From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Sep 3 15:17:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19003 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:17:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA07407 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:13:12 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:13:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199909032013.PAA07407@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1320 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, September 3 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1320 In this digest: Re: IN> Rules questions Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Attunements Re: IN> Rules questions (Pulling Punches) Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] IN> A brief digression: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Rules questions Re: IN> Attunements IN> Plot Seed: Welcome to Gibson City! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 19:50:16 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Rules questions Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 7:07 PM -0700 8/31/99, Janet Anderson wrote: > >1. If a Malakite resonates a human possessed by a Shedite, does he get > >results from the human, or from the Shedite? > > To some extent, this is up to the evilness of the GM. I would say that > _generally_ the resonance picks up the controlling personality, which is > (most of the time) the Shedite. I thought Shedim rode the host in a dreamlike state wherein the host knows everything that goes on and thinks it's all -their idea-. The Shedite uses its Will to 'push' the human into deeds they otherwise might not do. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 19:56:26 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Tim Groth wrote: > But you make a good point, all Malakim characters seem to be > exactly the same when their is plenty of room for variation and interesting > characters. > > I suppose it just depends on where you look. The last Malakite I played > actually had a sense of humour and played with the -words- of a promise he > made to an Imp. The Imp was in a rat vessel, he caught it and hauled it into > the car the group had stolen from some dead human drug pushers. While > interrogating the rat, it asked, "Why should I tell you anything? You'll just kill me anyway!" The Malakite replies, "If you give me a bigger fish to go after, I might let you go." The imp spills the beans on a Word-bound in the city that set the imp to watch some 'satanists' to make sure the wanna-bes didn't screw anything up. The Malakite nods, and the Seraph of the group picks up what thje Malakite -meant-. The Rat says, "Okay, I told you, now lemme go. The Seraph notes, "You didn't tell him where he could find any fish." The rat screams, and the Malakite breaks its little diabolical neck. After all, it was just a promise, not an Oath. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 04:03:25 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > Umm, no it's not. Trauma is -hardly- pointless, nor is having a -demon- endng up > back in Hell to face an angry Prince. In fact, it's one of the -worst- things you > can do to them. Also, Redemption takes -time-, and all the while you're working > someone, he's off hurting people while you stad by and watch it. Unless you try to > Redeem them in oh...a single day, you're going to get Dissonance. > (Odd things with line wrap here on my screen btw - but I left it alone cos it is probably just an account thingy) Anyway - Trauma - most demons have as high as Will as they can manage - quite a few will have decent coporeal Forces so the rolls may not be all that often but they have got a good chance of making it when they do roll. Angry Prince - yes possibilty - and if they are out of favour then they have a rather fatal problem - but they are not necessarily out of favour - and the Prince my be interested in knowing what happened to them - and of they get to talk they have a chance to grovel their way out of it. After single day get Dissonance - that wasn't the way I saw their condition at all. But since this is a direct rules question - anyone know for def? > > You gotta take it with a grain of salt. It just says they might give some > -quick- help, Malakim do not have nurturing natures. Which is true. Then again, > Ofanim aren't patient, either. It's the rule, but there are exceptions. Ofanim not patient is direct from their Resonance - Honour and nurture are not mutally exclusive in the way. This is the point I've been trying to make all along. The Malakim nature is not necesarily violent. > > > > I'm afraid you'll have to accept that most demons are selfish. It's what > > -makes- them demons. Every single book won't budge on that point. When it comes > > down ot it, what makes them demons is the fact that they will -always- help > > themselves first, -always-. Yes - no problem with this. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 04:05:31 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > The Rat says, "Okay, I told you, now lemme go. > The Seraph notes, "You didn't tell him where he could find any fish." > The rat screams, and the Malakite breaks its little diabolical neck. > After all, it was just a promise, not an Oath. Even ignoring the rest of this example - I really have trouble with the notion of the Virtues breaking promises. Not technically dissonant - but it is close and ought to make them feel a bit uncomfortable. