From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Sep 14 11:17:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22985 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:17:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA12151 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:11:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:11:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199909141611.LAA12151@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1329 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, September 14 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1329 In this digest: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Re: IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Re: IN> Questions galore . . . IN> Singular of Lilim IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1328 Re: IN> Singular of Lilim Re: IN> Singular of Lilim Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Re: IN> How do people play demons? Re: IN> Questions galore . . . RE: IN> Questions galore . . . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:47:33 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . - - Dennis H, Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, "ACF" - -----Original Message----- From: Chris Bergstresser To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 4:26 PM Subject: IN> Questions galore . . . >More and more and more and more . . . > > 1) The Song of Shields -- I'm guessing it gives complete protection from >any sort of physical trauma, so you could cast it on yourself and jump of a >building, and just kinda bounce at the bottom, yes? It also protects >against any *other* physical damage (like heat; the description in Liber >Canticorum suggests stopping a nuclear blast with it -- but wouldn't the >light from the blast render you blind, even if the gamma rays didn't harm >you?) i play it as blocking Kinetic Energy. so the blast from a nuclear explosion would be stopped, but the radiation would not be. > 2) What's the Celestial density for the Canon? What does that work out >to for New York City (7.3 million in the city, 16.4 in the metro area) whatever fits your game the best, i guess. IIRC, this is addressed in the upcoming GameMaster's Guide (which just left playtest. if you missed it, shame on you for not having a Pyramid subscription) > 3) I've been playing around with the numbers for disturbing the symphony, >and even using conservative numbers New York is a *very* *very* noisy place. >If I'm correct, kill a human in midtown and at least 30 celestials are going >to hear it. Not to mention be a 5 minute cab ride away. Anyone else dealt >with these kind of issues? i encourage my players to be _very_ careful about disturbance when they want to keep a low profile. i also fudge disturbance mechanics to fit the storyline: if i want you to hear it, you will, if not, tough cookies. also, don't forget things like the Celestial Song of Shields..gives some escape time if you _must_ kill that human. > 4) How is the Medicine skill supposed to work? The description of it in >the book is near useless. How do you use the table? i use it as a first-aid type thing at low levels going up into fancy medical training. basically, IMG, with proper materials and the Medicine skill you can treat injuries or diagnose diseases, etc. > 5) Is throwing considered an attack skill? if used to attack, yes. but what else would you want to use Throwing for? > 6) Suppose a celestial lights a match and sets a building on fire. I'm >assuming the resulting disturbance is based on the damage ultimately caused >by the entire building going up, yes? yes. very noisy. don't do it. > 7) For #6, can I have an angel with a role of "Convicted Arsonist", and >roll to prevent any disturbance from occurring? > I wouldn't let it happen IMG. also, IIRC, that would have to be an _incredibly_ high level role and have some lucky dice rolls for that to work. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:18:34 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . From: Amo Nympham > > > 5) Is throwing considered an attack skill? > > > if used to attack, yes. but what else would you want to use Throwing for? Fulfilling your Role as a quarterback or pitcher? *g* > > 7) For #6, can I have an angel with a role of "Convicted Arsonist", and > >roll to prevent any disturbance from occurring? > > I wouldn't let it happen IMG. also, IIRC, that would have to be an > _incredibly_ high level role and have some lucky dice rolls for that to > work. IMG, no angel would ever be given the role of arsonist, convicted or not. Calabim of Fire, OTOH... *eg* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:26:31 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . >> > 7) For #6, can I have an angel with a role of "Convicted Arsonist", and >> >roll to prevent any disturbance from occurring? >> I wouldn't let it happen