From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Oct 2 10:03:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12464 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:03:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA09803 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:00:44 -0500 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:00:44 -0500 Message-Id: <200010021500.KAA09803@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1836 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, October 2 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1836 In this digest: Fwd: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it... Re: IN> Artifact Question Fwd: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it... Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) IN> Rules clarification: Mercurian of Laurence Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Artifact Question Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> No books with me, curse it... Re: IN> No books with me, curse it... Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention ) IN> Updates (new stuff in the mix, too!) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 09:59:23 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it... >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 4 >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 01:45:09 -0700 >From: Sean McCarthy >Subject: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it... > >Our spies report that on 01:24 AM 9/30/00 -0700, Kish said: > > >>My impression is that Beleth's reason is, "Don't be u n s ubtle. If you >>need displays of celestial power to terrorize the humans, you're not >>fit to be my Servitor." > > My theory is that Beleth wants nightmares to be more horrible than >reality. Therefore, making reality itself more horrible is counter-productive. > >(It's not a very well thought out theory.) > >Sean > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 10:09:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question At 2:34 PM +1000 9/30/00, Shane Curtis wrote: >On 29 Sep 2000, 16:40, Tim Groth wrote: >> Nope. You can't bring Corporeal Artifacts "up", same with Ethereal >> ones. If you had a Celestial sword it would work with Will most >> likely. But you can't use corporeal items in the celestial realm, >> even if the item is an artifact. > >Hmm. Ok, so we can't bring objects/Artifacts "up", normally. So what all >can you bring "down" to the Ethereal and/or Corporeal? I have, UNOFFICIALLY, IMC, "celestial-only" artifacts. Like, say, clothing that you can put on your Lilim to make her only PG-13. It only appears on the celestial form, and has no physical or ethereal manifestation. (I also assume UNOFFCIALLY, IMC, that they are "Essence constructs" which are built by skilled Essence-artisans...) These are not referred to explicitly, but one suspects that all the structures and "foods" referred to in the various books are these sorts of items, which only have reality in celestial form and cannot affect anything ethereal or corporeal. If someone wanted a celestial-only weapon for combat (which could be kind of surprising to someone who assumed the character was unarmed), I might charge a single point -- sort of like a corporeal artifact costs a single point. If you drop it while you're in celform on the corporeal plane, hey, GM's option. Maybe it hangs there. Maybe it moves slowly away forever. Maybe it is linked with you and vanishes into "potentiality" or something when you go corporeal or ascend. Maybe it just _vanishes_, pop, into the Essence-aether... >Part two: from what I understand, celestial objects are material in the >ethereal realm (as much as anything is, anyway)? Most relics are -- a celestial-only object (which is to the celestial plane what mundane objects are to the corporeal plane) wouldn't, IMC. >On to part three: what are the manufacturing capabilities of Heaven/Hell? GM's option. It's kind of hinted at, but full numbers aren't given. Vapula has factory lines. Presumably Jean and Eli have specialized groups who do such things too. (Well, Jean might -- Eli has EVERYONE! But they're not really mass-production types.) If the trick of "Essence constructs" is the way it works, then maybe it's a common skill, or maybe it requires a special Song... >how are celestial objects created? See above. >Would a war for the Marches (or an assault on Heaven/Hell) really be >fought with flaming sword-analogues, or flaming high-tech military >hardware-analogues? GM's option. Laurencians might have the swords, while Michaelites had the rocket launchers... And then the crack team of Dreams Servitors and Jeanites, sent into the Far Marches on a secret mission, return in the Borg Cube... - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 10:21:06 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it... >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 8 >Date: 1 Oct 2000 01:41:06 -0000 >From: "-=|horsefly|=-" >Subject: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it... > >On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 01:24:46 -0700 Kish wrote: >>From: BillionSix@aol.com >><>Beleth's reason's ARE. It just seems a bit arbitrary, that's all. >>Like early D&D. Clerics can't use edged weapons, magic-users can only >>use daggers, Servitors of Dream can't use Celestial Songs in the >>Corporeal realm.