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 20:05:12 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Douglas Muir wrote: > > IMO, a Malakite cop who busted a bad guy would get very, very annoyed if > the jury let him go (or if he walked on a technicality or a plea bargain, > or whatever)... but he wouldn't get Dissonance, unless it was *his* fault > the crook walked (i.e., he failed to read his Miranda rights properly, or > some such). > > And, keep in mind, a Malakite cop or prosecutor is fighting evil about as > directly as any human can. Yeah, some crooks will walk, but most won't -- > they'll be punished, and in some cases executed. This should make the > Malakite very, very happy. What country do you live in? Not the US, that's for sure. Drunk drivers who have killed -27- people get out after about 11 years and get to drive again. Yeah, that's just. Most crooks -do- walk, or do so little time it doesn't matter. Go read some books about the judicial system in the US, it'll be a sobering experience. Or canvas the news for the 'penalties' your average rapist or child molster gets and how -many- times they get out to do it again. An angel can do -more- than a human, and is expected to. And Role or not, a spare vessel comes in -awfully- handy right around then. And Role or ot, Celestials have access to abilities that let them get away with a -lot- if they're careful. So maintaining a Role can be seen as 'Keep this Role intact, but I don't care what else you do as long as it serves the Word.'. > > >It's also disgusting behavior for an > >angel...I'm sure most Superiors aren't going to be happy with the cop out, > >either. > > ? > > Angels are capable of doing all sorts of disgusting things in order to > further the greater good. And, let's face it, a Malakite in a Role as a > cop or prosecutor could do a *lot* of good, even if it means that he > occasionally has to grit his teeth and watch a bad guy go free for a while. > A wise Superior will carefully explain that this is the cost of doing > business in an imperfect system designed by imperfect (human) beings. The > occasional crook who beats a rap will annoy the angel, but it won't cause > him Dissonance, and (I suspect) he'll likely put the annoyance into his > work, determined to catch the next one. > Again, I don't think you really know how -broken- the judicial system is. It's not a -few- crimansl that go free, according to some estimates, 90-95% of any given criminal defense lawyer's clients are guilty, and maybe 60% of them are convicted, then the appeals and plea bargaining begin... > > Also, if a really serious evil were going to be unleashed -- a disguised > demon, a serial rapist, a completely ruthless murderer -- the Mal could > (and doubtless would) send a message to the home office, asking for a > special waiver. The justice system moves slow enough so that there's time. > So, when the Impudite of Fleurity who has been pushing drugs all over the > South Side strolls out of the courtroom (after having Charmed the jury, and > maybe slurped some Essence from them as well), he's probably going to be > walking into a very, very special welcome... > Again, this should be second nature for -every- criminal that Malakite sees walk on a serious charge. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:27:24 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Attunements Our spies report that on 07:01 PM 9/2/99 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy said: >At 6:40 PM -0400 9/2/99, Chris Bergstresser wrote: >> And do distinctions need to be granted in order? (Can an angel have >>"Friend of the Shareholders" without having "Vassal of Trade"?) > >Yes. (No.) > Translation: You can be granted a Friend level distinction without being given the Vassal distinction first. However, the effects are the same as adding them both at the same time in terms of the powers gained. The only differences would be social...and wouldn't that be a GLORIOUS thing in Heaven to be so honored? In Hell, it would be an even bigger target sign on your back than a normal Distinction. All this is IMHO, but it's strongly grounded in previous list discussion. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 22:39:25 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Rules questions (Pulling Punches) > >2. What are the mechanics, if any, for a character "pulling a punch," as > >when (for example) a Strength 9 Malakite wishes to subdue (i.e. knock > >unconscious) a human possessed by a Shedite without doing the human any >more > >damage than can be avoided? > >None to my knowledge. I'd probably halve the damage, and/or require a >separate Fighting roll, or something like that. "The GM can assign bonuses or penalties to any roll due to *his own conception) of good or bad footing, positioning, line of sight, or whatever." IN pg 61 RISK "With the GM's approval, players may choose to increase or decrease the risk of any action they attempt. In these cases the GM should require the player to describe *exactly* what his character is doingto make the task more or less risky. If [the GM] approves, he raises or lowers the target number by 1 (no more). "Increasing the risk with also add 1 to the check digit of the roll, resulting in grander success or a bigger flop." Oooh, a four instead of a three . . . oooh . . . heh heh "Making the risk less *subtracts* 1 from the check digit, making failures less severe and successes more mundane." IN pg 39 With the apparant lack of clear guidance in the Main Book (no, I didn't bother to look through the how-ever-many-there-are supplements for additional combat rules), I would make it up. Suggestions: going with the suggestion on page 61 (see quoted text above), One could assign a penalty to the Malakite's Fighting skill roll to only knock the poor human unconscious. And/Or, instead of combining the Malakite's Fighting + Strength, combine the angel's Fighting plus Precision for the roll. And/Or, create a new attack with a new Power rating. A normal punch is, what, Power -3 or something sad like that, make an attack called Knockout Punch, or Judo Chop! that's Power -6, Acc +1, with the special effect that the CD of a successful roll knocks the person unconscious for "Damage" in minutes (or Damage in Corp Forces x 10 minutes). - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "If you're not making mistakes, you're not trying hard enough." - Allen R. Sandage ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 04:15:06 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] Steel Angel wrote: Trauma is -hardly- pointless, nor is having a -demon- endng up back in Hell to face an angry Prince. In fact, it's one of the -worst- things you can do to them. Also, Redemption takes -time-, and all the while you're working someone, he's off hurting people while you stad by and watch it. This is a good point. It takes some effort for a Prince to make up a vessel and send a demon off to earth. They don't do it so that the demon can lounge around, kick back with its mortal friends, and take it as a rest cure. Every demon on earth is there to corrupt mortals (either directly or indirectly) and grab as many souls as possible for Hell. It's what they do on a day to day basis, even if some of them don't realise it (ie. Lust, Gluttony, Technology etc. prolly do think that they are on earth to have fun). So, from the Malakite's point of view, every day that an unredeemed demon is let loose on earth is a day on which it might damn another human soul with its infernal powers. If that happens, that soul will weigh on the conscience of THAT angel for eternity, because he had the power to kill the demon before it acted, but stayed his hand out of false mercy. That's why it is worthwhile killing demonic vessels, unless the angel is fairly sure that doing so would lead to a worse evil. If a demon may be a redemption candidate, but would damn 50 human souls before redeeming, then the angel is quite at its leisure to decide that the mortal souls are more important. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:46:35 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] At 4:05 AM +0100 9/3/99, Warsinger wrote: >On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > > > The Rat says, "Okay, I told you, now lemme go. > > The Seraph notes, "You didn't tell him where he could find any fish." > > The rat screams, and the Malakite breaks its little diabolical neck. > > After all, it was just a promise, not an Oath. > >Even ignoring the rest of this example - I really have trouble with the >notion of the Virtues breaking promises. Not technically dissonant - but >it is close and ought to make them feel a bit uncomfortable. It falls under the same as Seraphim using Fast Talk to get around the truth, or a Mercurian saving the life of a potential new servant, then having that servant be the one to kill his assailant and drain his blood so she can summon her superior and get her God Gun back. (Why no, I *can't* let Nichole's trip to Hell go. Why?) In other words, it's something they *can* do, but the more they do it, the more they're acting contrary to their nature, and the slipperier the slopes to Hell become. In the case of Malakim, of course, they can't actually *Fall,* but then if a Malakite continues to flout honor, sooner or later his fellows will make Force-kibob out of him. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:50:15 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] At 7:56 PM -0700 9/3/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Tim Groth wrote: > > > But you make a good point, all Malakim characters seem to be > > exactly the same when their is plenty of room for variation and interesting > > characters. > > > > I suppose it just depends on where you look. The last Malakite I played > > actually had a sense of humour and played with the -words- of a promise he > > made to an Imp. The Imp was in a rat vessel, he caught it and >hauled it into > > the car the group had stolen from some dead human drug pushers. While > > interrogating the rat, it asked, > >"Why should I tell you anything? You'll just kill me anyway!" >The Malakite replies, "If you give me a bigger fish to go after, I might let >you go." >The imp spills the beans on a Word-bound in the city that set the imp to watch >some 'satanists' to make sure the wanna-bes didn't screw anything up. The >Malakite nods, and the Seraph of the group picks up what thje >Malakite -meant-. > >The Rat says, "Okay, I told you, now lemme go. >The Seraph notes, "You didn't tell him where he could find any fish." >The rat screams, and the Malakite breaks its little diabolical neck. >After all, it was just a promise, not an Oath. It says right in the Malakim description that a Demon who believes a Malakite who says he'll let him go if he cooperates is a poor sap who's about to die. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:11:25 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] At 8:05 PM -0700 9/3/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Douglas Muir wrote: > > > > > IMO, a Malakite cop who busted a bad guy would get very, very annoyed if > > the jury let him go (or if he walked on a technicality or a plea bargain, > > or whatever)... but he wouldn't get Dissonance, unless it was *his* fault > > the crook walked (i.e., he failed to read his Miranda rights properly, or > > some such). > > > > And, keep in mind, a Malakite cop or prosecutor is fighting evil about as > > directly as any human can. Yeah, some crooks will walk, but most won't -- > > they'll be punished, and in some cases executed. This should make the > > Malakite very, very happy. > > What country do you live in? Not the US, that's for sure. Drunk >drivers who have killed -27- people get out after about 11 years and >get to drive again. Yeah, that's just. Most crooks -do- walk, or do >so little time it doesn't matter. Go read some books about the >judicial system in the US, it'll be a sobering experience. Or canvas >the news for the 'penalties' your average rapist or child molster >gets and how -many- times they get out to do it again. An angel can >do -more- than a human, and is expected to. And Role or not, a spare >vessel comes in -awfully- handy right around then. And Role or ot, >Celestials have access to abilities that let them get away with a >-lot- if they're careful. So maintaining a Role can be seen as 'Keep >this Role intact, but I don't care what else you do as long as it >serves the Word.'