From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Sep 29 08:44:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17297 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:44:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id IAA01664 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:38:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:38:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199909291338.IAA01664@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1344 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, September 29 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1344 In this digest: Re: IN> Balseraphs and lying RE: IN> Balseraphs and lying RE: IN> Balseraphs and lying IN> Malakim Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) Re: IN> Plug for Pyramid Playtest Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) IN> Children of the Grigori (Re: White Wolf) Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> Stopping Spammers Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) IN> Prayer Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> White Wolf Re: IN> Stopping Spammers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 13:40:50 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs and lying At 11:26 AM -0500 9/28/99, Amo Nympham wrote: >here's something about Dissonance. if a Balseraph tells a lie without using >his resonance He can't. Remember, Balseraphs Don't Lie. (From their perspective.) They "make things true." (Obviously more powerful than the Seraph resonance! Just ask them.) >and then later tells a lie that's different would he take >Dissonance? here's the applied case: one of my players is a Balseraph of >Kobal, and he told the other players, without using his resonance, that he >was a Djinn of Asmodeus. Should have given him dissonance right there. At the least, he should have _tried_ to set up his internal reality to say that's accurate. If a Bal resonance-lies, and then resonance-lies something else later, the dissonance applies if his previous lie hasn't worn off yet. Otherwise, he's just changed reality again, and of _course_ he never said that other thing -- such deluded fools that surround him! Trying to make him crazy, are they? Why, he'll show them... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 13:47:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Balseraphs and lying At 12:35 PM -0400 9/28/99, Chris Bergstresser wrote: > So *whenever* a Balseraph lies, they have to invoke their resonance? Yes. (Or, if you want to be kind, at least make him make a Will roll to construct the reality in his head without trying to _force_ it on others. I'd call that a very anti-Bal way of thinking, mind, and wouldn't allow it in _my_ game... Remember, the Balseraphs view their resonance as "The ability to _make_ what I want to be true, true." If they want something to be true that isn't, they use their resonance -- just as naturally as you'd hold your breath while drinking a glass of water.) >What happens if they're talking to a group of people -- do each of them get >a will roll to resist? Yes. (Balseraphs are more effective talking to small numbers of people.) > Since the resonance only applies to a number of >people equal to the Balseraph's celestial forces at a time, are they >prohibited from talking to more than that number at a time? No -- the Balseraph picks the ones he's speaking to and trying to swamp with his resonance. The others have, effectively, automatically made their Will rolls with CD 0. (I.e., they can choose whether or not to believe what the Bal says, and Detect Lies will show that the Bal believes w he was saying. >If one resists >but the others don't, is the Balseraph prohibited from lying to the group? No. He merely cannot lie to the one who resisted (or, rather, he can lie his little heart out, but the one who resisted will not be swamped by the Balseraph's reality). If he's aware that one person has resisted (GM's option, I'd figure), then he can abandon trying to swamp _that_ person with his resonance and concentrate on any other targets who might happen to be in range. If someone in a group resists him with a 6 CD, though, he has to make a dissonance roll and his resonance is out of comission for the duration. Producing a desperately annoyed and unhappy Bal, no doubt, who can't "make things true" (lie) and can't lie, either. This is why you question Balseraphs with the high-Celestial Force Seraph. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:00:21 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: RE: IN> Balseraphs and lying At 12:35 -0400 9/28/99, Chris Bergstresser wrote: > So *whenever* a Balseraph lies, they have to invoke their resonance? >What happens if they're talking to a group of people -- do each of them get >a will roll to resist? Since the resonance only applies to a number of >people equal to the Balseraph's celestial forces at a time, are they >prohibited from talking to more than that number at a time? If one resists >but the others don't, is the Balseraph prohibited from lying to the group? I would say that the Balseraph always manages to convince himself on a successful resonance roll, and the resonance is more about convincing *others*. (I would tend to interpret a failed resonance roll for the Bal as him being unable to convince himself, which of course means he can't convince others, either.) So up to Cel. Forces people can have the resonance inflicted on them (and each would get a Will roll -- the Bal better hope they're all low Will!), while any additional people simply hear the Bal say whatever his currently reality is, and are free to take it or leave it. However, if they use Detect Lies (or the Seraph resonance, etc.), the Bal will *not* be lying, as he sees things. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:04:13 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malakim >>>Throughout my posts I was merely trying to express what I saw as inequalities between the Malakims write-ups aand fluff and the actual game mechanics.<<< Which means you still Don't Get It. Malakim are not "naturally better at combat." They *make* themselves better at combat. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:08:11 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf At 21:13 -0400 9/28/99, Steel Angel wrote: > But I have to agree, considering GURPS >converted -both- systems...just use that and it should be easy. I don't necessarily agree -- the WoD and the Symphony have rather inconsistent worldviews, and mixing them may not work entirely well, even with common mechanics. I'm also not certain that RPG conversions have the transitivity property -- both the WoD and IN ones aren't really even commutative, due to the richer detail level of GURPS. So I'd treat any such mixture of conversions with considerable skepticism. It's probably not much easier than simply trying to convert one to the other. The main problem isn't the mechanics, it's in somehow making the worldviews compatible. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:28:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) There is, of course, a plausible intermediate stage between Lucifer, Lord of Hell and Lucifer Repentant. That would be Renegade Lucifer. That is, he doesn't want to run Hell any more, and/or he's not comfortable with what he is, but he hasn't yet actually *repented* and come home to Heaven. This is, of course, pretty close to what Neil Gaiman did with Lucifer in his classic _Sandman_ books (and if you haven't read Gaiman's _Sandman_ books, run down to Borders and get them, right now. There are 10 bound volumes at $19.95 each, and it's a *good* investment. Not only are they wonderful in their own right, but they also exercised a powerful indirect influence on IN). Renegade Lucifer also appeared in Vertigo Comics' "The Morningstar Option", a 3-issue limited series that came out last year. To summarize, Gaiman's Lucifer has quit running Hell, and is no longer an active force for evil. But he has *not* repented. He's not altogether sure what to do with himself; he spent a while lying on a beach in Australia, thinking about things, and lately he's been running a nightclub in L.A. where he plays the piano until all hours and then sleeps in. Oh, and he holds sardonic and (apparently) one-sided conversations with God sometimes. Hell was turned upside down by his departure, and a vicious power struggle has been going on ever since. No one has come after him, though. In "The Morningstar Option", he gets a one-time contract to do a special, private job for Heaven -- the contracting angel looks like a Seraph of War to me though YMMV. In IN terms, a Renegade Lucifer could be... interesting. "Renegade" doesn't seem quite the right word for one of the most powerful entities in creation -- I doubt he'd have the problems that an ordinary demon has with the Game and whatnot -- so perhaps "Free Lucifer" or "Wandering Lucifer" might be better... I *don't* think that either Heaven or Hell would mess with him. The Demon Princes would be too busy struggling to take his place (and, given Lucifer's billion-year history of sneaky tricksiness, they'd probably also be worried that he was faking). Heaven, with the possible exception of Michael, would probably want to keep open the possibility of his Redemption. For bonus weirdness points, put Renegade Lucifer and Eli on the same park bench for an hour or two... Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 13:35:23 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Plug for Pyramid Playtest yay! I've been waiting for this for a while. I really must stress a Pyramid Subscription (currently roping all my players into it), if for nothing else than the playtest material. well, I'm off to warm up the laser printer so I can get a hardcopy to mark all to hell as I dissect it... - - Dennis H, Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, "ACF" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:51:50 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf >I'm also not certain that RPG conversions have the transitivity property -- >both the WoD and IN ones aren't really even commutative, due to the richer >detail level of GURPS. So I'd treat any such mixture of conversions with >considerable skepticism. It's probably not much easier than simply trying >to convert one to the other. The main problem isn't the mechanics, it's >in somehow making the worldviews compatible. True, but without the mechanics you'll have a nice worldview that is unplayable. Not everything in WoD is easily integrated into In-nomine. The easiest is Changeling (ethereals who can fuse to human souls, not pure canon, but not incompatable). Next come Werewolves (discussed early in the thread), then Wraiths (modification of the ghost rules, with Angst being something akin to dissonence). Vampires are a bit harder, but