From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Sep 21 12:21:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18962 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:21:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA30015 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:57:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:57:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199909211657.LAA30015@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1336 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, September 21 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1336 In this digest: Re: [Fluff] Re: IN> A Disturbance in the Force Re: IN> Strange Idea IN> APG question (forces/damage) Re: IN> The Fall of Andrealphus Re: IN> The Fall of Andrealphus Re: IN> questions Re: IN> Strange Idea Re: IN> Strange Idea Re: IN> Seneschals and Forces Re: IN> Strange Idea Re: IN> Strange Idea Re: IN> APG question (forces/damage) Re: IN> Strange Idea IN> Re: IN- Strange Idea Re: IN> questions IN> form/realm questions Re: IN> Primordial Angels Re: IN> questions Re: IN> Strange Idea Re: IN> Seneschals and Forces Re: IN> APG question (forces/damage) Re: IN> Andrealpheus Re: IN> Haagenti and the Ultimate Joke... Re: IN> Seneschals and Forces Marc & Lilith (Re: IN> Primordial Angels) Re: IN> questions Re: IN> form/realm questions Re: IN> Strange Idea Re: IN> form/realm questions Re: IN> Strange Idea ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:16:59 -0500 (CDT) From: paranial@creighton.edu Subject: Re: [Fluff] Re: IN> A Disturbance in the Force On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 12:06 AM -0500 9/18/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > From: Whistling in the Dark > >> > >> At 1:32 AM -0400 9/17/99, JadePsion@aol.com wrote: > >> >....and who decides what good and evil is. > >> > >> I do. > >> I called dibs. > > > >Ok, that's fair. But I get to decide what cool and lame is. > >And I also call shotgun. > >I originally was going to call dibs on who lives and who dies, but I > >believe that's the line editor's perogative. > > Oh, quite. I also get to decide what Good and Awful is, and call for > rewrites. > > You need not convince us Beth. We know you are the Ultimate Power in the In Nomine Universe. You hold in you hands the powers of Rewrite and Retcon. You could wipe out entire Chiors of Angels and Bands of Demons of Demons if you wished. (Or if you thought it would sell books). I know I play WoD I know the power your kind ie: Line Editors/Devolpers weild. Bradley Paranial Mercurian Vassal of War. Beholder of the Reckoning. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:54:55 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Strange Idea At 08:33 PM 9/20/99 -0600, you wrote: > Alright I was reading the CPG and I noticed that humans can receive >choir/band attunements if they get a force from a celestial of the type in >question. So it is possible for Kronos to give a human an angelic >resonance (unless you interpret the bit in the IPG really strictly about >how the attunement comes from a Balseraphs ability to lie to the Symphony). >But beyond that Yves could grant a human an angelic resonance with his >Master distinction. > So what would dissonance do to a human? I would think that instead >of gaining dissonance they would suffer hits (of some appropriate type), or >perhaps granting them a resonance would permently alter them and dissonance >may accumulate and turn to disadvantages (or actual Discord). It was just >an odd thought bouncing around in my head that I decided to share. > If this happens could they then hear the symphony esp. symphonic disturbances? This seems to be an important part of all resonances. I ask this because of a game I am going to run. The characters play normal mortal high school sophmores in New York City. Their lives are about as normal as High school students lives get until one day they get swept into the world of the War. The basic concept is that so called angel A is actually a Balseraph of Kronos. angel B, fledgling seraph of Yves and friend of the characters discovers this and while attempting to flee is wounded by some powerful artifat thing(exact details not yet finished). As she dies she gives her remaining forces to the kids and tells them who to contact and what to tell them as well as some little tidits of information. They are then chased around the city by most of the demons and angels all the while trying to get their information to someone who believes them. The forces thing looks like a good way to connect them to the symphony and I was wondering if it is canon or not. Ben, Mercurian of Blandine, Angel of LARPs ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 22:38:21 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> APG question (forces/damage) On page 32 of the APG under "Life-linked Attunement", it speaks of the loss of Forces and its relationship to the Cherub. What is the relationship between amount of damage taken and number of forces lost? (other than in Celestial combat) More specifically, is there any relationship between Corporeal Combat and loss of Forces?? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "They say there's just enough religion in the world to make people hate one another but not enough to make them love." - Louis Cyphre Angel Heart ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:43:09 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> The Fall of Andrealphus Janet Anderson wrote: <> From the IPG, it does state that he was the Archangel of Love (page 12). <> The problem I have with this is that reduces Andre to what he is in the published material: a shallow, cardboard cut-out that only thinks about sex. That's probably a hold-over from the original INS/MV, but it's rather limiting and boring. How would such a being manage to keep their position of Demon Prince throughout the millenia? Saminga hates him, and it was said in Night Music that Saminga was more powerful than some Princes before he became one himself. What stops Saminga from crushing him? I mean, the other Princes don't really give a damn about him, there were only Hostile and Enemy Princes towards him at the time. Lucifer may have tried to talk Saminga out of it, but would that really connect in Saminga's head? Also, taking your argument, shouldn't Andrealpheus' Word have flared up in him like Dominic's did? In this case, it would have been his love of God that would keep him on the side of Heaven. I mean, the way you say it, it does make sense, but there are holes in the logic. S. Flanigan Demon of Taking Characters Apart Messing Around With Them and Putting Them Back Together in New Forms ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 06:27:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Wade Trupke Subject: Re: IN> The Fall of Andrealphus > From: "Janet Anderson" > Subject: IN> The Fall of Andrealphus > > Love, as I see it, is a primary unselfish trait, and one of the most > powerful facets of angelic nature. What Lucifer did was taint this love > with selfishness, the prime facet of diabolic nature. This is relatively > easy to envision: Lucifer asking Andre what *he* was getting out of all > this love, whether he was loved as much as he deserved, why he shouldn't > think of what *he* wanted once in a while, promising that if he followed > Lucifer he could please *himself* and not always be looking outward to what > pleased other people ... and before you can say "Look out below," you have a > demon whose only concern is his own desires and pleasures, who feels that > other people are tools, vessels, objects in the attainment of those > pleasures, and who doesn't care about (or even acknowledge) anyone's needs, > wishes, feelings, or preferences except his own. No more looking outward to > the beloved; only looking inward to your own pleasure. In other words, the > Angel of Love has fallen and become the Angel of Lust. > I have a hard time seeing this working. Andre, as Angel of Love, would just reply, "Love is it's own reward," or, "I get the joy of seeing a new love bloom," or something sappy like that. (And you can't convince me that the Angel of Love wouldn't be sappy.) So Lucifer tries a different tactic - he shows Andre stories of Love Gone Wrong. A particularly nasty love triangle. (X loves Y. X tries to win Y's love. But Y only loves Z, who loves Y back. After not having his love returned, X loses it, kills Z for keeping his love from him, kills Y for not loving him back. X then realizes he just killed his One True Love, and kills himself.) Maybe a Romeo/Juliet-esque, doomed love tale. A few others. Lucifer tells Andre, "Love brings pain," and leaves him to stew for a while. Andre, who, by the nature of his word, loves everything, is aghast that he has hurt people through his word. He tries to figure out where he went wrong, how to stop this. Eventually, he finds his answer: without the emotional connection of Love, there's no pain. The trappings of Love, without the Love itself. Lust. Of course, he had to become an Impudite to reach this conclusion... Wade (Kobal plays old home videos of Andre in his sappy angelic days, just to annoy him) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:36:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> questions Jonas Hällström wrote: > > can anyone give me a describtion of >   > Ofanim > Seraphim > Malakim > Mercurian > Cherubim > Elohim > Kyriotate For a complete and authoritative description, see the In Nomine main book, of course, but off the top of my head (but in descending order from most divine and least human, to least divine and most human): Seraphim - in celestial form, they look like winged, six-eyed serpents. They can effortlessly detect lies, but it causes them dissonance (spiritual damage) to tell lies. Their fallen opposites are the Balseraphs, who are pathological liars. Seraphim are the least human, most "divine" choir. Cherubim - in celestial form, they look like winged animals, or like sphinx-like composites. They can effortlessly track the location of any person or object they are "attuned" to; they then have a strong urge to protect their attunement target. If it gets damaged, they take dissonance. Their fallen opposites are the Djinn, who stalk and harrass their attuned, but can't directly damage them. Ophanim - in celestial form, they look like wheels of fire, or systems of wheels. They are Heaven's couriers and can move with great speed. They are habitually restless, and to deliberately stay still gives them dissonance. Their fallen opposites are the Calabim, who are demons of destruction. Elohim - in celestial form, they look like hairless androgynes. They can effortlessly sense the emotions and attitudes of people (human or celestial) around