From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Sep 8 14:08:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14309 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:08:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA15333 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:02:47 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:02:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199909081902.OAA15333@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1323 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, September 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1323 In this digest: Re: IN> Top Ten Religion Stories of the Millennium Re: IN>Malakim [long] IN> How do people play demons? Re: IN> How do people play demons? Re: IN> How do people play demons? Re: IN> "Rev. Pee Kitty, How do people play demon? Re: IN> "Rev. Pee Kitty, How do people play demon? Re: IN> How do people play demons? Re: IN> "Rev. Pee Kitty, How do people play demon? RE: IN>Malakim [long] Re: IN> "Rev. Pee Kitty, How do people play demon? Re: IN> How do people play demons? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 13:55:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Top Ten Religion Stories of the Millennium Thank you for the pointer. > They acknowledged it's slanted towards Christianity (as the > commentator put it "it was that kind of millennium"). It is, after all, a Christian calendar that defines the beginning and end of the millenium, in this case. > > * The Great Schism > * The Crusades > * The spread of Islam > * The Gutenberg Bible > * Religious patronage of the arts (The Renaissance) > * The Protestant Reformation > * Missionary movements > * The flight of Puritans to America, and the principles of > religious freedom > * The 19th century challenges to religion (Darwin, Marx, Freud, > Nietzsche) > * The Holocaust and its aftereffects (i.e. Israel) The 19th century challenges to religion might reasonably include biblical criticism and the like. If they were to include aftereffects, the way they do for the Holocaust, they'd then be able to include the Christian Fundamentalist and Evangelical movements, since these were a deliberate response to biblical criticism and general theological liberalism. There was a major upheaval in religious activity in America, in the mid-19th century, resulting in the creations of Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventism, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and Spiritualism, along with the tradition of the revival meeting. I suppose it doesn't deserve to be on the top ten, but it would be nice if it could be wedged in with, say, missionary movements, or perhaps as an aftereffect of one of the 19th century challenges, though I confess I don't know what the provoking challenge would be. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:40:11 -0700 From: "emmanuel francois" Subject: Re: IN>Malakim [long] Sorry ahead of time, i get wordy. This is bad because i have a poor typing speed! :o Steel Angel wrote: >To paraphrase the main rulesbook. If you hear a Malakite tell a demon he'll >let it go, you've just seen a Malakite lie to some poor, bastard demon who's >about to die. Guess honour might only -really- apply to the honourable, which >is pretty common in a lot of cultures. i think there's a bit of confusion between 'honour' as devotion to an ideal and 'honour' as devotion to the ideals of chivalry. i'm not the ultimate history buff, but as i understand it, chivalry came out of the Crusades as the ideal of the pious knight, humble before God, who fought not for his own glory and pride but for the greater good. These warriors were among the movers of society at the time (ie. the people everyone else looked to) and, since they were supposed to be pious, adhered to Christian moral principles as much as possible for someone who has to shove steel through other people's internal organs. Myth, legend, romanticism and change altered and added things, and people don't carry swords around anymore, but Western civilisation tends to hold as 'honourable' those things that were close to the knightly ideal: be humble, treat others fairly, be loyal to your friends, keep your word, and so on. However, that's only one code of honour, and it's a more restrictive one that that which most Malakim live by. Let's look at the Japanese samurai. They were, like European knights, very honour-bound warriors. They were devoted to their lords as knights were. However, they did not bow to any greater religious authority. While knights were supposed to fight for true, lasting ideals, as set forth by the One True Lord (who is eternal and everlasting), many samurai were into Buddhism, especially Zen, which teaches that all things are impermanent. Knights were allowed to take joy in God's Creation, and fought with passionate devotion, but my understanding is that the ideal samurai would strive to be calm and dispassionate. One very big difference: samurai who failed horribly in their duty had to atone with their own death, by their own hand (and seppuku is a really horrid way to go). It was the samurai's obligation. A true knight, on the other hand, would never contemplate suicide. He might be torn by remorse, he might beg God to strike him down, but he was NOT to take his own life, no matter how much he longed for death. Only the Will of God decided when one's time came, it was hubris and blasphemy to try to force the Lord's hand. So, the samurai's honour _demanded_ suicide, while the knight's honour _forbade_ it. A more recent moral debate: abortion. Is it right or wrong? Abortion, to put it plain, is murder: the willful termination of another human life. Most people think murder is wrong. But an unplanned pregnancy can really