I remember some time ago someone mentioning how in their campeign a Balseraph of death started the kindred race and convinced them of their history (and him being Cain and so on and so forth). Mages are the hardest, as their flexible magick is totally out of line with In-nomine world view. Ideas that encompass mage are Interludes (seen a lot of sites mentioning something to the effect of regions were the Symphony is slightly redone) and just powerful sorcerors with the ability to give themselves an ethereal and/or celestial connection (IMC there are rituals that bestow those attunements so powerful sorcerors can use ethereal/celestial songs without a patron). Anyway that's just a quick and dirty run down. Timothy, "Angel" of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:45:27 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf In a message dated 9/28/99 6:49:37 PM, milliken@io.com writes: >I'm also not certain that RPG conversions have the transitivity property >-- >both the WoD and IN ones aren't really even commutative, due to the richer >detail level of GURPS. So I'd treat any such mixture of conversions with >considerable skepticism. It's probably not much easier than simply trying >to convert one to the other. The main problem isn't the mechanics, it's >in somehow making the worldviews compatible. > > >---Walter > Yep. I remember this going around once before, and I'll suggest my favorite idea: In Nomine celestials in the World of Darkness get True Faith/10 (or, as a slightly less painful variant, True Faith/celestial forces*2). This is because they *know* the Symphony exists, and that it's music controls the universe. What do all y'all think? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:47:53 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf Abracax: Shedite of Riots >That's funny actually, assuming the vamp elders are anywhere -near- the >level of Princes and Archangels. Just doesn't fit in my view at all, >considering that Superiors have a direct line into facets of the Symphony >that'd make magi shrivel up and die. But I have to agree, considering GURPS >converted -both- systems...just use that and it should be easy. BTW, since >Saminga 'invented' vampires, I wonder if the average Archangel even 'registers' >antes on the ol' power meter, or just see them as somewhat mightier undead? Sure I agree with what you say, but the game wasn't about applying In Nomine system to the creation of Vampires, it was about beings of immense power drawn from their own game systems. A VtM In Nomine crossover fails to become a crossover when Vampires are created by Saminga. In VtM Vampires are created by Caine. As such Antedeluvains, Archangles and Demon Princes are roughly equal. And the bottom line, the one which really counts, it was a great game. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:00:41 +0100 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) From: Douglas Muir > > Hell was turned upside down by his departure, and a vicious power struggle > has been going on ever since. No one has come after him, though. actually, he was replaced by two angels sent by god to keep hell running. they've seemingly done quite a good job at making the place even worse. you're right, though, the sandman stuff does give some cool ideas for really shaking things up. another idea you could nab is from the early issues, where morpheus pops down to hell for the first time in ages and finds it's now run by a triumvirate (lucifer, azazel and beelzebub, IIRC). they explain that hell was on the verge of civil war and only a consolidation of their power prevented it falling into utter chaos. an IN version could be something like luci, baal and asmodeus trying to rein in rebellious demon princes like saminga and malphas. of course, this would really only work in a setting that made lucifer less powerful than he appears to be in canon > > For bonus weirdness points, put Renegade Lucifer and Eli on the same park > bench for an hour or two... > cool. this whole sandman thing has started giving me a whole new load of ideas about that mysterious archangel of death... liam elohite of elephants ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:59:28 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf >Mages are the hardest, as their flexible >magick is totally out of line with In-nomine world view. Ideas that >encompass mage are Interludes (seen a lot of sites mentioning something to >the effect of regions were the Symphony is slightly redone) and just >powerful sorcerors with the ability to give themselves an ethereal and/or >celestial connection (IMC there are rituals that bestow those attunements >so powerful sorcerors can use ethereal/celestial songs without a patron). I don't know, maybe if one wanted to in their own campaign they could define the mages as the children of the grigori whose resonance is to manipulate the symphony with their will(magick) but who have the potential of gaining dissonance(paradox) if they do it too obviously(create enough noise). That is how I would define the whole mage thing at least in terms of mechanics and a slight story tie in. BTW are the children of the grigori CDaU? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:03:21 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) >you're right, though, the sandman stuff does give some cool ideas for really >shaking things up. another idea you could nab is from the early issues, >where morpheus pops down to hell for the first time in ages and finds it's >now run by a triumvirate (lucifer, azazel and beelzebub, IIRC). they explain >that hell was on the verge of civil war and only a consolidation of their >power prevented it falling into utter chaos. an IN version could be >something like luci, baal and asmodeus trying to rein in rebellious demon >princes like saminga and malphas. of course, this would really only work in >a setting that made lucifer less powerful than he appears to be in canon well, in sandman he actually made a sort of comment to the effect that he was more or less humoring the other two into thinking it was a triumvirate. So that could work with maybe saminga having "defeated" lucifer and forced a coalition gov't or something. Ben, Soldier of Dreams(occasionally) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:27:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Children of the Grigori (Re: White Wolf) At 3:59 PM -0400 9/28/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >BTW are the children of the grigori CDaU? No. Their book just hasn't been arranged yet. *grumble* However, there will hopefully be stuff about them in GURPS IN. Since there is going to be a straight IN book about them _eventually_. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:23:42 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf At 15:59 -0400 9/28/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >BTW are the children of the grigori CDaU? No -- they'll have real canon at some point. Some of the mechanics was swiped (and nailed down) for inclusion in GURPS In Nomine. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:30:46 +0100 From: Ashley Subject: Re: IN> Stopping Spammers For every trick we come up with to stop spam the spammers they will find a way around it. Spam is a fact of net life, it will happen at times. I agree it is irritating, but it is hardly the end of the world. I have a trash basket, spam goes there. Added security may limit the spam but it might also limit ease of access to the list, this could have consequences. As an MIB I do not want to hear stuff from Joe Public about it being difficult to access SJ Games mailing lists. Not only does it make my work more difficult, it gives a bad impression. Ashley ashley.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:56:04 -0500 From: "Trent" Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf > At 15:59 -0400 9/28/99, Ben Aldred wrote: > >BTW are the children of the grigori CDaU? > > No -- they'll have real canon at some point. Some of the mechanics was > swiped (and nailed down) for inclusion in GURPS In Nomine. As well as the CPG (unless that didn't make the playtest cut). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:57:23 +0100 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant From: Ben Aldred > > well, in sandman he actually made a sort of comment to the effect that he > was more or less humoring the other two into thinking it was a triumvirate. > So that could work with maybe saminga having "defeated" lucifer and > forced a coalition gov't or something. yeah, i guess you could have a set-up with some of the smarter types (baal or malphas) making a break for power, and lucifer getting the dumber guys (saminga, belial) on his side. still, that would suggest that he needs help (ie was little more than a souped-up demon prince). from the way i've read him in IN, i'd suspect he could just strip the powers off any princes who gave him gyp. liam angel of cute goth chicks ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:54:44 +0100 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf From: Walter Milliken > >At 15:59 -0400 9/28/99, Ben Aldred wrote: > >BTW are the children of the grigori CDaU? > > No -- they'll have real canon at some point. Some of the mechanics was > swiped (and nailed down) for inclusion in GURPS In Nomine. > i kind of had suspicions that the grigori were being "saved" for a big sourcebook or new cycle or something. if they're popping up in Gurps IN i'd be a bit tempted to get it, even though i'm never going to run a G-IN game. liam balseraph of banisters ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:08:44 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf At 17:56 -0400 9/28/99, Trent wrote: >> At 15:59 -0400 9/28/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >> >BTW are the children of the grigori CDaU? >> >> No -- they'll have real canon at some point. Some of the mechanics was >> swiped (and nailed down) for inclusion in GURPS In Nomine. > >As well as the CPG (unless that didn't make the playtest cut). They didn't, as I recall. There may be a brief mention of them, without mechanics. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:49:40 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf At 17:54 -0400 9/28/99, Liam Astley wrote: >i kind of had suspicions that the grigori were being "saved" for a big >sourcebook or new cycle or something. if they're popping up in Gurps IN i'd >be a bit tempted to get it, even though i'm never going to run a G-IN game. I wouldn't object.... Your suspicions are not unreasonable, though.