are characters in In Nomine that *needed* elaboration and examination. They're a part of the IN landscape and they simply don't fit "Soldierdom." I was glad to see them. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:52:24 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1315 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 10:31 AM -0400 8/31/99, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 1:35 AM -0700 8/30/99, David Streeter wrote: > >> >And now we have YAH, when will WEH come out?** > >> > >> I've been wondering that ever since I heard the acronym. If I ever get > >> a good idea for a book with those initials... > > > > Hey, howabout a guide to restaurants that have become important > >in the War? You can call it We Eat Here. ;) > > Actually... I'd like to do this. No, really! I want to expand on the cooking school Tether in Liber Castellorum and make a new restaurant run by a Lilim of Haagenti (Chef Tina, if you must know). =) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:43:10 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] >The Malakim resonance is for Honour not combat - based on pure Resonance >the Calabim are overall the more effective Celestial fighters - and on the >angelic side I'd say the Ofanim are. So why do all Malakim get lumped >into combat bunny category? 'Historically' in IN I'd blame Uriel - psycho >little freak that he was :) (I like to make my biases clear at the start >:) ), but in game mechanical terms - well the write-ups under each >Superior make it clear. I think the reason they get so assosiated with combat is that they came into existance during battle. They are the Pure, unable to join the enemy, making them the perfect canadites for doing the dirty work of heaven. Their honor holds them together while doing jobs that would make any other angel slip strait into the pit. That being said Angels are not made by a cookie cutter, Malakim are not destined to violence because of the way their choir origionated, they are just good at it (immune to Trauma and all that). They have other uses, and there are sure to be Malakim out there that dislike violence (I'd have to say that Novalis's Malakim would probably dislike violence as much as other Malakim liked it, especially if they get the Seraph attunement as a reward for solving problems with out busting heads). About Ofanim being better fighters that may be true, except the thing that makes demons so scared of Malakim are: 1) You can't make them Fall, its just creepy! 2) Begging for you life will not work, even if your a Balseraph they'll kill you even if they believe you (hell if your a Balseraph they'll kill you before you get to talk). 3) Their are Malakim death squads! Death Squads! If there was an entire squad of divine beings trying to kill you they'd be scary (even individually). And the reason there can be Malakim death squads is because their honor will keep them from Falling while participating in something that isn't entirely on the up and up. But you make a good point, all Malakim characters seem to be exactly the same when their is plenty of room for variation and interesting characters. Timothy, "Angel" of Rambling ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 14:23:02 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] > Warsinger wrote: > Player looking through the IN rulebook in character generation: "I want to > play a Malakim - so I'll take the Fighting, Dodge, Large Weapon etc skills > right?... Oh and Song of Thunder..." > > The Malakim resonance is for Honour not combat - based on pure Resonance > the Calabim are overall the more effective Celestial fighters - and on the > angelic side I'd say the Ofanim are. So why do all Malakim get lumped > into combat bunny category? 'Historically' in IN I'd blame Uriel - psycho > little freak that he was :) (I like to make my biases clear at the start > :) ), but in game mechanical terms - well the write-ups under each > Superior make it clear. As someone who misses the Unicorns and Griffins, I will agree with you on your take on Uriel, but that is IMHO, and has not much to do with what follows hereafter. What makes the Malakim such a combat bunny is their ability to die one round, and, if they have a spare vessel, they can be right back again the next round, before you can finish singing the Infernal version of the Corporeal Song of Healing. They have a fresh vessel, no wounds, no hits taken, and you are still hurting from the 1st round of this boxing match. No Trauma+ a spare vessel= Malakim gun bunnies. [snip] > > David: Already covered above. Although this could be altered a lot with > how you see David - as per Fall of the Malakim - er he's probably too > stupid to have an opinion on the issue frankly, but if you look at the > idea of growing stronger in groups - then a group an angels pciking a > demon to take into that group to gain some of their strength of spirit > doesn't seem that unreasonable. Not your average Malakim of Stone > admittedly - but an interesting potential. Oh and any Malakim of Stone > can use the time while he waiting for his foe to attack to attempt a > conversion natch :) [snip] And if I were a demon looking for someone I could go to for help in redeeming, I would either look for a Servitor of Destiny, of Flowers [Yes, Novalis is a Cherub, and more than capable of kicking b*** when she needs to, but... She just doesn't feel the "need to" very often], or Stone, since they can't throw the first punch, which gives me time to convince them that I _am_ sincere in my desire to Redeem. Destiny can't do anything that will send one to their Fate, Novalis frowns _heavily_ on getting into any unnecessary fights, and Stone Servitors can't throw the first punch. These are the things that make them the first ones I would go to if I were a demon looking to Redeem. Anyone else, you are rolling the dice and hoping not to crap out. Another note: I would go looking for a Seraph, not a Malak, of the above Superiors -- they will *hear* the truth in me, and be quicker to believe me, than a Malak, who knows what kind of a demonic a**hole I have been. Eloh would be my second choice of target Choir; with their Choir Resonance, they will know how I truly feel about Redeeming. Cherub would be my last choice if I was just trying to scam them, i.e.. was not sincere, since they could possibly track me down, from just one meeting. They are the ones who, once twisted and Fallen, become Stalkers. And they are used to mixing it up, in order to protect their charges. [Note for IN 2ed.: Make the Cherubim your Gun Bunny choir with No Trauma *if* they die while their charges are still in danger.] Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "Not a dog... Not a wolf... All he knows is what he is _not_ ... If only he could see what he _is_." -Boris, "Balto" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:11:43 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Douglas Muir wrote: > > >So why do all Malakim get lumped > >into combat bunny category > > The writeup in the IN book probably has a lot to do with it! > And again, their inability to compromise with demons.. > > Mind you, there are ways for the Malakim to be subtle. A number of famous > policemen and prosecutors have been Malakim. Sending an evil human to the > electric chair satisfies their oath just fine. Remember, the Mal doesn't > have to kill the evil himself; he just can't suffer it to live. And if the > jury lets the bad guy walk, hey, it's not the Malakite's fault or choice > (this assumes that the Superior has instructed him to hold that Role, of > course). > It also goes against -everything- a Malakite stands for, as much as a Cherub deliberately trying to create a 'Nemesis Attunement' (APG). 'Hey, it's not -my- fault if the jury let him go.' is NOT a Malakite talking. I dunno what it is, but it's not a Malakite. If the Malakite -knows- that human was guilty and -can- do something about it, and -knows- that that human is out there, getting away with evil...it's Dissonant. It's also disgusting behavior for an angel...I'm sure most Superiors aren't going to be happy with the cop out, either. > Another point that gets missed is that the Malakite resonance is pretty > handy for digging up information about humans... all humans, not just the > spectacularly good and evil ones. After the Seraphim, the Malakim are tied > with Mercurians for "best Celestial detectives". > Oh yeah, I just recently played a Malakite of Judgement who posed as a cop and 'blackmailed' a lot of info out of humans by threatening to release - -little- things they've done. He was pursuing a -much- greater evil and, by pointing the little evils out, doing a bit to make the human act a bit better in future. > > A Malakite who can come down off his high horse can work surprisingly well > with humans. After all, he *knows* who the good ones are. It's easy to > imagine a Mal running a group of Soldiers. The humans would know with > absolute certainty that they could trust each other! > Again, of course. Granted, they're 2 steps removes 'Divinely', but they can manage if they want. > > >The third option of cource is removing the evil. Redemption. > > Excellent point. > > >I can certainly see some deeply honourable Malakim of Flowers working to > >redeem the Fallen - I was always a little uncomfortable with the blanket > >statement that Novalis has few Malakim as they are too violent - I don't > >really like the immediate equation of Honour with violence - surely some > >Malakim could find another way to show their honour. > And risking massive Dissonance as demon after demon cuts out on the 'soft touch'. Remember, trying to redeem the Fallen carries a -very- great risk that they will betray you if you don't already -know- they're sincere about it. And if they're sincere about it, and you -know- it, then it's -quite- a different matter. Look how the Brights swoon over the Malakim for an example of how the really Redeemable differ from the average demon. > Daniel, Malakite of Judgement ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:01:42 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Warsinger wrote: > > I can certainly see some deeply honourable Malakim of Flowers working to > redeem the Fallen - I was always a little uncomfortable with the blanket > statement that Novalis has few Malakim as they are too violent - I don't > really like the immediate equation of Honour with violence - surely some > Malakim could find another way to show their honour. And I can see > Malakim of War having some following both attitudes - recruitment of a > valuable resource is better than its destruction after all - and there are > plenty of hints in the books that Michael is that pragmatic (er his Saints > in particular). The rest of the Malakim of War might not generally know > of them perhaps... > You're missing a -huge- point, here. The average demon DOESN'T WANT TO BE REDEEMED. So when they spit on your offer and go commit evil, it's Dissonance time for the Malakite. Unfortunately, with demons, the best way to keep their evil from 'living' is to send them back to Hell -as well as- foiling their plots. Sending them back to Hell after that is a way of making -sure- that they're out of the loop for a while or, if they've displeased their Prince...permenantly. Remember, when it comes down to brass tacks, the average demon is going to play you like a fiddle if you think you're going to be able to 'show them the error of their ways'. > > Hmmm - another point here is the general fear demons have of Malakim - > particularly with regard to the 'quick' help Malakim sometimes give a > potential demonic Redemption candidate - I sincerely hope that they hadn't > found confirmation via Resonance or other Celestial means that the demon > was a true candidate - I don't see any Archangel being happy with a > trigger happy Malakim at that point - even Laurence understands the value > of military intelligence after all. Basically angels are discouraging > demons from attempting to Redeem which is wrong - I know an argument can > be made about the importance of Faith - but there is also a reasonable > argument that since the demon has removed itself from God's grace it is up > to it to find it's way to a suitable angel as part of its penance and > expecting divine help is egocentric in a way they should be trying to deny > at that time. But that debate always comes up with Faith - it is > described better for IN in the APG (IIRC). > Again, if a Malakite sees that a demon -wants- to Redeem, then, more than likely, they -will- help. It's a permenantly destroyed evil. Remember, when you're -being a demon- (the mindset) a Malakite will not, -cannot- be bargained with unless you set him on an even -nastier- target. And even then, he may very well come back for you. It isn't that Malakim have to be combat-monsters, it's the fact that their relationship with demons usually - -forces- them to either be -very- crafty, or able to take the average demon apart alone, or with help, or know someone who can, since, unlike many Choirs, they -cannot- ignore them. > When you get down to it, you have to remember that -most- demons (and their numbers are vast) don't want to be redeemed and are irrevocably selfish. It's fine to make a Malakite who -can- be nurturing and helpful when he finds a demon who honestly -wants- to redeem. But usually, that Malakite is going to be pegged for a sucker and get a great deal of Dissonance from failed converts. Just as it is not a Mercurian's place to strike down humans, it is not a Malakite's place to try and convert the enemy. It's just how things are... - - Daniel, Malakite of Judgement speaking for Abracax, Shedite of Riots > > ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1318 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.