ruin someone's life. Some young mothers have ended up on the streets because their families threw them out when they found out they were pregnant. And what if you could determine that the child will be born with terrible deformities? Or severe mental retardation? Is that life worth living? Is it right to say 'tough luck' to the parents and force them to spend the rest of their lives nursing a child too sick to fully take part in life but not sick enough that modern technology can't keep her alive, indefinately? Some people (the 'right to life' group) believe that it is wrong to terminate a life, no matter what. It's not that they want the parents to suffer, it's just that they believe it is plainly _wrong_ to kill off a person like that. They simply refuse to compromise on this principle. They are honour-bound to that ideal. Have you ever been in a group of friends when someone cracked a joke that you felt was thoughtless or discriminatory, but which made everyone else laugh? Did you challenge the person right there, in front of everyone? i rarely have. i feel bad about not saying anything, but i'm not always brave enough to step into the spotlight and take everyone else to task. What if they take it badly? What if it starts an argument? What if...? In such cases, i failed to live up to my personal ideal, to my own code of honour. We all have our own, individual opinions about what is right and wrong, and we all encounter situations where our adherence to these opinions is tested. Sometimes, we fail ourselves, sometimes, we exceed ourselves. That's where the Malakim, the Virtues, come in. They symbolise personal honour and integrity. Note the Malakim Check Digit Results chart (In Nomine, core rules, p.101). The Malakite always discovers good and bad deeds of the subject as judged by the _subject's_ personal standards. They don't usually judge the individual's values, but how selflessly that person adheres to them. (They do like to see people with virtuous codes of honour as well, tho.) Ultimate example (taken from The Angelic Player's Guide): Adolf Hitler. 'By an infinite number of standards Hitler was evil - by all save the single standard that matters to a Malakite. Hitler strictly adhered to his own grotesque sense of morality.' He was utterly selfless - virtuous - in his devotion to his ideal. Alas, his ideal was totally sick. So, in the 'if you hear a Malakite say' example, that Malakite's code of honour did not include 'treat filthy, selfish, putrid, Diabolical scum, which live only to sully and pervert the beauty of God's true Symphony, with far more fairness and honesty than they treat us or, for that matter, deserve.' Malakim of Laurence ('the most honourable fighters in existance' might be more inclined to treat both friend and foe in an honest and forthright manner, but it's not required. Not all Malakim think it's right to treat demons fairly. Take care, - emmanuel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:36:35 -0700 From: "emmanuel francois" Subject: IN> How do people play demons? Amo Nympham wrote >well, I've finally got a Shedite player, so looks like I'm off to start >creating some NPCs for it to possess...bleh i was wondering, when reading the rules - how do people play demons? i mean, i can see the GM doing it, but a PC? Having disturbed, callous, ruthless, or even borderline sociopathic characters, who are still human (or as appropriate for the game world), i can follow, but who would _enjoy_ playing an actual Fiend from the Pit? We're not talking 'bad boy rebel with long hair and a leather jacket' type of 'evil,' we're talking Sevant of Hell. A being who's entire purpose in life (sort of - demons are pretty selfish) is to degrade, corrupt, defile, and destroy all they touch. (And Shedim... *shudder*) To me, this seems like trying to play a child molester or something. In detail. Every step of the way. Casually explaining every move to the GM while other players listen. Real, true, full, perverse EVIL. i don't see how i could possibly enjoy that. As i'm new on the list (and typing 'demons' in the archive search would come up with way too many hits) would some of the other members of the list, who play demons (or GM demon players), mind sharing some of their feelings about why (and how) they play demons? Thnx - emmanuel francois ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:43:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> How do people play demons? On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, emmanuel francois wrote: > As i'm new on the list (and typing 'demons' in the archive search would > come up with way too many hits) would some of the other members of the > list, who play demons (or GM demon players), mind sharing some of their > feelings about why (and how) they play demons? Well, that's the kind of the whole point of playing demons... playing a purely evil character gets out that bad, evil element that we all have inside. Everyone has a dark (often very dark) side that they try to hide, or refuse to admit to themselves. Everyone has that inner killer, psychotic, or child molester buried within them... it's just overpowered by the rest of your self. Well, in most of us at least. The others you hear about on the news. :) We find it a lot of FUN to play demons, actually. Killing, raping, corrupting, degrading, and just spreading evil everywhere can be a great way to work through those negative emotions you build up at the end of a week of dealing with life. Anyways, they're not real people getting killed, raped, corrupted, and degraded - they're just NPCs, and the GM has a thousand more where those came from. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "When nothing's funny, it gets easy to laugh at the drop of a hat - or a bomb." -- Devo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:39:25 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> How do people play demons? emmanuel francois wrote: > Amo Nympham wrote > > >well, I've finally got a Shedite player, so looks like I'm off to start > >creating some NPCs for it to possess...bleh > > i was wondering, when reading the rules - how do people play demons? i > mean, i can see the GM doing it, but a PC? Having disturbed, callous, > ruthless, or even borderline sociopathic characters, who are still human > (or as appropriate for the game world), i can follow, but who would _enjoy_ > playing an actual Fiend from the Pit? > Well frankly, I floored my group with a short portrayal of a Shedite. I sat there chatting with an Elohite asking him "How's that dick workin'?" and wondering if the tux the host was wearing was a rental while burning a hole in the cuff with a cigarette. They loved it. But for something more prolonged, it's cathartic, especially if you see things in the world you don't like. Someone cut you off in traffic today? Play a Shedite and run that sucker down at the crosswalk and laugh while you do it. Or better still, possess -him- and make him run someone down....jailtime boys and girls, and there's more fun to be done on the inside. Overall, play the -villain-. Many villains are interesting in that their motivations are complex. Think, -why- does your demon do what he does? "Because my Prince said so." doesn't work, or you'd go Renegade or Redeem. What keeps him after humanity day after day? Does he - -enjoy- them, like an Impudite or a Lusty? Does he -hate- them, like a Calabite of Belial might? There's -depth- to these beings, and frankly, I find that I can get a lot of stuff out that you can't do in the real world (like smashing your neighbor's head in with a hammer or welding their door shut). - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 06:20:52 -0400 From: "Eddie" Subject: Re: IN> "Rev. Pee Kitty, How do people play demon? I could not disagree more strongly with your statements. The whole reason why society works is because we DON'T have all dark things buried inside us. Because if did in my opinion it would only be a matter of time before we were all arrested or should be arrested for acting on these dark desires and needs. Remember those who practice aberrant behavior feel there will be no repercussion's. (Criminals never believe they will be caught) There is a difference between understanding such a warped prospective and actually having it inside us. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Rev. Pee Kitty To: Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 1:43 AM Subject: Re: IN> How do people play demons? > > > On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, emmanuel francois wrote: > > As i'm new on the list (and typing 'demons' in the archive search would > > come up with way too many hits) would some of the other members of the > > list, who play demons (or GM demon players), mind sharing some of their > > feelings about why (and how) they play demons? > > Well, that's the kind of the whole point of playing demons... playing a > purely evil character gets out that bad, evil element that we all have > inside. Everyone has a dark (often very dark) side that they try to hide, > or refuse to admit to themselves. Everyone has that inner killer, > psychotic, or child molester buried within them... it's just overpowered > by the rest of your self. Well, in most of us at least. The others you > hear about on the news. :) > > We find it a lot of FUN to play demons, actually. Killing, raping, > corrupting, degrading, and just spreading evil everywhere can be a great > way to work through those negative emotions you build up at the end of a > week of dealing with life. Anyways, they're not real people getting > killed, raped, corrupted, and degraded - they're just NPCs, and the GM has > a thousand more where those came from. > > -- > Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian > Meow! > > "When nothing's funny, it gets easy to laugh at the drop of a hat - or a > bomb." -- Devo > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 05:55:21 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> "Rev. Pee Kitty, How do people play demon? Eddie wrote: > I could not disagree more strongly with your statements. The whole reason > why society works is because we DON'T have all dark things buried inside us. > Because if did in my opinion it would only be a matter of time before we > were all arrested or should be arrested for acting on these dark desires and > needs. Remember those who practice aberrant behavior feel there will be no > repercussion's. (Criminals never believe they will be caught) There is a > difference between understanding such a warped prospective and actually > having it inside us. I don't follow the logic. Why do not -acting- on dark impulses and not - -having- them have to be the same thing? (in your view). Everyone I know has tons of dark, nasty, downright murderous impulses every day. We havn't gone on any killing sprees yet. And many criminals -do- know they're going to get caught eventually. Price of the game, and all. Why is it 'only a matter of time' until someone with dark impulses acts on them? I don't think you understand human nature very well. Now, to get this back on topic, two things: First, there are all sorts of ways to do 'evil'. Impudites and Lilim, for instance, are notoriously shy on the whole 'mass destruction' thing. They are - -subtle- evils, luring you in and making you think that (to paraphrase the IPG) 'It's cool to sin.' Same with Balseraphs. A Balseraph can -destroy- entire institutions with some carefully planted 'facts' (lies). So you can take playing a demon however you want it. Hell, you can even get around the Shedite inability to perform multistage evils with the proper attunement, Asmodeus and Vapula's come to mind, here. Secondly, reading over the Infernal Reproduction stuff again, I wonder. As impossible as it may be, what would happen if a Malakite and a demon had an offspring and Hell kept it? (aside from a disbanded Malakite, of course) Also, do these crossbreeds (from 'normal' angels and a demon) automatically Fall if 'midwifed' by a Prince? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: 08 Sep 1999 09:16:03 -0400 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> How do people play demons? >>>>> "ef" == emmanuel francois writes: ef> Amo Nympham wrote >> well, I've finally got a Shedite player, so looks like I'm off to start >> creating some NPCs for it to possess...bleh ef> i was wondering, when reading the rules - how do people play ef> demons? i mean, i can see the GM doing it, but a PC? Having ef> disturbed, callous, ruthless, or even borderline sociopathic ef> characters, who are still human (or as appropriate for the game ef> world), i can follow, but who would _enjoy_ playing an actual ef> Fiend from the Pit? I GM'ed a one-shot for my friends recently with Diabolical PCs. Our take was mostly satirical. The scenario involved two more powerful demons competing for the Word of School Shootings, with the PCs being the 'local demons' in the town where the Word contest happened to be set. The characters: o A Shedite of Nightmares, whose long-term goal was to get the Word of Urban Legends. He spent most of the game setting up a Rohypnol (date-rape drug) scare in the town the game was set in, and only being peripherally involved in the actual plot. o An Impudite of Nightmares with a Role as a guidance counsellor at the high-school around which the scenario centered. Her usual 'job description' was to promote insecurity among the students, but she really got into finding out what was going on in the scenario (Call of Cthulhu reflexes). o A Balseraph of Gluttony with a Role as the manager of the local Pier One. Staved off Dissonance by making people buy lots of expensive junk imported from countries with no minimum wage. o A Balseraph of the Game, based on Steve Dallas from Bloom County. He actually accomplished his assignment, which was to prevent a Renegade Shedite of Death from trying to horn in on the Word contest. Mostly he was just sleazy. In addition to dodging the disruption the would-be Wordbounds (a televangelist Habbalah of the Media and a Shedite of Factions who alternated between NRA and ACLU) were creating in town, they also had to get their regular jobs done while avoiding the notice of the high-school CS teacher---a neurotic Mercurian of Lightning---and a techno-DJ Malakite of Creation. Much fun was had by all, and I think the session served the Word of Dark Humor fairly well. It wasn't very serious---it was like playing an episode of Buffy backwards. I had hoped for some Paranoia-style backstabbing (everyone screw the Gamester!), but everyone mostly stayed out of each others' way. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:07:23 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> "Rev. Pee Kitty, How do people play demon? In a message dated 9/8/99 5:19:05 AM Central Daylight Time, EDDIE42Z@prodigy.net writes: << I could not disagree more strongly with your statements. The whole reason why society works is because we DON'T have all dark things buried inside us. Because if did in my opinion it would only be a matter of time before we were all arrested or should be arrested for acting on these dark desires and needs. Remember those who practice aberrant behavior feel there will be no repercussion's. (Criminals never believe they will be caught) There is a difference between understanding such a warped prospective and actually having it inside us. >> Dude, you're in denial! :) You've never had a bad thought? You walk around every day filled with nothing but pure and holy thoughts and intentions? What they are saying is that we all have bad thoughts, and sometimes it's fun to play them out in a roleplaying scenario. Not that we are all repressed molesters and killers. If I were to FINALLY get into a game, and it was a demon game, I might consider playing a Lusty, just to get some of the perverted adolescent thoughts that plague my lonely nights (and they ARE perverted) out in the open. I don't think I'm a bad person. I wouldn't do those things in real life. I wouldn't even consider it. But the impulses are there. Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:21:26 -0400 From: "Chris Bergstresser" Subject: RE: IN>Malakim [long] > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of emmanuel francois > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 1:40 AM > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN>Malakim [long] > > A more recent moral debate: abortion. Is it right or wrong? > Abortion, to > put it plain, is murder: the willful termination of another human life. This is, to put it simply, wrong. First, there's a lot of debate over whether a fetus counts as a human to any greater extent than, say, a tumor. While, given enough time and the right conditions, it will probably reach that point (barring miscarriages, exposures to drugs, etc . . .) that doesn't carry any retroactive obligations. If you've read any Peter Singer (the philosopher and ethicist recently appointed Professor of Bioethics at Princeton) you'll know that he argues it can be ethical to kill a newborn (or any human being, for that matter) if they are afflicted with enough handicaps that the likelihood of them living a happy life is basically nil. He also argues that it's immoral to kill healthy animals. His definition