>> >>My impression is that Beleth's reason is, "Don't be u n s ubtle. If you >>need displays of celestial power to terrorize the humans, you're not >>fit to be my Servitor." > yes, but really, how subtle is a Shedite in celestial form? it drives >humans freaking insane almost automatically. while that *does* serve Beleth's Word to some extent, it's hardly sophisticated, nor subtle. > my own thoughts on Dream's and Nightmares' forbiddance of celestial form >on earth (excluding Shedim, natch) stems from much the same reason as Khalid's motivation: don't give humans *evidence* of the celestial world or their dreamscapes become effectively worthless. > > -=|horsefly|=- > >God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 09:52:10 +0000 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) By the way, immutable history could still save both Raphael and Legion. We only know that, at the end of the battle, both are gone. If time-traveling servitors of Yves and Jean (or Kronos and Vapula) manage to sneak Raphael's (Legion's) last handful of Forces off the battlefield, without attracting attention, then there's no *observable* change to history.<<< So, do you think doing that would be worth a Distinction or promotion to Archangel or Demon Prince? I can just see it. Yves: "Well done Tretis! You saved Raphael and for that I feel that you should seek your Destiny in some other way." Tretis: "My Lord?" Yves: "Welcome to our ranks, Archangel of Time...." *grin* Just an interesting thought, although, I get the feeling that such a promotion would infringe on the sensibilities of some others... ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 09:52:10 +0000 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) By the way, immutable history could still save both Raphael and Legion. We only know that, at the end of the battle, both are gone. If time-traveling servitors of Yves and Jean (or Kronos and Vapula) manage to sneak Raphael's (Legion's) last handful of Forces off the battlefield, without attracting attention, then there's no *observable* change to history.<<< So, do you think doing that would be worth a Distinction or promotion to Archangel or Demon Prince? I can just see it. Yves: "Well done Tretis! You saved Raphael and for that I feel that you should seek your Destiny in some other way." Tretis: "My Lord?" Yves: "Welcome to our ranks, Archangel of Time...." *grin* Just an interesting thought, although, I get the feeling that such a promotion would infringe on the sensibilities of some others... ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 18:32 +0100 (BST) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: IN> Rules clarification: Mercurian of Laurence A Mercurian of Laurence gets his Corporeal Forces as a bonus to Dodge; I wondered if how that applied in Celestial combat. My referee - Rhodri James - reckons since it's playable if you just read the rule and apply it to Celestial combat, it isn't broken and there's no need to fix it. The character's quite happy about this; I wondered if anyone else had ever made a ruling on the issue? - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 18:32 +0100 (BST) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Charles E Smith wrote: > Yves: > "Welcome to our ranks, Archangel of Time...." Personally, I have a paranoid world-view (which I rejected as a campaign background) where "God" is in fact the Archangel of Time, and has re-arranged time to cover this up. I don't believe this for a moment, you understand... - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:14:16 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question > >On to part three: what are the manufacturing capabilities of Heaven/Hell? Well in H&H it says that Archangels and Demon Princes can simply reshape their domains. This would include creating buildings, raw materials and production facilities. 10 essence is about 1 character point, and since corporeal artifacts cost that much I'd suppose most items require that much to produce. > >how are celestial objects created? The Song of Creation is a good option. In conjunction with the ability of Superiors to simply will the celestial plane to change (which may just be a toned down performance of the Song of Creation). - -- Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus If you have time to kill, why not kill it at http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 12:35:43 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Charles E Smith wrote: > So, do you think doing that would be worth a Distinction or promotion to > Archangel or Demon Prince? I can just see it. Hell, on the other hand, would probably not thank any demon who rescued Legion ^_^ Cheers, Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 15:52:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Something like this is probably in the INC already, > but if not, feel free. Interesting. I came up with some Songs of Time for my campaign, but they worked differently. As I recall, I had the Corporeal Song accelerating or decelerating time (player's choice), the Ethereal Song allowing limited precognition and the Celestial Song doing stasis. I restricted the knowledge of all three versions to Yves and Kronos only, however. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 15:56:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) - --- Charles E Smith wrote: > You know, I was just thinking about something. This Song would enable > travel back 1000 years, right? Now, as I recall (not that I have the > books yet but what I gleamed from the online IN sites), there was a > lot > of activity back around 1000 C.E. I just could just see Yves creating > some young angel this year in 2000, arming him or her with the > Celestial > Song of Time, and then ordering them to travel back to....let's say > 1008 > C.E. when Raphael, the Archangel of Knowledge, gave her life against > the > then-Prince of Secrets. It might make an interesting campaign, having > this young angel of Destiny trying to go back in time and save > Raphael > (to speak nothing of the disturbance it would cause in the > present...). Ugh, good point. Being Celestial probably wouldn't make one immune to the Grandfather Paradox. A Song that created the possibility of violations of causality would, at the very least, cause massive Symphonic disturbance whenever it was played. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 15:59:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it... - --- Benjamin Acosta wrote: > If I were Vappie and was considering having Calabim servitors I'd try > to > create an attunement that "reverses the polarity" on their > attunement, > thus making them able to fix things. It certainly fits with the "if > I can > take it apart I can put back together" school of Technology. Hey... cool point for Ben! I like that idea. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 16:01:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it... - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > > If I were Vappie and was considering having Calabim servitors > > I'd try to create an attunement that "reverses the polarity" on > > their attunement, thus making them able to fix things. It > > certainly fits with the "if I can take it apart I can put back > > together" school of Technology. [snip] > Or make them heavily ethereal and have them destroy ideas by > criticism and analysis -- demons of nitpicking. (They'd look > just as scruffy as other Calabim, but in a weedier, nerdier vein.) Heh heh... fickle me. I like this one even better (sorry, Ben!). ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) - --- Tim Groth wrote: > >This brings up the fundamental choice you have to make whenever > >you introduce time travel: Is the past mutable or not? > >Mutable is fun, but hard to keep straight, and can require a LOT > >of fast thinking on your feet. Amen to that. I've done time travel in other game systems, and it's not pretty (from a GM'ing standpoint) when somebody does something that generates a paradox. > I prefer mutable history usually, but with lots of ripples being sent > out from minor changes. The farther back you go the more your mere > presence causes changes. I haven't done any time travel in IN yet, > but I think it would be fun. Especially with disturbance just coming > out of nowhere as a result of the celestials presence. > Also about immutable history I never liked the surface only > requirement. Immutable is immutable. If you can change things as > long as they're within certain limits then its resistant history, but > not immutable. I prefer immutable history -- with mutable PC knowledge. The way I usually run it, time travel is possible but causality violations are not. The only way to do this is a) for time travelers to be observers only; they can look but not touch, or b) for the actions of the time travelers to incorporate themselves into the known timeline; they can participate in history but not change it. In this second view, the PC's actions in the past may even be necessary in order for the history that they know to occur. Now, wouldn't it be a cruel (insert maniacal laugh here) twist of fate if Raphael's death could've been avoided if not for the screw-ups of PC angels? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 00:09:49 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) It might amuse some to know that there's a sourcebook for the INS/MV game with several time travel adventures. In them, the general assumption is that the actions of the PCs end up making history what it is, and it's very unlikely that the PCs will actively change history (though possible in one case). As to how it's done -- Jean has a time machine or two (partly based on knowledge given him by Yves) and Kronos is capable of sending demons back in time. (Actually, the described ritual is "he draws a pentacle, spends two hours reading Kant, then tells the PCs to enter the pentacle, and they are sent back in time", but hey.) In one of the adventures (involving a demonic attempt to assassinate and replace Joan of Arc) God himself may temporarily interfere and rewind matters if the PCs manage to screw it up totally, forcing time back to "the beginning of the final encounter". In the big demonic one, set on the eve of the last big battle of the Purity Crusade, where the PCs have been sent to try and recruit some of the "ethereal" forces into allying with Hell under the pretence of a historical study mission, whatever the PCs end up causing will probably end up being received history, as they've likely never been told what actually happened then. And in the big angelic one . . . How _shall_ I put it. Several angels of Daniel (David) and Laurence were getting drunk together, while being on guard over Jean's latest time machine. In a spurt of alcoholic enthusiasm, they have decided that Jesus shouldn't have been crucified, and have gone back to stop it. The PCs are hastily bundled into Jean's spare time machine, and sent back to make sure things go according to schedule -- they need to talk Judas into betraying Jesus (the drunk angels intimidated him into keeping his mouth shut), make sure the mob yells to crucify Jesus, and, most importantly -- the drunk angels are very disappointed with Jesus when they meet him, and decide to drown him instead, and if the PCs don't make sure the crucifixion goes ahead on schedule, their Archangels will be very annoyed when they return, as drowning isn't half as good a media symbol . . . Genevieve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 16:30:14 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Why does their game always sound so much cooler than our game? Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 16:31:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) - --- Genevieve Cogman wrote: > It might amuse some to know that there's a sourcebook for the INS/MV > game > with several time travel adventures. In them, the general assumption > is that > the actions of the PCs end up making history what it is, and it's > very > unlikely that the PCs will actively change history. Sounds like something I would've said. o;;;> As to the rest, I can see by your account of the angelic time travel adventure that the writers on INS/MV are a litter of really sick puppies. My admiration for them grows once again. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 20:37:47 -0400 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention ) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 11:24 AM -0700 9/29/00, Maurice Lane wrote: > > So, any suggestions? :) > > GURPS Timetravel. No, really -- it addresses a lot of concerns > about mutable/immutable/limitedly mutable time travel. And IIRC, > John M. Ford is a co-author. I -really- like the RPG Continuum. It's a time travel game where the authors *don't flinch* -- all the stupid time traveller tricks are possible in that game: you can meet yourself, make a fortune on the stock market, retroactively learning new skills, and so on. Of course, you've got to love any game where the PC's to-do list can include items like "Go to Chicago, 1936 and get killed by Al Capone" and the PC continues adventuring after that happens. :) IMO it was the best new RPG of the last year. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 21:40:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Updates (new stuff in the mix, too!) A bit meager this time around: I've been sick. My latest Heretic will be just a bit longer, alas. Anyway, aside from the Songs of Time and my Calabite buster, there's two new things. First, my entry in the Great Minor Choir/Band review (Belial's): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/choirsbands/Lahatim.htm and a little someone I tossed together when I was feeling particularly weird: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/servitors/Bronwen.htm Yeah, yeah, I know: she's a tad odd, and more plausable at either end of the scale than in the middle. Such is life. :) As always, feel free to comment or flense. :) Moe PS: You will note that I'm including backlinks now. All new stuff will have them, the main pages will get them as I update, and all old stuff will get them as I edit them Real Soon Now. Sloppy of me, but what I have to do to get stuff posted is a real pain in the nether regions at the moment. :| ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 21:57:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:01:06 -0500From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) >Good Songs. Would people be interested in a re-post >of Othniel, Angel of Time, and his Songs, for >purposes of comparison? >Earl Well, _I_ would (or at least the digest# in which it appears). Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 22:03:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:42:49 GMT From: "Daniel Gallagher" Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) >>Corporeal (Song of Stasis) - This Song permits the >>caster to temporarily isolate someone or something >>(up to 200 lbs.) on the corporeal plane from the >>flow of Time. >Good songs, I'd up the limit to 350lbs for the >corporeal one though. Hmmm. The actual weight limit for the Corporeal Song can be fiddled with, of course (I picked 200lb because I wanted to cut down on casual transportation of others via the Celestial Song, and wanted to use pretty much the same tables for the Corporeal and Celestial), but I'm curious why that particular number. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 09:55:06 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Moe wrote: > >There's this thing DEATH does all the time in MORT, > >the Discworld novel. It freezes the scenary, and only > >the user and a few designated people are > >experiencing a time flow. > > Doesn't ring any bells. Something like the above > would be interesting, but .... Basically, in IN terms, it would look a bit like: this Song allows the user to freeze time for what should have been minutes. Only the user and designated targets are immune to the effect. The Song requires 1 Essence to start and 1 additional Essence for every additional target. The Disturbance created is the CD. This Song is very convenient to disarm a foe or move a target out of harm's way, but Disturbance can be added from these "unexpected" events. Michael wrote: > I came up with some Songs of Time for my campaign, but > they worked differently. As I recall, I had the Corporeal Song > accelerating or decelerating time (player's choice), the Ethereal Song > allowing limited precognition and the Celestial Song doing stasis. I > restricted the knowledge of all three versions to Yves and Kronos only, however. I'd love to see them. Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:13:15 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) > Good Songs. Would people be interested in a re-post of > Othniel, Angel of Time, and his Songs, for purposes of > comparison? > > Earl Would be. VERY interested. Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 10:58:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel Here is Othniel, Angel of Time, and its list of Songs. In particular, I draw your attention to Anticipation and Foreknowledge, which were designed to be ways to make precognition playable. Earl - ---- Othniel, Angel of Time Elohite Servitor of Destiny Stats: Take an Elohite of Destiny and max it out. Othniel has all possible attunements and distinctions of Destiny, and every song that is not infernal and lost or secret. Long ago, Othniel was offered Archangel status by the Seraphim Council, but declined it. It is enormously old, having been created at the Beginning, shortly after Yves, Michael, Lucifer, and the other primal angels. It got its Word very early, too. It has always been a loyal servitor of Yves, and one reason it declined Archangel status was to avoid Word-friction with its boss. Another, deeper, reason was that it knew being an Archangel would throw it into much more contact with the Host in