. This treads the waters of being Dissonantly Off-Topic, but it's also pretty darned innaccurate. Frankly, the fact that there are a *few* criminals who are released on a technicality or a media circus -- and that these are the ones who get media attention -- doesn't make such behavior *typical.* And an eleven year prison sentence for what remains, in effect, involuntary manslaughter is *hardly* a "light" sentence. Whereas a man convicted of the cold blooded murder of 27 people is locked away forever or, in some states, killed. Ted Bundy. Charles Manson. And so on and so on. An Angel in a Role, especially a Malakite, should use that Role as a weapon. They shouldn't go around flouting it, because that blunts the blade of it. A Malakite Cop shouldn't become a vigilante, because that kind of behavior both damages the Role (and therefore the Malakite's effectiveness) and promotes a selfish "taking the Law into his own hands" behavior that ultimately creates more Evil than the human had initially caused. When a high profile evil walks, occasionally -- *occasionally* -- a Malakite might see the need to call in his brothers and see that a more direct justice is done, but frankly 95% of criminals get punished, hard. To cut their heads off because the Malakite doesn't think it's hard enough does more harm than good, really. > > > > >It's also disgusting behavior for an > > >angel...I'm sure most Superiors aren't going to be happy with the cop out, > > >either. > > > > ? > > > > Angels are capable of doing all sorts of disgusting things in order to > > further the greater good. And, let's face it, a Malakite in a Role as a > > cop or prosecutor could do a *lot* of good, even if it means that he > > occasionally has to grit his teeth and watch a bad guy go free for a while. > > A wise Superior will carefully explain that this is the cost of doing > > business in an imperfect system designed by imperfect (human) beings. The > > occasional crook who beats a rap will annoy the angel, but it won't cause > > him Dissonance, and (I suspect) he'll likely put the annoyance into his > > work, determined to catch the next one. > > > > Again, I don't think you really know how -broken- the judicial >system is. It's not a -few- crimansl that go free, according to some >estimates, 90-95% of any given criminal defense lawyer's clients are >guilty, and maybe 60% of them are convicted, then the appeals and >plea bargaining begin... Oh, I'd *love* your sources for those statistics. I really would. URLs would do but I have a good interlibrary loan program so ISBNs or magazine names and articles will do just fine. Also, are you claiming this is national? Local in your area? Statewide? Inner city? What levels of crime? Criminal misdemenor? Felony? Furthermore, almost no criminal is released on appeal, unless there was *flagrent* misfeasence in the initial trial. Claus Von Bulow comes to mind -- the Prosecution literally manufactured evidence and coerced witnesses to proclaim it, to "ensure justice would be done," and Von Bulow was convicted. Note this is largely what you're claiming the Malakite should do. So, on appeal this comes out, and Von Bulow goes free. Because "the ends justify the means" *doesn't* *work,* and the courts have to work that way. Frankly, Von Bulow (who may or may not have killed his wife -- we'll never know at this point) is a lesser evil than what amounts to framing a man for murder and suborning the criminal justice system in the process. As for plea bargains -- well, contrary to police dramas, plea bargains are extended purely as tools. A prosecutor might agree to a plea bargain to extract evidence in a far more serious case, or because their own case isn't strong enough to ensure conviction of the criminal in a full trial situation. In other words, a Plea Bargain is a tool that allows prosecutors to punish greater evil at the expense of lesser evil. Which is so utterly Malakim I don't need to elaborate. Finally, "90-95% of any given criminal defense lawyer's clients are guilty" is a nonsense statement. Even if we set aside the presumption of innocence for discussion's sake (though it pertains), there is no way to get workable statistics for guilt or innocence unless the defendents are filling out surveys at the end of the case and being honest. ("ARE YOU GUILTY? YES/NO. WAS THIS A MISCARRIAGE OF JUSTICE? YES/NO.") Most defendents for whom there is any significant circumstantial evidence will be convicted. If there isn't significant circumstantial evidence, they shouldn't be convicted because people are "just sure he's guilty!" > > > > Also, if a really serious evil were going to be unleashed -- a disguised > > demon, a serial rapist, a completely ruthless murderer -- the Mal could > > (and doubtless would) send a message to the home office, asking for a > > special waiver. The justice system moves slow enough so that there's time. > > So, when the Impudite of Fleurity who has been pushing drugs all over the > > South Side strolls out of the courtroom (after having Charmed the jury, and > > maybe slurped some Essence from them as well), he's probably going to be > > walking into a very, very special welcome... > > > > Again, this should be second nature for -every- criminal that >Malakite sees walk on a serious charge. Whereupon the Malakite gets hauled up