IMG. also, IIRC, that would have to be an >> _incredibly_ high level role and have some lucky dice rolls for that to >> work. >IMG, no angel would ever be given the role of arsonist, convicted or not. >Calabim of Fire, OTOH... *eg* Also, don't forget that such Roles come with little adornments, such as Records In Every Police Station (And Many Fire Stations), Wanted Nationwide, Details On File In Far Too Many Places... Which doesn't make life any the easier. - --- Genevieve Cogman maya@tcp.co.uk `Ce n'est qu'en travaillant que les ides viennent' (Sade) ("It is only through working that ideas come") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:02:25 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . > 1) The Song of Shields -- I'm guessing it gives complete protection from > any sort of physical trauma, so you could cast it on yourself and jump of a > building, and just kinda bounce at the bottom, yes? It also protects > against any *other* physical damage (like heat; the description in Liber > Canticorum suggests stopping a nuclear blast with it -- but wouldn't the > light from the blast render you blind, even if the gamma rays didn't harm > you?) The way I play it, the (Corporeal) Song of Shields protects against all (Corporeal) harm - whether you've fallen off the top of the Empire State Building or been at ground zero in a nuclear blast, you won't be harmed. Of course, this is only so long as the Shield lasts (CD+Corp rounds) and while an atomic explosion is practically instantaneous, the resulting fireball and radioactivity lasts much longer! Note that unlike Malakim of David attunement, the song does not make one immovable - if a nuclear bomb goes off nearby, the blast will still knock one about (a lot!). I'm undecided as to whether one'd smash the pavement at the base of the Empire State Building or not if one fell off the top while protected by Corp Shields, though with my players I'd lean towards yes (the line about Janus's servitors comes to mind - "and mayhem ensues"). Since this question's come up before, I'll mention some other GMs on the list play it as only protecting from material harm (ie, it'll stop a brick, but not a laser or radiation*). I guess it depends on just how miraculous you wish Songs to be. *Note that some types of radiation would qualify as matter, albeit very energetic matter. > 2) What's the Celestial density for the Canon? What does that work out > to for New York City (7.3 million in the city, 16.4 in the metro area) Wow. That's almot four million more people than there are in my entire country (Australia). So if Celestial density is roughly constant per capita, there's more angels (and demons) in NY than on the Australian continent. :) > 6) Suppose a celestial lights a match and sets a building on fire. I'm > assuming the resulting disturbance is based on the damage ultimately caused > by the entire building going up, yes? Yes. *Noisy*. :) PS. a query pops to mind - how Loud would the Symphonic Disturbance of a celestial setting off a nuclear bomb be? :) Regards, Shane. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:53:50 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . > 1) The Song of Shields -- I'm guessing it gives complete protection from >any sort of physical trauma, so you could cast it on yourself and jump of a >building, and just kinda bounce at the bottom, yes? It also protects >against any *other* physical damage (like heat; the description in Liber >Canticorum suggests stopping a nuclear blast with it -- but wouldn't the >light from the blast render you blind, even if the gamma rays didn't harm >you?) I'd say no; it stops all damage, and a light that blinds you is damage. This may not make perfect sense to a physicist, but so what? It's a miracle, after all. > 2) What's the Celestial density for the Canon? AFAIK none is given. You can work out an estimate from _Night Music_, though. IIRC it comes out to something like one celestial per 30,000 people, since Austin, with a metropolitan population of around a million, has about 35 Celestials -- roughly equal angels and demons, with a remnant or two thrown in. Of course this assumes that (1) Austin is more or less typical, and (2) NM has mentioned most or all of the Celestial community in that city. There's no reason to think these assumptions are true. But personally I find this figure plausible, though I might run it a little lower IMC. >What does that work out >to for New York City (7.3 million in the city, 16.4 in the metro area) About 250 celestials of all sorts in the city, 600 or so in the metro area. > 3) I've been playing around with the numbers for disturbing the symphony, >and even using conservative numbers New York is a *very* *very* noisy place. >If I'm correct, kill a human in midtown and at least 30 celestials are going >to hear it. Not to mention be a 5 minute cab ride away. Anyone else dealt >with these kind