general and the Seraphim Council in particular -- and serving its Word requires a lot of descretion, not to say secrecy. As Archangel of Destiny, Yves knows ALL the POSSIBLE futures. As Angel of Time, Othniel knows SOME of the ACTUAL future, and is the patron of time-*travel*. In addition to the wide range of songs mentioned above, Othniel has -- Othniel invented -- various Songs of Time-Travel. These he teaches to some of his servitors, mostly old and powerful Ophanim. Introduce time-travel and you immediately have decisions to make, chiefly about maleability of history and handling paradoxes. Othniel is designed for a system in which history is rigid and cannot be changed. (Does this mean Othniel is designed for a system without free will? An interesting philosophical question. Othniel and I would say no.) If history is rigid, you get what GURPS Time Travel calls, I believe, "Observer Effect" and what our campaign (and the book "Time Riders," which I wrote for Iron Crown) calls "timelock." Timelock is the bad luck that happens to you if you try to do something that would change the past. Try to shoot your own infant self, and your gun will jam, or the Time Patrol will catch you, or you'll off the twin brother you never knew you had, or some such event. It is part of Othniel's job to protect the Host from timelock. This, plus more conventional security reasons, is why he works secretly so much of the time. Anyone he moves back through time -- either going on a mission into the past or returning from a mission into the future -- works in treble secrecy, not only from the mortals and the infernals, as is usual, but from most of the rest of the Host as well. Othniel is the reverse of a public figure, and most of the Host do not know it exists. Othniel has no single opposite number in the ranks of Kronos, but the Demon Prince makes occasional use of time-travel. He has developed his own versions of time-travel Songs and seems to project his agents through time himself, rather than teaching any of them these Songs. Songs of Othniel: Each song comes in Celestial, Ethereal, and Corporeal versions, usable only in their respective realms. Presto -- cost 2, disturbance 2. Lets the target character operate at three times normal speed for a number of minutes equal to the singer's Celestial Forces. Largo -- cost 2, disturbance 2. Makes the target character operate at one third normal speed for a number of minutes equal to the singer's Celestial Forces. Fermata -- cost 3, disturbance 3. Throws the target into stasis for a number of hours equal to the singer's Celestial Forces. Target may be a character or, in the Corporeal version of the Song, a region with a volume, in cubic yards, equal to the singer's Corporeal Forces. Da Capo -- cost 4, disturbance 4. Makes objects in the target region age backwards for a number of minutes equal to the singer's Celestial Forces. The region has a volume, in cubic yards, equal to the singer's Corporeal Forces. If things move in and out of the region during the Song, the Song tends to seek out substitutes if the originals are not available. Light and air are no problem, but a pebble, for instance, might substitute for a bullet. If bystanders interfere in the reversal process, it may back up to a state other than the original one. Characters caught in the effect may try to resist with a Will roll. Processional -- cost 3, disturbance 10. Being immortal, most angels can move into the future by the simple process of waiting, and even for Othniel this is the preferred mode. But when it won't do, Processional moves the singer, plus as much cargo as they can personally carry, to a specified point in the future. If the specification is vague, the singer is moved a minimum distance or to wherever the GM finds amusing. Because this Song is so "loud" in terms of disturbance, Othniel and its servitors prefer to use it in Heaven, then descend to the Corporeal realm, rather than make noise on Earth. The Marches are the second choice. Recessional -- cost 5, disturbance 20. The true song of time-travel, it works just like Processional, but casts the singer and cargo backward in time. Anticipation -- cost 1, disturbance 1. Gives the singer just enough precognition to dodge a coming blow or bullet. (Cf. "Passive defense" in GURPS Celtic Myth.) The effect lasts for a number of minutes equal to the Celestial Forces of the singer. Foreknowledge -- cost 1, disturbance 0. Lets the singer "just happen" to be prepared for otherwise unforeseeable developments, a number of times equal to the check digit, over a number of hours equal to the Singer's Celestial Forces. Examples: You need to pick a lock, and "fortunately" happened to bring the tools with you. You need to know the name of Alister Crowley's mistress and "happen" to have read that information yesterday. (Note that the Song starts taking effect before it is sung....) In effect, it lets the player write minor additions to the otherwise-unspecified back-story. Retrospection -- cost 1, disturbance 0. Gives the singer a few seconds of clairvoyant vision of past activities of the object or in the place where the Song is sung. The Song tends to pick out moments of high drama, spiritual crisis, violence, and Essence expenditure, and tends to show the most recent one unless you deliberately "aim" further back. (So it might require several performances to extract the whole history of a place or object.) Rites: Set a timepiece to the exact local time, within 0.1 seconds. (1 essence) Do someone a favor that saves them an hour or more of time. (2 essence) - --- Othniel and its servitors can be used as celestial "Time Lords" to move modern PCs into historical or futuristic settings, or to play tricks on the PCs with temporal effects. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1836 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.