to his Superior and smacked around for interfering far too much for far too little effect. About the third time he asks for a "special waiver," the Superior frowns a little, and says "you know, Bordial, I think this was a mistake. I thought you had the temperament to work inside of a human institution, but you lose sight of the larger picture to focus on the small potatoes. I think we'll move you back into Celestial Accounting for the next thousand years and see how well that goes for you." - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:50:02 -0400 From: "John J. Maurer, esq." Subject: IN> A brief digression: - ----- Original Message ----- From: Steel Angel To: Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 11:05 PM Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] > What country do you live in? Not the US, that's for sure. Drunk drivers who > have killed -27- people get out after about 11 years and get to drive again. a) Do you KNOW they get to drive again? My guess is that they do not. b) After 11 years in jail, someone's life is effectively ruined. They will never hold a job again. c) Since the news has given the name of this particular drunk driver, I suspect their life will be unending hell. (not that it shouldn't) >Yeah, that's just. Most crooks -do- walk, or do so little time it doesn't matter. Go read > some books about the judicial system in the US, it'll be a sobering experience. How about this. I spent 2 years in the Public Defender's Office in Fulton County (Atlanta, GA). Most crooks don't walk. Probably over 90% of people CHARGED plea guilty whether they are guilty or not. Of those, probably about 30% get some sort of probation. The other 70% go to jail for over a year. Most states are eliminating parole. The Federal Government already HAS eliminated parole. I often described my job as "holding the defendant's hand while he went to jail." > Or canvas the news for the 'penalties' your average rapist or child molster gets and > how -many- times they get out to do it again. The problem with reading newspapers is that you only hear the stories that are exceptional. For every news story about a rapist or child molester getting out you don't hear over 1,000 stories of where the slimeball goes to jail and they throw away the key. Most child molesters have to spend their entire sentence in solitary confinement because the other inmates will KILL them. (again, not that I would lose much sleep). The news gives you an inflated sense of what happens in criminal trials. > Again, I don't think you really know how -broken- the judicial system is. It's > not a -few- crimansl that go free, according to some estimates, 90-95% of any given > criminal defense lawyer's clients are guilty, and maybe 60% of them are convicted, > then the appeals and plea bargaining begin... Where do you get your statistics? Over 90% of criminal indictments lead to guilty pleas! Criminal appeals are rare as hen's teeth and rarely result in a reversal. Plea Bargaining you can have a problem with depending on your view of the punitive justice system. It is my opinion that the legislature has vastly inflated sentences in the mistaken belief that it will decrease crime. A plea bargain can be viewed as allowing a more equitable sentence. Also, becuase the legislature has criminalized so many things (largely drugs. During my work at the PD office at least 80% of my cases are drug related) if we tried every case that was indicted we would need 9x the lawyers and judges we have. Just a pet peeve, back to the angels. :) John J. Maurer, esq. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:04:37 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] >> IMO, a Malakite cop who busted a bad guy would get very, very annoyed if >> the jury let him go (or if he walked on a technicality or a plea bargain, >> or whatever)... but he wouldn't get Dissonance, unless it was *his* fault >> the crook walked (i.e., he failed to read his Miranda rights properly, or >> some such). >> >> And, keep in mind, a Malakite cop or prosecutor is fighting evil about as >> directly as any human can. Yeah, some crooks will walk, but most won't -- >> they'll be punished, and in some cases executed. This should make the >> Malakite very, very happy. > > What country do you live in? Not the US, that's for sure. Drunk >drivers who >have killed -27- people get out after about 11 years and get to drive >again. Yeah, >that's just. Most crooks -do- walk, or do so little time it doesn't >matter. Go read >some books about the judicial system in the US, it'll be a sobering >experience. Friend, I can PROMISE you that I have more experience with the US justice system than you do. Intimate, first-hand, long-term experience. And while it's a long way from perfect, it's not broken anywhere near as badly as you seem to think. Creeps who walk get a lot of publicity, but for every one of them, there are several who go straight to the Big House. And even the ones who walk tend to end up there eventually. - -- I note that this topic is dangerously close to descending into a general discussion of the US justice system. So, if you want to discuss this at more length, let's take it _off-list_, please. >An angel can do -more- than a human, >and is expected to. And Role or not, a spare vessel comes in -awfully- >handy right >around then. And Role or ot, Celestials have access to abilities that let >them get >away with a -lot- if they're careful. So maintaining a Role can be seen as >'Keep >this Role intact, but I don't care what else you do as long as it serves the >Word.'