From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Sep 13 16:19:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09854 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:19:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA27137 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:14:44 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:14:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199909132114.QAA27137@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1328 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, September 13 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1328 In this digest: IN> Hitler's appropriate Superior Re: IN> malakim resonance IN> History and Honor Re: IN> Hitler's appropriate Superior IN> 'Radio Drama' IN> Good/Bad Deeds (was Re: Rules Questions.) Re: IN> History and Honor IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) Re: IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) Re: IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) Re: IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) Re: IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) IN> Questions galore . . . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:03:11 PDT From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Hitler's appropriate Superior Well, some people have suggested Saminga as the appropriate Superior for the Demon of Genocide (a Balseraph, in case you hadn't guessed). And I can see this as a point of view; in fact, when I first came up with this idea it seemed obvious. But then I started thinking ... It was the factionalizing, producing hatred and fear, pitting one group against another and everyone against everyone else, that resulted in all the loathsomeness of World War II. Ethnic and religious factions, nationalist factions, political factions. Friends informing against friends, children being trained to spy on their parents. Everyone afraid of everyone else. Individuals and countries afraid to trust each other. That's how it started, that's how it went all through the war, and you will notice that it didn't end when Hitler/Balseraph left a vessel for the authorities to find and flitted off as a bird or a mouse or something else too small for the angels around to notice. The war and the deaths and the humans (and possibly angels) succumbing to their Fates were delightful to Hell and to the Princes who benefited to them, but they were probably secondary as far as Malphas and his powerful servant were concerned, except insofar as they produced *more* factionalism. Incidentally, I'll bet the Demon of Genocide is perfectly happy working for Malphas rather than Saminga. Saminga, who is, as everyone knows, Dumber Than Dirt (tm), is known to kill off demons who are noticeably smarter than he is or who show too high a success rate. Janet Anderson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:07:03 +0100 From: "Neil" Subject: Re: IN> malakim resonance Apologies to all, I did not realise that my e-mail was anything special (MIME?) Anyway I think I have rectified the situation now....... Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 17:02:13 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> History and Honor >>>I imagine that Kronos thinks special individuals drive history, and Yves thinks that historical inevitability -- God's Plan -- does.<<< Actually, I think it's more likely that Yves believes in the power of individual destinies to change the world, whereas Kronos believes that Fate is a universal force that will inevitably drag everyone to their individual fates. But they both obviously believe that certain individuals can be important, or they wouldn't bother with them at all. Kronos probably sees them as mere stepping stones -- if you get the right person with the right fate, you can move things along more quickly, is all -- whereas Yves believes that individuals are potentially critical. What you are talking about is basically the "Great Man" theory of history (a nice recap of the two opposing viewpoints is found in GURPS Who's Who). Whether history shapes individuals, or individuals shape history, has been long-debated among historians, and there is probably no way to "prove" either theory correct. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 03:24:21 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Hitler's appropriate Superior In a message dated 9/12/99 4:04:49 PM Central Daylight Time, dorigen@hotmail.com writes: << Well, some people have suggested Saminga as the appropriate Superior for the Demon of Genocide >> Actually, Saminga will destroy anyone who tries to take that word. It says so in his write-up. Rev. B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:34:58 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: IN> 'Radio Drama' I highly reccomend everyone with a RealPlayer or equivalent head down to: http://www.scifi.com/set/originals/murder/ That is an online 'radio drama' by Neil Gaiman about a murder in Heaven and the first 'detective'. A lot of the characters have very clear IN equivalents (being angels and all, duh) and the characterizations might really help folks run angelic NPCs and even PCs in their games (especially the characterization of God). - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:45:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Good/Bad Deeds (was Re: Rules Questions.) At 2:21 PM -0500 9/11/99, Ben Glickler wrote: > I saw a few of these posted on a few webpages, but I'm craving for more. > What I am discussing is the Malakite resonance for finding noble and >innoble > deeds. It sure would be nice if we had a laundry-list of these, for each >level of > resonance. Liber Servitorum, pp. 126-127. O:> Lists a bunch of suggestions for destinies, fates, Good Deeds, Bad Deeds, and Needs. Lists are in a rough order of lowest CD to highest. > One of my Malakites, (Malakim.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:29:06 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> History and Honor as far as my games are concerned, if a player asks me why the Host didn't take out Hitler, it's a combination of two things. one, they were too busy trying to stop what was going on at the time without breaking into an all-out War (the time was not right, Gabriel did not blow her Trumpet) and killing Hitler would only have created a martyr for his cause, making it much, much worse than it was. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:51:18 -0500 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) Not everyone in History is going to be Celestial. Now, I can make a case for it being like that if you're going for a purely satirical game where everyone and their brother in history was one. On the other hand, if you're going for a closer to canonical game: Humanity played the biggest part in regards to the past. What people seem to be ignoring is the fact that Humanity as a whole is capable of greater evil than even one of Magog's Shedim (the converse is that they are capable of greather heights as well). My take on canon is that this is strongly stressed throughout the IN-Line. In the movie, 'the Prophecy' an Arcangel sought the evil knowledge a 'man' contained to bring it to use in the second War of Heaven. Tyrants and 'Monsters' of our past may have had some influence in regards to Celestial intervention. But - -all- of the great evil men of the world are perfectly capable of reaching those depths on their own. This being so, just because someone did something increadibly 'evil' (Hitler's Genocide), doesn't mean they are necessarely one of the 'Horde'. Oh, and just so you know, Stalin's regime furthered the word of Genocide moreso than Hitler's -- Too bad Stalin was an 'ally' at the time. History, after all, is written by, and is biased towards, those who survive it. I'll also admit that the APG was written at a time when there was no coherant direction that our current Line Editor is striving for. With luck, 2nd edition APG will correct those mistakes and oversights that weren't fully realized at the time. World War II being one of them. Clarification as to -why- might be helpful. Though, Yves may have strongly enforced the non-intervention point. Stop demons, but do not interfere with Hitler's course. He had chosen his Fate, with no hope of reaching his Destiny. Perhaps Yves saw that in interfering would so disrupt the Destiny of others who were touched by the effects, that orders were to do nothing in regards to Hitler. The same could be said of Kronos. Please, please remember this: In your campaign, if you want Persons of Historical Note to be Celestials, it is your choice. But do _not_ assume they were -- As I said, Humanity is perfectly capable of doing evil all by itself. Humanity fears what it does not understand, and will go to great lengths to insure that what they fear is removed. That is why we lost so much when the Library at Alexandria was burned. People feared the knowledge contained there. Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:04:41 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) At 9:51 AM -0500 9/13/99, Shadowstar wrote: >Though, Yves may have strongly enforced the non-intervention point. >Stop demons, but do not interfere with Hitler's course. He had >chosen his Fate, with no hope of reaching his Destiny. Perhaps Yves >saw that in interfering would so disrupt the Destiny of others who >were touched by the effects, that orders were to do nothing in >regards to Hitler. The same could be said of Kronos. How many people achieved their Destiny in World War II? How many heroes were born of the need to surmount their selfishness and their self-interest for the good of their comrades and the wars? War is not a glorious thing, but heroes can be made in them. Destinies can be achieved. Not just the Destiny of soldiers, either, but of people throughout every society the War touched. Kronos would of course point to the Fates that were served... and how close Humanity came to succumbing to Dark Fate itself... and take some small comfort in Stalin's free reign afterward.... >Please, please remember this: In your campaign, if you want Persons >of Historical Note to be Celestials, it is your choice. But do >_not_ assume they were -- As I said, Humanity is perfectly capable >of doing evil all by itself. I couldn't agree more. IMC, the great leaders, thinkers and tyrants of history were all human. In fact, until recently even Demons didn't seek too much Limelight. Nybbas changed that, and there are forces among his fellows who think that was a tragic mistake.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:07:17 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) I have to agree with the general idea that most famous historical figures are human - and I personally see Hitler as just a figurehead anyway (although my periods of history are ancient and medieval - not modern at all). Reading this stuff I was reminded about the connection between Israel and Michael (is that canon or elsewhere or both? I forget) and given that the Holocaust led both to the foundation of the modern state of Israel - and a general feeling of unease about casual anti-Semetism. However saying most does not mean all - (obvously) - so if anyone has ideas for which famous figures were Celestial and why they were chosen - I would be interested to receive private mails on the subject. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:13:40 -0500 From: Lance Hunter Subject: Re: IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) Well, I'd go so far as to say that there were celestial attacks against historical figures(particularly in WW2), but they all failed. Just 'cause you're stronger than a human and just 'cause you've got some powers they don't, it doesn't mean you can just 'take out' a leader. I think it'd be interesting to run a 'demons have to take out hitler/churchill/stalin/etc' campaign, which would end up being a suicide mission due to the power surrounding these 'mere mortals'. But that's just me... At 09:51 AM 9/13/99 -0500, you wrote: > Not everyone in History is going to be Celestial. Now, I can make a >case for it being like that if you're going for a purely satirical game >where everyone and their brother in history was one. On the other hand, if >you're going for a closer to canonical game: Humanity played the biggest >part in regards to the past. > > >- Tafka J. >= shadowstar@centuryinter.net ># Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur >* http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine > > > - -- Lance Hunter "I knew in my heart by pure logic that any man who calls himself a religious leader and owns more than one suit is a hustler as long as there is someone in the world who has no suit at all." -Lenny Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:21:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) Warsinger wrote: > Reading this stuff I was reminded about the connection between > Israel and Michael (is that canon or elsewhere or both? I forget) It's going to be in the GM's Guide, I think, and it is certainly "elsewhere" -- it's in the Bible, in the book of Daniel. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:13:42 -0400 From: "Chris Bergstresser" Subject: IN> Questions galore . . . More and more and more and more . . . 1) The Song of Shields -- I'm guessing it gives complete protection from any sort of physical trauma, so you could cast it on yourself and jump of a building, and just kinda bounce at the bottom, yes? It also protects against any *other* physical damage (like heat; the description in Liber Canticorum suggests stopping a nuclear blast with it -- but wouldn't the light from the blast render you blind, even if the gamma rays didn't harm you?) 2) What's the Celestial density for the Canon? What does that work out to for New York City (7.3 million in the city, 16.4 in the metro area) 3) I've been playing around with the numbers for disturbing the symphony, and even using conservative numbers New York is a *very* *very* noisy place. If I'm correct, kill a human in midtown and at least 30 celestials are going to hear it. Not to mention be a 5 minute cab ride away. Anyone else dealt with these kind of issues? 4) How is the Medicine skill supposed to work? The description of it in the book is near useless. How do you use the table? 5) Is throwing considered an attack skill? 6) Suppose a celestial lights a match and sets a building on fire. I'm assuming the resulting disturbance is based on the damage ultimately caused by the entire building going up, yes? 7) For #6, can I have an angel with a role of "Convicted Arsonist", and roll to prevent any disturbance from occurring? Much thanks . . . - -- Chris ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1328 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.