them. It is dissonant for them to let their emotions sway their judgement. Their fallen opposites are the Habbalah, who inflict emotions on their victims, to punish them. Malakim - in celestial form, they look like conventional angels, winged humans, though the wings are black. They are angels of vengance. They can effortlessly detect the sins (or at least the "dishonorable" acts) of people around them, human or celestial. It is dissonant for them to violate their oaths, and all Malakim take at least two, usually more. They have no fallen opposites; they don't fall, but if they get too out of line, their Superiors or choir-mates may destroy them. Kyriotates - in celestial form, they look like swirling clouds of eyes, mouths, and hands. They cannot assume physical vessels, but they can take possession of many corporeal hosts, human or animal. It is dissonant for them to harm their hosts or lead them into harm's way. Their fallen opposites are the Shedim, who possess one person at a time and must corrupt them or take dissonance. Mercurians - in celestial form, they look like conventional angels, beautiful humans with white wings. They can effortlessly know the social relationships among the people around them. It is dissonant for them to commit violence. Their fallen opposites are the Impudites, who drain energy ("Essence") from their victims, but still cannot do violence. Mercurians are the most human choir. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:02:08 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Idea only problem with this is that only Superiors can grant forces to anyone, especially mortals. I can't really offer any more, since even though I own all the IN books I still haven't finished reading them all. bleh. - - Dennis H, Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, "ACF" - -----Original Message----- From: Ben Aldred To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, September 20, 1999 11:52 PM Subject: Re: IN> Strange Idea > >The characters play normal mortal high school sophmores in New York City. >Their lives are about as normal as High school students lives get until one >day they get swept into the world of the War. The basic concept is that so >called angel A is actually a Balseraph of Kronos. angel B, fledgling >seraph of Yves and friend of the characters discovers this and while >attempting to flee is wounded by some powerful artifat thing(exact details >not yet finished). As she dies she gives her remaining forces to the kids >and tells them who to contact and what to tell them as well as some little >tidits of information. They are then chased around the city by most of the >demons and angels all the while trying to get their information to someone >who believes them. The forces thing looks like a good way to connect them >to the symphony and I was wondering if it is canon or not. >Ben, Mercurian of Blandine, Angel of LARPs > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:40:38 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Strange Idea At 09:02 AM 9/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >only problem with this is that only Superiors can grant forces to anyone, >especially mortals. I can't really offer any more, since even though I own >all the IN books I still haven't finished reading them all. bleh. > would it be possible for this to be a temporary thing? hold this force until i get back kind of thing. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:54:39 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Seneschals and Forces At 20:04 -0400 9/20/99, Amo Nympham wrote: >I scoured the Liber Castellorum and couldn't find the answer: what's the >typical force range and distinction level of a Seneschal for the 3 "levels" >of Tethers? The minimum is 13 Forces and a 1st level distinction. I think this is mentioned in at least a couple places, but it's definitely in the chapter on Seneschals. I don't think there are any specifics beyond that, since it's rather variable, depending mostly on the whim of the Superior, and the maturing of the Seneschal with his Tether. I'd probably go for 13-14 Forces for a small Tether, 15-16 for a typical Tether, and 17-18 for a large Tether. The latter two probably also rate a 3rd-level distinction -- they're important enough and their resources are usually great enough that I'd be hesitant to put a lesser Servitor in charge of one. Also, note that the Tether Forces are essentially part of a Word-Bound Seneschal, so that changes things a bit, once the Seneschal is bound. (I believe the GMG canonizes these as Word Forces; that was the original intent when the Tether stuff was written, but it was deemed inappropriate to add them to canon in a peripheral book like the L.Castellorum, and they needed more playtest comment, anyway.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:58:24 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Strange Idea At 22:33 -0400 9/20/99, Tim Groth wrote: > So what would dissonance do to a human? I would think that instead >of gaining dissonance they would suffer hits (of some appropriate type), This seems likely, since Geases already work this way -- violating them causes dissonance for celestials, but inflicts corporeal hits on humans. > or >perhaps granting them a resonance would permently alter them and dissonance >may accumulate and turn to disadvantages (or actual Discord). I don't think they can get that close to celestial nature; humans are too mutable, not rigidly-categorized like celestials. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:18:37 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Strange Idea At 23:54 -0400 9/20/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >If this happens could they then hear the symphony esp. symphonic >disturbances? In general, humans with 6 or more Forces can hear the Symphony, whether they've got grafted celestial Forces or not. > This seems to be an important part of all resonances. Yes, it is, or at least all the Perception-based ones. > As she dies she gives her remaining forces to the kids In canon, only Superiors can graft Forces onto *anybody*. Normal celestials can gain or lose Forces without Superior intervention, but thay can't give them to anyone else, nor can they take them from others. (Superiors can do both.) If you want to do this, and the angel's going to dissolve anyway, I'd probably give her some funky lost Song that destroys the singer and glues their Forces onto random bystanders. Since the Song will die with her (unless people can find where she got it), this shouldn't be a problem -- a number of lost Songs have very powerful effects, a few of which even Superiors can't duplicate. > The forces thing looks like a good way to connect them >to the symphony and I was wondering if it is canon or not. Well, yes, if it could be done by random celestials, grafting an extra Force onto a 5-Force human will *generally* make them Symphonically aware. You should probably get the Corporeal Players Guide, since there's a lot of stuff in there about how humans become aware. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:20:46 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> APG question (forces/damage) At 1:38 -0400 9/21/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >More specifically, is there any relationship between Corporeal Combat and >loss of Forces?? Generally, no. As far as I know, there's no way for a corporeal being (human or celestial in a vessel) to lose Forces, though they can lose Soul hits under some very specific circumstances (typically to demonic attunements). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:23:30 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Strange Idea At 9:40 -0400 9/21/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >At 09:02 AM 9/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >>only problem with this is that only Superiors can grant forces to anyone, >>especially mortals. I can't really offer any more, since even though I own >>all the IN books I still haven't finished reading them all. bleh. >> >would it be possible for this to be a temporary thing? hold this force >until i get back kind of thing. That's even further from canon -- I know of no way for non Superiors to handle loose Forces in any way. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:33:52 PDT From: "Luke Stargazer" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Strange Idea At risk of sounding heretical, "it is YOUR game, dude!" Luke Mercurian of Photoshop >would it be possible for this to be a temporary thing? hold this force >until i get back kind of thing. >Ben ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:28:15 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> questions At 21:59 -0400 9/20/99, Jonas Hällström wrote: [stuff that totally vanished when viewed with Eudora] Please turn off all the MIME/HTML settings in your mail application (Microsoft brain-damage turns them on by default, probably because it's maximally incompatible). Messages to this list should be sent only in plain ASCII, for a number of reasons. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:23:19 -0700 From: "Jace" Subject: IN> form/realm questions In heaven (Celestial realm) everyone is in celestial form, be it a ring of fire or a winged snake. Is this right? What happens if you punch someone? Does it do celestial damage? What if you hose down a ring of fire guy with a celestial fire extinguisher? If you have an item could you hand it to someone with no arms? can they hold it? Wouldn't Yves have trouble getting enough librarians with appropriate limbs to file/handle books for him? What about the Marches (Ethereal realm), I read that you can't do ethereal damage without something special like a song. If you punch someone what kind of damage do they take? I could be wrong but, one of the dangers of the marches is getting lost. But, it say's you can just return to heaven then from there return to your vessel on earth (Corporeal realm). Am I reading that right? If you're on earth you can just make a will roll and beam yourself to heaven. So in effect it is impossible to capture, or strand PC's in any situation, in the marches or earth (when they can make will rolls to leave). Because they would just switch realms. Am I getting this right? Yours truly Confused. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:10:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Primordial Angels At 7:07 PM -0500 9/20/99, Trent wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Elizabeth McCoy >> But it was like that when I got here and I'm hardly going to go >> changing it _now_.... O:> ) > >Especially since Micheal was just given an expanded write-up in Superiors 1. Well, he had his first expanded write-up in The Final Trumpet, really. But he had the _definitive_ expanded write-up in Superiors 1, forthcoming. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:19:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> questions At 9:36 AM -0500 9/21/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Jonas Hällström wrote: >> >> can anyone give me a describtion of >> >> Ofanim >> Seraphim >> Malakim >> Mercurian >> Cherubim >> Elohim >> Kyriotate > >For a complete and authoritative description, see the In Nomine >main book, of course, but off the top of my head (but in descending >order from most divine and least human, to least divine and most human): There's also a cute quickie little thing at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/Angelic/choirs/ . And, a reminder to everyone. DO NOT SEND NON-ASCII TO THE LIST. If I see HTML or MIME stuff, I will forward the whole message back to you with a very grumpy comment about turning the stuff off. (And if you don't, I _will_ u n s u b s c r i b e people until they get the message and grovel sufficiently and mend their ways. Either that, or I will discuss the matter with their ISP...) - --Beth, Djinn Princess of List Admin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:22:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Strange Idea At 11:54 PM -0400 9/20/99, Ben Aldred wrote: [SNIP!] >The forces thing looks like a good way to connect them >to the symphony and I was wondering if it is canon or not. It's not -- mostly because it takes a Superior to attach Forces to a living thing. At least, and have it still be living afterward... However, if you have a Funky Cool Artifact, you can give it Funky Cool Vital To The Plot powers, and I'll go, "Hey, whatever." Not that I'd send the Habbalah of Nitpicking around even if you decided not to do canon, but this way you're using a Unique Plot Device instead of changing the way your universe runs, which you may find more useful in the long run. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:29:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Seneschals and Forces At 7:04 PM -0500 9/20/99, Amo Nympham wrote: >I scoured the Liber Castellorum and couldn't find the answer: what's the >typical force range and distinction level of a Seneschal for the 3 "levels" >of Tethers? There is no canonical typical Force range, except that it's 13 and above to get the post, and a first-level Distinction. (Check p. 34.) If the Tether is powerful, then the Seneschal will be becoming more powerful as well. 14 Forces, minimum, for an "average" Tether, say, and 15 for a "large" one. Remember that personal Forces max out at 18. (Word-Forces can be much more powerful... But they're in the GMG. However, they do dovetail nicely with Forces invested in Tethers... Clever, aren't we?) Likewise, any Seneschal worth his salt will be earning more Distinctions for his good work promoting his (or her) Superior's Word via the safe base of the Tether. An "average" Tether's Seneschal might stay at the lowest Distinction ranking for a while, but will probably eventually get at least the middle Distinction of the main book's three. Likewise, a "strong" Tether's Seneschal is probably going to have at least a 2nd-level Distinction (possibly to even be considered for the post, if the Superior knew this would be a strong Tether!), and should eventually be earning a 3rd level Distinction. But those are _averages_, and sometimes you find Really Weird Stuff. Like a human caretaker... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:31:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> APG question (forces/damage) At 10:38 PM -0700 9/20/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >On page 32 of the APG under "Life-linked Attunement", it speaks of the loss >of Forces and its relationship to the Cherub. [...] >More specifically, is there any relationship between Corporeal Combat and >loss of Forces?? Ummmmmmm..... No. Blast. I'm going to have to figure out what this was _intended_ to mean and do some errata. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:33:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Andrealpheus At 11:03 PM -0400 9/18/99, Samovar3@aol.com wrote: >Looking over the servitor attunements in the rulebook, why does Andrealpheus >give his servitors the Kiss of Death? It makes no sense for a Superior to >have a servitor attunement that if it uses would give it a point of >dissonance. Only if they use it against a human, though. (And it's possible that if the human died of it and wound up in Shal-Mari to be exploited and Essence-sucked for_ever_, that wouldn't entirely count as dissonance for an Impudite Prince.) If they use it against demons and angels (and remember that Andre _likes_ it when his people seduce angels), then it's copacetic (sp?) and indeed, perhaps even designed for exactly that. After all, what better trick to pull on some annoying demon of the War who thinks that the Servitor of Lust is a wimp to be used to satisfy a few carnal desires? Nothing in the description says that it has to be used during consensual sex, or sex the Lustie initiated... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:33:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti and the Ultimate Joke... At 4:38 PM -0600 9/19/99, ParadoxDruid wrote: >[...] Kobal's ultimate joke is Haagenti eating >(figuratively, literally, or both) Lucifer and taking over hell.... [...] >I know in IMC, Haagenti's going to realize this.... and he's not going to >be happy. ;-) Why not? If it works, he can have Kobal as dessert.... O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:35:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Seneschals and Forces At 10:54 AM -0400 9/21/99, Walter Milliken wrote: >Also, note that the Tether Forces are essentially part of a Word-Bound >Seneschal, so that changes things a bit, once the Seneschal is bound. >(I believe the GMG canonizes these as Word Forces; It certainly canonizes them as an option -- but a GM can just handwave over them without losing much, unless _all_ his PCs are Word-bound. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:33:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Marc & Lilith (Re: IN> Primordial Angels) At 12:11 AM -0400 9/20/99, Samovar3@aol.com wrote: >While it's sort of vaguely on the subject, a while ago, it was mentioned that >some people interpreted the Mercurian dissonance condition as to include >psychological damage as well. Could this be how Lilith learned how to >bargain? > >Lilith: Well, it's a deal then. >Marc: Ah ha! You missed out subsection 5, paragraph 14, line 2, clause 3 >that states the conditions of our agreement. Since you're not a celestial, I >don't have to give you anything and you still have to give me the relic. >Lilith (crying): You're mean! >(Marc eats a point of dissonance.) >Marc: Erm, let me teach you how to avoid that. There, there. Don't cry. Actually, for _Marc_, you don't even need to have the Mercurian dissonance include psychological -- his people have to make _FAIR_ trades. If he tricked someone out of something that was in the spirit of the contract, he'd likely get dissonant himself. It'd certainly never be something he'd _think_ of doing... So it might go something like... Lilith: Looks good here... Marc: Um... You're sure? Lilith: Shouldn't I be? Marc : Well, there's this little subsection here, and I just want to be sure you understand the implications... Lilith: Oh. Indeed. No, no, that's not very nice at all. >So, what's the standard Need level for "Not having to explain this dissonance >to Dominic/Asmodeus?" Standard level 6? Probably depends on how the dissonance was acquired, and what sorts of problems (for demons) they're likely to encounter with the Game. Now, the Need level to avoid being _arrested_ by Judgment or the Game... That's almost certain to be high. Especially the Game. They do so love public torture and executions... (At least, in my games...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:42:57 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> questions From: Walter Milliken > > Please turn off all the MIME/HTML settings in your mail application > (Microsoft brain-damage turns them on by default, probably because it's > maximally incompatible). Actually, it's more a case of the "isn't this neat" factor. A lot of people like being able to play with toys like HTML-mail. And it's not like M$ has a monopoly on striving toward incmpatibility, but that's taking us further off-topic, so I'll not clutter up the list further with this subject. Azzur, Malakim of the Sword in Service to Protection (Who likes all the bells and whistles, but not when posting to the list) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:51:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> form/realm questions At 9:23 AM -0700 9/21/99, Jace wrote: >In heaven (Celestial realm) everyone is in celestial form, be it a ring of >fire or a winged snake. Is this right? Yes. They can, according to GURPS IN, forthcoming, also be in their "vessel form" at the exact same time. It's a paradox and will make your brain hurt to think about it, but it lets Seraphim and Ofanim use thumbs if they really want. > What happens if you punch someone? In Heaven, you get dissonant. And Judgment lands on you. >Does it do celestial damage? Yes. >What if you hose down a ring of fire guy with >a celestial fire extinguisher? It gets messy and keeps burning. Unless the "fire extinguisher" is some kind of general poison that will hurt any celestial. Watch out for Vapulan fire extinguishers. >If you have an item could you hand it to >someone with no arms? Yes. > can they hold it? Usually. Somehow. >Wouldn't Yves have trouble getting >enough librarians with appropriate limbs to file/handle books for him? Nah. >What about the Marches (Ethereal realm), I read that you can't do ethereal >damage without something special like a song. Song, attunement, or other ability that allows one to turn one's mind into a weapon -- and battlefield... >If you punch someone what kind of damage do they take? Mind hits, if you can damage them at all. Or you can engage in celestial combat, just as if you'd gone celestial in the corporeal realm. >I could be wrong but, one of the dangers of the marches is getting lost. >But, it say's you can just return to heaven then from there return to your >vessel on earth (Corporeal realm). Am I reading that right? IIRC, returning to your Heart from the Marches -- without first going through a Tower of Beleth or Blandine -- is errata'ed. I could be wrong, but I certainly _intend_ to do that... If you have a sleeping body, then you can make a Will roll and awaken in your body. >If you're on earth you can just make a will roll and beam yourself to >heaven. Yeah. If you are conscious, not bound by a relic or Song, and can make the Will roll. And if you have a Heart. And if you're an angel. And if you want to cause that much disturbance. And it takes 2 Will rolls -- one to go celestial, one to ascend to the Heart. Watch out for the Calabite grabbing you and following along to pound you some more. >So in effect it is impossible to capture, or strand PC's in any situation, >in the marches or earth (when they can make will rolls to leave). Because >they would just switch realms. Am I getting this right? Not entirely -- it's just a bit more difficult than slapping corporeal chains on them. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:45:05 -0700 From: "Jace" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Idea > > So what would dissonance do to a human? > Darn good question. I mean, part of the point of being human is that > you're *free*... unlike Celestials, you don't have a "nature" that compels > you to act a certain way. > I'd say humans Just Can't get dissonance. > Doug M. Don't forget Lilith is actually a human, and she has a word. If she goes against her own word does she get dissonance? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:54:14 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> form/realm questions At 12:23 -0400 9/21/99, Jace wrote: >In heaven (Celestial realm) everyone is in celestial form, be it a ring of >fire or a winged snake. Is this right? Essentially, though it's going to become canon (I think, if it's not already in the GMG) that celestials can also *simultaneously* make use of their human manifestations (if they have any). > What happens if you punch someone? >Does it do celestial damage? Yes, though it's not exactly a "punch", but more an act of will that could be interpreted as a "punch" from an humanocentric viewpoint. > What if you hose down a ring of fire guy with >a celestial fire extinguisher? There's really no such thing, as far as I know. > If you have an item could you hand it to >someone with no arms? can they hold it? Wouldn't Yves have trouble getting >enough librarians with appropriate limbs to file/handle books for him? This issue is one reason why the notion of manifesting a human vessel, partially or totally, is probably going to be added to canon. You could also look at it as though celestials all have telekinesis in the celestial realm, with a short "reach". And when the more anthropomorphic celestials use it, it is *seen* as them using arms and hands. But this is merely a perception. (There's some more stuff about the "reality" of perceptions of the celestial realm in Heaven and Hell, but I find it a bit fuzzy....) >What about the Marches (Ethereal realm), I read that you can't do ethereal >damage without something special like a song. Actually, I think the requirement is for something that lets you interact *inside a dreamscape*, though I don't think it's stated quite that way. *Outside* the Marches, you can't normally do mind combat unless you have one of the special ethereal Songs or attunements, I believe, or are an ethereal being. > If you punch someone what >kind of damage do they take? Mind hits. >I could be wrong but, one of the dangers of the marches is getting lost. I don't recall that specifically, but it's possible. >But, it say's you can just return to heaven then from there return to your >vessel on earth (Corporeal realm). Am I reading that right? Yes, that would generally work. But it won't help you find your way around *in* the Marches -- it just lets you escape. Just like humans can wake up. >So in effect it is impossible to capture, or strand PC's in any situation, >in the marches or earth (when they can make will rolls to leave). Because >they would just switch realms. Am I getting this right? Mostly, yes. There is a Song or two in the L.Canticorum that helps in this situation, and I think there is an artifact in the L.Reliquarum that can hold celestials in the corporeal realm. So it's not impossible, but it's not easy. Generally, the GM has to use more subtle controls than outright chains and walls to keep PCs from running away from situations. One thing that keeps PCs from running back to Heaven or Hell is that they're *not supposed to*. They will wind up back next to their Heart, and if they haven't accomplished their current mission, this may result in their Superior getting rather annoyed at them. There is also the issue of disturbance -- going celestial makes a fairly big noise, and will draw attention from other celestials. This can often be as much or more trouble than the character is trying to escape from. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:57:31 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Strange Idea At 12:45 -0400 9/21/99, Jace wrote: >> > So what would dissonance do to a human? >> Darn good question. I mean, part of the point of being human is that >> you're *free*... unlike Celestials, you don't have a "nature" that compels >> you to act a certain way. >> I'd say humans Just Can't get dissonance. >> Doug M. > > >Don't forget Lilith is actually a human, and she has a word. If she goes >against her own word does she get dissonance? It's not clear in general if Superiors get dissonance, in the classical sense. I think the GMG clarifies this some. (I need to *read* the thing, and not just skim it....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1336 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.