. Well, a Mal with a spare vessel could go out and whack crooks without endangering his Role, sure. Although it would probably be easier (as Elizabeth pointed out) for him to notify the nearest Malakite of Fire or some equivalently aggressive troubleshooter. BTW, just to make sure we're on the same wavelength here... IMO a Mal is not going to be grossly upset by small-time evil. A shoplifter or petty burglar who walks on a technicality will annoy the Mal, but probably not to the point where he feels the need to chase the crook down. We're only worried about serious evil here IMO -- murdererers, rapists, demons. And, frankly, there aren't all that many of those walking out of the justice system. > Again, I don't think you really know how -broken- the judicial system >is. It's >not a -few- crimansl that go free, according to some estimates, 90-95% of >any given >criminal defense lawyer's clients are guilty, and maybe 60% of them are >convicted, >then the appeals and plea bargaining begin... What *interesting* statistics. Cites for these? [Again, let's take the responses off-list]. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:03:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakim At 10:44 AM +0000 9/3/99, Leath Sheales wrote: >Beth wrote: > >> And #4: If they happen to have another vessel, then even _killing_ them only >> slows them down a minute or two. Or less. (Malakite gets vessel-death. >> Malakite shows up at Heart, PO'ed. Malakite yells, "HEY RUBE!" A bunch of >> Malakim (and others, probably) who have vessels and spare time congregate. >> The Malakite descends to his last corporeal location (where his other vessel >> was killed) with all his buddies. Demons go, "AW ****!") > >Unless it's been errata'd somewhere, or changed, the main rulebook >states that *any* celestial who is killed can avoid trauma if they >have a spare vessel. Therefore this trick works for everyone, not >just Malakim. You can avoid Trauma if you have a spare vessel _in a Body Bag_ or if you can swap vessels just before/as your current one is getting killed. This _OUGHT_ to be main-book errata, and if it isn't I'm going to certainly send it in because it fell on the errata coordinator's floor somewhere. The errata isn't a change, however, but a clarification of what "If he has another mortal body to go to _right then_" means. Ah, here's where it says "a few hours" -- for _non-Malakim_ angels! ("The warrior Malakim, accustomed to death, are immune to Trauma. [...] But if another celestial is physically killed on Earth, his Forces will manifest a few hours later, near his Heart [...].") Both of those are on p. 67 of the main book. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:08:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakim [Longish] At 7:44 PM -0700 9/3/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Warsinger wrote: > Umm, no it's not. Trauma is -hardly- pointless, nor is having a -demon- endng up >back in Hell to face an angry Prince. In fact, it's one of the -worst- things you >can do to them. Also, Redemption takes -time-, and all the while you're working >someone, he's off hurting people while you stad by and watch it. Unless you try to >Redeem them in oh...a single day, you're going to get Dissonance. If you have a true redemption candidate, they're not going to be off hurting people unless they're a Shedite or a non-Heart-shattered who's got nasty Dissonance Conditions (such as, say, Dark Humor or Factions) and doesn't want to turn into a pile of Discord. Serious redemption candidates (at least from the Malakite point of view) can be diverted to minor or no harm while the Malakite is busy psyching them into being interested in redemption. (And a redemption-prone Shedite in a Hellsworn's body might be allowed more leeway in what it could do...) >> > When you get down to it, you have to remember that -most- demons (and >> > their numbers are vast) don't want to be redeemed and are irrevocably selfish. >> >> I can't really accept the idea that most demons are that selfish - the >> possibility exists that every demon - even Lucifer himself will redeem. >> Simply - the angels are right. Even in more indeterminate version of the >> setting - everything has a choice to make about their actions and morality >> - and that choice can be made at any time and changed at any time. >> >> I'm afraid you'll have to accept that most demons are selfish. There's perhaps a difference between "that selfish" and "selfish," period. And _how_ selfish _most_ demons are is a judgment call for the GM, which will be part of what dictates the Brightness or Darkness of the campaign, not to mention the Contrast. (See the forthcoming GMG for more on this, or have other people tell you about it. O:> ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:09:23 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Rules questions At 7:50 PM -0700 9/3/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 7:07 PM -0700 8/31/99, Janet Anderson wrote: >> >1. If a Malakite resonates a human possessed by a Shedite, does he get >> >results from the human, or from the Shedite? >> >> To some extent, this is up to the evilness of the GM. I would say that >> _generally_ the resonance picks up the controlling personality, which is >> (most of the time) the Shedite. > > I thought Shedim rode the host in a dreamlike state wherein the host knows >everything that goes on and thinks it's all -their idea-. The Shedite uses its >Will to 'push' the human into deeds they otherwise might not do. Yes. But the Shedite is clearly _in control_, no matter what the host thinks, _because_ the human goes along trivially with anything the Shedite suggests (up to the point of a corrupting Will roll). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:14:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Attunements At 8:27 PM -0700 9/2/99, Sean McCarthy wrote: >Our spies report that on 07:01 PM 9/2/99 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy said: >>At 6:40 PM -0400 9/2/99, Chris Bergstresser wrote: >>> And do distinctions need to be granted in order? (Can an angel have >>>"Friend of the Shareholders" without having "Vassal of Trade"?) >> >>Yes. (No.) >> >Translation: You can be granted a Friend level distinction without being >given the Vassal distinction first. Well, _teeeeechnically_ what would have happened is you got the Vassal _and_ Friend Distinction one right after the other, *poof*poof*. (Not that you get one without the other.) So you'd have the funky powers of both, and you'd HAVE both, though you'd probably just write the higher of the two down on your character sheet. And yes, it would garner a LOT of attention for you to jump two grades at once. (Indeed, I can't think of anything except _maybe_ saving the world which would be likely to get any Archangel _that_ pleased with you.) >In Hell, it would be an even bigger target sign on your back than a normal >Distinction. Oh definitely. Especially if you're not about 16+ Forces and already powerful as all heck. (And then there's Nybbas... O:> ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:07:58 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Plot Seed: Welcome to Gibson City! The recent discussion of Malakim has given rise to a plot seed... Gibson City is a town of 10 to 15 thousand people, located somewhere in middle America -- Wisconsin, perhaps. Twenty years ago, it was a typical post-industrial rustbelt town, with high unemployment, soaring crime, a dismal school system and a dying downtown. Today, however, it's one of the nicest places to live in America... perhaps in the world. It's angels. Gibson City is just infested with them. One or more Superiors has singled out the town for special attention (I'd guess Novalis has to be one of them, and possibly Yves as well, but you can fill in the details to fit your campaign). Gibson City serves two functions for Heaven. First, it's a social laboratory, where angels can try out new tactics for improving human life and society. A variety of angelic projects are being field-tested here... not whiz-bang devices (Jean has his own places to test those), but ideas for helping humans be happier and better. If something works well in Gibson City, the angels will try applying it on a larger scale elsewhere. Second, it's a training ground for new angels who are arriving on Earth for the first time. These novice celestials are brought into town for training courses in human society and culture, in a safe environment where there are plenty of other angels around to cover any mistakes they make. The long-term resident angels have worked to instill a tolerance for mild eccentricity among the locals, so the sight of (say) someone walking down the street with pants on backwards and mismatched socks doesn't attract nearly as much attention as it might elsewhere (Gibson City isn't the only such "training camp" on Earth, of course; there are at least two others, training angels who are going to work in non-Western cultures). There are about twenty angels living more or less permanently in the town, plus about half that many temporarily in residence for training or short-term projects (FWIW, this is about ten times as many angels as there "should" be in a town of this size IMC). Most of the angels have Roles that let them blend quietly into the human society of the town; few are in obvious positions. Thus, the Mayor is human... but his secretary, a nice little old lady, is actually a Mercurian who uses her resonance on everyone who passes through his office. The school principal is human, but the PE instuctor is a servitor of Destiny (hey, *everybody* has to go to PE, and it's a good place to scan those young lives for interesting possibilities...). A homeless man who hangs around the park -- a very mild, non-threatening fellow, who stops people and offers to do sketches for a few dollars -- is actually an Elohite. His job is to train Celestials who are going to take on these sorts of roles in urban settings (they appear as homeless people who have drifted in from out of town, of course), but he also checks the emotional health of everyone who uses the park, and reports potential problems. The major exception to this rule of obscurity is the town Sheriff, who is a Malakite. Everyone in town knows Sheriff Mitchell, and (almost) everyone respects and likes him. Unsurprisingly, over the last 20 years Gibson City has turned into a *great* place to live. The angels are supposed to be busy with their own projects, but it's their nature to do good, and so inevitably the town has benefited from their presence. Today, Gibson City is a town with wonderful schools... a small but vibrant downtown... a modestly booming economy... and very nearly zero crime. It has an improbably high proportion of honest lawyers, kindly doctors, hard-working public servants, and people who will cross the street to give directions to a stranger. Mind you, Gibson City is *not* Pleasantville -- that is, it's not a hive of 1950s-style conservatism and conformity. There are three coffee shops downtown, and a funky little independent bookstore (the sort of place where there are armchairs for browsers, and a fireplace in the wintertime; there's a startlingly good music scene, and a small but active gay community; local politics is bipartisan, and hotly (but politely) contested. Again, the angels try to encourage tolerance of diversity and eccentricity, for their own good purposes; the peculiarities of Celestials, especially inexperienced ones, will be that much less obvious. The result is that the town isn't just a nice place to live, it's also surpringly hip. Gibson City doesn't have a Tether yet, but the angels are hoping. A few years ago, an old railroad bridge, abandoned and condemned, was converted into a pedestrian bridge across the river; a community organization then undertook to line the bridge with large flowerboxes, which are rented