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:19:03 +1000 From: "Shane and family" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) [Lucifer redeems; various comments about effects on Heaven and Hell] First I'll stick my oar in and suggest that Heaven would not, as a whole, disband/punish Lucifer. As was pointed out, true redemption requires the very changes to one's way of thought and life (repentance, restitution, reformation) that make punishment the wrong thing to do them; one will do it themselves, and Heaven will have *plenty* for the Lightbringer to do. On to the Really Big Question in my mind. Okay, Hell's in turmoil and Heaven's bells are ringing. What about Humanity? A sizable percentage of it has been conditioned through thousands of years of religion - Heavenly inspired religion - to view Lucifer as The Ultimate Evil in all his various guises, and now he's a good guy... Shane. [Soldier of Dreams] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:37:27 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) Is it really possible for the Lightbringer to redeem? After all, he's the Balseraph's Balseraph, and was the first to decide that there was no man behind the curtain. Countless hordes of demons make up his personal Symphony, and the power they produce matches and stalemates that of the real Symphony. With that much validating his lie, it would take an impressive argument to redeem Lucifer. Everyone makes Hell out to be in shambles after Lucifer leads, but is this really true? Lucifer isn't THAT powerful, and rules from the shadows. He keeps Hell divided against itself. If he left, what's to stop a few of Hell's more militant Princes from toughening up the lowerarchy? Imagine what Asmodeus, Kronos, and Baal could do with Hell as the strongest organizers and control freaks... I also believe that if Lucifer redeems, Kobal would, at the very least, go Renegade. He and Lucifer are two peas in the same pod. It's just coincidence that Lucifer is the bigger pea. But I ramble -- my points are: the concept of Lucifer redeeming seems as far-fetched as Yves (or God) falling. Interesting, but no. And even if he did, such an action would, in all likelyhood, turn Hell into a devastating military dictatorship. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 19:12:43 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) >Is it really possible for the Lightbringer to redeem? > >After all, he's the Balseraph's Balseraph, and was the first to decide >that there was no man behind the curtain. Countless hordes of demons >make up his personal Symphony, and the power they produce matches >and stalemates that of the real Symphony. With that much validating his >lie, it would take an impressive argument to redeem Lucifer. > >Everyone makes Hell out to be in shambles after Lucifer leads, but is >this really true? Lucifer isn't THAT powerful, and rules from the >shadows. He keeps Hell divided against itself. If he left, what's to >stop a few of Hell's more militant Princes from toughening up the >lowerarchy? Imagine what Asmodeus, Kronos, and Baal could do >with Hell as the strongest organizers and control freaks... > >I also believe that if Lucifer redeems, Kobal would, at the very least, >go Renegade. He and Lucifer are two peas in the same pod. It's just >coincidence that Lucifer is the bigger pea. > >But I ramble -- my points are: the concept of Lucifer redeeming seems >as far-fetched as Yves (or God) falling. Interesting, but no. And even if >he did, such an action would, in all likelyhood, turn Hell into a >devastating >military dictatorship. First off you get essence. Second off you get props for some interesting ideas. There is weighty evidence against him redeeming, but its not impossible. IMO hell would fall appart because it seems to be Lucifer's symphony running things, he is the one who gives out Words, the other princes don't know how to otherwise another would make a bid for power, they'd have something to base it on. As it stands Lucifer rules not just because hell is divided (and Malphas does most of that for Lucifer) but because he gives out Words and can convince challangers they don't want to fight him. That and part of the infernal symphony seems to be, "Follow Lucifer" and even renegades have a healthy respect for the Lightbringer. If he redeemed (however unlikely) hell would be in turmoil. If demons kept their Words (I assume Kronos could at least maintain demonic Words if not give new ones out) then Hell might become a well organized, unified machine of evil (or more likely split into two different camps between militant and peaceful). Also Hell itself as a celestial location would likely loose some cohesion, as Lucifer built a significant portion of it. At least the lower hells would collapse a bit, which could be lots of fun (earthquakes in hell, principalities swallowed up and so on and so forth). I think Lucifer going 'renegade' is more interesting and plausable, no longer interested in active rebellion but not interested in saying he was wrong. That would be interesting, and seems to be what Season of Mists is about (which I need to get and read but sounds very interesting). Anyway I'm going to go waste my essence. Timothy, "Angel" of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:23:42 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf Walter Milliken wrote: > At 21:13 -0400 9/28/99, Steel Angel wrote: > > But I have to agree, considering GURPS > >converted -both- systems...just use that and it should be easy. > > I'm also not certain that RPG conversions have the transitivity property -- > both the WoD and IN ones aren't really even commutative, due to the richer > detail level of GURPS. So I'd treat any such mixture of conversions with > considerable skepticism. It's probably not much easier than simply trying > to convert one to the other. The main problem isn't the mechanics, it's > in somehow making the worldviews compatible. Oh I agree with -that- 100%. I was just answering the question of if it must be done. IN kinda kills the whole WoD idea o the Triat since IN posits, you know, -God- at the top of the heap. Then there's that whole Saminga thing about vampires. Making the invention of The Idiot Prince as powerful as some Wordbound is kinda silly, after all. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:43:29 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) Ben Glickler wrote: > Is it really possible for the Lightbringer to redeem?. > > Everyone makes Hell out to be in shambles after Lucifer leads, but is > this really true? Lucifer isn't THAT powerful, and rules from the > shadows. He keeps Hell divided against itself. If he left, what's to > stop a few of Hell's more militant Princes from toughening up the > lowerarchy? Imagine what Asmodeus, Kronos, and Baal could do > with Hell as the strongest organizers and control freaks... > > But I ramble -- my points are: the concept of Lucifer redeeming seems > as far-fetched as Yves (or God) falling. Interesting, but no. And even if > he did, such an action would, in all likelyhood, turn Hell into a > devastating military dictatorship. > > There you go. Remember that stuff in the IPG (I think) about Baal talking > with Belial and trying to get him to act more like a leader? Imagine Belial > as the head of Hell's 'police' with Kronos and Baal in charge and Asmodeus > still heading up 'intelligence'. A -lot- of the internecine fighting in Hell > would probably stop because no one, not even Saminga, would want to face > -those- four down. Malphas would be livid, Kobal might actually worry, > Haagenti would probably go whichever way Kobal went. Andre, Nybbas, and > Vapula would probably go on with business as usual as long as the heads were > smart (as is likely) and let them keep what they have now. Valefor...ahh > Valefor...who knows? But then agai, with Kronos, Baal, -and- Asmodeus > checking into that weird connection with the windies, we might actually get > an answer on that one. BTW, anyone ever notice how we'll all spell out 'Asmodeus' and 'Haagenti' but never seem to spell out 'Andrealphus'? We always use 'Andre', like we're pals or something...Makes you think, no? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:46:32 -0500 From: Lance Hunter Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) At 06:43 PM 9/29/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >Ben Glickler wrote: > > BTW, anyone ever notice how we'll all spell out 'Asmodeus' and 'Haagenti' >but never seem to spell out 'Andrealphus'? We always use 'Andre', like we're >pals or something...Makes you think, no? > >- Abracax: Shedite of Riots > > Andre, yea, I did 'im. (Sorry, but it had to be said...) - -- Lance Hunter "I knew in my heart by pure logic that any man who calls himself a religious leader and owns more than one suit is a hustler as long as there is someone in the world who has no suit at all." -Lenny Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:50:19 -0500 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) > On to the Really Big Question in my mind. Okay, Hell's in turmoil and > Heaven's bells are ringing. What about Humanity? A sizable percentage of > it has been conditioned through thousands of years of religion - Heavenly > inspired religion - to view Lucifer as The Ultimate Evil in all his > various guises, and now he's a good guy... I wouldn't see humanity having a problem....they probably wouldn't even know it had happened(Most humans are in the dark about the Symphony). Those who did know about it would likely get a real boost from the news...after all, everybody loves a winner...and what would show that Heaven is winning more than the Big Adversary swapping sides? Ben Chism ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:57:26 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: IN> Prayer I was just thinking of an interesting idea, sincere prayer causes a special kind of 'Disturbance'. It strikes a special chord in the Symphony, which can be picked up by celestials. However the sound is very subtle and soft (probably with a base of perception modified by how much selfless and sinscere the prayer is). Angels get -2 to detect it and Demons get -4 to detect it. Another idea was to have truly sincere prayer to cause a roll, just for intervention. In essence its the same thing, except only God and Lucifer can actually hear it. With the first option used angels can help mortals with problems they don't directly see (and diaboblicals can cause greater problems for them). With the second option used mortals can invoke the higher powers with their desperation, suggesting a special connection with said powers. Timothy, "Angel" of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:08:16 -0500 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer Repentant (was Saminga and the Lightbringer) > Is it really possible for the Lightbringer to redeem? Possible, yes Easy, no way in heck > Everyone makes Hell out to be in shambles after Lucifer leads, but is > this really true? Lucifer isn't THAT powerful, and rules from the > shadows. He keeps Hell divided against itself. If he left, what's to > stop a few of Hell's more militant Princes from toughening up the > lowerarchy? Imagine what Asmodeus, Kronos, and Baal could do > with Hell as the strongest organizers and control freaks... It goes back to the discussion about Lucifer's symphony making up lots of Hell...he's able to do lots of stuff none of the rest can....giving words...influencing the Real Symphony(remember the 666 roll...)