of issues? Sure. Often, actually. _No Dinero_ makes an excellent introductory adventure for human characters. When Loki's skinheads kick their angelic friend to death in an alleyway behind the club (after we've established what a nice guy he is, and he's had a chance to help them out of a jam or two), it goes BONG all over the Symphony downtown... the poor Merc throws several Songs trying to escape, and only succeeds in piling a couple of points of Dissonance on top of his Trauma (ouch!) as Loki makes sure that he can't get away. So the PCs _understand_ why everyone is so upset... Playing in an urban environment with a lot of celestials around = more concerns with disturbing the Symph = human characters at a slightly lessened disadvantage vis a vis celestials. FWIW. > 6) Suppose a celestial lights a match and sets a building on fire. I'm >assuming the resulting disturbance is based on the damage ultimately caused >by the entire building going up, yes? Betcha. Mind, you can get into trouble if you don't draw a line between deliberate, reckless, and negligent damage. I ding my PCs for the first two, but place a limit on the last one...if it's really, truly an accident, it can only cause so much noise, even if half the city ends up burning down. The Symphony recognizes intent IMC. Also, this sort of thing is why it's a good idea to try describing the different sorts of disturbance to the Symph. After all, the fire is going to be creating a continuous, ongoing disturbance, whereas just blowing up the building creates a single loud clang. > 7) For #6, can I have an angel with a role of "Convicted Arsonist", and >roll to prevent any disturbance from occurring? I'd say theoretically yes, but that would have to be one strange angel. Also, that seems like a _really_ odd Role for any Celestial... even a demon, after all, wouldn't want to have that sort of negative attention. Although I suppose the angel could have been framed. Which would raise the question of whether the Symphony would recognize that fact... DOug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:41:27 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . At 17:13 -0400 9/13/99, Chris Bergstresser wrote: > 1) The Song of Shields -- I'm guessing it gives complete protection from >any sort of physical trauma, so you could cast it on yourself and jump of a >building, and just kinda bounce at the bottom, yes? That's a bit extreme, since rapid deceleration is involved (the radius isn't all that large), but it may be plausible -- stuntmen fall from fairly great heights onto airbags that aren't terribly thick.... > It also protects >against any *other* physical damage (like heat; the description in Liber >Canticorum suggests stopping a nuclear blast with it -- but wouldn't the >light from the blast render you blind, even if the gamma rays didn't harm >you?) I'm believe the intent is that it stops corporeal *damage* regardless of nature (as long it's strictly corporeal in nature). So it would stop gamma rays if they exceeded the background level significantly (or maybe entirely), as well as the blast wave. And even the light would be stopped, if it were of a damaging intensity. On the other side of the shield, it would be about like a flashbulb going off.... In GURPS In Nomine, we used the spell Force Dome as the basis, as I recall, though similar questions have been asked about whether it could stop a high-tech nuclear blast. It can certainly stop things like catapult stones and rockfalls. Remember that Songs are really miraculous in nature, and to some extent the *intent* of the Song is more important than its described physical manifestation. (No way a whirlwind would normally stop an energy blast, for example...) > 2) What's the Celestial density for the Canon? What does that work out >to for New York City (7.3 million in the city, 16.4 in the metro area) Officially undefined, though the forthcoming GMG has some guidelines for GMs. I've always interpreted the canon city material as implying one celestial per 10,000 to 100,000 humans, though they're not necessarily distributed according to the human population density. Tether frequency is a bit better defined in the L. Castellorum, though still not nailed down. > 3) I've been playing around with the numbers for disturbing the symphony, >and even using conservative numbers New York is a *very* *very* noisy place. >If I'm correct, kill a human in midtown and at least 30 celestials are going >to hear it. Not to mention be a 5 minute cab ride away. Anyone else dealt >with these kind of issues? Depends a lot on population density of celestials. In general, I think canon assumes that celestials are slightly underrepresented in very large cities, and slightly overrepresented in relatively unpopulated areas -- i.e., the distribution is neither by area nor population, but something of both. So the average ratio of celestials to humans may be a