of "personhood" is based on capacity for happiness. Secondly, murder *by definition* is the *unlawful* killing of a person. Thus, no matter how moral the act may or may not be, if it's legal, it's not murder. I makes these points not to start a debate (it's been done to death, no pun intended, in my college days) but just to remind people there are always alternative viewpoints. > Ultimate example (taken from The Angelic Player's Guide): Adolf Hitler. > 'By an infinite number of standards Hitler was evil - by all save the > single standard that matters to a Malakite. Hitler strictly > adhered to his > own grotesque sense of morality.' He was utterly selfless - virtuous - in > his devotion to his ideal. Alas, his ideal was totally sick. This is one of the passages I have serious problems with the In Nomine canon. It turns out the question "Did Hitler know he was evil?" is a fairly hot one among historians studying the Third Reich. There's a recent biography of Hitler (Explaining Hitler:The Search for the Origins of His Evil by Ron Rosenbaum) which makes the argument that the top leadership of the Third Reich *did* know they were evil. He points to a meeting where three of the leaders (Hitler, Himmler, and Goring, I think) were talking in front of a secretary taking internal notes -- not for release to the public, but records for the archives. In the meeting, the three of them lie extensively about the intentions and effects of the final solution. Rosenbaum argues *if they thought they were virtuous* they wouldn't have needed to lie for the archives, but instead by their actions they acknowledged the course of action they had undertaken was so far beyond the pale that no one, either then or in the future, would ever accept it as a just act. - -- Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:55:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> "Rev. Pee Kitty, How do people play demon? On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Eddie wrote: > I could not disagree more strongly with your statements. The whole reason > why society works is because we DON'T have all dark things buried inside us. > Because if did in my opinion it would only be a matter of time before we > were all arrested or should be arrested for acting on these dark desires and > needs. Someone beat me to saying it, but I'll echo it: You're in denial, man. Humans HAVE a dark side. A dark, evil side. Everyone does. Some of us have worse ones than others, but even the nicest person (except maybe a real living SAINT) has some pretty yucky stuff floating around in there. That's the whole point behind In Nomine... actually, behind the whole religious ('specially Christian) mythos and belief: You've got the good guys (Heaven), the bad guys (Hell), and the humans who are mixed bags of good and bad, trying to decide which way to head. Humans, and I mean you and me here, not just some theoretical NPCs, are capable of GREAT depths of evil and INCREDIBLE heights of goodness. I'm not talking about the criminals and saints of society here; YOU, Eddie, have the capacity to be a degenerate monster, and the capacity to be an ultra-humane bringer of joy to the world. Chances are you fall somewhere in between, like the rest of us. Don't be afraid of your dark side, because THAT'S when it pops out at the worst moment and takes control. If you refuse to look at it, you can't see what it's turning into. :) To keep this on topic (though I do actually think it is - the discussion of Good and Evil is about as INish as you can get), this dark side is what a Shedite exploits, and it's worst in people who spend their lives repressing it instead of getting it out on healthy, vicarious ways. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! When you're having a bad day, remember: It takes 42 muscles to frown, but only 4 to pull the trigger of a decent sniper rifle. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:01:04 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> How do people play demons? >i was wondering, when reading the rules - how do people play demons? i >mean, i can see the GM doing it, but a PC? Having disturbed, callous, >ruthless, or even borderline sociopathic characters, who are still human >(or as appropriate for the game world), i can follow, but who would _enjoy_ >playing an actual Fiend from the Pit? > >We're not talking 'bad boy rebel with long hair and a leather jacket' type >of 'evil,' we're talking Sevant of Hell. A being who's entire purpose in >life (sort of - demons are pretty selfish) is to degrade, corrupt, defile, >and destroy all they touch. (And Shedim... *shudder*) > >To me, this seems like trying to play a child molester or something. In >detail. Every step of the way. Casually explaining every move to the GM >while other players listen. Real, true, full, perverse EVIL. i don't see >how i could possibly enjoy that. > >As i'm new on the list (and typing 'demons' in the archive search would >come up with way too many hits) would some of the other members of the >list, who play demons (or GM demon players), mind sharing some of their >feelings about why (and how) they play demons? > >Thnx > > - emmanuel francois Also in In-nomine demons aren't manifestations of pure evil. Lucifer didn't rebel because one day he thought, "This being good crap is borning, let me go out and do horrible random things." Demons are just selfish, not pure evil, they consider themselves superior to humans and are pissed off that God made the Symphony humanocentric. There are those demons who miss the point and run around being pure evil, I'd wager they don't get very far in hell. Timothy, "Angel" of Rambling ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1323 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.