..etc. It appears in IN canon that Lucifer is something above and beyond a demon Prince(I think it was said this will be expanded upon in the GMG...I can't wait!!) If Lucifer redeemed Hell would lose lots more than if a DP redeemed. On who would take over...I had another thought...who was the Second of the Fallen?? Perhaps if Lucifer Redeemed the powers he gained by being First of the Fallen would go to them by default..... > I also believe that if Lucifer redeems, Kobal would, at the very least, > go Renegade. He and Lucifer are two peas in the same pod. It's just > coincidence that Lucifer is the bigger pea. I like this....I really do...maybe it has something to do with Kobal's Big Joke and his special assignment from God(as others have mentioned)...Think of the damage it would cause Hell if both swapped sides. Kobal may not seem all that powerful, but think of the information he would have... Ben Chism P.S. all this talk about Lucifer dragged up something in my mind....God doesn't talk to the angels anymore(or very, very little)...maybe because Lucifer killed Metatron(Traditionally the Voice of God) P.P.S I was flipping through the IN main rulebook and noticed something....Check out Nybbas' write up(page 176 in the hardback)...the picture...notice anybody out of place on the TV monitors behind him??? ELI....what's his picture doing among the DP's?? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 19:58:30 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim > Which means you still Don't Get It. > > Malakim are not "naturally better at combat." They *make* themselves better > at combat. > > -David Ahh now I understand. I had never actually thought of it that way. I guess that's my inexperience as a GM and player showing throough Till next time Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:39:45 +0100 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf > Oh I agree with -that- 100%. I was just answering the question of if it > must be done. IN kinda kills the whole WoD idea o the Triat since IN posits, > you know, -God- at the top of the heap. Then there's that whole Saminga thing > about vampires. Making the invention of The Idiot Prince as powerful as > some Wordbound is kinda silly, after all. > > - Abracax: Shedite of Riots i don't know, you could maybe shoe-horn the Triat thing. weaver - heaven, wyrm - hell, wyld - the marches. the corporeal realm is gaia, the meeting place of the three. garou and the like work alongside the ethereal spirits, they could travel in and out of the marches in a manner similar to the umbra. vampires are wyrm-tainted because they are demonic creations. remember that even in VtM not everyone agrees that Caine is the founder, or that he's the guy out of the bible. in a crossover, he could just be the first vampire to have created by saminga. you could explain the whole gen thing by saying that elder vampires aren't automatically more powerful than neonates, they've just had a lot longer to build up their forces, songs, skills etc. liam malakite of calamite ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 23:31:44 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf > i don't know, you could maybe shoe-horn the Triat thing. weaver - heaven, > wyrm - hell, wyld - the marches. the corporeal realm is gaia, the meeting > place of the three. garou and the like work alongside the ethereal spirits, > they could travel in and out of the marches in a manner similar to the > umbra. vampires are wyrm-tainted because they are demonic creations. > remember that even in VtM not everyone agrees that Caine is the founder, or > that he's the guy out of the bible. in a crossover, he could just be the > first vampire to have created by saminga. you could explain the whole gen > thing by saying that elder vampires aren't automatically more powerful than > neonates, they've just had a lot longer to build up their forces, songs, > skills etc. > > liam > malakite of calamite > I agree wholeheartedly with this... I copuldn't have put it better myself ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:37:27 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Stopping Spammers On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Ashley wrote: > Added security may limit the spam but it might also limit ease of access to > the list, this could have consequences. As an MIB I do not want to hear > stuff from Joe Public about it being difficult to access SJ Games mailing > lists. Not only does it make my work more difficult, it gives a bad > impression. Just tell them to subscribe. I'm on 5 different mailing lists (yes, I'm a glutton for punishment), and this is the only one that allows non-subscribers to post. It's also the only one that has regular (as in so regular that I can set my watch by it) problems with companies spamming the list. I say restrict it to subscribers only. Richard Gant "It's Wednesday, and I haven't recieved a ponzi scheme offer yet. What's wrong?" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1344 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.