bit misleading when making this kind of calculation. But yes, a human dying can be heard over quite some distance, as can a Superior appearance, or even just a medium-sized fight involving several Songs and a bit of collateral damage. This is generally a Good Thing from the GM's point of view, since it should keep PCs from blazing away at everything that moves.... GURPS In Nomine, BTW, uses a rather different disturbance mechanic, which follows a exponential, rather than square-law curve, but the common cases are more or less comparable in game effect -- very small disturbances can't be noticed more than a few yards away, but really big ones can span the planet. > 4) How is the Medicine skill supposed to work? The description of it in >the book is near useless. How do you use the table? The "doctor" gets one roll per injury (or set of related injuries), is how I interpret it. The time is the period over which the "doctor" performs his work, which isn't necessarily full-time work, but at least serious attention and availability. At the end of the period, the indicated number of hits can be healed. Progressive skill levels indicate progressively more effective treatment techniques, but these also are more complex and take longer, until you get to skill 5-6, where you can get somewhat lesser results, but much faster. (I.e., field surgery instead of first aid.) I would allow a doctor to use a lower level of skill, to get a lesser amount of healing, but faster. But that's it -- once you've chosen a treatment, you can't do any better than natural healing for the remaining hits, short of using the Song of Healing. Alternatively, you could allow the doctor to heal ST hits in one minute of treatment, then another ST over an additional day, and another ST over the next 6 days (in addition to normal healing rolls), if he had skill/4. Following this model, a skill/5-6 doctor could cure 2*ST hits in a minute, but it would still take another week for a third ST to be cured (apart from "natural" healing rolls). Generally, this skill is going to be more important to humans than to celestials, since humans heal slowly, and celestials often have access to the Song of Healing (or they should, if the players have half a clue...). > 5) Is throwing considered an attack skill? If you're throwing a weapon of some sort, yes. Throwing a pillow or a paper airplane, no.... A rock falls into a grey area, since there are no real rules in IN for improvised weapons, except Malakim of Creation. If you want to get into this level of combat realism, you're better off using the GURPS combat system, not In Nomine's. (A shameless plug for GURPS In Nomine....) > 6) Suppose a celestial lights a match and sets a building on fire. I'm >assuming the resulting disturbance is based on the damage ultimately caused >by the entire building going up, yes? Yep. Don't do it yourself -- get a human (including a Soldier) to do it for you. If they do it of their own free will, there's no disturbance. And you *really* don't want to be the one to start a forest fire.... I think this one may be covered in the FAQ. > 7) For #6, can I have an angel with a role of "Convicted Arsonist", and >roll to prevent any disturbance from occurring? In theory, yes. In practice, it's probably not a really good Role, since it draws a lot of *heavy* human attention (as Maya pointed out in her message). And even then, unless you have a lot of Corporeal Forces and a *really* high Role level, you're risking getting caught by the Other Side pretty easily -- arson causes a *lot* of corporeal damage, and it all points at *you*, for a *long* time, if you fail your Role roll. Also, to stay within the Role, you probably have to do the deed using non-supernatural means. Which means leaving evidence for the human investigators to find. Also pointing at you.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 02:18:11 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Persons of Historical Note (Was: Malakim / Hitler) Lance Hunter wrote: > Well, I'd go so far as to say that there were celestial attacks against > historical figures(particularly in WW2), but they all failed. Just 'cause > you're stronger than a human and just 'cause you've got some powers they > don't, it doesn't mean you can just 'take out' a leader. I think it'd be > interesting to run a 'demons have to take out hitler/churchill/stalin/etc' > campaign, which would end up being a suicide mission due to the power > surrounding these 'mere mortals'. But that's just me... Well, unless you're a Shedite or something. Then it's awfully easy to hop past (human) resistance, doing an 'end run' around them, snaring someone close to the leader, and taking him out. Or failing that, kill the body while you're in residence and hope the Prince who assigned the task will remove the Dissonance for you. Shedim are probably the best assassins the Diabolicals have, being nigh-untracable after all. Then again, there's always the Song of Possession or a Calabite willing to travel Celestially or a clever Lilim with the right Geasa (BTW, what is the singular of 'Lilim'? Wouldit be a 'lilith', 'lilin'?). Frankly, unless The Other Side is protecting them, if Hell wants a human dead, that human should probably make out his will. I'd say this is what protects a lot of important people...Angelic retribution for 'taking it too far'. The Hitler/Churchill thing someone mentioned is probably the way this stuff tends to go. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 02:23:48 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Amo Nympham wrote: > > 5) Is throwing considered an attack skill? > > if used to attack, yes. but what else would you want to use Throwing for? > I just -have- to respond to this one. Breaking a window, hitting a switch from across the room, getting an item to someone far away, getting an item (like car keys) lost in a hurry, throwing something up to a roof so you can get it later. Just because a skill -can- be used for combat doesn't mean that's all it's good for. > - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 02:26:53 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Shane wrote: > > > 6) Suppose a celestial lights a match and sets a building on fire. I'm > > assuming the resulting disturbance is based on the damage ultimately caused > > by the entire building going up, yes? > > Yes. *Noisy*. :) > > PS. a query pops to mind - how Loud would the Symphonic Disturbance of a > celestial setting off a nuclear bomb be? :) Prolly everyone on Earth would hear that one. But as regards the fire, how - -long- until the Disturbance is heard? Just setting a wastepaper basket on fire is small. Can you do that and then boogy on out before it -gets- loud? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 02:33:26 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . Walter Milliken wrote: > > > Remember that Songs are really miraculous in nature, and to some extent > the *intent* of the Song is more important than its described physical > manifestation. (No way a whirlwind would normally stop an energy blast, > for example...) > Heh, reminds me of the last IN game I played not long ago. My Malakite of Judgement was facing down a Word-Bound Calabite. I had the Ethereal Shields up, he had Corporeal. I had a ranged corporeal weapon, he didn't. I couldn't physically attack him (only combat Song I had was Celestial Might), he couldn't use his Resonance on me. So we had to wait there, like Qui-Gon Jin and Darth Maul until both songs dropped, within a round of each other. -Great- tension building scene there, kudos to the GM. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:30:00 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Singular of Lilim Steel Angel wrote: > (BTW, what is the singular of 'Lilim'? Wouldit be a 'lilith', > 'lilin'?). This is a little hobby-horse of mine, which I will now ride again on the list: IN uses "Lilim" as both singular and plural, which is inconsistent. It's one Calabite, two Calabim; one Malakite, two Malakim; so it ought to be one Lilite, two Lilim. The "-ite" ending is Greek, though, not Hebrew, like the "-im" ending. I've tried to find out what the original Hebrew singular of "Lilim" is, but without success. From what little I know of Hebrew, odds are that the word has roughly the form L-vowel-L-vowel. My father knows Biblical Hebrew, but Lilith and the Lilim aren't in the Bible proper, so his dictionaries were no help. We tentatively constructed the singular "leyli," which means something like "nocturnal" (and is really an adjective, which can't simply be cast in the role of a noun, the way we cavalierly do in English). This would suggest that "Lilith" means "She of the Night." But, given establised IN usgae, the simplest and most consistent singular would be "Lilite." If anyone on the list has access to, say, a dictionary of Talmudic Hebrew, and can find a genuine Hebrew singular of Lilim, I'd *love* to hear it. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:41:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1328 "..............." The funny thing about the everpresent Hitler flamewar with the average five month cycle of reappearance is that most of the facts surrounding what happened in Germany and the German people are appropriately clouded and forgotten in the superficial attempt to explain away why "Angels didn't kill Hitler". Most people forget that the German people freely elected Hitler to office over the left wing Trotskyists in 1936, who were poised to bring in Lenin's particular brand of Communism, formulated during the rise of the Bolsheviks, to the severely depressed German people -- and would that have been better? Most people forget that the German people, at the time of the assention of the Partei, couldn't buy bread with a wheelbarrow