out to residents for a small annual fee. Retirees and hobby gardeners have turned the bridge into a veritable hanging garden, and it has become a modest tourist attraction; Novalis believes that the Flower Bridge is now a proto-Tether. For the moment, though, angels (and demons) would have to visit the nearest big city (at least an hour away) to find a Tether. Hell doesn't know about Gibson City -- yet. Uses for Gibson City: Obviously, this can be a place to introduce new angels to Earth. You can run a short introduction here, or you can just mention it in passing from time to time. You could also have angels take a break here; the town is a popular place for angelic R&R (of course, angels don't take vacations as such, but some like the occasional change of scene). You can also place various sorts of secret projects in the town, and let the angels get involved in them... If you've bought _You Are Here_, several of the locations from that book would fit very nicely. The town could also be fit into _The Final Trumpet_! Let the PCs bond to the town, then have it be the site of an Apocalyptic disaster. Players tend to get upset when you describe their favorite bookstore going up in flames... Demons, of course, are not welcome. Two demons have wandered into Gibson City in the last decade; both were detected fairly quickly; one was killed (a bizarre and tragic accident), while the other, a wandering Calabite, was quietly observed until he left town, and *then* killed. The angels don't want Hell to know what's going on in "their" town. It's getting harder and harder to conceal it, though. The "Gibson City Renaissance" has gotten a lot of attention in recent years, and the town has just been listed as one of the 100 best places to live in America. The angels, of course, have very mixed feelings about this. Demonic PCs could be sent to Gibson City to investigate the town that's too good to be true... or they could be looking into a missing demon (perhaps Sheriff Mitchell got a little too trigger-happy). This would be a good way to bushwhack an overly-cocky group of demons; unless they're *very* powerful, they're going to get into a lot of trouble, very quickly. However, a group of demons who could find out the truth about the town, and survive to report it back to Hell, would probably be richly rewarded. Subsequently, a group of experienced and subtle demons might be send in to ruin the place, corrupting the town and perverting Heaven's plans there. This would be particularly appropriate for Balseraphs, Lilim, Impudites and Sheds, and Servitors of Fate, Lust, Drugs, Factions, Dark Humor and Greed. "Corrupting Gibson City" could become an entire campaign if the GM liked -- a dangerous one, but potentially *very* rewarding, if the demons can ruin some of Heaven's special projects here. Less subtle sorts of demons might try other things; a Calabite of Belial would probably try a bomb in City Hall, while a servitor of Saminga would likely try to engineer an anthrax outbreak or some sort of horrible industrial accident. Some other possible plot seeds: - -- Sheriff Mitchell is getting bored and restless; almost all of the evil has been run out of Gibson City, so he doesn't have enough to do. He may have started moonlighting in nearby towns, or even going to the big city for the occasional spot of evil-bashing. PCs, whether angels or demons or Soldiers, might encounter him there and follow him back... - -- One Superior has become convinced that Gibson City has outlived its usefulness; it's too successful, and is going to attract too much attention. S/he wants to move the various projects elsewhere. Some angels may be *very* unhappy about this; they, too, have found this town a nifty place to live. And even angels can intrigue against someone else's Superior... - -- A kindly Cherub takes pity on a Renegade demon and sends it to Gibson City for help. The local angels are *not* amused; they have to either kill the thing, or conceal the truth about the town from it while they decide what to do next. The demon is a possible candidate for redemption, so there is not unanimity about this. Could be played from either side... - -- An angel who knows all about Gibson City becomes outcast. PCs are instructed to bring her in before she can spill the beans. As it turns out, she has already been contacted by demons, who are going to be very curious as to *why* Heaven is so interested in this particular outcast... - -- Gibson City is causing one overly thoughtful angel to be in danger of Falling! She's looking around and seeing that the angels have created something very close to Heaven on Earth... and she can't understand why God doesn't "scale up" the Gibson City model to the entire world. Sure, it would eventually mean giving up the secret of the War... but there's so much misery and suffering out there, and Gibson City is so wonderful... This troubled spirit (probably an Elohite or a Mercurian, though she could be of almost any Choir) has become both Discordant and Dissonant; she's trying to conceal her condition, but her faith is slipping away. Introduce her as an NPC, slip some hints about her deterioration, then let the PCs be there when she Falls. Depending on which choir she is, this could go several different ways... but I'd play it so that the PCs are at least encouraged to ask some basic questions: why CAN'T angels do more of this sort of work, why IS God keeping Heaven's resource's limited, and so forth. Alternately, you can leave plot seeds out of it, and just have Gibson City be a place where angelic PCs come to kick back now and then. And, after all, the more attached to it they become, the more fun you can have when Hell finally breaks loose there... cheers, Doug M. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1320 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.