of money. Most people forget that the Protestant Germans were deeply afraid of the Jews -- deeply, desperately afraid. Who really was the demon: Hitler? Goebbels? Goering? General Rommel, who tried to assasinate Hitler and failed? The officers at Stalingrad who held off the German press into Russia? There's more here going on than just a single man. In the aftermath of post-Imperial Europe, could there have been any other outcome? It's unlikely: the events were set in motion long before the Partei and they played out their Passion Play until the bitter end, an end that is still yet to come. If not Hitler, it would have been another wearing another name and the same hat. The more interesting In Nomine questions are to ask: did Heaven support the enforced economic stability of Imperialistic Eastern Europe, or did it support the assasination of the Archduke in Sarajevo and the death of the Czar at the hands of Lenin's men in an effort to further the Industrial Revolution? Were the Socialist movements, which brought economic and social upheaval and were carried out by the nameless people who were once serfs, peasants, and workers, the product of Man or of Deux Ex Machina? And I have to wonder: Was Hitler and his machinery of war directly caused by Heaven; a shining example of Heaven's angst? Did Heaven discover, much to their chagrin that, in the grand span of history, when the ideals and politics of Heaven are placed into the hands of Man, Man will ultimately believe that "four legs good, two legs better"? And by time they discovered their grave mistake, was it not far too late? (Shirer's book, "THE RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH" is worth reading if one is interested in the subject of Naziism.) Em Dresner -- Musician, Freak, Layabout Software Design Engineer Media Station, Inc. Current Quote: Aron shakes Daimon. "You don't ask Eli *questions*, man. You just nudge him occasionally towards the world of SENSE." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:03:20 -0500 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: IN> Singular of Lilim >Steel Angel wrote: > >> (BTW, what is the singular of 'Lilim'? Wouldit be a 'lilith', >> 'lilin'?). > >This is a little hobby-horse of mine, which I will now ride again >on the list: IN uses "Lilim" as both singular and plural, which >is inconsistent. It's one Calabite, two Calabim; one Malakite, >two Malakim; so it ought to be one Lilite, two Lilim. Or, Lilith is exercising her Freedom to ignore rules of grammar. Did someone get a point of Essence for suggesting it to her? J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:03:20 -0500 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: IN> Singular of Lilim >Steel Angel wrote: > >> (BTW, what is the singular of 'Lilim'? Wouldit be a 'lilith', >> 'lilin'?). > >This is a little hobby-horse of mine, which I will now ride again >on the list: IN uses "Lilim" as both singular and plural, which >is inconsistent. It's one Calabite, two Calabim; one Malakite, >two Malakim; so it ought to be one Lilite, two Lilim. Or, Lilith is exercising her Freedom to ignore rules of grammar. Did someone get a point of Essence for suggesting it to her? J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:11:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . At 10:41 PM -0400 9/13/99, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 17:13 -0400 9/13/99, Chris Bergstresser wrote: >> 1) The Song of Shields [....] >> It also protects >>against any *other* physical damage (like heat; the description in Liber >>Canticorum suggests stopping a nuclear blast with it -- but wouldn't the >>light from the blast render you blind, even if the gamma rays didn't harm >>you?) > >I'm believe the intent is that it stops corporeal *damage* regardless of >nature (as long it's strictly corporeal in nature). So it would stop >gamma rays if they exceeded the background level significantly (or maybe >entirely), as well as the blast wave. As others may have noted, there is a vignette in the Corporeal Player's Guide which does exactly that, IIRC. (Also note that Corporeal Shields stops the damage BOTH WAYS.) [Role as Arsonist] >Also, to stay within the Role, you probably have to do the deed using >non-supernatural means. Definitely -- if you're trying to get the cover of a Role, you're trying to fake the Symphony into thinking you're a human, essentially. If you go around using Songs and whatnot, the Symphony (in the form ofthe GM) will squint at you, say, "Yer a celestial, me bucko," and all that disturbance shows up. For you. >Which means leaving evidence for the human >investigators to find. Also pointing at you.... And unless the character has some experience with human investigative techniques for arson, he may not know what humans look for, where fingerprints will linger after a fire, and any number of other clues. (Yes, yes, I am an inveterate collector of Howdunit books, including "Scene of the Crime." It's impressive, what modern tech can do. (You can even fingerprint an entire airplane at once, IIRC, with some techniques. A small one.) (And, FWIW, I wouldn't distinguish between deliberate and accidental damage one little bit. Start a fire accidentally, and you'll reap the rewards of your carelessness.) At 2:26 AM -0700 9/15/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Shane wrote: > >> PS. a query pops to mind - how Loud would the Symphonic Disturbance of a >> celestial setting off a nuclear bomb be? :) Very. > Prolly everyone on Earth would hear that one. But as regards the fire, how >-long- until the Disturbance is heard? Just setting a wastepaper basket on fire >is small. Can you do that and then boogy on out before it -gets- loud? It depends on if your GM is playing with "sticky disturbance" or not -- there is an option to have disturbance lead to the scene or to the instigator, or both in sequence. If you want disturbance to be less of an issue for those who run away fast, make sure that it only leads to the scene. If you want to make sure that those noisy PCs can't escape the consequences of their actions, make the disturbance sticky. If you're not using sticky disturbance, then you can start the fire, and it will start out with small disturbance, and you can boogy. If you are using sticky disturbance, then you can start the fire and boogy, and find yourself emitting a little disturbance, then more, then more, then great gory gobs of it, and then one final crashing crescendo as the building caves in on itself. I would treat such disturbance, BTW, as "Tether-style" -- Tethers with the Feature of "Noisy" emit a constant disturbance, to which any other disturbance is added, but which does not add to itself. Since doubling and adding and otherwise treating the disturbance of a house on fire akin to the killing of one human after another... just gets appallingly noisy, I'd treat it as a "background disturbance" which is getting louder as more damage is done, but not additively so. E.g., "Okay, made your roll. You hear a disturbance. Big. Thataway." "You're still hearing the disturbance. The echos aren't fading. It's getting bigger." Any other disturbance, such as a human's death or a bunch of Songs (if you have Belial demons and Gabriel angels fighting in the inferno, say), will pile on top of the background of the burning building. Or so I'd play it. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:01:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "Derek K." Subject: Re: IN> How do people play demons? The evil demons of the internet forced Dennis Groome V to say: - -= - -=> - -=>Amo Nympham wrote - -=> - -=>>well, I've finally got a Shedite player, so looks like I'm off to start - -=>>creating some NPCs for it to possess...bleh - -=> - -=>i was wondering, when reading the rules - how do people play demons? - -= - -=in my troupe, very well. it's a great place to unleash all your repressed - -=depravity without harming anyone. Aye. It's roleplaying. IN is definately a mature audience game. And, being an adult type (at least if your driver's license says so) means that you can deal with dark gritty stuff, usually. Don't try it in certain company, but . . . . As a caveat: I have yet to actually play a demon, but I'm fairly experienced with White Wolf's World of Darkness, which is also dark and gritty. Playing the dark side does a number of things - it lets you see what you're really able to do when you just let yourself go - can you even bring yourself to play a demon who rapes and murders young children? Does it bring up questions in your own mind? Can you find yourself rapidly feeling for your evil one? Or do you just gleefully rampage evilly, all the while telling yourself 'it's not really me?' Do you feel horror at the acts your demon commits, or a sort of release? Either one can be fun. I've got a demon in works currently, to be played as soon as we can get the right books, who I'm considering having do the following: He's a bit of a twisted fellow. A Habbalite Renegade, formerly serving Beleth. He's got a plan. He wants to perform a symphony by punishing a group of sinners to death, and listen to the ensuing 'music.' Twisted? Sure. But he's got a good reason, which I can vaguely understand. And the fallout from that would be very interesting. Of course, he's got a friend (waves to Nimrod) who just likes to possess people and muck with them. The freak. - -= - -=i - -=>mean, i can see the GM doing it, but a PC? Having disturbed, callous, - -=>ruthless, or even borderline sociopathic characters, who are still human - -=>(or as appropriate for the game world), i can follow, but who would _enjoy_ - -=>playing an actual Fiend from the Pit? - -= - -= - -=it's all part of being able to do whatever you want and not be really - -=responsible for your actions. - -= It's all, at the core, a game for exploring things you'd never be involved in anyway. - -=> - -=>We're not talking 'bad boy rebel with long hair and a leather jacket' type - -=>of 'evil,' we're talking Sevant of Hell. A being who's entire purpose in - -=>life (sort of - demons are pretty selfish) is to degrade, corrupt, defile, - -=>and destroy all they touch. (And Shedim... *shudder*) - -= - -= - -=well, look at people in real life. we all have a little of the Pit in us. - -=i know girls (hell, i've dated girls) that can't help but destroy a - -=relationship. as humans we use and abuse each otehr every day. it's not - -=really that far of a stretch to play a demon. you just make it the foremost - -=thing on your mind. now playing a selfless angel in today's world... - -= I like that - which is truly stranger in our world? A selfless being devoted only to the improvement of everyone around him/her, who asks only to be allowed to do the duty given by a higher being? Or a nice twisted demon who is our to serve only number one, and maybe have a little fun in the process? - -=> - -=>To me, this seems like trying to play a child molester or something. In - -=>detail. Every step of the way. Casually explaining every move to the GM - -=>while other players listen. Real, true, full, perverse EVIL. i don't see - -=>how i could possibly enjoy that. - -= - -= - -=i had a shedite turn people into child molestors, pedophiles, rapists, - -=serial killers...all manner of evils. imagine as a kid trying to have a - -="gross out contest." now do it as an adult. - -= - -=one last bit, it helps that in my games, the brightness and contrast are all - -=the way down. - -= I've never really thought IN would be any other way . . . . - -= - -=- Dennis H. Groome V - -=Assistant IS Manager - -=Petroleum Communications, Inc. - -= Derek K. Nehelamite, Habbalite of Nightmares, former servant of Beleth. - -=-=- If at first you don't succeed, maybe you should just give up. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:53:05 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Questions galore . . . At 22:02 -0400 9/13/99, Shane wrote: >PS. a query pops to mind - how Loud would the Symphonic Disturbance of a >celestial setting off a nuclear bomb be? :) It'd probably be heard out at Pluto.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:08:05 -0400 From: "Chris Bergstresser" Subject: RE: IN> Questions galore . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Muir > > > 7) For #6, can I have an angel with a role of "Convicted > Arsonist", and > >roll to prevent any disturbance from occurring? > > I'd say theoretically yes, but that would have to be one strange angel. > Also, that seems like a _really_ odd Role for any Celestial... even a > demon, after all, wouldn't want to have that sort of negative attention. That's OK -- this *is* one strange angel I'm thinking of. Basically, the players in my campaign found a safehouse of Marc's that had been located, a week before, by a very nasty Djinn. Apparently (and I doubt they really know what happened yet) the two occupants were killed by the Djinn, but not before gravely injuring him. He holed up there, healing, when one of the players (the one with 1 Corporeal Force and 1 Strength, natch) snuck in and got walloped before she even knew what hit her. When the entire group arrived (including the Seraphim fresh out of trauma) they discovered the bodies of the previous residents and the vessel of the Seraphim wrapped in cellophane (to keep the stench down) and moldering nicely. They were trying to figure out how to clean up the safehouse (and preparing to buy lye and the like) when I suggested to the Ofanite of Janus that he had a favor owed him by another Servitor of Janus who handled these sorts of things as a matter of course. One phone call later, and they were back on the road. What they don't realize is the friend the Servitor of Janus brought with him was a Malakite of Gabriel, and their idea of "clean it up" is "destroy all the evidence". The Malakite's working at infiltrating the world of high-priced insurance fraud as a firebug, sometimes leaving enough evidence to link the perpetrator to the crime, occasionally catching those perpetrating the fraud inside, and always making sure the fires spread safely and don't catch any innocent bystanders. He (with Role/6 (Arsonist) and Knowledge/6 (Arson)) is going to torch the place, with enough precautions that the fire doesn't spread (much) beyond the single apartment, and on the way out destroy the security tapes and call the fire department. I don't suspect the Cherub EMT (who went on shift right after leaving the apartment the first time) is going to be really thrilled showing up there the second time that night, to treat people for smoke inhalation. - -- Chris ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1329 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.